TR - Stealth questions

azhrarn23 · February 2014

hi, just a couple of questions I really hope that a developer will answer to that:

- why the bristle spider are not influenced by stealth?

- why the knight commander are not influenced by stealth?

- why the adds continue to attack the TRs for few seconds when they activate the stealth?

if this ability is very diffucult to manage for the developers is not better to change it with something else that really work? the most part of the time it doesn't work properly: if the team are around me the adds attack me also if I'm stealthed... the bosses totally ignore the stealth... for other classes the abilities are not so broken, maybe is better fix somethings??

todesfaelle · February 2014

Hi, you're probably a new player. I'm no dev but I hope my answers are enough for you.

1. Bristle Spiders have an auto-target attack against enemies with the highest threat. Our threat remains while we are in Stealth, although we cannot be targeted. Some mobs have defensive mechanisms against Stealth, one of which is spamming AoE's. Some will spam in random directions, but there will be those, like the Bristle Spider, that will target your "position", and not exactly you. Another good example of an enemy that has an auto-target attack is the Drider in Temple of the Spider. They can't see us, but they will use attacks that home in on our position. In order to know which mobs can't see you and which mobs can't, you'll see purple question marks on their head on the ones that can't. The ones that do will not have them.

2. This is the Dread Ring's Knight Commander, right? He is actually influenced by Stealth like all the lair bosses in Dread Ring. But like I explained in number 1, some monsters will have a mechanism to defend against Stealth, and this most usually comes in the form of AoE's. Sometimes they will also use attacks that require no targets, and they will land lucky shots at you simply by AI's guessing where you are. But it doesn't mean that they can target you. They're just using attacks that require no target.

3. That's your latency, friend.

4. Some bosses will not ignore Stealth, and some do. You'll have to experience more in order to find out which bosses can see you and which can't.

This ability is working as intended right now. If you don't like how it is currently and would rather play something with an easier learning curve, go for a GWF. You won't regret playing a GWF. They're in a good position right now in the game.

pitshade · February 2014

Additionally, if a mob is preparing an attack against you when you enter stealth, it doesn't cancel. If you run up to a group of redcaps and a witherer targets you before you go into steath, the attack is still going to hit. The targeting is the important part and it's already taken place. This can also take place if you get into threat range but go into stealth before the mob aggros. The Dread Ring servitors are bad for this. You approach and they go into threat stance. You stealth and attack, then get hit with their thrown daggers. They know someone is there so when they aggro they launch the attack - which is actually a giant AOE and not a targeted attack. It will hit anyone and anything in range, regardless of stealth, and that range is larger than their threat radius.

If you want to use stealth to take no damage, you have to go into stealth before they go to their combat stance, not just before they aggro. If you stealth while they're in combat stance or actually fighting you, they will react more aggressively than if you are never seen at all.

kweassa · February 2014

There are also some mobs which show curious behavior.

Thayans in the Dread Ring, sometimes react normal to stealth and do not attack. However other times, they target you and fling knives even if you've specifically entered stealth first, before going into aggro range.

pitshade · February 2014

My MI uses Banelorne's build and I've never had them throw daggers when I was permanently in stealth while approaching them. Even so, I learned to keep Tenacious Concealment slotted when in DR.

reiwulf · February 2014

kweassa, I agree sometimes they attack me even if I entered stealth much before aggroing them. some other times they don't though.

todesfaelle · February 2014

Oh, you mean the Zealots? That attack of theirs requires no target and is considered as an AoE. If you guys are together with other players, you'll notice that even if they're not looking at you, as long as they're doing that animation where they fling knives, you will get hit. It seems to be a special sort of AoE as it has a pretty large radius. Mobs tend to spam those types of AoE attacks that require no targets whenever a Stealthed individual is around.

pitshade · February 2014

If you have a non-augment companion, you'll get hit by that attack even if you are completely undetected, though I think it's only in their front facing. I've had plenty of times when my character was on the map riding around and another character aggroed them. I got hit by daggers yet wasn't even considered to be in combat. I don't know what the radius is, since there isn't a splat to measure, but I think it's a cone and the length is far greater than their aggro range. It's actually one of my pet peeves about Dread Ring, albeit a fairly minor one.

But insofar as I can remember, they won't do it if they haven't actually seen or someone else. That's just based on my memory, but I've run in stealth doing a complete clear of PF and never once taken damage.

anymras · February 2014

I've noticed that the Thayan Servitors often knife me even when I've entered stealth outside aggro range and then ran in.
Mildly annoying, usually it just cuts my stealth duration short.

Other than that, pretty much what Todesfaelle says.

kweassa · February 2014

anymras wrote: »

I've noticed that the Thayan Servitors often knife me even when I've entered stealth outside aggro range and then ran in.
Mildly annoying, usually it just cuts my stealth duration short.

Other than that, pretty much what Todesfaelle says.

Some mobs do 'react to stealth', but IMO it seems more like an internal power-queueing process/behavior rather than true anti-stealth attempt...

* Many mobs will never react to your attacks if you have entered stealth before combat initiated, but react and try fire off a few powers when you go into stealth in front of their eyes during combat (which, afterwards, they will not react further) This is most probably the process of power queueing I've mentioned above.

* Also, some mobs do have an "initial reaction" on combat initiation regardless of stealth -- like those burning rocky thingies the Thayan evokers larry around.. as well as the evokers themselves.. if into combat they just simply use a certain sequence of AoE powers whether you are visible or not.

Now, I've never assumed that the knife-throwing powers servitors were using were AoE.. by the looks of it I thought it was simply a targeted/ranged power. If it is indeed an AoE, it must be one of those cylinderic AoEs like GWFs use. That would make sense.

