It's not diversity you want. You want everything the same so why even have the classes with builds you can make yourself? If your looking for that then you want one class with one set abilities and not being able to change anything to your style. Like WOW or Everquest simple one class you pick no abilities everyone is the same. Wouldn't that be boring? Like football if every team was the same and couldn't get better players to improve the teams it would be boring and no one will watch. I have read allot on these boards there are allot of stronger classes then the TR so why nerf them more?
Okay. I'm not so sure where the diversity is when a specific build is being requested to be made impossible to play. Stealth builds are popular because people who made them took the time to inform other people of their discoveries in a systematic and organized manner; guides. Diversity starts with information. If people want diversity, make guides about your unique and efficient builds. Spreading knowledge is what makes diversity, not hoarding them and letting people remain in a state of being uninformed. Builds, please guys, post more. Take the time to help our small and dwindling community in a positive way.
And like I keep saying in my previous posts, the people playing with Stealth builds in PVP is a reaction against the current CC meta in PVP. Players desire to be effective, and to contribute to the team instead of being a permadead rogue. We have no CC's as effective as the ones we see from other classes who are able to dish out immense damage while still afflicting the opponent with CC (GWF/GF/CW/HR), but what we do have are ways to prevent, negate, and escape them. This is what Stealth-based builds are; a response to this broken meta, where the first one to pop the CC chain more often than not wins simply because we could not react. We will not stand to be chain CC-ed and team ganked because we have no efficient ways to deal the same CC as the other CC heavy classes. Our builds are going against the meta, and this is what's antagonizing players. CC-reliant players realize how they do not have things easy anymore when up against builds that negate how they built their characters. Stealth robs the CC-heavy classes of their 100% chance of CC-ing us because we are prolonging our ability to remain un-target-able, but people are forgetting that we can still be hit AND CC-ed when we are in Stealth, and this is when we are MOST vulnerable. This is where the problem starts for our opponents, the initial reaction is to fear what they cannot see. For those that do realize our vulnerability in Stealth, the problem then will be getting close to us, finding our silhouettes and landing the target reticule on us for a CC hit. Some TR's will be easy to find, some TR's won't, because they know their rogue stuff; and this is where skill comes into play. When your chain CC's are taken away from you, how exactly are you going to deal with it? Because it's EASY to take away our Stealth. Damage depletes it. It's also easy to send us to the grave once we're lying on the ground prone, frozen, choked or whatever; so let us take something away from CC classes as well, which is their probability, uptime and efficiency of landing it. Our class was designed to make it hard for them to faceroll those CC's and get easy kills.
But this begs the question, is there any other viable way to play the rogue? The answer is, of course! People can still play this class in a different manner if they so choose. It's a choice, and that's something we cannot hold against other people in a game. But in the end, if they want to become efficient most specially for PVP, they will eventually have to take each and every weakness into consideration, and this includes our lack of CC, and our vulnerability against CC without Stealth for their chosen builds. Will they take those CC's straight to the face and just suck it up, go to grave? Or will they find some sort of setup that will maximize their ability to react and counter the meta? Diversifying builds requires a LOT of thought. It ain't easy, it shouldn't be. There are a lot of factors that needs to be put into consideration. Simple questions like what is this build's purpose, what are its strengths and weaknesses, how will I further improve those strengths and lessen those weaknesses, those sort of important things, not just "What exactly makes my build unique and identifiable?" Creating builds is a form of art in MMO's. People are seeking for perfection in their builds based on the purpose they planned for their build. People may opt to take a unique build, but that uniqueness will not matter if it does not have a clear purpose of what it should do, or contribute for the game.
So yes, TL;DR, diversity = builds. It starts with the guides you write, and we are in dire need of more.
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crystal892fMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 385Arc User
It's not diversity you want. You want everything the same so why even have the classes with builds you can make yourself? If your looking for that then you want one class with one set abilities and not being able to change anything to your style. Like WOW or Everquest simple one class you pick no abilities everyone is the same. Wouldn't that be boring? Like football if every team was the same and couldn't get better players to improve the teams it would be boring and no one will watch. I have read allot on these boards there are allot of stronger classes then the TR so why nerf them more?
Funny you think you know better what I want than I do.
You completely misunderstand me, which is clearly shown in your response. I can't make it simpler than: For TRs there is only ONE most efficient build to play in PvP. Because it has more advantages than any other and is way harder to counter. This means there is nearly no diversity in top end PvP TRs. Because if you wanna be most efficient and win 1on1s and matches, you HAVE to use that build. And this shouldn't be imho.
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adernathMember, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
No one would seriously question the rogues abilities to avoid damage, including stealth. A non-permstealth rogue has enough abilities to avoid to be cc chained and do just well in pvp. Having these abilities at hand, there is also no 100% chance for being cc-ed - a well-timed dodge for example. Of course you can not expect that you are invulnerable all the time.
As I have mentioned before, I am open for a decent buff or introduction of a meele cc ability for rogues as compensation to finally make these builds impossible.
Bare also in mind the countless posts of players demanding a change in this matter since the game came out.
Suggestions to improve NW:
- Dualspec
- Better rewarding foundry and foundry pvp maps
- Custom PvP leagues with leaderboards instead of the current 'matchmaking'.
- Armory
- make jumping cost stamina (to reduce hopping in pvp)
I'm not saying that people are questioning a rogue's ability to avoid damage or CC. What I'm saying is that this is the only thing they CAN do efficiently in a PVP meta where CC is king. Some people may argue that burst damage is king in PVP, but that burst will not be possible without the foundations made by their CC. CC is the problem, not us. We are merely reacting to the real problem in PVP which is permastun, permaprone, or whatever perma-CC people can include in their rotations. That is destroying PVP. When a person can just render someone immobile and defenseless at the press of a key, wouldn't you say that this is more overpowered than an ability that prevents this?
This is the reason why the CC-reliant population of the game are outraged by the idea of a class build that can render their CC-centered builds useless. We are going AGAINST the meta, not with it, simply because we can't. We absolutely can't, because we do not have CC's as effective as the ones we see from the other classes. And we actually do have melee CC abilities such as Dazing Strike, a slow, telegraphed ability that will only hit inexperienced players. These are not as effective as the CC's of the other classes more blessed in the area of control such as CW's who can spam a wide variety of these from range at reduced RSI thanks to WIS/INT and Recovery (with a possible encounter load out of 4 CC's), GWF's and GF's with their prones, one of which is semi-ranged and their CC's also come with huge bursts of DPS, and HR's with Roots, Roots, 1 melee Prone, 1 ranged Daze, and more Roots. These are powers that we cannot contend against because our own CC's are inefficient. So we took it upon ourselves to utilize what our class has been provided by the game, which is our ability to make it hard for you guys to land these CC's.
And yes, you did mention that you want a decent buff or an introduction of a melee CC ability for rogues. But why? There is no need to. We weren't developed for CC, and that much should be apparent. We were made to evade and prevent them, so we utilize our purpose to its fullest; just like each and every single class in the game who are performing how they were made to. If people want to CC us stealth rogues, just CC us in Stealth where we are most vulnerable. It only takes a little thinking to do. We do not need to be lumped together in the meta, neither would we want to contribute to its brokenness. There's no need to add another class to the cycle of brokenness of this boring PVP meta where skill merely equates to pressing buttons to CC someone to death, and the potency of these CC attacks are increased by gear, enchants, and other things that are completely unrelated to what players claim as skill.
