test content
Logo
What is the Arc Client?
Install Arc
High Vizier vs Dread Legion
hrenvasia
Member Posts: 3 Arc User
I would like to ask the people who collected Dread Legion, as it is compared to High Vizier. whether to abandon the High Vizier in favor of the Dread Legion?
Post edited by hrenvasia on
0
Comments
It sucks not having Eye of the Storm, changes pretty much everything about my mage. Still think MoF is more fun.
Contagion - Cleric
Testament - Wizard
Pestilence - Ranger
Dominion - Paladin
NIGHTSWATCH
So you use the specific example I pointed out as being the only way HV works well for MoF to say that it works well for MoF. Well played sir, well played. You quoted my post, but clearly did not read it.
The point that Uurbs was making was that HV is still better. I have HV and do not stack crit and I have a 35 percent crit chance. You will hit diminishing returns on crit without enchanting for crit.
Hv is amazing set, best used by a spell storm, and I consider it essential to have one. I carry mine around just in case.
Dread legion is salvage. I got the achievement and refined it. Only use is for 2+2 for idiots that somehow thing 500 gs is better than increasing team dps by 20%. How does that make sense?
Everything you need to know about CW:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?780981-Chem-s-CW-Compendium-Everything-you-need-to-know
HV is the supreme PvE set. And that is unlikely to ever change.
EotS effectively grants you anywhere from 20 - 30 % crit (20 if you have 30% crit, less crit = more crit from eots) if you check ACT. That alone makes MotF path suited only for noobs, nvm the useless encounters/atwill.
Whenever I see a MotF mage I know he will be comparatively useless in the party.
lol'd here
My mistake then. I usually aim for about 30% crit chance, so whatever level of enchantment gets you there. There is no question High Vizier's is the best for a Spellstorm considering they have Eye of the Autocrit and need to slot virtually no crit chance at all to still arrive at a high overall crit chance. Does more power equal the added crit severity of MoF? Maybe, maybe not.
Everything you need to know about CW:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?780981-Chem-s-CW-Compendium-Everything-you-need-to-know
If you use azures on a CW you fail hard.
Do the math on power, it's so easy. Instead of just dishing out the same bad disinformation you got yourself.
If you need handholding during the process:
Click C, go to powers.
put your mouse over a power, take (low+high)/2 -> let that be avgdmg
write down your current power.
take off your offhand or something else with a notable number of power on it, NOT your mainhand.
write down difference in power.
divide difference in power by difference in avgdmg
get power:dmg ratio for a power
bonus commonsense step: get the % dmg increase 300 power gives for reference, compare it with 300 crit. And see why what you said is dumb.
then come back here with some useful informed opinion.
Let's not forget that those bigger tooltip damages also scale very nicely with debuffs and buffs which CWs do so well.
It's because of diminishing returns, and just rings/necklace aren't going to net enough crit rating on their own without some azure for a Master of Flame (If you're using HV anyway). Spellstorm obviously would build more for power simply because EotS lets you concentrate less on crit rating. At a certain point, the only way around diminishing returns is power. So you're not wrong, but saying using any azure period is bad on any CW build isn't really right either.
Telling people that more crit is always better is definately wrong though.
And telling peeps that you have to gem for crit is just as wrong. Diminishing returns on crit can easily be reached with the proper gear and charisma. Again, I am at 35 percent crit chance using HV, stone, and proper jewelry. This does not change if I were to go mof. Thus AGAIN, the added crit on the SW set does not make it better than HV for any build. In any build at the right gear level and combination, you only gem for what arp/power you need, and we all know our arp is screwed. You will reach diminishing returns on both recovery and crit from gear and boons alone. Then again maybe you made the mistake to go all in on wisdom instead of charisma.
3150 gives 17.5% crit chance
4340 gives 20% crit chance
(raw crit stat only)
I don't think it's worth going over 2350 in my opinion.
Here is the crit equation: (derived from statistical regression analysis with very low RSS - legit equation)
crit % = 28.8 * x^1.2 / (10186 + x^1.2)
Now use it to find out how useless crit is.
If you did everything right, you should have about 2000 crit from boons, some items, stone, etc.
