A DPS classes job is to do as much damage as possible WITHOUT drawing aggro!
This means, the max damage you SHOULD do, is limited by how much threat the Tank can put up.
Which also means the better the tank, or the semi-tank role whomever the class is, does his job, the higher the threshold of damage output.
Unfortunately, PuGs are full of half-baked shoddy build people that's not fully PvE optimized, nor PvP optimized, that can't grab aggro, that can't support team members, that's not a real tank, nor a real DPS, not even dedicated utility, and then sucks at PvP for an added bonus... and then starts blaming other individuals for team wipes and failures.
Most usually, especially in a game like NW where the dungeon/instance content is generally super easy, taking the aggro is simply a matter of noticing one of your DPS guys is in trouble, and burping at the mob. Either that, or any smart TR could momentarily face-tank the aggrod mob to give a guy a breather.
But nooooooo.. classic target fixation. Mob there. Me hit. Where'd everyone go? Why's everyone dead?
That's how usually it goes with PuGs.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
2. Most PuGs are clueless in mutual support = rarely supports their HR, leaves it to die, and then thinks, "Wow, so sucky" -- when it is actually they, who are sucky and have no clue in the concept of "team play" and "mutual support".
Ridiculous argument. There's a reason why cleric players will ask rangers to stand in the circle, near the wizard or behind the GWF, unfortunately, the stupid pet or class feature gives them bonus damage with range. The reason is quite simple: My cleric's rotation in dungeons (except VT) is: sunburst, divine glow, astral shield, astral seal. which means there's only one way to be healed: at close range, within my sunburst radius at the very least, or to deal sustained damage continuously without taking a lot of damage (astral seal is good, but it's definitely not a lifesaver).
If I'm supporting a ranger, i have to remove from my spellbar one of my two best heals or to slot healing word instead of divine glow, which means an average 20-25% damage loss for the rest of the team. So, I have to use a single target heal because Mr Ranger doesn't want to stay at melee range with his bow, and the team will spend 20% more time killing things. Which means more time to stand in red, to take damage, and die.
Since rangers don't do enough damage for me to make me accept to have a dedicated heal for them, I simply don't play with them or let them die. If they want heals, they come into my circle, it's as simple as that.
Aggro is a natural expression of how much of a threat you are, to the mob. If a DPS is not drawing aggro, then he's not doing his job right. If a HR constantly draws aggro, then the ones who should grab the aggro are also, not doing their job right.
(ps) who says I'm a HR?
Edit: didn't see that one.
Nope. It's rangers pulling everything, including mobs that weren't pulled by other class able to control or tank them. I've had a lot of issues in spellplague because rangers think it's funny to hit everything with split shot. Of course, they will have the initial aggro. Of course they'll keep it while they keep trying to kill this extra group.
Many rangers don't understand why they have aggro, but when i tell them I have SEEN them hitting mobs they pulled, they simply don't believe me or say they can't play without split shot. Next time I'll tell that kind of guy I can't play with dedicated heals for people who don't want to play without messing everything up.
The only classes allowed to pull are the CW, the GF or the DC (because he can heal what he pulls if he isn't supid). If a GWF or a ranger pulls, other classes will have to clean the mess most of the times.
Ridiculous argument. There's a reason why cleric players will ask rangers to stand in the circle, near the wizard or behind the GWF, unfortunately, the stupid pet or class feature gives them bonus damage with range. The reason is quite simple: My cleric's rotation in dungeons (except VT) is: sunburst, divine glow, astral shield, astral seal. which means there's only one way to be healed: at close range, within my sunburst radius at the very least, or to deal sustained damage continuously without taking a lot of damage (astral seal is good, but it's definitely not a lifesaver).
If I'm supporting a ranger, i have to remove from my spellbar one of my two best heals or to slot healing word instead of divine glow, which means an average 20-25% damage loss for the rest of the team. So, I have to use a single target heal because Mr Ranger doesn't want to stay at melee range with his bow, and the team will spend 20% more time killing things. Which means more time to stand in red, to take damage, and die.
Since rangers don't do enough damage for me to make me accept to have a dedicated heal for them, I simply don't play with them or let them die. If they want heals, they come into my circle, it's as simple as that.
Edit: didn't see that one.
Nope. It's rangers pulling everything, including mobs that weren't pulled by other class able to control or tank them. I've had a lot of issues in spellplague because rangers think it's funny to hit everything with split shot. Of course, they will have the initial aggro. Of course they'll keep it while they keep trying to kill this extra group.
Many rangers don't understand why they have aggro, but when i tell them I have SEEN them hitting mobs they pulled, they simply don't believe me or say they can't play without split shot. Next time I'll tell that kind of guy I can't play with dedicated heals for people who don't want to play without messing everything up.
The only classes allowed to pull are the CW, the GF or the DC (because he can heal what he pulls if he isn't supid). If a GWF or a ranger pulls, other classes will have to clean the mess most of the times.
I've seen equally stupid thing from a lot of other classes, ranging from DCs with hard-wired brains into a one-pattern symphony, to a CW that's pitiful without any kind of meatshield.
So tell me, from all the choices of stupids and idiots we see every day in PuGs, why should HRs be any different?
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
I've seen equally stupid thing from a lot of other classes, ranging from DCs with hard-wired brains into a one-pattern symphony, to a CW that's pitiful without any kind of meatshield.
