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Class balance post-tenacity in 1v1 scenario
keltz0r
Member Posts: 85
Here are my thoughts on the topic: I play tr/cw/gwf and know how the other classes work aswell, and ive been active in the "pvp community" since the server merge in october and have played countless premades (and pugs) and 1v1s against every class on all of my classes and watched ones between the classes i dont play. My opinions here are based on the "high lvl pvp" of this game, what happens when the very best of two classes go against each other. This also means that most of the builds im talking about here are "fotm" builds as they are the most effective in current domination pvp. FoTM builds example: recovery based itc/ss TR and sent IV GWF. All of these 1v1 scenarios are on a NODE, which is the key to pvp at the moment. Of course ranged classes have some advantage if their team has the point capped to safely nuke away from a distance but im not taking that into account here.
GWF: formerly the most OP class by far, but with tenacity since gwfs relied on regening like a HAMSTER to survive, they are not even close to as sustainable as they used to be. GWF is fairly balanced in 1v1 situations now and can die to a cw/hr/tr but will also kill them if they get enough crits. Hardest time the GWF has against a TR now, because if they cant kill the TR fast enough their hp will be withered down to a point where they will die to a shocking crit, and even if it doesnt crit they will still be low and it will be very hard for them to recover anymore. Imo gwf is not OP anymore, only threatening rush is still unbalanced and if that is made to have a say 3 second cooldown or have charges it will be balanced.
TR: probably the best class in pvp atm, due to their ability to stay in steath/itc and not taking much damage to begin with and can steadily kill their opponents with flurry and potb/impact shot and hold points effectively. Not to mention shocking which is clearly OP now, imo it should be affected by tenacity and then it would be balanced, but still insanely good. TRs will usually kill most classes except a rly good HR gives TR the most problems and they will kill the TR more often than die. Of course a cw/gwf or even gf will kill the TR occasionally if the TR makes a mistake though. A drawback with playing TR is that the 1v1s usually take pretty long against any class since the best TR builds now have no real burst damage, this gives help time to arrive (unless the target is 60% or lower, this is where shocking comes in
. Contrary to popular belief TR can NOT reliably escape healing depression by going into stealth, 10 seconds is just too long and any stray hit or dot damage will reset the timer.
CW: the best cw builds now are very tanky with even 38k hp and still capable of doing crazy burst damage with shard combos. CW will generally lose a 1v1 more often than win vs almost any class (except maybe a gf) but if they manage to survive long enough and get some damage in they can kill any class. CWs were and are still a very good support class and a cw and any other gwf/hr/cw will destroy anything in seconds.
HR: excels in a 1v1 situation where fox shift damage isnt spread between targets and will usually beat a TR, can kill or die vs a cw/gwf.
GF: even though they got buffed they still need some love and will generally lose to any class 1v1 but occasionally kill too with some crits. They are like a weaker version of GWFs with block that isnt a match for 20% lower crit chance, unstoppable and sprint.
DC: first of all, if you die to a dc 1v1 no matter your class you should uninstall the game. DC is still very tanky but will eventually die to gwf/cw/tr when they get a few good crit rotations (or shocking). Imo healing depression should affect dc heals by only 20-30% and righteousness should be reduced. They can still be very useful but definitely need some buffs.
I know this post is long as shet but i wanted to write my opinion on class balance here since theres been some whining going on (like people calling cws the most OP class now, wat). Overall i think the class balance with tenacity is very good and although threatening rush and shocking need to be nerfed a bit and gfs and dcs need a buff the game is in a pretty good situation right now. There is no class that just kills everything 1v1 or is a must have in a party. Rock paper scissors is how it should be, and its looking pretty good now.
I prefer tenacity to the way it was before.
GWF: formerly the most OP class by far, but with tenacity since gwfs relied on regening like a HAMSTER to survive, they are not even close to as sustainable as they used to be. GWF is fairly balanced in 1v1 situations now and can die to a cw/hr/tr but will also kill them if they get enough crits. Hardest time the GWF has against a TR now, because if they cant kill the TR fast enough their hp will be withered down to a point where they will die to a shocking crit, and even if it doesnt crit they will still be low and it will be very hard for them to recover anymore. Imo gwf is not OP anymore, only threatening rush is still unbalanced and if that is made to have a say 3 second cooldown or have charges it will be balanced.