(although, there is another mystery.. sometimes these Servitors don't react at all, if you go into stealth and approach from behind... maybe the AI is programmed to initiate the AoE power activation response when it detects something within the area of effect regardless of it is targetable or not..??)

azhrarn23 · February 2014

I'm not new...I play to NW since to the beta and I have a permaTR so all my question can be refered to situations were I'm permastealthed:
the mobs attack me also if I never "show me".
I was referring to the knigh commander in CN... they don't spam their AOE if I'm not close to them so my stealth is useless...
if some mobs can actually target "my position" (what is the difference between "target me"?)so they ignore my "rogue special ability", i have to suppose that, in the same way, some mobs ignore the GF shield? or they can ignore the "switch bonus" of the HR?
I would like understand if this "ignore ability" is balanced across all classes or it is a simple nerf for TRs because of the dev cannot balance the stalth in other ways... and in that case I come back to my first post: " is not better to change it with something else that really work?"

Still from my first post: I'm fighting with mobs permastealthed no one attack me, if a member of my team arrive close to me all mobs attack me like if I'm not stealthed at all (to test this situation you can use the redolent surgeon in PK)

todesfaelle · February 2014

Wow... god. Sorry, I'm more surprised that you've been playing since beta but have yet to adapt your play style to the unintelligent and predictable AI of the mobs. And it took you this long to complain. We have arguably the most powerful class mechanic in the game. None of the other class mechanics in the game can compare to our Stealth, so some mobs seeing through our Stealth is a good way to counteract the power of our mechanic.

Like I said in my previous reply, if you want to have it easy, play a GWF. Easy mode at its best. Stealth is okay as it is and it could still be possibly nerfed so please prepare to shelf your TR when it happens while those who bothered to learn how to play the class keep playing it.

beckylunatic · February 2014

The Knight Commander is definitely my least favorite of the Dread Ring bosses to fight with a stealth TR because his major attacks are untargetted AoE that he'll use just because he's taking damage. He's very skilled at making me blow half of my LA duration, heh. You want to stay out of range of the move where he stabs the ground and knocks back (it's great though if you can drop your dummy into it... as long as you're not in LA and thus not gaining AP). When he does the one where he gets behind his shield, the ground in front of him turns all red, and he tries to channel a heal, you need to get behind him and hit him with an interrupt... most simple and effective is if Shadow Strike is available right then, even if you don't need the stealth refill. This does tend to result in my needing to use Smoke Bomb and run around frantically until SS is available again before I can continue with attacks, but it's better than letting him heal.

All NW spiders have AI that makes them try to attack even if they can't see what's hurting them, so you don't want to be in front of them if you can avoid it (especially tricky with phase spiders). They'll also try to surround an opponent (at least a visible one, something I notice to a great degree playing an HR). I'd say spiders run one of the more intelligent AIs available. Bristle spiders are pretty squishy, so just dodge the big red circle and flank them. They don't even move around much, making all their other attacks really easy to avoid without dodges.

And it's not really that all mobs attack you in stealth when you have a party member on the scene, but that they start using attacks against your allies which are also capable of hitting you. It's why a stealth-based TR cannot solo in total safety using any companion other than an augment, why B&S needs to be used very strategically against some critters, and why one *has to* adapt their playstyle to complement a non-stealth-based party while grouped up. A group composed entirely of stealth TRs can keep doing what they always do, but a stealth TR in a mixed party functions as a standard TR with an additional layer of security against boss wipes (as long as you can avoid enough red to be the last one standing in that situation and not the first on down).

pitshade · February 2014

You don't need an interrupt to stop the Knight Commander's block attack. Any attack from his rear facing will work. For a lot of my characters, I use the time when he's channeling to kill the adds or let my encounters cooldown then use an atwill on him from behind. An actual interrupt (even the Dire Wolf active proccing) will still disrupt him from any facing, but it's easier to just move behind him and use an atwill - pretty much anything from any class has worked for me.

beckylunatic · February 2014

You know, because I do run with the dire wolf in an active slot all the time, I've always thought the interrupt was needed because of seeing it proc (which it does often).

If only one of interrupt or flanking is needed, not both, then this fight just got a whole lot easier for me.

pitshade · February 2014

Just make sure you're actually behind him. His sides don't count, or it's trickier to judge at least.

kweassa · February 2014

...at this point, I've actually realized that I don't know what happens if you stay in front of the Knight-commander when he's using that huge block motion. It's so obviously screams of "scoot and attack him from behind!!" that up to this day, I've never been in front of him when he plants that shield down.

What happens if you just stay in front of him??

pitshade · March 2014

He slowly heals himself, though from what I've seen it's nothing to worry about. When the attack goes off, it's just a big AOE. There may be some CC involved, probably proning but I can't remember. As you say, it's so awfully easy to ignore.

enjya · March 2014

in my opinion stealth works fine since its fun to kill bosses solo when they see you :P and not just stand there waiting to get owned also i dont see the point of killing all mobs in stealth while going solo since u can just run past them or just kill key mobs that need to be killed to open doors and the rest just pull far away. Either way even if u need to kill a mob and he can target u i dont see anything hard in hes casting of 1-2 skills per 10 sek i can even eat in the meantime. And now stealth in party yes its weird that i can tank a boss (have biggest agro) in 5 man pt while in permastealth but well in those sitiuations its just a dps boost for me.

beckylunatic - i would like to correct u since whole pt of permastealth tr doesnt work like in solo. I have tested this on few bosses and it works for first tr on boss with stealth all others regardless of being in stealth are targetable by boss, he just goes to them and kills them like any other without stealth. I have tested this on 3 first bosses of CN but its fine on 2nd boss since he can see u.

if i said something untrue then correct me since i am new here

TR - Stealth questions

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