So tell me, from all the choices of stupids and idiots we see every day in PuGs, why should HRs be any different?
i already answered this one. Dumb players of other classes get carried they dont help the group but they have to go out of their way to hinder the group.
dumb hrs hinder the group right off the bat just by spamming splitshot.
i already answered this one. Dumb players of other classes get carried they dont help the group but they have to go out of their way to hinder the group.
well ill have to disagree here, those players who tend to knock stuff around breaking up the bunching hinder the groups dps just as much, and a badly played cw will have the same issues as a hr as theyll have a bunch of agro on them and they will be porting and kiting everything to survive... i cant tell u how much i hate when im playing melee to have to be chasing spread out mobs around.
Its bad play not the class itself, coz when i play my ranger i often end up hating other rangers too coz of that **** kiting sniper playstyle as i tend to play more midrange and stay more with the group and kite in circles-sideways if i have too... not backwards.
btw someone mentioned shard being nullified by roots coz it goes through them.... try hurling the shard when the roots ruberbanding has settled down a sec later, hell maybe even coi them before so everything is debuffed, and ull see how u hit everything... dont worry their not going anyware and those roots WILL actually help the partys dps keeping them bunched up a little longer... even after the shard knockback.
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jmikezMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited February 2014
i never run with HR on DK greed runs. the moment a t2 HR item drops.... especially the cap. they go auto ninja loot mode.
Jeanne -- 21.8k PvP CW
Michael -- 21.1k PvP Sent GWF
morePewPewlessQQ -- 20k Pvp/PvE HR
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luckycharms1979Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 16Arc User
edited February 2014
I love playing my HR but in a group I understand that I need to be a tactician and use my powers in an appropriate way to contribute to the party. I personally like to stand by the CW or the DC so that my support powers can be of the most benefit to the TEAM.
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fentfvMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
btw someone mentioned shard being nullified by roots coz it goes through them.... try hurling the shard when the roots ruberbanding has settled down a sec later
Just don't use the root. It's absolutely unnecessary in a group with a good CW or two. CWs aren't watching to see the rubberbanding. They are in their rotation. Very few things make a CW angrier than seeing their shard (which crits a ton and does upwards of 35K+ damage to *everything* in the vicinity) pass right through a block of mobs because a HR thinks he's a "controller."
I can't count how many times I've looked around to see an HR squishy-shoe dodging a pair of adds that he pulled out of a group of 8-10 mobs that the rest of the group is fighting. The HR will *not* come to the rest of the group so that he can be healed or someone else can pull back the aggro. That's that thing that angers most people about an HR. That's not poor aggro control by the rest of the group. It's the HR that's causing problems.
When 10 mobs are neatly packed and the HR "accidentally" pulls 2 or 3, then starts running around like a chicken with his head cut off, I will not help until the main group is dead. That rule goes whether I'm playing my CW, my GWF, my DC, or my GF.
I was in a group recently where the DC was friends with the HR. So every time the HR did the stupid HR thing, the DC would run away from the main group to span divine heals on the HR. The rest of the group, if we were lucky enough to get a circle, got an orange one because the DC had no Divine. Needless to say, I didn't stay in that group very long.
Which also means the better the tank, or the semi-tank role whomever the class is, does his job, the higher the threshold of damage output.
Unfortunately, PuGs are full of half-baked shoddy build people that's not fully PvE optimized, nor PvP optimized, that can't grab aggro, that can't support team members, that's not a real tank, nor a real DPS, not even dedicated utility, and then sucks at PvP for an added bonus... and then starts blaming other individuals for team wipes and failures.
Most usually, especially in a game like NW where the dungeon/instance content is generally super easy, taking the aggro is simply a matter of noticing one of your DPS guys is in trouble, and burping at the mob. Either that, or any smart TR could momentarily face-tank the aggrod mob to give a guy a breather.
But nooooooo.. classic target fixation. Mob there. Me hit. Where'd everyone go? Why's everyone dead?
That's how usually it goes with PuGs.
haha so true, yes!
But, to add a bit of fairness, most DPS players (in PUGS) have the usual wrong response to grabbing aggro, which is: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZVbVvZqBJM
Personaly on my HR, if i grab aggro (which happens ALL the time, even if i count to 3 and only do single target damage)
i decide if i either a) can nuke the mob down within the next 3-4 seconds, in that case i simply keep hitting it, or b)
should run up to the tank, and leave the mob there by resetting aggro using forest walk.
problem with B is thought, that the "Tank" usualy does not get whats going on, and i get the mob back as soon as Forest walk drops...
Most people simply have an horrible underdeveloped Situational awareness
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dethsdezynMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited February 2014
I recently respec'd my HR to a Nature build and I could not be happier. yes, it does slightly less dmg than the other HR builds, BUT the party buff's are totally worth it; free dodges, temp HP, mitigation and CA and added defense and healing. Definitely a nice addition to a party. I have already had a few different DC's tell me that it has made a difference and others in the party has noticed the increased dmg the HR buffs provide and the less dmg they seem to take overall. it takes quite the manipulation of QER and Tab to keep the buffs going but it is very fun to play IMO. (and I am not NEARLY as squishy as I was on my previous build). It has also gotten me to switch between melee and ranged more frequently. Creating for me, a more enjoyable playing experience.
It follows therefore, that this young man will be as unfeeling, as unthinking as the dead, until the day he joins them.
