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since u do not want to make stronger shiled on gf why not to add some utily on it
warpet
Member Posts: 1,969 Arc User
one of my ideas is when mobs or players hit gf shiled they recive weaken buff which can stack 3 times and with each stack they take 4% more damage for 5 sec this would make tank gf a lot more wanted in dungeons and force ppl in pvp to think a bit before just few hiting shield in pvp
other idea is when shield break it makes aoe silance cloud for 3 sec
other idea is when shield break it makes aoe silance cloud for 3 sec
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The guards inability to defend more then 5 attacks before breaking leaving the GF defenseless!
The GF has ridiculously long animations locking an already stupidly slow character in a spot even longer leaving him open to CC during the animations you could practically go make some toast by the time they activate!
GF has the lowest DPS in the game albeit maybe DC, so the Mighty Tank does just a little more dps then the dedicated healer?
The GF lacks an AOE attack in a DOT form most his time is guarded doing at wills for pathetic damage, he needs an AOE bleed!
Gf lack of threat needing to attack all mobs individually while marked to create more threat is a poor mechanic, not to mention the TAB ability being the worst in the game atm... TAB ability should either auto taunt everything on a CD, or TAB should enable disable threat generation giving the GF the ability to go DPS.
Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
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~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
DPS Mode: ( No threat Generation / No +5 AC ) Changes to + 10% Crit - + 5% Power
Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
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~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
I am not sure what you mean by "daily falling from grace". As far as I can tell, Villian's Menace still does incredible aoe, allows superior kiting to any other class when needed, provides a CC safe "revive", provides a DPS buff, and allows you to not need guard to stay in some melee combats for more then long enough to shred trash (and leech enough AP to chain it, sometimes). Fighter's Recovery is still very useful as a utility. It was never a "method" of tanking in the first place.
There is a difference between "controlling aggro" and "face tanking everything in the room". GF is not an easy class. It requires much more work the "tanks" in other MMO's. Adapting to what helps the party most in a given fight is not simple. Among other things, you need a strong knowledge of the other classes abilities and rotations, so you can optimize what you control and when.
Please consider that maybe some of your issues come from trying to make GF do the wrong things, rather then figuring out what it can do and working to master that.
Yes, a buff would help a bit. One is coming. Learning to play the class to its strengths rather then what you want it to be will help you more then any buff.
- Copper
Gwf: up to fifty percent more dr, temp hp, increased atk speed
Cw : an EXTRA encounter power with additional abilities
Tr : invisibility and increased damage on all attacks
Dc : alternative at wills and increased and bonus powers on ALL encounter powers
Hr : completely changes functions of at wills and encounters giving awsome utility for many situations
Gf : plus 8 percent damage and some threat (that no gf actually needs)
Marking class feature is more powerful for gwf because of plus fifteen percent dmg feat.
Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
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~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
(TR in party) Try and maintain aggro/base to base contact on whatever the TR is hitting so that he can hit safely as well as receive combat advantage. Any decent TR willl usually focus on burning the elites that AOE will not clear, and you can make his efforts work even better. Keeping some GPF stacks on his target is also a good idea. Maybe you don't get as many sky numbers as you could, but the elites die faster and time for the run goes down. Using his target as the "pivot" for your dance can maintain this even if you are in AOE/aggro mode.
(DC in party) Healing will allow you to dance less and tank a little more. That said, don't forget to dance, as a DC won't let you room tank very long. You still want to take some hits on guard, (for AP gain), but you can stay on the pile a little longer then usual. This makes it a little easier to chain VM. Also, keeping the fight centralized helps the DC know where to put AS. Depending on other party composition, you may want to focus more on AOE.
(HR in party) Controlling aggro is a little more useful when working with a HR. It is worth shifting a little emphasis from ST dps on Elites to Aggro so that the HR can dump his potential DPS without dealing with too many adds. It is reasonable to try and maintain aggro in 6-7 targets, even with a HR spamming split shot. Past that, he is going to get some, so focus on keeping the most dangerous mobs aggro is wise, as a good HR can deal with 1-2 without having to run around in circles, and wounded trash running at him will die on the way, often as not.
