After all the years I've played MMORPGs, there's one thing that never, ever fails to impress me or get me depressed, depending on how you see it. Whether the max level is 10 or100, people are always in a hurry to get there. But why? Why do people really want to skip the entire game just to reach the max level? Here's a few points for you:
1. When you reach max level, you have run out of content.
I call this the "hurry up and wait" style of playing. Not saying that it's better or worse (done it myself), just saying that you hit the level cap, do everything and then sit around waiting for something new to do. Granted, with the timers on some quests you have to really really have to have nothing else better to do in order to completely run out of things to do before the next patch (which seem to come out every 3 months).
2. No one is impressed by your max level character.
Definitely not in this game. Though in other games there was a small sense of pride in reaching the level cap since not everyone could do it and so you belonged to a small but ever increasing group of players. PWI for example was insanely hard to reach to the level cap. But here it just means that you've played for at least a week. And even having really good gear doesn't mean a whole lot since you can buy pretty much everything without ever stepping foot out of Protectors Enclave.
3. By rushing through the game, you're missing out on a ton of fun stuff.
I will agree with what others have said here and say that 1. its almost impossible not to miss out on some stuff even if you're not rushing do simply to the exp gain. 2. Once you've done it, it doesn't really get anymore fun the next time you do it.
4. Achivements.
achievements mean different things to different people. Same goes for high scores. When I play a game I just want to finish each level where as my brother always wanted to have the highest score. Different ways of playing but ultimately the same goal was to beat the game. In MMOs however there really is no "beating the game" so each person decides for themselves what it means. For you completing all the achievements may be your way of beating the game, for others having a maxed level, maxed geared character might be.
5. Foundry.
Done many foundry quests for the daily, some are really good, some are really bad and the rest......meh. But just like everything else in the game, how many times can you repeat the same thing before you get bored with it? As for making my own....still haven't quite figured that out yet.
Once you've done it, it doesn't really get anymore fun the next time you do it.
So much this ^^^. Why not simply allow a person to "set" their level to match whatever the highest level any of their other characters has obtained. Why make me grind through the same content I've already gone through. I know what this quest does, I know what that quest does. Here's this monster, there is that monster. I've been down this road before -- just let me set my starting level -- don't even give me any equipment -- I'll gladly buy or battle naked for 15 minutes to get drops at nearly my level.
I do agree to a certain extent with the OP, particularly because I am one those smell the roses type players. An intrinsic part of this game is the leveling. So why do people that don't like leveling and just want to play end game content play a game that has leveling? I never understood that. Another thing I don't understand is the many of the same people that say you need to learn how to play your character also advocate zerging through the lower levels. Isn't that the point of the lower levels, to learn how to play your character? The faster you go the less you learn.
Something else for the pro-zerging crowd to roll their eyes at. I think there should be more low level content, if for no other reason to give people who are running Alts different adventures to experience. Not just the same ones over and over, which just leads more to the rushing thru areas. Plus I do advocate for the leveling to be slowed down. Not to a complete crawl mind you, but just a little bit. Remove the XP from both Invoking and Leadership, keep all the rest of the rewards for them though. Maybe the bonus XP stuff needs to go as well.
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chemboy613Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,521Arc User
edited February 2014
I mean, there's lots of debates here, and I've leveled 6 characters to 60.
The nice part of leveling is the world is awesome, i like the stories and scenery, but i think there are limits on storytelling here.
Fundamentally though, leveling is easy. By the time you reach a hard zone (hotenow), you have been leveling forever and are at that "OMG, let me hit 60 already" moment.
But the second problem comes from the first, that easy = boring. Once you have some apperciable skill, leveling any class to 60 is painfuly easy, not entertaining, and seems to take forever.
That said, in addition, none of the gear, gold, rewards, etc... you get through leveling amounts to anything. When you hit 60 you just ditch all your gear and get new gear within a few hours.