I also understand that countless posts of players are demanding a change for this matter since the game came out, but bear also in mind that countless players within those countless posts have zero understanding of what the rogue is, what they do, their overall purpose, strengths and weaknesses, etc. These are the cries of the uninformed, those who refuse to learn. They are crying for changes because WE are going against the PVP CC meta, which is their popular way of playing in PVP. Simple as that. We do not CC, and we do our best to not be affected by it easily. Those players found that they can't land their CC's, so they cry to make things easier for them. That is complete and unreasonable Q.Q by any standards.
So it doesn't matter how many cry about our "unfair advantage", because we also come with the unfair disadvantage of being unable to contend with the current PVP CC meta. I hope I made our stand clear enough. We are not the problem, we are merely a reaction to the real problem.
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adernathMember, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
I'm not saying that people are questioning a rogue's ability to avoid damage or CC. What I'm saying is that this is the only thing they CAN do efficiently in a PVP meta where CC is king. Some people may argue that burst damage is king in PVP, but that burst will not be possible without the foundations made by their CC. CC is the problem, not us. We are merely reacting to the real problem in PVP which is permastun, permaprone, or whatever perma-CC people can include in their rotations. That is destroying PVP. When a person can just render someone immobile and defenseless at the press of a key, wouldn't you say that this is more overpowered than an ability that prevents this?
First: I saw enough rogues non-permstealth which can do very well and effective in pvp. Second: Many classes have feats to reduce the duration of being cc-ed, there are racials and pets who further reduce cc time. We will now have tenacity by which the dev's have even more control over that duration. I do not think that cc-lock is (and will) be a big problem if you take all these points into account.
This is the reason why the CC-reliant population of the game are outraged by the idea of a class build that can render their CC-centered builds useless. We are going AGAINST the meta, not with it, simply because we can't. We absolutely can't, because we do not have CC's as effective as the ones we see from the other classes. And we actually do have melee CC abilities such as Dazing Strike, a slow, telegraphed ability that will only hit inexperienced players. These are not as effective as the CC's of the other classes more blessed in the area of control such as CW's who can spam a wide variety of these from range at reduced RSI thanks to WIS/INT and Recovery (with a possible encounter load out of 4 CC's), GWF's and GF's with their prones, one of which is semi-ranged and their CC's also come with huge bursts of DPS, and HR's with Roots, Roots, 1 melee Prone, 1 ranged Daze, and more Roots. These are powers that we cannot contend against because our own CC's are inefficient. So we took it upon ourselves to utilize what our class has been provided by the game, which is our ability to make it hard for you guys to land these CC's.
And thats why I am fine if Dazing Strike for example would be buffed to land a bit faster or/and if it lands has a longer cc duration as a compensation for the build removal - but only if it really turns out that it will be a big problem. But again: I saw quite alot non-permstealth rogues just doing fine in PvP. So they apparently know how to counter these CCs. There are enough abilities at hand for rogues to counter being CC-ed.
And yes, you did mention that you want a decent buff or an introduction of a melee CC ability for rogues. But why? There is no need to. We weren't developed for CC, and that much should be apparent. We were made to evade and prevent them, so we utilize our purpose to its fullest; just like each and every single class in the game who are performing how they were made to. If people want to CC us stealth rogues, just CC us in Stealth where we are most vulnerable. It only takes a little thinking to do. We do not need to be lumped together in the meta, neither would we want to contribute to its brokenness. There's no need to add another class to the cycle of brokenness of this boring PVP meta where skill merely equates to pressing buttons to CC someone to death, and the potency of these CC attacks are increased by gear, enchants, and other things that are completely unrelated to what players claim as skill.
Indeed there is no need to buff/introduce some CC ability in the first place. The point is if you are permanently stealthed, you can not be targeted permanently and therefore the only way is to use maybe the only one AOE you have (most useful spells in PvP are non-AOE) and thats it. That will not be sufficient enough to scratch any of these guys if it lands at all.
The point is again: It is highly unbalanced that a class can avoid being targeted the entire match making a class which depends on CC to survive useless. This build was with utmost probability never be intended by the dev's.
And talking about skill: What is the skill of staying invisible sitting at one spot and using only one ability? That is no skill for me. For me the non-permstealth rogues are the ones who show their skill.
I also understand that countless posts of players are demanding a change for this matter since the game came out, but bear also in mind that countless players within those countless posts have zero understanding of what the rogue is, what they do, their overall purpose, strengths and weaknesses, etc. These are the cries of the uninformed, those who refuse to learn. They are crying for changes because WE are going against the PVP CC meta, which is their popular way of playing in PVP. Simple as that. We do not CC, and we do our best to not be affected by it easily. Those players found that they can't land their CC's, so they cry to make things easier for them. That is complete and unreasonable Q.Q by any standards.
Your argument also goes in the other direction: There are many players new to this game playing a rogue the first time and have zero understanding of what the rogue is, what they do, their overall purpose, strengths and weaknesses. They think that such builds are the normal way to go but do not realize that the dev's never intended it this way.
It is an exploit and people got used to it. It is really that easy. It goes into the same category as (fictional) exploit builds in which GWFs have permanent unstoppable, GFs have permanent guard up, CWs can spam their tab ability without cooldown etc...
Suggestions to improve NW:
- Dualspec
- Better rewarding foundry and foundry pvp maps
- Custom PvP leagues with leaderboards instead of the current 'matchmaking'.
- Armory
- make jumping cost stamina (to reduce hopping in pvp)
First: I saw enough rogues non-permstealth which can do very well and effective in pvp. Second: Many classes have feats to reduce the duration of being cc-ed, there are racials and pets who further reduce cc time. We will now have tenacity by which the dev's have even more control over that duration. I do not think that cc-lock is (and will) be a big problem if you take all these points into account.
Good against PUGs and the low end entry level players? I'd like to see those good rogues play in either mid-experienced or high-end community. So who are they? In TR PVP, the first one to be unstealthed with ITC on Cooldown dies, because that's when the permaprone/permastun starts. You will almost always never see a high end PVP TR not have ITC and not utilize Stealth to its fullest, simply because it's the most viable way to counter the CC meta of PVP. This is how we adapted to you people.
And based on this reply, I can tell you don't play a rogue at all, neither do you PVP at all. Based on your mode of thinking you most probably main a Control Wizard, one with a PVE spec. Am I right? If I'm wrong I apologize for assuming. But if you were playing PVP as a TR, you most probably would not even bother mentioning how "classes" have feats to reduce the duration of being CC-ed. Please name one for TR's, then... Yes, Right? There's none, except for Impossible to Catch, which is one of our staple skills that we are already using. There are no other ways to counter CC's as a TR. Not to mention, pets? I mean no offense, but this is what got me thinking that you are mainly a PVE player who does not do regular PVP-ing. Or if you PVP at all, you're most probably entering PVP in a PVE setup. Pets don't do nil for PVP. Their bonuses are inactive during the time you are in Domination. I can tell you that I'd gladly entertain the idea of having these bonuses on for PVP, though. That would make builds so much more fun and complex. I can understand how you would think that racials would be a good way to stave off the effects of CC. But are you saying we have to roll a certain race to play PVP as a TR? How much more adapting do you want us to do exactly?
All in all your suggestions simply will not work, because majority aren't feasible or wise, nor would they even apply for PVP. Tenacity is the only thing you said that made sense so far. And I agree, it will definitely change PVP for the better.
And thats why I am fine if Dazing Strike for example would be buffed to land a bit faster or/and if it lands has a longer cc duration as a compensation for the build removal - but only if it really turns out that it will be a big problem. But again: I saw quite alot non-permstealth rogues just doing fine in PvP. So they apparently know how to counter these CCs. There are enough abilities at hand for rogues to counter being CC-ed.