Just don't use the root. It's absolutely unnecessary in a group with a good CW or two. CWs aren't watching to see the rubberbanding. They are in their rotation. Very few things make a CW angrier than seeing their shard (which crits a ton and does upwards of 35K+ damage to *everything* in the vicinity) pass right through a block of mobs because a HR thinks he's a "controller."
Look, Its not about control its about keeping stuff bunched tight for longer which is better dps for EVERYONE (tr and gwf are gona be pretty happy about that too).
Its just as bad that i dont know ur mechanics as if u dont know mine. I could say its just as annoying that ur shards knockback pushes everything off my rain of arrows which could possibly be even more dps than the shard if everything was kept under it for its duration.
So maybe instead of mindlessly mashing buttons "following their rotation" they could try to have some awareness of whats going on, hold back the hurling part of the shard for a second (while they cast something else) so both him and and the hr synergise better as the roots wont be a problem for him and his shard wont be a problem for the hrs rain and they would actually clear the group faster.
I can't count how many times I've looked around to see an HR squishy-shoe dodging a pair of adds that he pulled out of a group of 8-10 mobs that the rest of the group is fighting. The HR will *not* come to the rest of the group so that he can be healed or someone else can pull back the aggro. That's that thing that angers most people about an HR. That's not poor aggro control by the rest of the group. It's the HR that's causing problems.
When 10 mobs are neatly packed and the HR "accidentally" pulls 2 or 3, then starts running around like a chicken with his head cut off, I will not help until the main group is dead. That rule goes whether I'm playing my CW, my GWF, my DC, or my GF.
Im sorry to hear u've had bad experiences with hrs, but really ive seen that sort of behaviour in all of the 3 squishy dps classes... imho its just lack of experience running dungeons, people panic and instead of heading towards ur mates or the satral shield they run off to try to save their but ending up being more of a hinderance than if they actually just died and waited for a res.
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cartivaMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited February 2014
First, I have never been asked to leave a queue because of running my HR toon. When I run my HR in groups I switch out split shot for rapid shot so as not to pull trash mobs. I also run fox's cunning and try to cast near cleric or Cw as I move around. I also run commanding shot. With aimed shot and commanding shot on Bosses I can hit for 25K consistently. I have an archery build with extra points to nature, T2 gear and critical strike and HP enhances. You also have to move continuously while trying to not dump a mob on top of the DC or CW. If you do anything to attract/hit trash in final battles you will spend your time running for your life and waiting for someone to pull them off you. All classes have issues dealing with certain circumstances. Take the time to learn how to use your strengths and work around your weaknesses.
Keira Taletreader 60 GF 13.9 GS Erdan Loreweaver 60 CW 11.3 GS Mika Hawklight 60 DC 11.5 GS Rukia Stealthfoot 60 TR 11.5 GS Ka D'Argo 60 HR 13.7 GS Ivan Ironfist 60 GWF 11.6 GS
First, I have never been asked to leave a queue because of running my HR toon. When I run my HR in groups I switch out split shot for rapid shot so as not to pull trash mobs. I also run fox's cunning and try to cast near cleric or Cw as I move around. I also run commanding shot. With aimed shot and commanding shot on Bosses I can hit for 25K consistently. I have an archery build with extra points to nature, T2 gear and critical strike and HP enhances. You also have to move continuously while trying to not dump a mob on top of the DC or CW. If you do anything to attract/hit trash in final battles you will spend your time running for your life and waiting for someone to pull them off you. All classes have issues dealing with certain circumstances. Take the time to learn how to use your strengths and work around your weaknesses.
While there are some fights that require single target. For example the last fight of FH you want to just hit the boss while someone kites. Taking split shot off your bar seems a very poor idea. You are a ranged striker class. Your job is to aoe down the mobs swiftly. You will get aggro sometimes but you have to learn how to move those mobs back to the melee pile and in a good group those few mobs won't be alive long anyways.
Yeah have to agree with charononus, removing split is severly gimping ur dps. just learn how to position/charge it so u dont pull extra stuff and learn to manage what u actually do pull.... which is always easier if ur near ur teammates.
Just don't use the root. It's absolutely unnecessary in a group with a good CW or two. CWs aren't watching to see the rubberbanding. They are in their rotation. Very few things make a CW angrier than seeing their shard (which crits a ton and does upwards of 35K+ damage to *everything* in the vicinity) pass right through a block of mobs because a HR thinks he's a "controller."
Ah so this is the name of this very annoying spells that make me want to throw my shards at the HR when i play my wizard? Well this is indeed another reason not to invite rangers in parties.
Here is a little summary of why I don't want to invite them so far:
- they scatter everything. Always pull more than they should and then spread mobs.
- they dodge when 2-3 mobs are chasing them. That's so far the only class i've seen doing that. Other classes players understood long ago that they had to run to the team and wait for support. Rangers simply run away because lol.
- they ruin other classes rotations.
- as a cleric, i can buff party members' damabe at melee range by more than 40% when it's required, but rangers don't want to stand near them because they think being a sniper is more fun. So much buffing wasted...
- they think older classes should adapt to their "game style" and simply don't want to adapt their characters to existing groups, habits, rotations, and way to deal with stuff.