So why waste time on something that is easy, boring, and produces no real rewards? That doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
I agree rushing to max level isn't fun.I am very new to MMOrpg's and NeverWinter is my first mmorpg that is not anime and so far am enjoying the quests as they seem to be fun and not go kill 10 rats quests that plague most other games.The graphics and art are really nice and makes me want to explore and take my time and not rush anything.I am also very pleased by the fact that levelling is very fast in this game so even if i do not rush things i will still be progressing at a good pace.I only started playing yesterday and i am already lvl 7.I love the action based combat in this game which keeps things fresh.I have no idea what end-game really means as i have never reached endgame in any MMO as no game has kept my interest for that long but NeverWinter will probably be the first MMO where i max my toon and get to enjoy the so called end-game which people say"the fun really begins".
I do agree to a certain extent with the OP, particularly because I am one those smell the roses type players. An intrinsic part of this game is the leveling. So why do people that don't like leveling and just want to play end game content play a game that has leveling?
I can answer this. The reason people play a level-based game even if they hate leveling, is simply because the game has much more to offer than just that. As an example, let me direct you to the Tomb Raider reboot. I have always been a huge fan of Tomb Raider, and absolutely loved the reboot. In fact, I loved it so much that I finished it on PC, then got the PS4-version yesterday. In my opinion, there are a bit too much fighting, and not enough exploring. But even so, the rest of the game more tham makes up for it. I can easily overlook the bad parts, if the good parts make up for it.
I think it's the same way with leveling. Some people hate it, but that doesn't mean they hate the rest of the game, too. Some evne have a lot of fun while leveling, despite being impatient to reach max level. I hate the QTE-s in the Batman: Arkham games, but I do think the games are really good. Even Origins, despite being justa reskinned Arkham City. GTA? I hate the story, love messing around and doing whatever I please. Hating one thing doesn't mean you have everything.
Fundamentally though, leveling is easy. By the time you reach a hard zone (hotenow), you have been leveling forever and are at that "OMG, let me hit 60 already" moment.
I think this is a flaw with modern games. If you look at Path of Exile, it's near impossible to reach max level. When you die on harder difficulties, you will loose a lot of XP. This means the only way to reach max level (200, I think) is by a LOT of patience, and playing carefully. Even then it's going to take a while. But know what? If you somehow manage to do it, I'll be impressed. For the same reason, I'm impressed by people who reach max level in Hardcore-mode in Diablo, and games like that. That takes actual skill.
I wasn't around the MMO-games back with Everquest 1, but didn't that reduce your XP when you died, too? And I'm pretty sure other games do it, too. But games today are catering more and more to the mainstream markets, meaning everyone should be able to play them. That's great for the masses and the companies who sell the games, but sucks for us who wants a real challenge. That's why Demon's Soul and Dark Souls got so popular. They dared to think outside the box and offer a geniune challenge. They are both very much possible to beat, but you're going to have to work for it. They have the challenge of old games, but with the streamlining of modern games. That's a win-win in my book. MMOs have a lot to learn from them.
Not fun for you and me, but that doesn't mean no one likes it. And honestly, i respect people's opinions enough to be ok with it. If they want to rush, by all means do it. Just don't expect me to play the same way. You have your fun, I have mine.
Please understand I care exactly zero about lateral content for leveling and I'm speaking of endgame lateral growth. We need more pvp maps, more dungeons, and maybe even raids before even thinking about putting level cap raises on the long list of things that would be nice to do.
Remember I'm one of those that looks at leveling as something that is in the way of my having fun and tries to get it done as fast as possible.
Ohhhh....as it is now there is a ton of content for just one level. The things you can do just at level 60 would take you to level 65-67 is those existed. I guess we just differ in taste on that. I enjoy leveling.
Well written post that has inspired some stimulating conversation about different play styles. I'm fairly new to Neverwinter, don't have a level 60 yet and am in no real rush to get there. Leveling does seem fairly easy, which brings me to the comment(s) about "Everquest."