Okay. Can you tell me of these rogue abilities that can counter being CC-ed? I can name you three which I already mentioned. Stealth, Dodge, ITC, and sometimes DF as well but that thing is unreliably clunky as heck. What else do we have that can compete with the CC other classes can dish out?
Indeed there is no need to buff/introduce some CC ability in the first place. The point is if you are permanently stealthed, you can not be targeted permanently and therefore the only way is to use maybe the only one AOE you have (most useful spells in PvP are non-AOE) and thats it. That will not be sufficient enough to scratch any of these guys if it lands at all.
No friend, that is where you are wrong. We can be targeted, you just can't see us until you get close to us by 10'. We are most vulnerable when we are in Stealth, because whenever we are in Stealth, our PVP lives depend on it. Losing it early equates to death (because of perma-CC), and it is very easy to make us lose it.
I'm imagining your next question would be "So we have to get close to you in order for us to CC you?" Yes. In a sense, what Stealth does is we reduce the effective range of your CC's. So if you can find us and get close to us, you can resume your perma-stun until we are perma-dead. Or you can run. It's your choice. All I can say is that high-end CW's, GF's, GWF's, and HR's who are built for PVP have already adapted to a Rogue's Stealth. They may think it's annoying but it's nothing they can't handle. People who mainly PVE will have it hard against us, because we are built for a PVP purpose, while the PVE players do not put PVP factors into consideration when they build their characters. PVP players adapt, not resort to incessant Q.Q unless a certain build has absolutely zero weaknesses (Rock-paper-scissors in one such as IV Sents). Stealth rogues have one; and it's our DPS. We sacrifice our burst damage in order to slot 2 - 3 non-DPS encounters. Permastealth rogues get laughed at for the paltry DPS they dish out. We can elude you, but the challenge then will be killing you. Thus we have to be very intelligent and crafty about how we kill someone.
The point is again: It is highly unbalanced that a class can avoid being targeted the entire match making a class which depends on CC to survive useless. This build was with utmost probability never be intended by the dev's.
The entire match? That's misinformation. We go out of Stealth eventually. Every rogue does. We can go out of Stealth earlier if you just tried to screw the rotations we rely on, but we prefer to go out of Stealth once you are dead. And CC as a means for survival? No, absolutely not. CC is your means to kill because every CC other classes have is associated with high DPS. Name me a commonly used CC encounter for PVP that does not have high damage associated with it? Your dependency on CC caused the permastealth build to come into fruition. We adapted to you people.
And talking about skill: What is the skill of staying invisible sitting at one spot and using only one ability? That is no skill for me. For me the non-permstealth rogues are the ones who show their skill.
Staying invisible and sitting on one spot? No skill at all, I swear, only a fool of a stealth player would stay in one spot. That is completely wrong. Any rogue who plays with stealth knows how imperative it is to keep moving based on the movements of your opponents lest you want them to land their CC's on you. We have to remain out of your field of vision, out of the field of vision of your ally, and your other ally, and your other ally, in order to keep contesting your node. Now tell me, do you think it's easy to predict and take all your movements into consideration and find the best possible paths to take in order to elude you people in a small node that we absolutely have to step on because it is our job to do so? So yeah, another would be, like I said in the previous statement I quoted, the challenge in playing a stealth build would be killing you guys. We have gimped DPS, that much is apparent in medium/high end PVP. If these sort of rogues wish to kill someone, they'll eventually have to close in with melee skills. The problem is closing in on you guys almost always guarantees landing a CC in if we do not have alternative methods of staving off those CC's. If we want to kill people, it's another challenge. Our DPS is laughable. We are not as dangerous as our other burst-oriented kin, whom you do not wish to be caught in your melee range. But what we do have is survival, which is something the burst rogues do not have much of unless they are being babysat by clerics in premade matches.
It doesn't take much skill to play a permastealth but I'm pretty sure it takes some degree of intelligence to at least use efficiently. Now tell me where exactly is the skill in pressing a button to render someone immobile to death? This is what you guys want, the ability to do that easier.
Your argument also goes in the other direction: There are many players new to this game playing a rogue the first time and have zero understanding of what the rogue is, what they do, their overall purpose, strengths and weaknesses. They think that such builds are the normal way to go but do not realize that the dev's never intended it this way.
Oh but it IS a normal way to go. It utilizes the synergy between our given skills and class mechanics. Who exactly are you to say what's normal and what's not normal? What's intended and not? By your line of logic, what can you draw from these information? Notice how a permastealth skill like Gloaming Cut received a buff, but conversely Cloud of Steel, Lurker's Assault, Shocking Execution, Duelist's Flurry and its related feats got severe nerfs. What exactly does this tell you now? Bait and Switch and Shadow Strike, our two staple skills that make the build possible, has remained untouched since Open Beta. Can you tell me what hasty generalizations can you draw from this? Let me try for you. We can say that this means we are not seen as a problem, because we are merely utilizing our mechanics and skills to their fullest in order to fulfill our given roles; to be a stealth class. Don't you think so too?
So until the devs say otherwise, it's legit. Your bigoted beliefs carry no weight.
It is an exploit and people got used to it. It is really that easy. It goes into the same category as (fictional) exploit builds in which GWFs have permanent unstoppable, GFs have permanent guard up, CWs can spam their tab ability without cooldown etc...
Fictional? Friend, I already have the build specifics for a GWF build that is able to have 100% immunity uptime and maximized unstoppable. All I need are the gear, but it has already been tested and it's very real. I'm pretty sure the other GWF's also know of how this can be attained. For GF's, I have created one that is close to what you are describing. One that can maximize having guard up to the point of being permanent. Tested, released, played by other players. I have a CW build in the works that in theory should be able to retain a perma-CC rotation even after Tenacity hits. It was supposed to be a perma-choke + 3 DPS encounters build but that is no longer possible thanks to Tenacity. So yeah, can't exploit this anymore, huh?
What you like call "fictional", "impossible" or "exploits" are actually very possible, very real builds, and the devs gave us the capabilities to perform them in the game with legit means. The problem here is your closed-minded idea of how balance should be, because of how indoctrinated you are by whatever previous MMO you used to play with a different mindset about balance. This is a different game where build creativity is rewarded.
I'm sure we will never see eye to eye, but allow me to tell you that I do not particularly mind if permastealth gets nerfed to impossibility. Please feel free to raise more of your feedback in the Gameplay Forums or the Preview Feedback. The devs seem to frequent those forums, and your voice will be more than likely heard in there.
There are those who cry and those who cause the tears. If a nerf does happen, we'll give you guys something else to complain about. Until then, we'll be sabotaging your base node.
And based on this reply, I can tell you don't play a rogue at all, neither do you PVP at all. Based on your mode of thinking you most probably main a Control Wizard, one with a PVE spec. Am I right? If I'm wrong I apologize for assuming.
I never made a secret of it. I think I mentioned that in other posts before. It is quite obvious why so many CWs (and not only CWs btw) demand a change. However I am doing quite alot PvP and would say I perform averagely good. I know that my spec renders me more a glass cannon, but I am not complaining about that aspect.
What I am complaining about is that these builds are exploits by definition. I would really like to see a honest developer statement about the original intention of how the TR class should work (in pvp) at the time of the game development.
But if you were playing PVP as a TR, you most probably would not even bother mentioning how "classes" have feats to reduce the duration of being CC-ed. Please name one for TR's, then... Yes, Right? There's none, except for Impossible to Catch, which is one of our staple skills that we are already using.