Here is why most rangers are a burden in a team. Some aren't, because they simply don't try to play the way they want but instead adapt to existing groups. They are rare though. They remind me the first CW players during the first month of neverwinter: ray on mastery, chill strike, icy rays, conduit of ice during adds fights. All single target and no control not to draw too much attention. Who whould do that today? I guess we'll have to wait for most HRs players to either stop playing or learn to play their class without pissing off every single team member.
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inthefade462Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited February 2014
- they think older classes should adapt to their "game style" and simply don't want to adapt their characters to existing groups, habits, rotations, and way to deal with stuff.
Here is why most rangers are a burden in a team. Some aren't, because they simply don't try to play the way they want but instead adapt to existing groups. They are rare though. They remind me the first CW players during the first month of neverwinter: ray on mastery, chill strike, icy rays, conduit of ice during adds fights. All single target and no control not to draw too much attention. Who whould do that today? I guess we'll have to wait for most HRs players to either stop playing or learn to play their class without pissing off every single team member.
this in a nutshell.
That you want to impede the rest of the group so that you can come in slightly higher yet still 4th place on paingiver at the expense of everyone else's damage and clear times is why nobody wants HRs in groups.
I've noticed that a properly played HR should almost always top Paingiver and/or executioner assuming group is at similar gear scores. If you're not first, or worse if you're 3rd or lower, then you are doing something horribly wrong. I have played with good HRs and they always top paingiver, even with 2 CWs or a GWF in a party.
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inthefade462Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
I've noticed that a properly played HR should almost always top Paingiver and/or executioner assuming group is at similar gear scores. If you're not first, or worse if you're 3rd or lower, then you are doing something horribly wrong. I have played with good HRs and they always top paingiver, even with 2 CWs or a GWF in a party.
I've yet to see any HR even come close. At lower gear scores like t1 its possible, I know my HR rocked during the leveling up dungeons but that's due to the power of split shot being given at level 2. but as the other classes scale in power i've yet to see a HR keep up. I'd love to see some combat logs or screen shots of a high end HR in a high end group doing well.
Also seems mathematically impossible for at least Executioner as the HR lacks the amount of unlimited target cap abilities of CW.
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cartivaMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Yeah have to agree with charononus, removing split is severly gimping ur dps. just learn how to position/charge it so u dont pull extra stuff and learn to manage what u actually do pull.... which is always easier if ur near ur teammates.
I agree with both you and Charononus, but split shot is situational for me. Sorry if I made it sound otherwise, but If we are on the OP and talking epic pug runs and the group has issue with the way an hr is aggro'ing. Then less AoE will help a first toon player until they learn. Guild or experienced structured group is different. I have done pugs where I was kitting (if you could call it that) ads until they could be picked off. Ya, almost poked my finger through the "w" key.
There are times when split shot works, like during the dungeon run to cut down mobs quickly, but boss fights, IMO, are better with rapid. If you consider the time it takes to charge split to narrowest (most dmg, least pull) you can get off 3 or 4 rapids for equal damage. Plus it will usually only pull a couple adds on me, which is manageable. If you start dropping StS and Split shot and thorns next thing all the adds and the boss come charging down on you while CW and TR big hits swish through the air. Some adds that charge cancel split charge so you are quick shooting split which does little damage and pulls everything. I don't think there is one set "gets them all" deal. Each dungeon and group requires a different strat.
I wonder if some peoples problem with HRs is that they are knocking CW and TR down the pain giver list. Just a thought, no evidence to back it up, yet.
Keira Taletreader 60 GF 13.9 GS Erdan Loreweaver 60 CW 11.3 GS Mika Hawklight 60 DC 11.5 GS Rukia Stealthfoot 60 TR 11.5 GS Ka D'Argo 60 HR 13.7 GS Ivan Ironfist 60 GWF 11.6 GS
I've yet to see any HR even come close. At lower gear scores like t1 its possible, I know my HR rocked during the leveling up dungeons but that's due to the power of split shot being given at level 2. but as the other classes scale in power i've yet to see a HR keep up. I'd love to see some combat logs or screen shots of a high end HR in a high end group doing well.
Also seems mathematically impossible for at least Executioner as the HR lacks the amount of unlimited target cap abilities of CW.
Most of my experience is based off of T2 dungeons and one run of Castle Never. At "pre made" level its a little unfair given that HRs are a newer class and it takes a long time to gear up to level 8 enchants and BiS gear/ perfect Vorpal/ Tricked out stone of allure.
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cartivaMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
I've yet to see any HR even come close. At lower gear scores like t1 its possible, I know my HR rocked during the leveling up dungeons but that's due to the power of split shot being given at level 2. but as the other classes scale in power i've yet to see a HR keep up. I'd love to see some combat logs or screen shots of a high end HR in a high end group doing well.
Also seems mathematically impossible for at least Executioner as the HR lacks the amount of unlimited target cap abilities of CW.
My HR is in T2 gear, stone, 14K GS, achery build. During the skirmish events I was one or two consistantly on dmg dealt and kills. In Epic runs with a skilled group i am usually third sometimes 2nd. If I think about it. I will grab some screen shots.
Keira Taletreader 60 GF 13.9 GS Erdan Loreweaver 60 CW 11.3 GS Mika Hawklight 60 DC 11.5 GS Rukia Stealthfoot 60 TR 11.5 GS Ka D'Argo 60 HR 13.7 GS Ivan Ironfist 60 GWF 11.6 GS
I wonder if some peoples problem with HRs is that they are knocking CW and TR down the pain giver list. Just a thought, no evidence to back it up, yet.