"I wasn't around the MMO-games back with Everquest 1, but didn't that reduce your XP when you died, too?"
and ..
"Yes, EQ1 did that, & for the most part, players hated it; that's why it's no longer used in modern MMOs."
My memories turn back toward Everquest's Norrath. I can remember back when the level cap was 60, at level 59 my Monk basically lived at Velketor's Labyrinth for an entire 2 weeks or so. I grouped and soloed Kobolds, I was poorly geared at the time and if the camp respawned Kobold Priests / Healers I was in trouble!
It wasn't the most efficient way to level from 59 - 60, but it was safer than venturing over to Lower Guk. I think it took me close to two weeks of playing several hours a day to hit the much coveted level 60 cap. Even though it was a grind, I also derived a sense of real accomplishment for all the work I had put into my Monk. Next would come finishing the Epic quest, which in and of itself was also a grind, a grind that required the help of friends for the final conflicts.
Some time afterward I had the honor of raiding with a fantastic guild, new content meant lots of learning and dying. Even losing the level cap several times over, a tough night of raiding was followed by guild groups of experience grinding to regain level 60.
Most of Today's MMO's tend to offer more of a 'Fast Food' approach to content, if something takes too long generally we become disinterested and move on to something else. Of course developers know this, the result is we are fast tracked to 'end game content' that lacks any real sense of 'end game' accomplishment.
One more thing about Everquest, in it's earliest days if you died someplace your corpse remained at the place of your death. This meant you needed to return to that place and enlist the help of friends and a friendly cleric to safely recover your body, if you took too long your corpse would 'poof' and all the gear you were wearing at the time would be lost forever. It was common to have raid wipes where players were stranded outside some dangerous zone until Rogues / Monks were able to sneak in and recover the bodies to a safer location for resurrection.
An even worse case scenario would require a guild to enlist a more powerful ally guild to zone in and make the area safe again so that all the sleepy and tired people could recover their characters and try that tough raid some other night
Today, even Everquest has been toned down, it's much easier to play and while dying still has an experience penalty it's not as difficult to gain that lost experience back again.
I experienced my days of tough MMO's, that's probably why today I enjoy games like Neverwinter. As someone before on this thread had posted, paraphrasing; "Neverwinter is easy to get into, tough to master."
Yes, EQ1 did that, & for the most part, players hated it; that's why it's no longer used in modern MMOs.
I think it's even less possible to compare a real MMO to console games like Demon Soul & Dark Souls, than it is to compare Neverwinter to a real MMO.
The insane part of this is that games where you actually lose everything on death are wildly popular, minecraft, dayz, so on. Yes minecraft is "sandbox" and not so much mmo, but dayz is most definitely a hybrid, and the trend seems to be sandbox mmos. People are liking the challenge, the "realism", and the pvp. I can imagine a very near future where you have p2w/f2p easy games like this, and really really hard pvp "one life" games. I would probably rather see NWO be a bit more hardcore but really it is the biggest cheesefest amusement park in the world and it is kind of col in that way.
What I would really like to see is an mmo with no character levels as I really don't see the point of them in mmo's.
Why not have a level for each item, the more you use the item the more it levels up. So you could start and in one minute someone could give you a full set of gear and your epic but with no skill, so someone with a little skill but poor gear could kill you and vise versa. Add the option to train for gold and bam. No need to play hours before you can start.
To the op: Has it occurred to you that a great many people don't actually want to play the PVE parts of an mmo? I for one have no interest in killing 10 this and collecting 20 of this and running over there to jump down there to kill 10 of this... I'm just saying!
I always wonder why PVE players come to mmo's, I mean the story, the graphics ect.. They are no where near the quality of non mmo games and these days you can usually hook up with friends anyway on any game.