I said many classes have such feats, I was not referring to TR in particular. My apologies for that pets augments are indeed turned off. I thought it was just the active pet which is disabled.
All in all your suggestions simply will not work, because majority aren't feasible or wise, nor would they even apply for PVP. Tenacity is the only thing you said that made sense so far. And I agree, it will definitely change PVP for the better.
I said that first these builds should be made impossible in the light of the new PvP stat. After that one can think about buffing or gimping certain class abilities. I am confident that with the new rating system the developers have a good indication about the 'large-scale' class balances in PvP as time passes. If it turns out that TR are in fact too weak without this permstealth-setup, then one can always buff or change certain abilities. I think this is the best way for everyone.
Okay. Can you tell me of these rogue abilities that can counter being CC-ed? I can name you three which I already mentioned. Stealth, Dodge, ITC, and sometimes DF as well but that thing is unreliably clunky as heck. What else do we have that can compete with the CC other classes can dish out?
As I said, I find all abilities good enough, stealth and ITC should in fact last a while. I am really not questioning that. But at some point all abilities must have a cooldown or vanish and the player should use other abilities to finish his opponent. I am all for a fair game experience and perfectly balanced classes. To accomplish that things need time and discussions like here on the forum. The current situation however is IMO that we have this build which is giving an unfair advantage and hiding a players skills.
No friend, that is where you are wrong. We can be targeted, you just can't see us until you get close to us by 10'. We are most vulnerable when we are in Stealth, because whenever we are in Stealth, our PVP lives depend on it. Losing it early equates to death (because of perma-CC), and it is very easy to make us lose it.
I'm imagining your next question would be "So we have to get close to you in order for us to CC you?" Yes. In a sense, what Stealth does is we reduce the effective range of your CC's. So if you can find us and get close to us, you can resume your perma-stun until we are perma-dead. Or you can run. It's your choice.
I think I played enough matches to tell you that you can not target someone in stealth in the first place. You are right with that you can detect rogues in close distance, but it is imo still a too big advantage.
All I can say is that high-end CW's, GF's, GWF's, and HR's who are built for PVP have already adapted to a Rogue's Stealth. They may think it's annoying but it's nothing they can't handle. People who mainly PVE will have it hard against us, because we are built for a PVP purpose, while the PVE players do not put PVP factors into consideration when they build their characters. PVP players adapt, not resort to incessant Q.Q unless a certain build has absolutely zero weaknesses (Rock-paper-scissors in one such as IV Sents).
I think that I know very well when someone is clearly outgearing me and when someone has low or average skill but use an exploit in my eyes. GWFs is another topic, a small change would be nice here as well.
Again, please do not think that I want to nerf all classes just for the sake of my favorite class (I play other classes as well), but that I'd like to see a general class balance. It doesnt matter if a certain person who spend much AD into his toon may have not much problems with an average permstealth TR, for me it count only the average experience and balance. In its current state I find that it is already quite good balanced, but not perfectly. And this topic is one aspect which is not IMO.
Stealth rogues have one; and it's our DPS. We sacrifice our burst damage in order to slot 2 - 3 non-DPS encounters. Permastealth rogues get laughed at for the paltry DPS they dish out. We can elude you, but the challenge then will be killing you. Thus we have to be very intelligent and crafty about how we kill someone.
Well, all what I see is that they spam knife which has a dps is comparable to the at-will damage from CWs and HRs. Doesnt matter much if you make low dps or not as long as your victim can not outheal it, its an unfair advantage.
And CC as a means for survival? No, absolutely not. CC is your means to kill because every CC other classes have is associated with high DPS. Name me a commonly used CC encounter for PVP that does not have high damage associated with it? Your dependency on CC caused the permastealth build to come into fruition. We adapted to you people.
CC is survival... offense is the best defense. If you want examples for CC with low damage, then its entangle and pushback.
Oh but it IS a normal way to go. It utilizes the synergy between our given skills and class mechanics. Who exactly are you to say what's normal and what's not normal? What's intended and not? By your line of logic, what can you draw from these information?
concering this game: primarily DnD games, since its lore is based on these. Of course I understand that this is a game of its own, but it takes its lore from DnD and for me the PnP versions are THE source and guidline when it comes to such questions. One could also use other games as example, but I would say primarily DnD. People who play this game are mostly also fan of DnD, that is why there are so many people around here. So IMO we should try to get as close as possible as long as its good for the flow of the game.
Notice how a permastealth skill like Gloaming Cut received a buff, but conversely Cloud of Steel, Lurker's Assault, Shocking Execution, Duelist's Flurry and its related feats got severe nerfs. What exactly does this tell you now? Bait and Switch and Shadow Strike, our two staple skills that make the build possible, has remained untouched since Open Beta. Can you tell me what hasty generalizations can you draw from this? Let me try for you. We can say that this means we are not seen as a problem, because we are merely utilizing our mechanics and skills to their fullest in order to fulfill our given roles; to be a stealth class. Don't you think so too?
First this tells me that initially it was even more unbalanced, but that is normal for a new game. The nerf of COS was also not sever IMO.
Secondly I observe that these builds are tolerated. Therefore I give my opinion as many others before me in order to achive a change in that matter. And I am confident that one day the devs 'say otherwise' - as with the current case of GWFs (which are 'legit' as well).
Fictional? Friend, I already have the build specifics for a GWF build that is able to have 100% immunity uptime and maximized unstoppable. All I need are the gear, but it has already been tested and it's very real. I'm pretty sure the other GWF's also know of how this can be attained. For GF's, I have created one that is close to what you are describing. One that can maximize having guard up to the point of being permanent. Tested, released, played by other players. I have a CW build in the works that in theory should be able to retain a perma-CC rotation even after Tenacity hits. It was supposed to be a perma-choke + 3 DPS encounters build but that is no longer possible thanks to Tenacity. So yeah, can't exploit this anymore, huh?
I never saw such builds running around. But when I see it, I would demand a change in the same way.
What you like call "fictional", "impossible" or "exploits" are actually very possible, very real builds, and the devs gave us the capabilities to perform them in the game with legit means. The problem here is your closed-minded idea of how balance should be, because of how indoctrinated you are by whatever previous MMO you used to play with a different mindset about balance. This is a different game where build creativity is rewarded.
An exploit is by definition something which is 'possible'. If it can be build it doesnt mean that it was originally intended. As I said above, a dev's statement would probably reveal that. Unfortunately they can not post here. I am all fine with build creativity, but in this case it is an exploit.
Anyways, lets agree that we not agree ok?
Suggestions to improve NW:
- Dualspec
- Better rewarding foundry and foundry pvp maps
- Custom PvP leagues with leaderboards instead of the current 'matchmaking'.
- Armory
- make jumping cost stamina (to reduce hopping in pvp)
concering this game: primarily DnD games, since its lore is based on these. Of course I understand that this is a game of its own, but it takes its lore from DnD and for me the PnP versions are THE source and guidline when it comes to such questions. One could also use other games as example, but I would say primarily DnD. People who play this game are mostly also fan of DnD, that is why there are so many people around here. So IMO we should try to get as close as possible as long as its good for the flow of the game.
Beware what you ask for! Going with the DnD spirit:
- Stealth does not deplet with time, so I can run in stealth for 10 minutes if I want to. Unless I attack, I am detected or hit, which reveals my position.
- When rogue is in stealth there is no "floating dagger", to detect him as a wizard you either have high "spot" and "hear" skill (so you would have to sacrifce 10 feat points!) or you have to slot "detect invisibility" spell as one of your encounters (so one dps/CC skill less for the utility one).