My problem with most HR's is that they don't top the paingiver list or anywhere close. Lately when I pug I get hr's that are barely beating cleric damage. I have an HR and there is no reason for their damage to be so poor except bad play.
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cartivaMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
My problem with most HR's is that they don't top the paingiver list or anywhere close. Lately when I pug I get hr's that are barely beating cleric damage. I have an HR and there is no reason for their damage to be so poor except bad play.
I have noticed in epic pugs a lot of the players with green and blues few enhance with GS at minimum for dungeon. I would imagine that having something to do with it. In groups with second HR I have noticed some bad playing/power selection on their part.
I noticed my HR didn't start to perform well until my stats were in the 2,500 plus range Defense and deflect is tough to get up without giving up Crt, HP, or Rcvy, so scraped ideal of long term survival banging it out for burning down quickly and moving. I think the HR is the most challenging to play right (not that I am always right) next to my DC.
Keira Taletreader 60 GF 13.9 GS Erdan Loreweaver 60 CW 11.3 GS Mika Hawklight 60 DC 11.5 GS Rukia Stealthfoot 60 TR 11.5 GS Ka D'Argo 60 HR 13.7 GS Ivan Ironfist 60 GWF 11.6 GS
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lucidproph3cyMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
My problem with most HR's is that they don't top the paingiver list or anywhere close. Lately when I pug I get hr's that are barely beating cleric damage. I have an HR and there is no reason for their damage to be so poor except bad play.
Funny that you mention that. Yesterday I just vote kicked a HR that had 14k GS and was being out damaged by the cleric at 13k. There are just way to many bad players in this class that gives them a bad name. If a HR does no damage, doesn't heal the party, doesn't tank, and doesn't cc then what the point in keeping them around.
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dethsdezynMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Funny that you mention that. Yesterday I just vote kicked a HR that had 14k GS and was being out damaged by the cleric at 13k. There are just way to many bad players in this class that gives them a bad name. If a HR does no damage, doesn't heal the party, doesn't tank, and doesn't cc then what the point in keeping them around.
You'd dont mean all in one character right? ;-)
It follows therefore, that this young man will be as unfeeling, as unthinking as the dead, until the day he joins them.
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inthefade462Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited February 2014
Most of my experience is based off of T2 dungeons and one run of Castle Never. At "pre made" level its a little unfair given that HRs are a newer class and it takes a long time to gear up to level 8 enchants and BiS gear/ perfect Vorpal/ Tricked out stone of allure.
Obviously by high end I meant at "pre-made" level (this is a thing?) that is a friend/guild/lfg group formed before hand and queuing as a group. Like I said at t1 level which is all random solo queuing is then i'm sure HRs are fine. Bunch of inexperienced new players with random gs 6700-10k or whatever nowadays with the gs bloat of course HRs do ok damage all they have to do is spam split shot. nobody cares if HR gets close to top dmg in a 7k gs queue pug, i'm sure they are fine. Just like they are fine in leveling up dungeons but when you are beyond the pure newb level the HR seems to fall behind.
As far as gear this is a non-issue. HRs were lvl 60 and 14k+ rank 10s and perfect enchants day 1. Only thing that takes time is sharandar boons but that can and was rushed with relic fragments. I'm talking about high end groups (not even really that high end, just avg+) Obviously people who's first character was an HR and has only been playing the game since December will take time to build enchants but thats the least of their problems, they are still learning how to play the game. they aren't who we are discussing.
In any avg+ groups with equal gear HR's spot on Paingiver chart is 3rd or 4th depending on how many CW/GWFs are in party. HR's keep saying all the time that they top the charts and they crush CWs etc but i've yet to see this once you're past the point where GWD and MD are "hard".
My HR is in T2 gear, stone, 14K GS, achery build. During the skirmish events I was one or two consistantly on dmg dealt and kills. In Epic runs with a skilled group i am usually third sometimes 2nd. If I think about it. I will grab some screen shots.
3rd place vs a bunch of other 14k gs ppl sounds about what i'm seeing. Thats single set T2 gear, r7s, and 1 green/blue artifact with no gs pets and still working on a few boons. That is the baseline avg for gs.
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cartivaMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited February 2014
I was thinking about this last night as I was running a GWF that I just started and seeing some HRs along side me. I think the hybrid thing is what is hurt HR's reputation in general. It is a nice concept and fun to play that way. It really isn't functional after level 20 or so. You are splitting feats between trees and not maxing anything out. Even if you maxed out melee stats, you don't match TR and GWF on dmg and don't have the armor to stay in it like GWF and GF. Your only choice is nature for buffs or Archery for DPS. Now every classes powers do some buffing and clerics buffs are better. A buff only is a waste of a slot in the butt stomp epic dungeons. The only logical path is archery with leftover into nature.
Keira Taletreader 60 GF 13.9 GS Erdan Loreweaver 60 CW 11.3 GS Mika Hawklight 60 DC 11.5 GS Rukia Stealthfoot 60 TR 11.5 GS Ka D'Argo 60 HR 13.7 GS Ivan Ironfist 60 GWF 11.6 GS
To help aggro problems and mobs scattering to ranger, I like to make sure my group implements a little extra CC over DPS. Also if clerics stands in front of HR / CW ranged DPS, there is a technique I use.