Personally I play mmo games so I can PVP, if I could start at the level cap I would and the truth is I see no reason why not. It's kind if, you must endure our ****ty quests before you can play the game you came to play. But that is just my own opinion and everyone is different.
I always wonder why PVE players come to mmo's, I mean the story, the graphics ect.. They are no where near the quality of non mmo games and these days you can usually hook up with friends anyway on any game.
Personally I play mmo games so I can PVP, if I could start at the level cap I would and the truth is I see no reason why not. It's kind if, you must endure our ****ty quests before you can play the game you came to play. But that is just my own opinion and everyone is different.
I can answer that one as far as I am concerned. I am here because of the Neverwinter and D&D logos. If not for them I would not be here. I have played other MMOs, and have even extensively been in involved with one. However I was getting out of MMOs, because of the PvP centric development of them, until I heard about Neverwinter. I could care less about PvP. MMOs for me are an opportunity to socialize with people who enjoy the same game I do, apart from my bi-monthly PnP sessions. Without going off onto a tangent, I think there needs to be more of the rulebooks incorporated into the game, not less. If not for the IP behind this MMO, I would be off playing more of the Witcher series on my PC.
To turn your question on it's head. Why does every MMO need PvP? There are any number of MMOs out there that are strictly PvP, why come to a primarily PvE IP and force PvP onto it. As an aside, story relevant PvP is fine, ie good characters vs evil characters, in limited instances. I do need a story driven reason to bash skulls, not just because there is an arena available - now go bash heads for no reason. Just as there are any number of graphically better PvE games out there for the computer, the same can be said for PvP games, that have that twitch combat PvPers seem to enjoy. CoD, BF4, MoH, Halo, just to name a few, so why are you not playing those where you can connect with many people that enjoy killing each other through the PS and Xbox networks. Bonus - no leveling required in those games.
I can answer that one as far as I am concerned. I am here because of the Neverwinter and D&D logos. If not for them I would not be here. I have played other MMOs, and have even extensively been in involved with one. However I was getting out of MMOs, because of the PvP centric development of them, until I heard about Neverwinter. I could care less about PvP. MMOs for me are an opportunity to socialize with people who enjoy the same game I do, apart from my bi-monthly PnP sessions. Without going off onto a tangent, I think there needs to be more of the rulebooks incorporated into the game, not less. If not for the IP behind this MMO, I would be off playing more of the Witcher series on my PC.
To turn your question on it's head. Why does every MMO need PvP? There are any number of MMOs out there that are strictly PvP, why come to a primarily PvE IP and force PvP onto it. As an aside, story relevant PvP is fine, ie good characters vs evil characters, in limited instances. I do need a story driven reason to bash skulls, not just because there is an arena available - now go bash heads for no reason. Just as there are any number of graphically better PvE games out there for the computer, the same can be said for PvP games, that have that twitch combat PvPers seem to enjoy. CoD, BF4, MoH, Halo, just to name a few, so why are you not playing those where you can connect with many people that enjoy killing each other through the PS and Xbox networks. Bonus - no leveling required in those games.
Firstly, I don't actually play PVP in Neverwinter because it's HAMSTER, I'm here for the foundry and only the foundry. As for all mmo's having PVP, why not? The games you mention are all fps, not my cup of tea. Saying why should mmo's have pvp is like me saying why should they have pve, not what I was saying. I see no reason why PVE and PVP can not live side by side and I agree not all mmo's should force you to do either, Neverwinter would be a good example of that.
Also there is more to what I want then just PVP, I like professions, I like to explore and like Lore. Hell, if a story is good I even like PVE but this takes me back to my original point, mmo's are really bad for a good story, I don't know why but they are. I haven't played them all, including Guild Wars, I have heard people say the same as you Edit:(sorry, that was the person above) but it's too late now and there are very few games that don't have levels, good games anyway. Guild wars 2 was rubbish imo.
If there was a game like chivalry medieval warfare that also had things like towns, professions, Lore, exploration, even pve then I would be playing it but there is not. Not to my knowledge anyway.
