It's not the pve players showing up to pvp that is the problem it is people who are just bad at pvp period. I've never quit a match because my team was losing, in fact some of the most fun matches I've had were ones in which my team lost, however I will quit if I'm surrounded by awful players since that will suck the fun out of the game for me. I don't care about winning or losing I just want good fights.
If the match starts and I see everyone rush our own node instead of mid then I'm quitting. I always tell people to rush mid long before the gate drops so if they're going to ignore that then they can have fun by themselves while I go find competent people to play with.
If people constantly fight off the node instead of on it, even after I've told them multiple times to fight on the node, then I'm quitting.
If they want to chase kills, even after being told multiple times not to, which leads to the team being ridiculously spread out and us getting picked off easily by people moving together then I'm quitting.
If I see them majority of them using skills that have no reason to be on their bar, some examples from the past week are GFs using ET, TRs with DS and not even using it out of stealth (which as we all know is the only way you'll ever land it on someone who's not complete garbage) and HRs with RoA, then I'm going to find a game with people who aren't garbage-tier pvpers.
I have an issue with people rushing our own node instead of mid when game starts. This is usually a clear indication that you're team sucks right out of the box and to leave.
With the new matchmaking system and pvp stats on gear far less people will be leaving. Hopefully we will be able to see the ranking for the matchmaking system for ourselves and or others. I can see myself wasting endless hours trying to improve my rank LOL.
Some will still camp the fire and or leave because of just wanting the daily ad.
If the pvp gear drops the pve gear score so you don't just grind pvp to get into epic dungeons the non pvp types will stop leaving and camping the fire.
Personally, I believe that a penalty for leaving should not even be considered with a system that matches premade's with pug's. Separate the two into 2 different queue's and then talk about penalties for leaving.
Leaving just because the opposing team has two or more GWFs? Seriously? Not only are you wasting your own time, you're ruining it for everyone else.
This is not a "hardcore vs. softcore" thing. It's a "stop being so friggin' selfish and take one for the team occasionally" thing.
Taking one for my team would be fine, if there was chance that we would win, taking one so that my opposition get more kills is ridiculous, and the gwf thing is a game balance issue which I believe is being addressed this patch anyway.
You don't even need the Raven Skull for pve. Imo the game forces you to have to do too much pve since the RNG is abysmal (forcing you to have to do tons of dungeon runs in hopes of winning the drops you need or at least winning something to sell so you can buy what you need), both Shara and Dread Ring boon grinds are ridiculous (especially Shara), then trying to find artifacts (which you then have to do more grind to get leveled up) and then you have the joy of working on enchantments. If you're into pve you also get the joy of grinding for companions and then having to rank and gear them.
Translated....You have to play the game to get stuff. MIND BLOWING!
I am against penalties period. I would advocate rewarding desired behavior rather than punishing undesirable behavior. What if everyone on the team leaves except you? Do you stay and not be punished, or do you leave and take the punishment rather than waiting for the red team to win? That is an even split and I think most people would still rather leave and suffer some temporary ban that likely would take no longer than the rest of the match anyways.
I am for straight out "you score more points as a player, you gain more (whatever), even if your team loses" and no reward until the end of the match. You don't leave a dungeon prior to opening the chest. Winning being tied directly to who does the best in a match, the winners will still receive a higher reward. Losers will want to keep playing to receive the reward.
There could even be a locked "no-pvp" area on the pvp maps that has a chest and only opens at the end of the match. Players would have to go to the chest to open it for their reward. Better yet you get a key to a chest in the Trade of Blades and after pvp everyone simply spawns back there, to claim their reward.
I am against penalties period. I would advocate rewarding desired behavior rather than punishing undesirable behavior. What if everyone on the team leaves except you? Do you stay and not be punished, or do you leave and take the punishment rather than waiting for the red team to win? That is an even split and I think most people would still rather leave and suffer some temporary ban that likely would take no longer than the rest of the match anyways.
I am for straight out "you score more points as a player, you gain more (whatever), even if your team loses" and no reward until the end of the match. You don't leave a dungeon prior to opening the chest. Winning being tied directly to who does the best in a match, the winners will still receive a higher reward. Losers will want to keep playing to receive the reward.
There could even be a locked "no-pvp" area on the pvp maps that has a chest and only opens at the end of the match. Players would have to go to the chest to open it for their reward. Better yet you get a key to a chest in the Trade of Blades and after pvp everyone simply spawns back there, to claim their reward.
Safe area's encourage exploiting the system and should be eliminated. Fix queue bugs, add a leaver penalty and add ramps to the spawns.
Would not a surrender button kind of help here?
Everyone wants to punish the leavers but would a system not be better that prevents leaving but gives the option to surrender? Like I said, it could be done that one team has to vote whether they all want to surrender or every player can decide for himself and will get kicked eventually by the system if he pressed the button and replaced by someone else with similar elo rank.
Or if it is not possible to prevent the players from leaving then there can be a penalty for force leaving anyway as it hurts everybody else, but a leaving via surrender would not hurt anyone.
Safe area's encourage exploiting the system and should be eliminated. Fix queue bugs, add a leaver penalty and add ramps to the spawns.
Not sure if you know what I meant by the "no-pvp area". It would simply be a room behind a door. The room would contain a chest and the chest would contain the rewards for the match. The door wouldn't open until the match was completely over. I can't see how that would encourage exploits. The other idea is to simply have a key spawn in players inventory. The key would open a chest in the Trade of Blades. That chest would contain the rewards for the match.