- When rogue attacks from stealth he gets additional backstab damage, which is HUGE compared to regular attack (+100% or even +200% if assasin build), may temporarily cripple your primary stats, etc. So, in NWO that would mean my lasing blade from stealth does 12K + 12-24K backstab bonus = 24-32K strike. So yeah, if I catch you off guard I can one-shot you from stealth, typical for a rogue to do this to squishies in DnD game.
- Rogue can have poisoneus attack which, depending on DnD eddition:
* Tick every second, having high chance to interrupt your current casting
* Decrease your stat (f.e. STR/CON), unless you pot it or cleric casts appropirate spell
- Rogue can place a trap which does direct damage, applies poison or CC, lanuches fireball, etc.
So, yeah. For a PvP keeping rogue class closer to classic DnD rules would mean a huge buff.
And one more thing: if you say that dazing strike is what TR should use in PvP for CC, you don't have a clue about rogues in NWO.
Ratharel - stealthy backstabber from the Myth Drannor
0
adernathMember, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Beware what you ask for! Going with the DnD spirit:
- Stealth does not deplet with time, so I can run in stealth for 10 minutes if I want to. Unless I attack, I am detected or hit, which reveals my position.
- When rogue is in stealth there is no "floating dagger", to detect him as a wizard you either have high "spot" and "hear" skill (so you would have to sacrifce 10 feat points!) or you have to slot "detect invisibility" spell as one of your encounters (so one dps/CC skill less for the utility one).
- When rogue attacks from stealth he gets additional backstab damage, which is HUGE compared to regular attack (+100% or even +200% if assasin build), may temporarily cripple your primary stats, etc. So, in NWO that would mean my lasing blade from stealth does 12K + 12-24K backstab bonus = 24-32K strike. So yeah, if I catch you off guard I can one-shot you from stealth, typical for a rogue to do this to squishies in DnD game.
- Rogue can have poisoneus attack which, depending on DnD eddition:
* Tick every second, having high chance to interrupt your current casting
* Decrease your stat (f.e. STR/CON), unless you pot it or cleric casts appropirate spell
- Rogue can place a trap which does direct damage, applies poison or CC, lanuches fireball, etc.
The point is not to make a complete rework of the game, but to have DnD as a guide for general situations, possibilities and impossibilities. It really does not make sense to mix current game abilties and numbers with DnD rules...
And one more thing: if you say that dazing strike is what TR should use in PvP for CC, you don't have a clue about rogues in NWO.
A little bit more text comprehension please. I stated this in the context of a suggestion to buff certain abilities. Not referring to the current state of the game.
Suggestions to improve NW:
- Dualspec
- Better rewarding foundry and foundry pvp maps
- Custom PvP leagues with leaderboards instead of the current 'matchmaking'.
- Armory
- make jumping cost stamina (to reduce hopping in pvp)
Ultimately in one of the recent dev pvp livestreams, I rose the question of if there were plans to nerf stealth builds. They said they are working on it and looking at ideas such as making dealing damage from stealth drain a little stealth or making you visible to a target that you hit while stealthed. I believe that would be a good balance rather than scrapping stealth for stamina. However, since rogues are hit harder by damage nerfs and final PvP set stat distributions, I believe rogues will be disregarded in favor of HRs. HRs have better stat distributions on the upcoming PvP sets, gain arm pen to combat tenacity from their base stat, and will maintain their high degree of survivability that TRs will lose with stealth nerfs. Not brining up ranged/AOE damage.
...or making you visible to a target that you hit while stealthed.
This should be an awesome change in my opinion. It may be a whole new learning curve, but less Q.Q's, more constructive discussions and possibly more people writing guides, I'm all up for such a change.
Some stuff I'd like to have included with such a change however, just to bring some fine-tuned balance, would be...
1. The duration we are made visible to a target would only be during the instant we attack them. So if we keep spamming CoS, we're visible during the span of time of attacks.
2. When encounters pop us out of Stealth, Stealth will not be depleted, but will be fixed on the amount it has left when we use the encounter. So if I use an encounter and I have 70% Stealth left on the meter, my Stealth will remain on 70% and not be depleted to zero like it usually does in Live.
I think that's a fair trade for our being visible each time we land an attack in Stealth even if they are At-Wills. Should be easy-mode enough for other players who couldn't bother themselves to adapt as we did. No more DF surprise attacks, no more CoS in Stealth, etc. There will be very, very few viable ways of attacking in Stealth with such a change. Okay, I think this merits a suggestion thread in the preview shard, just so the class doesn't get killed because of all the incessant Q.Q's.
0
adernathMember, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited March 2014
I like this idea as well, as long as it will contribute to a balanced gameplay.
Suggestions to improve NW:
- Dualspec
- Better rewarding foundry and foundry pvp maps
- Custom PvP leagues with leaderboards instead of the current 'matchmaking'.
- Armory
- make jumping cost stamina (to reduce hopping in pvp)
This should be an awesome change in my opinion. It may be a whole new learning curve, but less Q.Q's, more constructive discussions and possibly more people writing guides, I'm all up for such a change.
Some stuff I'd like to have included with such a change however, just to bring some fine-tuned balance, would be...
1. The duration we are made visible to a target would only be during the instant we attack them. So if we keep spamming CoS, we're visible during the span of time of attacks.
2. When encounters pop us out of Stealth, Stealth will not be depleted, but will be fixed on the amount it has left when we use the encounter. So if I use an encounter and I have 70% Stealth left on the meter, my Stealth will remain on 70% and not be depleted to zero like it usually does in Live.
I think that's a fair trade for our being visible each time we land an attack in Stealth even if they are At-Wills. Should be easy-mode enough for other players who couldn't bother themselves to adapt as we did. No more DF surprise attacks, no more CoS in Stealth, etc. There will be very, very few viable ways of attacking in Stealth with such a change. Okay, I think this merits a suggestion thread in the preview shard, just so the class doesn't get killed because of all the incessant Q.Q's.
Obviously that alternative is more appealing to rogues rather than having stealth depleted, but in reality, while it seems fair, I don't think it would be enough being implemented as you say. I would simply only land the flurry of hits from DF on my target while stealthed, allowing myself to stay immune for the duration they can actually see me and only use COS sparingly or out of stealth. Not to mention, any stealth loss from hits taken during that immunity window could be compensated with +30% stealth gear. Then again, even if they made attacks deplete stealth, then we could all just wait it out and time it so that we only use DF at the end of stealth or something until it is a 1v1 scenario against something like a DC or to where they are depleted health a bit to and you don't need the perma stealth for 1v1.
Well, we'll just have to see how things pan out. I'll still play my rogue even with these nerfs, and we'll surely find ways to make sure that this nerf doesn't kill us entirely. I'm more worried about the rogue in PVE than in PVP. Having our Stealth cut by our own At-Wills would make a lot of our Stealth-related skills and the Skulker/Profound set really useless, not to mention CW's are eating up the slots that are supposed to be ours because their AoE CC's are OP. Kills single target damage and tanking. Nonetheless, I'm curious about how the devs will do this.
Well, we'll just have to see how things pan out. I'll still play my rogue even with these nerfs, and we'll surely find ways to make sure that this nerf doesn't kill us entirely. I'm more worried about the rogue in PVE than in PVP. Having our Stealth cut by our own At-Wills would make a lot of our Stealth-related skills and the Skulker/Profound set really useless, not to mention CW's are eating up the slots that are supposed to be ours because their AoE CC's are OP. Kills single target damage and tanking. Nonetheless, I'm curious about how the devs will do this.