Epic dungeons with a good, friendly party > leveling.
And yes, I am impressed by insanely geared players, jealous even.
PSA: You don't need to grind Spinward Rise for your Elemental artifact main hand if you have some AD lying around. You can craft it via the Tyranny of Dragon's campaign screen.
The insane part of this is that games where you actually lose everything on death are wildly popular, minecraft, dayz, so on
Yes, but in terms of actual MMOs, those aspects are wildly *unpopular.* Why? Because I guarantee you that replacing all of your gear in EQ2 & WoW, etc., is a very different thing from replacing it all in Minecraft or Day-Z. In a real MMO, you could be talking about days or even WEEKS of play time to replace that stuff; in Minecraft at least, for any competent player it's a very quick process. The two concepts can't be fairly compared, as a result.
I could, for example, compare EQ2 & WoW in their launch states to what both games are now, & I'd point out that all of those "nerfs" to the difficulty of the early game came about as a result of players not liking that early difficulty. Now, sure, you get regular calls for "Vanilla" servers, but those calls are from a very distinct minority of the player base, & the developers have steadfastly refused to do any such thing.
I always wonder why PVE players come to mmo's
Because bashing monsters with friends is a LOT more fun than doing it alone.
Conversely, I always wonder why PvP players come to MMOs. I simply don't understand why people would bother playing a game that isn't really designed for their PvP playstyle, when they could play REAL PvP games, on REAL PvP servers. If I actually cared about PvP, I wouldn't even dream of it in a MMO.
I see no reason why PVE and PVP can not live side by side
Because, developmentally, they're two entirely different animals that have be balanced entirely differently. That is WHY the PvP in Neverwinter "sucks," because this game was balanced & designed from the beginning for PvE.
In fact, that's been true of almost every single MMO -- successful or otherwise -- that I can think of. Even in WoW, which probably has the "most successful" PvP of any serious MMO, you will still find a litany of complaints about the difficulty -- even the inability -- of PvP & PvE to coexist on the same servers.
There is a reason why there are very few MMOs which successfully incorporate PvP, & a further reason why those MMOs are not as popular as WoW, & that further reason dovetails very nicely into this discussion: because *most* modern players have indicated they want to *play a game,* as opposed to "living a second life." Roleplayers & other "hardcore" gamers can decry this modern attitude all they wish, but it's sort of like decrying cell phones: it is what it is, & no amount of crying about it is going to change the facts.
Fare you well
Let your life proceed by its own designs
Nothing to tell
Let the words be yours, I'm done with mine ...
Comments
I call this the "hurry up and wait" style of playing. Not saying that it's better or worse (done it myself), just saying that you hit the level cap, do everything and then sit around waiting for something new to do. Granted, with the timers on some quests you have to really really have to have nothing else better to do in order to completely run out of things to do before the next patch (which seem to come out every 3 months).
2. No one is impressed by your max level character.
Definitely not in this game. Though in other games there was a small sense of pride in reaching the level cap since not everyone could do it and so you belonged to a small but ever increasing group of players. PWI for example was insanely hard to reach to the level cap. But here it just means that you've played for at least a week. And even having really good gear doesn't mean a whole lot since you can buy pretty much everything without ever stepping foot out of Protectors Enclave.
3. By rushing through the game, you're missing out on a ton of fun stuff.
I will agree with what others have said here and say that 1. its almost impossible not to miss out on some stuff even if you're not rushing do simply to the exp gain. 2. Once you've done it, it doesn't really get anymore fun the next time you do it.
4. Achivements.
achievements mean different things to different people. Same goes for high scores. When I play a game I just want to finish each level where as my brother always wanted to have the highest score. Different ways of playing but ultimately the same goal was to beat the game. In MMOs however there really is no "beating the game" so each person decides for themselves what it means. For you completing all the achievements may be your way of beating the game, for others having a maxed level, maxed geared character might be.