How much crit with an Azure10 give me?
28.8 * 2300^1.2 / (10186 + 2300^1.2) - 28.8 * 2000^1.2 / (10186 + 2000^1.2)
= 1.21
300 crit giving me only 1.21% crit... How very useful...
Also keep in mind EotS actively degrades crit chance.
^This, doing the most damage has never been about soft caps and diminishing returns. It is simply where one stat will give you more damage than another.
wrongo, charisma doesn't count at all towards diminishing returns. Period. It's actually the reason to rig for charisma in the first place, obviously.
Oh, and I see you say 'with just a stone'. So your STONE is rigged for critical or what?
I'm not going to argue with you though, now that I know you're counting in cash shop items as 'just gear'.
I knew you weren't getting 2k crit chance off of rings and a necklace, that much is certain.
Don't turn this into "having a stone means you're P2W and you don't know what it's like for the rest of us." Convert ~400k AD into Zen and buy a stone. If you don't have an augment companion, you don't have a finished build and can't possibly comment on BiS enchantments.
That said, power stacking > crit stacking.
I'm not, I have a stone too but it's basically wearing an extra two rings and a necklace with six more rune slots. At least two of which are offensive, but easily five could be. I don't include that as 'just gear', it's 'gear plus extra'. That's at least 1320 extra GS right there, not including the actual gear you put in the slots.
Obviously stack power once you're at the soft cap for crit rating. That's blindingly obvious. Especially for a spellstorm mage who doesn't need any crit rating at all.
Stacking critical severity is like stacking power. It's just another path to the same end goal. Stacking critical severity doesn't require you to 'miss out' on any extra power, either.
I'm not saying stack critical rating up to 5000. I'll write this in capital letters, just so you know what I am saying.
IF YOU ARE A MOF, AND IF YOU ARE WEARING HIGH VIZIERS, YOU WILL WANT 2K CRIT RATING.
It doesn't matter where, or how, you get it.
As for HV vs. SW, I'd personally want to go with HV just for the added survivability/debuff. I tend to agree that HV's bonus is simply superior in general. SW is a decent enough set for T2, and does stack well for MoF's of all flavors, but the added life steal from SW is...a bit meh in my opinion when compared to +defense/-defense.
I'd only change that opinion if you reguarly run two CW. One MoF and one Spellstorm, one wearing SW and one wearing HV, would probably perform a little better than simply two HV.
By that logic vorpal is also cash shop item? AD and zen are interchangeable.
And it doesn't matter whether you have eots or not, you still want 2k crit because it will give dps, however you don't want to give up any power in the process of gaining 2k crit. So you use rings and necks with some crit on your stone and if it's the allure one (I use might) eldritch to help all the stats along.
If you did everything right and have the AD funds to do it right you end up with something like this:
High Vizier.
6-7 k power.
2k crit
2k arpen
3 - 3.5 k recovery
At that point all you need to join the elite ranks is brains.
In it's own way, yes. However you can obtain a vorpal without ever converting one single zen, while you can not obtain an Ioun without doing so (without outside help, anyway). Semantics. It's simply easier to get to target caps on your stats with a stone. You will not be able to get to those caps on all your stats without a stone. I'm agreeing with you, you just apparently take issue with how I agree.
Again, I agree, but I see plenty of spellstorm mages who completely ignore crit rating in favor of another 2-3k in power. Maybe they're doing it wrong, talk to them about it. I don't really care, I disliked Spellstorm outside of EotS in general and really enjoy MoF's at-will/encounter/daily selection more.
The amusing part is that your setup looks exactly the same as a MoF with the exact same gear. It's the difference in critting more often vs. critting harder. MoF will always crit harder than spellstorm, spellstorm will always crit more than MoF. You can get those exact same stat numbers off of SW set, just to point it out. Does -450 defense = an extra 18% crit damage rating? And would you deny that having both in a group would be a good thing?
You don't appear to know what a vizier set truly does.
The 450 defense tooltip is <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>, some pwoers give you defense but it hardly matters.