(GWF in party) Honestly, you can't help GWF too much, and their play often hinders yours. That said, you can work to give them combat advantage/debuff their targets, as well as spend more time on ST, as they will shred trash enough that AOE is usually wasted. If the GWF likes to overextend himself to gain DPS (ie sprint to get to the fight first) you can't do much to support that other then clean up his bad pulls and pick him up when he bites of more then was wise, as needed. That said, if you really like the GWF or are tired of picking him up of the floor, you might safe frontline for when unstoppable ends (a skill you should have from PvP, but used backwards here.... lol)
(1 CW in party) Using your aggro management tools at the start of the fight may be wasted - as trash disappears fast. If you just "X" random things, it is frequently wasted. That said, the large things left at the end of a CW burst AOE rotation are worth controlling. Save your aggro stuff for later (like right after the shard, for instance) will clump targets again after the CW makes a mess and keep the CW attacking during their recharge period, rather then running around.
(2+ CW in party) AOE and aggro management are not as useful, usually. Instead, you can do a lot by buffing the CW's with ITTF and/or using KC to focus single targets that will live through a few AOE bursts. Doing this and keeping an eye on CW life-bars will do more then trying to compete with CW's for dps.
(Push zones) Bull Rush, Frontline, and ITTF allow you to act in support of a push effort (kicking high value targets/stragglers, buying time for cool-downs, and passing out AP to speed up the process), rather then standing there or make useless numbers in the air. It still helps if you take point on the way to the push site, as you having the aggro both allows CW's to "line up" repel better and gives them the time to cast Singu safely and cleanly.
(All the time) Maintaining aggro and inflicting damage is very possible, and often more effective, if done while moving around, using threatening rush and lunge as "dodges", as well as DPS, methods to gather aggro, and giving yourself space to safely use other encounters. If you feel you cannot use your encounters because guard is stopping you ... learn to dance.
If you look up and realize you always used your encounters on cool-down, maintained Aggro on everything large, gathered AP using guard while keeping it close enough to full to keep your power buff available for each AOE combo, spread GPF around, taken any small attacks in the nose to keep from wasting your guard/personal healing, thrown a cleave or six at a Singu pile, kept the red pointed away from your party, still accomplished respectable DPS (20% of party total being very possible) and not taken any real damage in the process, you may be a dancer. Maybe you should go get a Sunite Dye pack and paint your shield
If this is not what you accomplish as a GF, the good news is you have a better idea of what to work towards. Good luck and enjoy the ride
Personally, the thing I hate most about the state of the GF is how whiney most GF players are. Yes, we need a buff. Yes, it is coming. No, we are not useless even now. No, the fact that we can't room tank from behind our guard or do equal DPS to a few classes that are fairly OP at the moment does not mean giving us the power to do so would be a good idea at all.
You might consider that if you are not a skilled player speculating as to what kind of buff would be a good idea might be a waste of time. Many of the suggestions I see would end with GF being overpowered, frankly, because they are made without really understanding what the class can do.
Maybe, rather then making more posts centered on what you want to do, you might try posting about what you are doing and ask other GF's to offer their experiences and techniques. I suspect you might bet a better reaction.
Do you really think that you don't want players who have been maining GF, in good times and bad, for about a year (think a little about how much you think you might learn playing it for a year and assume some of us are almost as smart as you) to comment on your ideas? Do you really think that's a bad thing? Are you SURE you have it all figured out and there is nothing more to learn? If so, maybe you should just send PM's to the devs.
i would be more then happy to use shield only when red on ground but it is all the time red down i even get proned a lot of time with shield up on my gf it realy feels very useless even my itf spam and kc feels like i bring nothing and that would bring far more if they had another cw in team:( they need to buff up gf so we do not need to have 3xcw for cn or 2xcw for everything else to can finish
I get where a lot of your feelings are coming from. There are some issues with the GF, and the game overall atm. More then anything else, the social problems that some classes have are not fun at all. I started playing GF during a period where we got kicked from most pugs and couldn't even get invited to FH, as back then DC's kited it. Until DC's and TR's got nerfed, GF and GWF both had a very hard time.