Personally I was surprised they even replied with the idea of making attacks drain stealth due to the massive backlash which caused that idea not to get implemented months ago. If they decided not to do it then, I am not sure why the would try to resurrect that idea after leaving it for so long unless it could be made more viable by +30% stealth.
Comments
And like I keep saying in my previous posts, the people playing with Stealth builds in PVP is a reaction against the current CC meta in PVP. Players desire to be effective, and to contribute to the team instead of being a permadead rogue. We have no CC's as effective as the ones we see from other classes who are able to dish out immense damage while still afflicting the opponent with CC (GWF/GF/CW/HR), but what we do have are ways to prevent, negate, and escape them. This is what Stealth-based builds are; a response to this broken meta, where the first one to pop the CC chain more often than not wins simply because we could not react. We will not stand to be chain CC-ed and team ganked because we have no efficient ways to deal the same CC as the other CC heavy classes. Our builds are going against the meta, and this is what's antagonizing players. CC-reliant players realize how they do not have things easy anymore when up against builds that negate how they built their characters. Stealth robs the CC-heavy classes of their 100% chance of CC-ing us because we are prolonging our ability to remain un-target-able, but people are forgetting that we can still be hit AND CC-ed when we are in Stealth, and this is when we are MOST vulnerable. This is where the problem starts for our opponents, the initial reaction is to fear what they cannot see. For those that do realize our vulnerability in Stealth, the problem then will be getting close to us, finding our silhouettes and landing the target reticule on us for a CC hit. Some TR's will be easy to find, some TR's won't, because they know their rogue stuff; and this is where skill comes into play. When your chain CC's are taken away from you, how exactly are you going to deal with it? Because it's EASY to take away our Stealth. Damage depletes it. It's also easy to send us to the grave once we're lying on the ground prone, frozen, choked or whatever; so let us take something away from CC classes as well, which is their probability, uptime and efficiency of landing it. Our class was designed to make it hard for them to faceroll those CC's and get easy kills.
But this begs the question, is there any other viable way to play the rogue? The answer is, of course! People can still play this class in a different manner if they so choose. It's a choice, and that's something we cannot hold against other people in a game. But in the end, if they want to become efficient most specially for PVP, they will eventually have to take each and every weakness into consideration, and this includes our lack of CC, and our vulnerability against CC without Stealth for their chosen builds. Will they take those CC's straight to the face and just suck it up, go to grave? Or will they find some sort of setup that will maximize their ability to react and counter the meta? Diversifying builds requires a LOT of thought. It ain't easy, it shouldn't be. There are a lot of factors that needs to be put into consideration. Simple questions like what is this build's purpose, what are its strengths and weaknesses, how will I further improve those strengths and lessen those weaknesses, those sort of important things, not just "What exactly makes my build unique and identifiable?" Creating builds is a form of art in MMO's. People are seeking for perfection in their builds based on the purpose they planned for their build. People may opt to take a unique build, but that uniqueness will not matter if it does not have a clear purpose of what it should do, or contribute for the game.
So yes, TL;DR, diversity = builds. It starts with the guides you write, and we are in dire need of more.
You completely misunderstand me, which is clearly shown in your response. I can't make it simpler than: For TRs there is only ONE most efficient build to play in PvP. Because it has more advantages than any other and is way harder to counter. This means there is nearly no diversity in top end PvP TRs. Because if you wanna be most efficient and win 1on1s and matches, you HAVE to use that build. And this shouldn't be imho.
No one would seriously question the rogues abilities to avoid damage, including stealth. A non-permstealth rogue has enough abilities to avoid to be cc chained and do just well in pvp. Having these abilities at hand, there is also no 100% chance for being cc-ed - a well-timed dodge for example. Of course you can not expect that you are invulnerable all the time.
As I have mentioned before, I am open for a decent buff or introduction of a meele cc ability for rogues as compensation to finally make these builds impossible.
Bare also in mind the countless posts of players demanding a change in this matter since the game came out.
- Dualspec
- Better rewarding foundry and foundry pvp maps
- Custom PvP leagues with leaderboards instead of the current 'matchmaking'.
- Armory
- make jumping cost stamina (to reduce hopping in pvp)
This is the reason why the CC-reliant population of the game are outraged by the idea of a class build that can render their CC-centered builds useless. We are going AGAINST the meta, not with it, simply because we can't. We absolutely can't, because we do not have CC's as effective as the ones we see from the other classes. And we actually do have melee CC abilities such as Dazing Strike, a slow, telegraphed ability that will only hit inexperienced players. These are not as effective as the CC's of the other classes more blessed in the area of control such as CW's who can spam a wide variety of these from range at reduced RSI thanks to WIS/INT and Recovery (with a possible encounter load out of 4 CC's), GWF's and GF's with their prones, one of which is semi-ranged and their CC's also come with huge bursts of DPS, and HR's with Roots, Roots, 1 melee Prone, 1 ranged Daze, and more Roots. These are powers that we cannot contend against because our own CC's are inefficient. So we took it upon ourselves to utilize what our class has been provided by the game, which is our ability to make it hard for you guys to land these CC's.
And yes, you did mention that you want a decent buff or an introduction of a melee CC ability for rogues. But why? There is no need to. We weren't developed for CC, and that much should be apparent. We were made to evade and prevent them, so we utilize our purpose to its fullest; just like each and every single class in the game who are performing how they were made to. If people want to CC us stealth rogues, just CC us in Stealth where we are most vulnerable. It only takes a little thinking to do. We do not need to be lumped together in the meta, neither would we want to contribute to its brokenness. There's no need to add another class to the cycle of brokenness of this boring PVP meta where skill merely equates to pressing buttons to CC someone to death, and the potency of these CC attacks are increased by gear, enchants, and other things that are completely unrelated to what players claim as skill.
I also understand that countless posts of players are demanding a change for this matter since the game came out, but bear also in mind that countless players within those countless posts have zero understanding of what the rogue is, what they do, their overall purpose, strengths and weaknesses, etc. These are the cries of the uninformed, those who refuse to learn. They are crying for changes because WE are going against the PVP CC meta, which is their popular way of playing in PVP. Simple as that. We do not CC, and we do our best to not be affected by it easily. Those players found that they can't land their CC's, so they cry to make things easier for them. That is complete and unreasonable Q.Q by any standards.
So it doesn't matter how many cry about our "unfair advantage", because we also come with the unfair disadvantage of being unable to contend with the current PVP CC meta. I hope I made our stand clear enough. We are not the problem, we are merely a reaction to the real problem.
And thats why I am fine if Dazing Strike for example would be buffed to land a bit faster or/and if it lands has a longer cc duration as a compensation for the build removal - but only if it really turns out that it will be a big problem. But again: I saw quite alot non-permstealth rogues just doing fine in PvP. So they apparently know how to counter these CCs. There are enough abilities at hand for rogues to counter being CC-ed.
Indeed there is no need to buff/introduce some CC ability in the first place. The point is if you are permanently stealthed, you can not be targeted permanently and therefore the only way is to use maybe the only one AOE you have (most useful spells in PvP are non-AOE) and thats it. That will not be sufficient enough to scratch any of these guys if it lands at all.
The point is again: It is highly unbalanced that a class can avoid being targeted the entire match making a class which depends on CC to survive useless. This build was with utmost probability never be intended by the dev's.
And talking about skill: What is the skill of staying invisible sitting at one spot and using only one ability? That is no skill for me. For me the non-permstealth rogues are the ones who show their skill.