1. When you see mobs aggro them and run toward you, Tab Divinity, Sunburst Knockback toward the rest of the group of mobs
2. Immediately use chains of lightning under where they will land (hopefully with the rest of the mobs)
3. Watch mobs stay controlled and DPS continue from not having HR / CW run around.
4. Rinse and repeat.
This tactic works VERY well. In fact these days I don't usually take chains off my encounters unless I need to use healing word for ranged reasons.
I was thinking about this last night as I was running a GWF that I just started and seeing some HRs along side me. I think the hybrid thing is what is hurt HR's reputation in general. It is a nice concept and fun to play that way. It really isn't functional after level 20 or so. You are splitting feats between trees and not maxing anything out. Even if you maxed out melee stats, you don't match TR and GWF on dmg and don't have the armor to stay in it like GWF and GF. Your only choice is nature for buffs or Archery for DPS. Now every classes powers do some buffing and clerics buffs are better. A buff only is a waste of a slot in the butt stomp epic dungeons. The only logical path is archery with leftover into nature.
I think ur wrong here again, hybrid can perfectly compete with ranged in dps if correctly built and played as None of the two trees capstone are that great for pve anyways. Instead of taking less usefull "non-dps" feats u take damage feats spread out in both trees.
there are several possible ways to combine them, but here take a look at how mine is feated:
(for some reason it wont keep that im human and have 3 points in disc of dex )
I can perfectly compete with an equally geared range hr in the paingiver chart with this build. Specially coz of the aspect of the serpent class feature which is pretty nice damage boost reward for stance switching.
Comments
Which also means the better the tank, or the semi-tank role whomever the class is, does his job, the higher the threshold of damage output.
Unfortunately, PuGs are full of half-baked shoddy build people that's not fully PvE optimized, nor PvP optimized, that can't grab aggro, that can't support team members, that's not a real tank, nor a real DPS, not even dedicated utility, and then sucks at PvP for an added bonus... and then starts blaming other individuals for team wipes and failures.
Most usually, especially in a game like NW where the dungeon/instance content is generally super easy, taking the aggro is simply a matter of noticing one of your DPS guys is in trouble, and burping at the mob. Either that, or any smart TR could momentarily face-tank the aggrod mob to give a guy a breather.
But nooooooo.. classic target fixation. Mob there. Me hit. Where'd everyone go? Why's everyone dead?
That's how usually it goes with PuGs.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Ridiculous argument. There's a reason why cleric players will ask rangers to stand in the circle, near the wizard or behind the GWF, unfortunately, the stupid pet or class feature gives them bonus damage with range. The reason is quite simple: My cleric's rotation in dungeons (except VT) is: sunburst, divine glow, astral shield, astral seal. which means there's only one way to be healed: at close range, within my sunburst radius at the very least, or to deal sustained damage continuously without taking a lot of damage (astral seal is good, but it's definitely not a lifesaver).
If I'm supporting a ranger, i have to remove from my spellbar one of my two best heals or to slot healing word instead of divine glow, which means an average 20-25% damage loss for the rest of the team. So, I have to use a single target heal because Mr Ranger doesn't want to stay at melee range with his bow, and the team will spend 20% more time killing things. Which means more time to stand in red, to take damage, and die.
Since rangers don't do enough damage for me to make me accept to have a dedicated heal for them, I simply don't play with them or let them die. If they want heals, they come into my circle, it's as simple as that.
Edit: didn't see that one.
Nope. It's rangers pulling everything, including mobs that weren't pulled by other class able to control or tank them. I've had a lot of issues in spellplague because rangers think it's funny to hit everything with split shot. Of course, they will have the initial aggro. Of course they'll keep it while they keep trying to kill this extra group.
Many rangers don't understand why they have aggro, but when i tell them I have SEEN them hitting mobs they pulled, they simply don't believe me or say they can't play without split shot. Next time I'll tell that kind of guy I can't play with dedicated heals for people who don't want to play without messing everything up.
The only classes allowed to pull are the CW, the GF or the DC (because he can heal what he pulls if he isn't supid). If a GWF or a ranger pulls, other classes will have to clean the mess most of the times.
I've seen equally stupid thing from a lot of other classes, ranging from DCs with hard-wired brains into a one-pattern symphony, to a CW that's pitiful without any kind of meatshield.
So tell me, from all the choices of stupids and idiots we see every day in PuGs, why should HRs be any different?
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
I'm part of "everyone," & I don't hate HRs.
Let your life proceed by its own designs
Nothing to tell
Let the words be yours, I'm done with mine ...
dumb hrs hinder the group right off the bat just by spamming splitshot.
well ill have to disagree here, those players who tend to knock stuff around breaking up the bunching hinder the groups dps just as much, and a badly played cw will have the same issues as a hr as theyll have a bunch of agro on them and they will be porting and kiting everything to survive... i cant tell u how much i hate when im playing melee to have to be chasing spread out mobs around.
Its bad play not the class itself, coz when i play my ranger i often end up hating other rangers too coz of that **** kiting sniper playstyle as i tend to play more midrange and stay more with the group and kite in circles-sideways if i have too... not backwards.
btw someone mentioned shard being nullified by roots coz it goes through them.... try hurling the shard when the roots ruberbanding has settled down a sec later, hell maybe even coi them before so everything is debuffed, and ull see how u hit everything... dont worry their not going anyware and those roots WILL actually help the partys dps keeping them bunched up a little longer... even after the shard knockback.