5. Foundry.
Done many foundry quests for the daily, some are really good, some are really bad and the rest......meh. But just like everything else in the game, how many times can you repeat the same thing before you get bored with it? As for making my own....still haven't quite figured that out yet.
So much this ^^^. Why not simply allow a person to "set" their level to match whatever the highest level any of their other characters has obtained. Why make me grind through the same content I've already gone through. I know what this quest does, I know what that quest does. Here's this monster, there is that monster. I've been down this road before -- just let me set my starting level -- don't even give me any equipment -- I'll gladly buy or battle naked for 15 minutes to get drops at nearly my level.
Encounter Matrix | Advanced Foundry Topics
Something else for the pro-zerging crowd to roll their eyes at. I think there should be more low level content, if for no other reason to give people who are running Alts different adventures to experience. Not just the same ones over and over, which just leads more to the rushing thru areas. Plus I do advocate for the leveling to be slowed down. Not to a complete crawl mind you, but just a little bit. Remove the XP from both Invoking and Leadership, keep all the rest of the rewards for them though. Maybe the bonus XP stuff needs to go as well.
The nice part of leveling is the world is awesome, i like the stories and scenery, but i think there are limits on storytelling here.
Fundamentally though, leveling is easy. By the time you reach a hard zone (hotenow), you have been leveling forever and are at that "OMG, let me hit 60 already" moment.
But the second problem comes from the first, that easy = boring. Once you have some apperciable skill, leveling any class to 60 is painfuly easy, not entertaining, and seems to take forever.
That said, in addition, none of the gear, gold, rewards, etc... you get through leveling amounts to anything. When you hit 60 you just ditch all your gear and get new gear within a few hours.
So why waste time on something that is easy, boring, and produces no real rewards? That doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
Everything you need to know about CW:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?780981-Chem-s-CW-Compendium-Everything-you-need-to-know
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v= http://www.youtube.com/user/moegoodtime
I think it's the same way with leveling. Some people hate it, but that doesn't mean they hate the rest of the game, too. Some evne have a lot of fun while leveling, despite being impatient to reach max level. I hate the QTE-s in the Batman: Arkham games, but I do think the games are really good. Even Origins, despite being justa reskinned Arkham City. GTA? I hate the story, love messing around and doing whatever I please. Hating one thing doesn't mean you have everything.
I think this is a flaw with modern games. If you look at Path of Exile, it's near impossible to reach max level. When you die on harder difficulties, you will loose a lot of XP. This means the only way to reach max level (200, I think) is by a LOT of patience, and playing carefully. Even then it's going to take a while. But know what? If you somehow manage to do it, I'll be impressed. For the same reason, I'm impressed by people who reach max level in Hardcore-mode in Diablo, and games like that. That takes actual skill.
I wasn't around the MMO-games back with Everquest 1, but didn't that reduce your XP when you died, too? And I'm pretty sure other games do it, too. But games today are catering more and more to the mainstream markets, meaning everyone should be able to play them. That's great for the masses and the companies who sell the games, but sucks for us who wants a real challenge. That's why Demon's Soul and Dark Souls got so popular. They dared to think outside the box and offer a geniune challenge. They are both very much possible to beat, but you're going to have to work for it. They have the challenge of old games, but with the streamlining of modern games. That's a win-win in my book. MMOs have a lot to learn from them.
Not fun for you and me, but that doesn't mean no one likes it. And honestly, i respect people's opinions enough to be ok with it. If they want to rush, by all means do it. Just don't expect me to play the same way. You have your fun, I have mine.
For some, it's the tutorial. For others, that's the whole game.
Ohhhh....as it is now there is a ton of content for just one level. The things you can do just at level 60 would take you to level 65-67 is those existed. I guess we just differ in taste on that. I enjoy leveling.
Jugger Conq GF
....