Most players who started with GF and GWF re-rolled as one of the classes that were easier at the time. Some of us, maybe because we were crazy, didn't. We figured out new things; like kiting SP or FH or 3/4 CN, found ways to use the set bonuses to do weird and terrible things, and figured out how to get real DPS out of the GF. We did this so well that that a day came when the GF was working too well, and we got the nerf hammer. After that, a very badly considered decision was made involving paragon paths for GF and GWF, and we ended up back on the "bottom" - because someone failed to realize that giving many of our best powers to GWF with it's larger base weapon damage and existing functionality might be a bad idea.
Those of us who have taken that journey still manage to do ok in the current state of the game. We can do this because we have enough skill to not experience what a new GF does. Gear helps too. Still, even without great gear (atm, there is no "great gear" for GF, but that is another story) we don't have the issues that you clearly are having. For us, GF works ok.
I look in the forums and see new players complaining and feel both sympathy and contempt. It is not an easy class or an easy time for the class. I feel that. I promise. I also promise that there is a level of skill you can achieve which fixes most, but not all, of your complaints and you can develop it the hard way - just like we did -, re-roll something else that is easier to play - which may be right for you -, or (and this is crazy talk here, I know) you can listen a bit and ask questions and we can make your experience easier then ours was.
Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
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~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
Well, since I have half the damage output of a striker class, i'd expect to have at least double survivability, but that's not the case. Most classes have some defensive tools that makes them escape harm safely (teleport/dodge/unstoppable/stealth etc.), we have a shield instead and it falls in 5 hits of pretty much anything, that makes dodging skills actually a better "tanking" tool.
Also, our block doesn't work against some skills (namely the dragon wing AoE, but there are many other powers that can prone/knockback us even with a full guard meter), making us even less durable than other classes in some cases.
How's that? It's not like the other fresh 60s are all "GFs suck and we don't need them". They tend to need a tank more than anyone.
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
Start slow and have patience. Already told you people are in front MONTHS of gearing&farming. You have a long journey ahead. The more impatient you are, the more painful&frustrating it will be.
GS
One of the factors that causes many terrible issues in this game is GS. Because of the way diminishing returns works, the higher the GS, the less it matters. All classes fairly quickly reach a point where they have reached the useful levels of each stat, and the rest can, at best, go into Power and HP. Most classes hit 80-90% of their functionality at ~12k GS + an augment pet and some boons (for PvE anyway). After a while, at best, GS is more a measure of how much time (time being a somewhat useful measure of skill) a player has in the game. Of course, people playing alts that they geared with AD from their main, buying zen, and feeding farmers all can throw this off. This, mixed with the fact that most players know very little about GF and most of what they hear is negative (looking around the barracks it is easy to see where some of that comes from) makes it hard for GF players in a social sense. This is honestly the worst "disability" a new GF fights.
Feats
For GF, this is distorted further by the effects of the Conqueror capstone (+100% power if guard is at 100%). For example, I show a GS of 19.4k. Of this, about 4.5k is "bonus power". That means my "real" GS is 14.9k or so. Most players who do not have a GF do not understand this, and they will not ask for a "LF1M GF 13K GS excluding the effects of conqueror". IF you so choose, you can use this as a tool for inflating your value. In all honesty, this will make you less useful at lower GS, as Conqueror does not really come into its own until you have hit the point where you have reached all your other "stat" targets and are able to dump silly points into power. If you desire real ability to matter, at GS below 13k, I think you are better off going tactician. This is because the abilities from tactician do not scale from attributes as much (this being an advantage to a new 60 and later an issue for a geared 60).