Your argument also goes in the other direction: There are many players new to this game playing a rogue the first time and have zero understanding of what the rogue is, what they do, their overall purpose, strengths and weaknesses. They think that such builds are the normal way to go but do not realize that the dev's never intended it this way.
It is an exploit and people got used to it. It is really that easy. It goes into the same category as (fictional) exploit builds in which GWFs have permanent unstoppable, GFs have permanent guard up, CWs can spam their tab ability without cooldown etc...
- Dualspec
- Better rewarding foundry and foundry pvp maps
- Custom PvP leagues with leaderboards instead of the current 'matchmaking'.
- Armory
- make jumping cost stamina (to reduce hopping in pvp)
Good against PUGs and the low end entry level players? I'd like to see those good rogues play in either mid-experienced or high-end community. So who are they? In TR PVP, the first one to be unstealthed with ITC on Cooldown dies, because that's when the permaprone/permastun starts. You will almost always never see a high end PVP TR not have ITC and not utilize Stealth to its fullest, simply because it's the most viable way to counter the CC meta of PVP. This is how we adapted to you people.
And based on this reply, I can tell you don't play a rogue at all, neither do you PVP at all. Based on your mode of thinking you most probably main a Control Wizard, one with a PVE spec. Am I right? If I'm wrong I apologize for assuming. But if you were playing PVP as a TR, you most probably would not even bother mentioning how "classes" have feats to reduce the duration of being CC-ed. Please name one for TR's, then... Yes, Right? There's none, except for Impossible to Catch, which is one of our staple skills that we are already using. There are no other ways to counter CC's as a TR. Not to mention, pets? I mean no offense, but this is what got me thinking that you are mainly a PVE player who does not do regular PVP-ing. Or if you PVP at all, you're most probably entering PVP in a PVE setup. Pets don't do nil for PVP. Their bonuses are inactive during the time you are in Domination. I can tell you that I'd gladly entertain the idea of having these bonuses on for PVP, though. That would make builds so much more fun and complex. I can understand how you would think that racials would be a good way to stave off the effects of CC. But are you saying we have to roll a certain race to play PVP as a TR? How much more adapting do you want us to do exactly?
All in all your suggestions simply will not work, because majority aren't feasible or wise, nor would they even apply for PVP. Tenacity is the only thing you said that made sense so far. And I agree, it will definitely change PVP for the better.
Okay. Can you tell me of these rogue abilities that can counter being CC-ed? I can name you three which I already mentioned. Stealth, Dodge, ITC, and sometimes DF as well but that thing is unreliably clunky as heck. What else do we have that can compete with the CC other classes can dish out?
No friend, that is where you are wrong. We can be targeted, you just can't see us until you get close to us by 10'. We are most vulnerable when we are in Stealth, because whenever we are in Stealth, our PVP lives depend on it. Losing it early equates to death (because of perma-CC), and it is very easy to make us lose it.
I'm imagining your next question would be "So we have to get close to you in order for us to CC you?" Yes. In a sense, what Stealth does is we reduce the effective range of your CC's. So if you can find us and get close to us, you can resume your perma-stun until we are perma-dead. Or you can run. It's your choice. All I can say is that high-end CW's, GF's, GWF's, and HR's who are built for PVP have already adapted to a Rogue's Stealth. They may think it's annoying but it's nothing they can't handle. People who mainly PVE will have it hard against us, because we are built for a PVP purpose, while the PVE players do not put PVP factors into consideration when they build their characters. PVP players adapt, not resort to incessant Q.Q unless a certain build has absolutely zero weaknesses (Rock-paper-scissors in one such as IV Sents). Stealth rogues have one; and it's our DPS. We sacrifice our burst damage in order to slot 2 - 3 non-DPS encounters. Permastealth rogues get laughed at for the paltry DPS they dish out. We can elude you, but the challenge then will be killing you. Thus we have to be very intelligent and crafty about how we kill someone.
The entire match? That's misinformation. We go out of Stealth eventually. Every rogue does. We can go out of Stealth earlier if you just tried to screw the rotations we rely on, but we prefer to go out of Stealth once you are dead. And CC as a means for survival? No, absolutely not. CC is your means to kill because every CC other classes have is associated with high DPS. Name me a commonly used CC encounter for PVP that does not have high damage associated with it? Your dependency on CC caused the permastealth build to come into fruition. We adapted to you people.
Staying invisible and sitting on one spot? No skill at all, I swear, only a fool of a stealth player would stay in one spot. That is completely wrong. Any rogue who plays with stealth knows how imperative it is to keep moving based on the movements of your opponents lest you want them to land their CC's on you. We have to remain out of your field of vision, out of the field of vision of your ally, and your other ally, and your other ally, in order to keep contesting your node. Now tell me, do you think it's easy to predict and take all your movements into consideration and find the best possible paths to take in order to elude you people in a small node that we absolutely have to step on because it is our job to do so? So yeah, another would be, like I said in the previous statement I quoted, the challenge in playing a stealth build would be killing you guys. We have gimped DPS, that much is apparent in medium/high end PVP. If these sort of rogues wish to kill someone, they'll eventually have to close in with melee skills. The problem is closing in on you guys almost always guarantees landing a CC in if we do not have alternative methods of staving off those CC's. If we want to kill people, it's another challenge. Our DPS is laughable. We are not as dangerous as our other burst-oriented kin, whom you do not wish to be caught in your melee range. But what we do have is survival, which is something the burst rogues do not have much of unless they are being babysat by clerics in premade matches.
It doesn't take much skill to play a permastealth but I'm pretty sure it takes some degree of intelligence to at least use efficiently. Now tell me where exactly is the skill in pressing a button to render someone immobile to death? This is what you guys want, the ability to do that easier.
Oh but it IS a normal way to go. It utilizes the synergy between our given skills and class mechanics. Who exactly are you to say what's normal and what's not normal? What's intended and not? By your line of logic, what can you draw from these information? Notice how a permastealth skill like Gloaming Cut received a buff, but conversely Cloud of Steel, Lurker's Assault, Shocking Execution, Duelist's Flurry and its related feats got severe nerfs. What exactly does this tell you now? Bait and Switch and Shadow Strike, our two staple skills that make the build possible, has remained untouched since Open Beta. Can you tell me what hasty generalizations can you draw from this? Let me try for you. We can say that this means we are not seen as a problem, because we are merely utilizing our mechanics and skills to their fullest in order to fulfill our given roles; to be a stealth class. Don't you think so too?
So until the devs say otherwise, it's legit. Your bigoted beliefs carry no weight.
Fictional? Friend, I already have the build specifics for a GWF build that is able to have 100% immunity uptime and maximized unstoppable. All I need are the gear, but it has already been tested and it's very real. I'm pretty sure the other GWF's also know of how this can be attained. For GF's, I have created one that is close to what you are describing. One that can maximize having guard up to the point of being permanent. Tested, released, played by other players. I have a CW build in the works that in theory should be able to retain a perma-CC rotation even after Tenacity hits. It was supposed to be a perma-choke + 3 DPS encounters build but that is no longer possible thanks to Tenacity. So yeah, can't exploit this anymore, huh?
What you like call "fictional", "impossible" or "exploits" are actually very possible, very real builds, and the devs gave us the capabilities to perform them in the game with legit means. The problem here is your closed-minded idea of how balance should be, because of how indoctrinated you are by whatever previous MMO you used to play with a different mindset about balance. This is a different game where build creativity is rewarded.