Yes, EQ1 did that, & for the most part, players hated it; that's why it's no longer used in modern MMOs.
I think it's even less possible to compare a real MMO to console games like Demon Soul & Dark Souls, than it is to compare Neverwinter to a real MMO.
Let your life proceed by its own designs
Nothing to tell
Let the words be yours, I'm done with mine ...
"I wasn't around the MMO-games back with Everquest 1, but didn't that reduce your XP when you died, too?"
and ..
"Yes, EQ1 did that, & for the most part, players hated it; that's why it's no longer used in modern MMOs."
My memories turn back toward Everquest's Norrath. I can remember back when the level cap was 60, at level 59 my Monk basically lived at Velketor's Labyrinth for an entire 2 weeks or so. I grouped and soloed Kobolds, I was poorly geared at the time and if the camp respawned Kobold Priests / Healers I was in trouble!
It wasn't the most efficient way to level from 59 - 60, but it was safer than venturing over to Lower Guk. I think it took me close to two weeks of playing several hours a day to hit the much coveted level 60 cap. Even though it was a grind, I also derived a sense of real accomplishment for all the work I had put into my Monk. Next would come finishing the Epic quest, which in and of itself was also a grind, a grind that required the help of friends for the final conflicts.
Some time afterward I had the honor of raiding with a fantastic guild, new content meant lots of learning and dying. Even losing the level cap several times over, a tough night of raiding was followed by guild groups of experience grinding to regain level 60.
Most of Today's MMO's tend to offer more of a 'Fast Food' approach to content, if something takes too long generally we become disinterested and move on to something else. Of course developers know this, the result is we are fast tracked to 'end game content' that lacks any real sense of 'end game' accomplishment.
One more thing about Everquest, in it's earliest days if you died someplace your corpse remained at the place of your death. This meant you needed to return to that place and enlist the help of friends and a friendly cleric to safely recover your body, if you took too long your corpse would 'poof' and all the gear you were wearing at the time would be lost forever. It was common to have raid wipes where players were stranded outside some dangerous zone until Rogues / Monks were able to sneak in and recover the bodies to a safer location for resurrection.
An even worse case scenario would require a guild to enlist a more powerful ally guild to zone in and make the area safe again so that all the sleepy and tired people could recover their characters and try that tough raid some other night
Today, even Everquest has been toned down, it's much easier to play and while dying still has an experience penalty it's not as difficult to gain that lost experience back again.
I experienced my days of tough MMO's, that's probably why today I enjoy games like Neverwinter. As someone before on this thread had posted, paraphrasing; "Neverwinter is easy to get into, tough to master."
So far that's my experience.
The insane part of this is that games where you actually lose everything on death are wildly popular, minecraft, dayz, so on. Yes minecraft is "sandbox" and not so much mmo, but dayz is most definitely a hybrid, and the trend seems to be sandbox mmos. People are liking the challenge, the "realism", and the pvp. I can imagine a very near future where you have p2w/f2p easy games like this, and really really hard pvp "one life" games. I would probably rather see NWO be a bit more hardcore but really it is the biggest cheesefest amusement park in the world and it is kind of col in that way.
Jugger Conq GF
....
Why not have a level for each item, the more you use the item the more it levels up. So you could start and in one minute someone could give you a full set of gear and your epic but with no skill, so someone with a little skill but poor gear could kill you and vise versa. Add the option to train for gold and bam. No need to play hours before you can start.
To the op: Has it occurred to you that a great many people don't actually want to play the PVE parts of an mmo? I for one have no interest in killing 10 this and collecting 20 of this and running over there to jump down there to kill 10 of this... I'm just saying!
I always wonder why PVE players come to mmo's, I mean the story, the graphics ect.. They are no where near the quality of non mmo games and these days you can usually hook up with friends anyway on any game.
Personally I play mmo games so I can PVP, if I could start at the level cap I would and the truth is I see no reason why not. It's kind if, you must endure our ****ty quests before you can play the game you came to play. But that is just my own opinion and everyone is different.