Most of your encounters turn into 10-20 % debuffs with 30% being the cap. 3/3 HV debuff stacks give 30% more dps for the whole party. Using any other set is simply stupid looking at those numbers.
Also. 18% more crit severity does NOT equal 18% more crit damage. Do the math please. Real world math, not imaginary math.
Also, lets assume fantasy world where 18% severity is really 18% crit dmg (w/e that means). 20% more crit probability will still be better.
...the -450 defense attached to control encounters is the debuff that increases damage, which is also the +450 defense buff to yourself...so they are the same thing. The debuff is also a buff.
And yes, 18% more critical severity is 18% more critical damage. The damage the critical strike does is increased by 18%. They are the same thing. By definition. I'm sorry you want to argue semantics?
You are right that a higher chance is probably better, although there will be a mathematical balance point between the two that I am uninterested in.
You don't need two HV CW's in an instance to debuff armor, at a certain point a buff to crit severity that's group wide will result in more group damage. Super obvious, but something you're ignoring.
+18% crit sev is most assuredly NOT +18% crit damage. With that being said, you're forgoing flat +% damage buffs with both MoF and Rene in favor of +crit sev buffs which is obviously worse because the +damage affects all of your attacks and will do significantly more than just raising your crit damage, even if it was a flat increase to your crits. HV at 3 stacks causes a 20% damage increase on that mob. That's way better than +18% crit sev to the party that's only up 50% of the time (I assume the ICD isn't fixed yet?).
I'll link Stox's explanation on crit sev for you from his guide:
"People really need to learn how to calculate vorpal added damage as well, so here you go folks. P. Vorpal = 50% crit severity. This doesn't mean you do 50% more damage or as most people seem to believe 20-30% damage. It is simply your base crit severity 175 (100 + 75% crit severity) + p. vorpal 50 = 225. 225/175 = 1.2857. So this is your damage increase from a perfect vorpal hit, 28.57%. Now you multiply this by your crit chance to get your overall damage increase. Note that because some of our skills do not crit, they do not gain anything from vorpal and you will need to test how much your crit chance is with a parser such as ACT because of Eye of the Storm. Your character sheet number is not reliable. So in my case I show a 28% chance to crit on the character sheet, but because of Eye of the Storm I normally average 48% crits. So damage increase for me with p. vorpal would be 28.57% * .48 = 13.71%."
You can stack all the crit sev you want, it doesn't mean <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> if you don't have the consistent crits from EotS and power scales way higher in base damage with buffs/debuffs (which is a much more effective way of gaining higher crit damage in the first place).
Thinking there is only one way to play any class is just narrow minded, and i hate that.
Also, thinking HV + vorpal is the only way to go is just simply wrong. I run regularly with CWs from all 3 trees, both paragons, and multiple enchants. The best group tends to be 1 MoF/2SS; Vorpal+terror+plaguefire, renegades to better on the clear, thaums do better at draco. After many runs and many ACTs i can say this with a large amount of confidence.
I've run CN with some of the best CWs in the game, and the DPS is impressive, but to think that DoT does nothing, debuff does nothing, control does nothing is like driving an american sports car - all straight ahead speed and no handling. You need a balance to make the best party.
If MoF is so "useless" why can I get a CN group when I want to? Why do people ask to run with me? I guess I am utterly useless. Thank you,
Everything you need to know about CW:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?780981-Chem-s-CW-Compendium-Everything-you-need-to-know
Lol, I think it's funny that you've taken personal offense to something that wasn't even directed at you. Please point out exactly where I said Vorpal is the only enchant to use and DoTs, debuffs and control are useless? I don't believe any of those things, I just think that MoF is useless in every situation except Draco (multiple high health targets for DoTs to tick on) and that makes it garbage because we overgear everything now and Draco is easy with a good group so I go SS, HV, Thaum to clear trash faster. My "rant" was directed at someone who I've seen constantly advocating stacking tons of crit sev without even understanding how it works, so I was explaining the error in his thinking.
As to why you get groups? Because good players are good and they'll always find friends to run dungeons with. I've been outdamaging 14k P. Vorp CWs since I was a 9k lesser flaming ****. Most people are terrible so the good players stand out and stick together.