Michael -- 21.1k PvP Sent GWF
morePewPewlessQQ -- 20k Pvp/PvE HR
Just don't use the root. It's absolutely unnecessary in a group with a good CW or two. CWs aren't watching to see the rubberbanding. They are in their rotation. Very few things make a CW angrier than seeing their shard (which crits a ton and does upwards of 35K+ damage to *everything* in the vicinity) pass right through a block of mobs because a HR thinks he's a "controller."
I can't count how many times I've looked around to see an HR squishy-shoe dodging a pair of adds that he pulled out of a group of 8-10 mobs that the rest of the group is fighting. The HR will *not* come to the rest of the group so that he can be healed or someone else can pull back the aggro. That's that thing that angers most people about an HR. That's not poor aggro control by the rest of the group. It's the HR that's causing problems.
When 10 mobs are neatly packed and the HR "accidentally" pulls 2 or 3, then starts running around like a chicken with his head cut off, I will not help until the main group is dead. That rule goes whether I'm playing my CW, my GWF, my DC, or my GF.
I was in a group recently where the DC was friends with the HR. So every time the HR did the stupid HR thing, the DC would run away from the main group to span divine heals on the HR. The rest of the group, if we were lucky enough to get a circle, got an orange one because the DC had no Divine. Needless to say, I didn't stay in that group very long.
haha so true, yes!
But, to add a bit of fairness, most DPS players (in PUGS) have the usual wrong response to grabbing aggro, which is:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZVbVvZqBJM
Personaly on my HR, if i grab aggro (which happens ALL the time, even if i count to 3 and only do single target damage)
i decide if i either a) can nuke the mob down within the next 3-4 seconds, in that case i simply keep hitting it, or b)
should run up to the tank, and leave the mob there by resetting aggro using forest walk.
problem with B is thought, that the "Tank" usualy does not get whats going on, and i get the mob back as soon as Forest walk drops...
Most people simply have an horrible underdeveloped Situational awareness
Look, Its not about control its about keeping stuff bunched tight for longer which is better dps for EVERYONE (tr and gwf are gona be pretty happy about that too).
Its just as bad that i dont know ur mechanics as if u dont know mine. I could say its just as annoying that ur shards knockback pushes everything off my rain of arrows which could possibly be even more dps than the shard if everything was kept under it for its duration.
So maybe instead of mindlessly mashing buttons "following their rotation" they could try to have some awareness of whats going on, hold back the hurling part of the shard for a second (while they cast something else) so both him and and the hr synergise better as the roots wont be a problem for him and his shard wont be a problem for the hrs rain and they would actually clear the group faster.
Im sorry to hear u've had bad experiences with hrs, but really ive seen that sort of behaviour in all of the 3 squishy dps classes... imho its just lack of experience running dungeons, people panic and instead of heading towards ur mates or the satral shield they run off to try to save their but ending up being more of a hinderance than if they actually just died and waited for a res.
Erdan Loreweaver 60 CW 11.3 GS
Mika Hawklight 60 DC 11.5 GS
Rukia Stealthfoot 60 TR 11.5 GS
Ka D'Argo 60 HR 13.7 GS
Ivan Ironfist 60 GWF 11.6 GS
Ah so this is the name of this very annoying spells that make me want to throw my shards at the HR when i play my wizard? Well this is indeed another reason not to invite rangers in parties.
Here is a little summary of why I don't want to invite them so far:
- they scatter everything. Always pull more than they should and then spread mobs.
- they dodge when 2-3 mobs are chasing them. That's so far the only class i've seen doing that. Other classes players understood long ago that they had to run to the team and wait for support. Rangers simply run away because lol.
- they ruin other classes rotations.
- as a cleric, i can buff party members' damabe at melee range by more than 40% when it's required, but rangers don't want to stand near them because they think being a sniper is more fun. So much buffing wasted...
- they think older classes should adapt to their "game style" and simply don't want to adapt their characters to existing groups, habits, rotations, and way to deal with stuff.
Here is why most rangers are a burden in a team. Some aren't, because they simply don't try to play the way they want but instead adapt to existing groups. They are rare though. They remind me the first CW players during the first month of neverwinter: ray on mastery, chill strike, icy rays, conduit of ice during adds fights. All single target and no control not to draw too much attention. Who whould do that today? I guess we'll have to wait for most HRs players to either stop playing or learn to play their class without pissing off every single team member.
That you want to impede the rest of the group so that you can come in slightly higher yet still 4th place on paingiver at the expense of everyone else's damage and clear times is why nobody wants HRs in groups.
I've yet to see any HR even come close. At lower gear scores like t1 its possible, I know my HR rocked during the leveling up dungeons but that's due to the power of split shot being given at level 2. but as the other classes scale in power i've yet to see a HR keep up. I'd love to see some combat logs or screen shots of a high end HR in a high end group doing well.
Also seems mathematically impossible for at least Executioner as the HR lacks the amount of unlimited target cap abilities of CW.
I agree with both you and Charononus, but split shot is situational for me. Sorry if I made it sound otherwise, but If we are on the OP and talking epic pug runs and the group has issue with the way an hr is aggro'ing. Then less AoE will help a first toon player until they learn. Guild or experienced structured group is different. I have done pugs where I was kitting (if you could call it that) ads until they could be picked off. Ya, almost poked my finger through the "w" key.