This has been done - Guild Wars (1) had a system which was not dis-similar to this.
To turn your question on it's head. Why does every MMO need PvP? There are any number of MMOs out there that are strictly PvP, why come to a primarily PvE IP and force PvP onto it. As an aside, story relevant PvP is fine, ie good characters vs evil characters, in limited instances. I do need a story driven reason to bash skulls, not just because there is an arena available - now go bash heads for no reason. Just as there are any number of graphically better PvE games out there for the computer, the same can be said for PvP games, that have that twitch combat PvPers seem to enjoy. CoD, BF4, MoH, Halo, just to name a few, so why are you not playing those where you can connect with many people that enjoy killing each other through the PS and Xbox networks. Bonus - no leveling required in those games.
Firstly, I don't actually play PVP in Neverwinter because it's HAMSTER, I'm here for the foundry and only the foundry. As for all mmo's having PVP, why not? The games you mention are all fps, not my cup of tea. Saying why should mmo's have pvp is like me saying why should they have pve, not what I was saying. I see no reason why PVE and PVP can not live side by side and I agree not all mmo's should force you to do either, Neverwinter would be a good example of that.
Also there is more to what I want then just PVP, I like professions, I like to explore and like Lore. Hell, if a story is good I even like PVE but this takes me back to my original point, mmo's are really bad for a good story, I don't know why but they are. I haven't played them all, including Guild Wars, I have heard people say the same as you Edit:(sorry, that was the person above) but it's too late now and there are very few games that don't have levels, good games anyway. Guild wars 2 was rubbish imo.
If there was a game like chivalry medieval warfare that also had things like towns, professions, Lore, exploration, even pve then I would be playing it but there is not. Not to my knowledge anyway.
And yes, I am impressed by insanely geared players, jealous even.
Yes, but in terms of actual MMOs, those aspects are wildly *unpopular.* Why? Because I guarantee you that replacing all of your gear in EQ2 & WoW, etc., is a very different thing from replacing it all in Minecraft or Day-Z. In a real MMO, you could be talking about days or even WEEKS of play time to replace that stuff; in Minecraft at least, for any competent player it's a very quick process. The two concepts can't be fairly compared, as a result.
I could, for example, compare EQ2 & WoW in their launch states to what both games are now, & I'd point out that all of those "nerfs" to the difficulty of the early game came about as a result of players not liking that early difficulty. Now, sure, you get regular calls for "Vanilla" servers, but those calls are from a very distinct minority of the player base, & the developers have steadfastly refused to do any such thing.
Because bashing monsters with friends is a LOT more fun than doing it alone.
Conversely, I always wonder why PvP players come to MMOs. I simply don't understand why people would bother playing a game that isn't really designed for their PvP playstyle, when they could play REAL PvP games, on REAL PvP servers. If I actually cared about PvP, I wouldn't even dream of it in a MMO.
Because, developmentally, they're two entirely different animals that have be balanced entirely differently. That is WHY the PvP in Neverwinter "sucks," because this game was balanced & designed from the beginning for PvE.
In fact, that's been true of almost every single MMO -- successful or otherwise -- that I can think of. Even in WoW, which probably has the "most successful" PvP of any serious MMO, you will still find a litany of complaints about the difficulty -- even the inability -- of PvP & PvE to coexist on the same servers.
There is a reason why there are very few MMOs which successfully incorporate PvP, & a further reason why those MMOs are not as popular as WoW, & that further reason dovetails very nicely into this discussion: because *most* modern players have indicated they want to *play a game,* as opposed to "living a second life." Roleplayers & other "hardcore" gamers can decry this modern attitude all they wish, but it's sort of like decrying cell phones: it is what it is, & no amount of crying about it is going to change the facts.
Let your life proceed by its own designs
Nothing to tell
Let the words be yours, I'm done with mine ...