Gear
At the moment, the BIS slot set for PvE is T1 - Knight's Captain. It is easily attainable by any GF, as you can get it entirely in T1 dungeons, where other players still generally want a "Tank" and, for the most part, you can still act like a tank, even with low GS. On the down side, most players who are not GF's have no clue what the KC set does, so you may be forced to educate them. Short of T2.5 items, the best weapon and shield (the scimitar and the spiked shield) can be bought for 8-12k AD each, even on a bad day. A full rack of 5's in your character (drops alone should provide most of these), a lesser soulforge (high priority), the PvP artifact (a painful grind we all had to do once), a lesser frost enchant (optional, but you will not beat it for "bang for your buck"), and a stone with whatever item drops you get from running PK in it (not optional) and you are in business; any party will see SERIOUS results from having you in the group, assuming you play to the strengths of your character, AND they are willing to look past your dps numbers.
Social
To find a place where people will see how much you are worth, you may need to develop a strong friends list/join a useful guild. When doing this, keep in mind that saying negative things about your class is not going to be a useful behavior. You will need to break past peoples ignorance and teach them about what a GF can really do. Linking a piece of KC and asking someone to calculate how much of a +dmg% that would be for them is one way of starting that process. Assuming you have a frost enchant and someone asks why, go show them in one of the campaign areas. Seeing is believing.
Past All That
The GF is about to change. A buff is coming. Past all that, even in a few weeks (using the above as a "guide") you will find yourself hitting 13-14k GS. You may decide to respec to Conqueror. You may decide you like PvP. You will have choices, and the resources to make things happen. I'm not going to try and tell you what the right answers are. Figuring that out is part of the fun, for me anyway, and I look forward to figuring out the effects of whatever buff comes.
There is a lot more I could write on the subject of the GF. I'm not the only one either. I have talked myself out of writing a guide many times. Usually, the killing blow to the idea has been looking in the Barracks and seeing all the negative attitudes. People telling me how our class sucks and it is not possible to succeed do not make me want to help them, much less give up hours of my free time to write them a guide, spend time in game to show them techniques, or answer their questions. I'm not going to fight to convince anyone that GF is fun or useful.
If you want help, bring a positive attitude, and I will do my best.
The only way for the developers to "fix" tanks is to either a. Completely redesign every boss encounter in the game b. Give tanks enough mitigation measures to compete with cw or c. Relegate them to "just another dps class." It looks like were going to get option c.
Telling players to bury their heads in the sand and work around glaring defects
In class design rendered obsolete by dungeon design does not help shape the future of this extremely broken class.
Because surviving depends almost entirely on avoiding red splats mobility is the king of defense, making any class with a dodge more capable of boss tanking than gf.
If you have 1 empty party slot there is nothing a gf can do in that slot that another class cant do bettter.
-Animations too long: TAB Threat is one example, Lunging strike animation is another, Shield Bash another and the list goes on.
-Shield is almost useless still.
-Armors outside of KC, Timeless and Grand Regent in end-game content, the others are of ZERO use as added "tankiness" is of ZERO use.
The fact of the matter is that PWE has built this game to be a turn-n-burn, requiring less skill and more DPS. That is the root of the problem here, which has far less to do with GF's than people realize.
To fix the GF class, they will ultimately need to make the game REQUIRE utility abilities of specific classes. While it was a bug/exploit/unintended ability, REQUIRING SLAM & MoC UTILITY abilities to run MC 3/3 & VT 2/2 was actually helpful for those 2 classes and ensured that every group took a GWF & a CW with those skills into those dungeons... Giving each class some piece of usefulness beyond the DPS oriented feel the game currently has is where we should be directing our attention.
I'm going to poke at the most glaring example of why you are wrong. FH. Take a party of 5 not-GF and replacing any of them with a GF makes the run easier. Next delve type 'GF lfg FH' in PE a few times don't even put in GS. Message bomb. That's actually how I got my KC, trading. Every time someone needed shoes I'd bargain for one FH followed by a T1 I was missing. Now I am not a great GF. But a really good GF can do the same thing for most dungeons.