There are times when split shot works, like during the dungeon run to cut down mobs quickly, but boss fights, IMO, are better with rapid. If you consider the time it takes to charge split to narrowest (most dmg, least pull) you can get off 3 or 4 rapids for equal damage. Plus it will usually only pull a couple adds on me, which is manageable. If you start dropping StS and Split shot and thorns next thing all the adds and the boss come charging down on you while CW and TR big hits swish through the air. Some adds that charge cancel split charge so you are quick shooting split which does little damage and pulls everything. I don't think there is one set "gets them all" deal. Each dungeon and group requires a different strat.
I wonder if some peoples problem with HRs is that they are knocking CW and TR down the pain giver list. Just a thought, no evidence to back it up, yet.
Erdan Loreweaver 60 CW 11.3 GS
Mika Hawklight 60 DC 11.5 GS
Rukia Stealthfoot 60 TR 11.5 GS
Ka D'Argo 60 HR 13.7 GS
Ivan Ironfist 60 GWF 11.6 GS
Most of my experience is based off of T2 dungeons and one run of Castle Never. At "pre made" level its a little unfair given that HRs are a newer class and it takes a long time to gear up to level 8 enchants and BiS gear/ perfect Vorpal/ Tricked out stone of allure.
My HR is in T2 gear, stone, 14K GS, achery build. During the skirmish events I was one or two consistantly on dmg dealt and kills. In Epic runs with a skilled group i am usually third sometimes 2nd. If I think about it. I will grab some screen shots.
Erdan Loreweaver 60 CW 11.3 GS
Mika Hawklight 60 DC 11.5 GS
Rukia Stealthfoot 60 TR 11.5 GS
Ka D'Argo 60 HR 13.7 GS
Ivan Ironfist 60 GWF 11.6 GS
I have noticed in epic pugs a lot of the players with green and blues few enhance with GS at minimum for dungeon. I would imagine that having something to do with it. In groups with second HR I have noticed some bad playing/power selection on their part.
I noticed my HR didn't start to perform well until my stats were in the 2,500 plus range Defense and deflect is tough to get up without giving up Crt, HP, or Rcvy, so scraped ideal of long term survival banging it out for burning down quickly and moving. I think the HR is the most challenging to play right (not that I am always right) next to my DC.
Erdan Loreweaver 60 CW 11.3 GS
Mika Hawklight 60 DC 11.5 GS
Rukia Stealthfoot 60 TR 11.5 GS
Ka D'Argo 60 HR 13.7 GS
Ivan Ironfist 60 GWF 11.6 GS
Funny that you mention that. Yesterday I just vote kicked a HR that had 14k GS and was being out damaged by the cleric at 13k. There are just way to many bad players in this class that gives them a bad name. If a HR does no damage, doesn't heal the party, doesn't tank, and doesn't cc then what the point in keeping them around.
You'd dont mean all in one character right? ;-)
As far as gear this is a non-issue. HRs were lvl 60 and 14k+ rank 10s and perfect enchants day 1. Only thing that takes time is sharandar boons but that can and was rushed with relic fragments. I'm talking about high end groups (not even really that high end, just avg+) Obviously people who's first character was an HR and has only been playing the game since December will take time to build enchants but thats the least of their problems, they are still learning how to play the game. they aren't who we are discussing.
In any avg+ groups with equal gear HR's spot on Paingiver chart is 3rd or 4th depending on how many CW/GWFs are in party. HR's keep saying all the time that they top the charts and they crush CWs etc but i've yet to see this once you're past the point where GWD and MD are "hard".
3rd place vs a bunch of other 14k gs ppl sounds about what i'm seeing. Thats single set T2 gear, r7s, and 1 green/blue artifact with no gs pets and still working on a few boons. That is the baseline avg for gs.
Erdan Loreweaver 60 CW 11.3 GS
Mika Hawklight 60 DC 11.5 GS
Rukia Stealthfoot 60 TR 11.5 GS
Ka D'Argo 60 HR 13.7 GS
Ivan Ironfist 60 GWF 11.6 GS
1. When you see mobs aggro them and run toward you, Tab Divinity, Sunburst Knockback toward the rest of the group of mobs
2. Immediately use chains of lightning under where they will land (hopefully with the rest of the mobs)
3. Watch mobs stay controlled and DPS continue from not having HR / CW run around.
4. Rinse and repeat.
This tactic works VERY well. In fact these days I don't usually take chains off my encounters unless I need to use healing word for ranged reasons.
Halfling - Devoted Cleric - Divine Oracle
Neverwinter Tribunal
<Genocidal Tendencies>
www.genotendencies.enjin.com
I think ur wrong here again, hybrid can perfectly compete with ranged in dps if correctly built and played as None of the two trees capstone are that great for pve anyways. Instead of taking less usefull "non-dps" feats u take damage feats spread out in both trees.
there are several possible ways to combine them, but here take a look at how mine is feated:
http://nwcalc.com/hr?b=p9b:4ix8s:5ywj,1xi3i3i:6z530:b0x00:60000&h=1&p=swd
(for some reason it wont keep that im human and have 3 points in disc of dex
I can perfectly compete with an equally geared range hr in the paingiver chart with this build. Specially coz of the aspect of the serpent class feature which is pretty nice damage boost reward for stance switching.