TR: probably the best class in pvp atm, due to their ability to stay in steath/itc and not taking much damage to begin with and can steadily kill their opponents with flurry and potb/impact shot and hold points effectively. Not to mention shocking which is clearly OP now, imo it should be affected by tenacity and then it would be balanced, but still insanely good. TRs will usually kill most classes except a rly good HR gives TR the most problems and they will kill the TR more often than die. Of course a cw/gwf or even gf will kill the TR occasionally if the TR makes a mistake though. A drawback with playing TR is that the 1v1s usually take pretty long against any class since the best TR builds now have no real burst damage, this gives help time to arrive (unless the target is 60% or lower, this is where shocking comes in
. Contrary to popular belief TR can NOT reliably escape healing depression by going into stealth, 10 seconds is just too long and any stray hit or dot damage will reset the timer.CW: the best cw builds now are very tanky with even 38k hp and still capable of doing crazy burst damage with shard combos. CW will generally lose a 1v1 more often than win vs almost any class (except maybe a gf) but if they manage to survive long enough and get some damage in they can kill any class. CWs were and are still a very good support class and a cw and any other gwf/hr/cw will destroy anything in seconds.
HR: excels in a 1v1 situation where fox shift damage isnt spread between targets and will usually beat a TR, can kill or die vs a cw/gwf.
GF: even though they got buffed they still need some love and will generally lose to any class 1v1 but occasionally kill too with some crits. They are like a weaker version of GWFs with block that isnt a match for 20% lower crit chance, unstoppable and sprint.
DC: first of all, if you die to a dc 1v1 no matter your class you should uninstall the game. DC is still very tanky but will eventually die to gwf/cw/tr when they get a few good crit rotations (or shocking). Imo healing depression should affect dc heals by only 20-30% and righteousness should be reduced. They can still be very useful but definitely need some buffs.
I know this post is long as shet but i wanted to write my opinion on class balance here since theres been some whining going on (like people calling cws the most OP class now, wat). Overall i think the class balance with tenacity is very good and although threatening rush and shocking need to be nerfed a bit and gfs and dcs need a buff the game is in a pretty good situation right now. There is no class that just kills everything 1v1 or is a must have in a party. Rock paper scissors is how it should be, and its looking pretty good now.
I prefer tenacity to the way it was before.
No longer playing NW
Post edited by keltz0r on
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Comments
That having been said, I agree with your conclusion that overall class balance has improved with tenacity.
Agreed. Agreed. Agreed. Agreed.
TRs shocking is not balanced, its ****ed
I agree the ITC perma TR is a bit much (and I choose not to play mine that way, it's too cheese) and I disagree that the GWF is now balanced. But I'm looking more from a team game perspective where they are still beasts.
Since the patch I've noticed the dynamics of pvp slowly shifting as more and more folks are gearing up with tenacity gear. I'm looking forwards to the matchmaking starting to really kick in. We need that to happen before much analysis can be done, since most fights are not 1v1 by people with the highest gear scores with FoTM builds.
Good analysis. I definitely agree with all your points. (Especially the bit about DCs...)
Quick note: Emblems on a DC only heal them ~200 per hit instead of ~400, as for every other class. There is really no good justification for this difference.
I feel that comparing 1v1 is a great way to flesh things out.
In a match there is almost always a 1v1 going on at one of the points.
EDIT: Also, situations other than 1v1 are usually determined by the coordination and skill of each team, not how powerful/weak the classes in question are.
Great feedback.
Cryptic please read this. The OP has painted a very clear picture of what happens AT THE TOP END of pvp
And it will be ignored like all other feedback.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Haha! Pretty much. They also played more than 2 matches.
..did this guy just say "L2P" to keltz0r ???
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
That's how you know immediately that their opinion on PvP is pretty questionable. 1v1s are important in PvP, especially for TRs and GWFs. As a previous poster noted, 1v1s are commons in games. Generally at least one player in a match will be engaged in a 1v1, and being able to win that is important. It's obviously not the end-all of a PvP game, but they should not be dismissed. And I don't think Keltz0r was speaking only about 1v1s, except for the relevant classes.
This that 1000 people do something wrong and few other do not, doesn't mean that all must follow this 1000 people.
A same gs GF against same gs classes in 1vs1 should be killed only by Sent GWF and occasionally TR.Especcialy as the gs keeps low.
Conq GWf and all other classes are helpless in 1v1 AFTER TENACITY patch..It may take forever but the GF will finally outlast them cause block and bigger hp pool.
Most people have this opinion cause GF are so slow to kill the opponent that in pvp 1v1 with GF never happens.At some time a second member of the opposite team will come out and it will be 2 vs 1.GF is dead. 99% of all deaths of GFs are 2vs 1.
"They are like a weaker version of GWFs with block that isnt a match for 20% lower crit chance, unstoppable and sprint. "
Agree.
We're surprised that you don't mention that Unstoppable is not usable anymore, that is the gwf dies before his bar is full enough to get Unstoppable (even the 50% bar version)
Tired of Dailies/Tyranny of Dailies/Timers of Doom/Tricked Or Duped/Tremendously Obnoxious Dailies/Try Otherwise, Devs
We have 3 Capstone and 2 ways that follow to them = so we have not only 1 strategy to get them. GL & HF with 1vs1 in any MMO and crying for 'balance'.