I'm sure we will never see eye to eye, but allow me to tell you that I do not particularly mind if permastealth gets nerfed to impossibility. Please feel free to raise more of your feedback in the Gameplay Forums or the Preview Feedback. The devs seem to frequent those forums, and your voice will be more than likely heard in there.
There are those who cry and those who cause the tears. If a nerf does happen, we'll give you guys something else to complain about. Until then, we'll be sabotaging your base node.
What I am complaining about is that these builds are exploits by definition. I would really like to see a honest developer statement about the original intention of how the TR class should work (in pvp) at the time of the game development.
I said many classes have such feats, I was not referring to TR in particular. My apologies for that pets augments are indeed turned off. I thought it was just the active pet which is disabled.
I said that first these builds should be made impossible in the light of the new PvP stat. After that one can think about buffing or gimping certain class abilities. I am confident that with the new rating system the developers have a good indication about the 'large-scale' class balances in PvP as time passes. If it turns out that TR are in fact too weak without this permstealth-setup, then one can always buff or change certain abilities. I think this is the best way for everyone.
As I said, I find all abilities good enough, stealth and ITC should in fact last a while. I am really not questioning that. But at some point all abilities must have a cooldown or vanish and the player should use other abilities to finish his opponent. I am all for a fair game experience and perfectly balanced classes. To accomplish that things need time and discussions like here on the forum. The current situation however is IMO that we have this build which is giving an unfair advantage and hiding a players skills.
I think I played enough matches to tell you that you can not target someone in stealth in the first place. You are right with that you can detect rogues in close distance, but it is imo still a too big advantage. I think that I know very well when someone is clearly outgearing me and when someone has low or average skill but use an exploit in my eyes. GWFs is another topic, a small change would be nice here as well.
Again, please do not think that I want to nerf all classes just for the sake of my favorite class (I play other classes as well), but that I'd like to see a general class balance. It doesnt matter if a certain person who spend much AD into his toon may have not much problems with an average permstealth TR, for me it count only the average experience and balance. In its current state I find that it is already quite good balanced, but not perfectly. And this topic is one aspect which is not IMO. Well, all what I see is that they spam knife which has a dps is comparable to the at-will damage from CWs and HRs. Doesnt matter much if you make low dps or not as long as your victim can not outheal it, its an unfair advantage.
CC is survival... offense is the best defense. If you want examples for CC with low damage, then its entangle and pushback. concering this game: primarily DnD games, since its lore is based on these. Of course I understand that this is a game of its own, but it takes its lore from DnD and for me the PnP versions are THE source and guidline when it comes to such questions. One could also use other games as example, but I would say primarily DnD. People who play this game are mostly also fan of DnD, that is why there are so many people around here. So IMO we should try to get as close as possible as long as its good for the flow of the game. First this tells me that initially it was even more unbalanced, but that is normal for a new game. The nerf of COS was also not sever IMO.
Secondly I observe that these builds are tolerated. Therefore I give my opinion as many others before me in order to achive a change in that matter. And I am confident that one day the devs 'say otherwise' - as with the current case of GWFs (which are 'legit' as well).
I never saw such builds running around. But when I see it, I would demand a change in the same way. An exploit is by definition something which is 'possible'. If it can be build it doesnt mean that it was originally intended. As I said above, a dev's statement would probably reveal that. Unfortunately they can not post here. I am all fine with build creativity, but in this case it is an exploit.
Anyways, lets agree that we not agree ok?
- Dualspec
- Better rewarding foundry and foundry pvp maps
- Custom PvP leagues with leaderboards instead of the current 'matchmaking'.
- Armory
- make jumping cost stamina (to reduce hopping in pvp)
Beware what you ask for! Going with the DnD spirit:
- Stealth does not deplet with time, so I can run in stealth for 10 minutes if I want to. Unless I attack, I am detected or hit, which reveals my position.
- When rogue is in stealth there is no "floating dagger", to detect him as a wizard you either have high "spot" and "hear" skill (so you would have to sacrifce 10 feat points!) or you have to slot "detect invisibility" spell as one of your encounters (so one dps/CC skill less for the utility one).
- When rogue attacks from stealth he gets additional backstab damage, which is HUGE compared to regular attack (+100% or even +200% if assasin build), may temporarily cripple your primary stats, etc. So, in NWO that would mean my lasing blade from stealth does 12K + 12-24K backstab bonus = 24-32K strike. So yeah, if I catch you off guard I can one-shot you from stealth, typical for a rogue to do this to squishies in DnD game.
- Rogue can have poisoneus attack which, depending on DnD eddition:
* Tick every second, having high chance to interrupt your current casting
* Decrease your stat (f.e. STR/CON), unless you pot it or cleric casts appropirate spell
- Rogue can place a trap which does direct damage, applies poison or CC, lanuches fireball, etc.
So, yeah. For a PvP keeping rogue class closer to classic DnD rules would mean a huge buff.
And one more thing: if you say that dazing strike is what TR should use in PvP for CC, you don't have a clue about rogues in NWO.
lolz... want to know what mages could do in DnD? Can we please stay on topic?
A little bit more text comprehension please. I stated this in the context of a suggestion to buff certain abilities. Not referring to the current state of the game.
- Dualspec
- Better rewarding foundry and foundry pvp maps
- Custom PvP leagues with leaderboards instead of the current 'matchmaking'.
- Armory
- make jumping cost stamina (to reduce hopping in pvp)
This should be an awesome change in my opinion. It may be a whole new learning curve, but less Q.Q's, more constructive discussions and possibly more people writing guides, I'm all up for such a change.
Some stuff I'd like to have included with such a change however, just to bring some fine-tuned balance, would be...
1. The duration we are made visible to a target would only be during the instant we attack them. So if we keep spamming CoS, we're visible during the span of time of attacks.
2. When encounters pop us out of Stealth, Stealth will not be depleted, but will be fixed on the amount it has left when we use the encounter. So if I use an encounter and I have 70% Stealth left on the meter, my Stealth will remain on 70% and not be depleted to zero like it usually does in Live.
I think that's a fair trade for our being visible each time we land an attack in Stealth even if they are At-Wills. Should be easy-mode enough for other players who couldn't bother themselves to adapt as we did. No more DF surprise attacks, no more CoS in Stealth, etc. There will be very, very few viable ways of attacking in Stealth with such a change. Okay, I think this merits a suggestion thread in the preview shard, just so the class doesn't get killed because of all the incessant Q.Q's.
- Dualspec
- Better rewarding foundry and foundry pvp maps
- Custom PvP leagues with leaderboards instead of the current 'matchmaking'.
- Armory
- make jumping cost stamina (to reduce hopping in pvp)
Obviously that alternative is more appealing to rogues rather than having stealth depleted, but in reality, while it seems fair, I don't think it would be enough being implemented as you say. I would simply only land the flurry of hits from DF on my target while stealthed, allowing myself to stay immune for the duration they can actually see me and only use COS sparingly or out of stealth. Not to mention, any stealth loss from hits taken during that immunity window could be compensated with +30% stealth gear. Then again, even if they made attacks deplete stealth, then we could all just wait it out and time it so that we only use DF at the end of stealth or something until it is a 1v1 scenario against something like a DC or to where they are depleted health a bit to and you don't need the perma stealth for 1v1.
Personally I was surprised they even replied with the idea of making attacks drain stealth due to the massive backlash which caused that idea not to get implemented months ago. If they decided not to do it then, I am not sure why the would try to resurrect that idea after leaving it for so long unless it could be made more viable by +30% stealth.
We'll see what happens though.