The whole idea is that pvp is an entirely different animal than pve but NWO doles out the main reward (astral diamonds) from dailys in a manner exactly like pve. To say you get a static amount of ad for showing up at a match period, is asking for problems.
Not sure if you know what I meant by the "no-pvp area". It would simply be a room behind a door. The room would contain a chest and the chest would contain the rewards for the match. The door wouldn't open until the match was completely over. I can't see how that would encourage exploits. The other idea is to simply have a key spawn in players inventory. The key would open a chest in the Trade of Blades. That chest would contain the rewards for the match.
The whole idea is that pvp is an entirely different animal than pve but NWO doles out the main reward (astral diamonds) from dailys in a manner exactly like pve. To say you get a static amount of ad for showing up at a match period, is asking for problems.
Ah I did misunderstand you. I thought you were trying to say it would be an "I give up" circle where they wouldn't be able to fight anymore and just had to wait to get their rewards.
Ah I did misunderstand you. I thought you were trying to say it would be an "I give up" circle where they wouldn't be able to fight anymore and just had to wait to get their rewards.
I really think once you start a pvp match you should not be able to give up without losing out on something you would get for staying.
What about a give-up button in addition to matchmaking system and penalty for leavers?
If one team should be unable to win (for whatever reason) they could surrender instead of playing the whipping boys for the other team. It could be realised in different ways: maybe a democratic vote for the entire team or single players can signal that they want to get exchanged with a new player by the system.
This would be best. Every PvP system should come with that. It's insane to let the players do whatever the hell they want and think that's gonna create a good playing experience for most. It's like having a society without any rules.
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
It's not fun to fight five people with any less than five.
There needs to be leaver penalties because without them players will have no incentive not to leave.
When people leave matches it can make a hard a hard match into an impossible match or a winning match into a losing match. This not only makes the experience for the remaining losing members miserable but it also makes the whole ordeal pretty boring for the winning team as well.
The one that needs to be implemented, no if ands or buts, ASAP is that if you leave a match you can not requeue until your current match finishes.
No excuses. If you leave you forfeit your ability to continue to play. I don't care how badly you were losing because leaving the match is an act of selfishness that ruins everybody else's experience.
Penalties for repeat/consistent offenses would be great but that needs to be implemented as a bare minimum.
I have to say I have left a few matches and these are the one where my team just give up...
Even when they don't leave, it can often still end up being a 1 v 5 because your team runs around in the fireplace, not truly afking. So you have to set an allotted time they can sit in the spawn area and they get pushed out... because the ability to sit up there is the same as leaving in my opinion.
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
edited February 2014
Well, I read through this thread, cleaned it up a bit and want to address the big concern many of you have:
Leaving Penalties shouldn't be implemented until the matchmaking system is improved.
The matchmaking system is being improved. In fact it was going to be on the preview server already but QA found some issues with it and it has been delayed but it should be coming out fairly soon. That's not going to be a concern for that much longer.
As for surrendering, well I think a surrender option should be added but do note that rewards would have to be scaled based on the duration of the game. The likely reason it hasn't been implemented yet is because it could open the door for some exploitive behavior if it isn't done correctly.
And do note: surrendering is a group decision. Not an individual. Until a group surrender option is implemented I would rather have a good old stay or else because it should never be an individual decision to surrender which is why every PvP game in the world counts leaving and sitting AFK as a punishable offense.
Most importantly, though, leaver penalties even as basic as preventing queuing while your previous match is active would have to include a system that allows players to report those that are AFK or griefing in some way. That's self explanatory.
Something need to be done with quitters. I'm only level 49 at the moment, but I play a lot in domination matches (not only during PvP event but also regular times). I must admit that I started to play PvP in NWO for Glory (T1 PvP set giving +20% Stealth duration is awesome for TR both PvE and PvP, artifact and companion are also good thing to grab). But now I like PvP so much that I play it just for fun, glory is a bonus.
But quitters kill the fun of PvP. I don't have a problem with my butt delivered to me by more skilled players and losing badly - I'm average PvPer and still learning how to utilize rogue's skills, playing with PUGs so each match is completely different – in terms of tactics, gameplay and final result . But I have never quit the match, even if it was clearly lost. It rages me, really, really makes me furious when people leave the match after 45 seconds when score is 30:80 ("it's already lost”, they say) or they are easily killed once by skilled player. Yesterday it was the pinnacle of negative emotions for me. 5 times in a row it happened that my team had at least two quitters in the first 1-2 minutes.
It really kills all the fun. 2v5 or 3v5 is impossible to win, it's hard to score anything and get at least some fun (at most times it means 1-2 people versus full team of the opponents, so it’s just a matter of seconds before my squishy TR is torn apart). Ironically, I had the most fun with 1v5, when opposing team was kind enough to agree to 1v1 duels instead of rolfstomping me with their full force.
I fully support hard penalties for PvP quitters. Domination is optional activity in NWO, so if someone does not comply to the rules, GTFO. IMHO the debuffs/blocking entering pvp is not enough. People will switch character to alt or go to PvE without much concern. If quitters are in PvP for cheap Glory, strike them where it will pain them most. I think loosing all glory gained in previous finished domination match would be appropriate. Problem is with legit players who were unfortunate and their application or operating system crashed, it has to be implemented carefully.
Ratharel - stealthy backstabber from the Myth Drannor
admittedly im on the fence over leaving penalties. As casual PvPer, yes, I only PvP for the daily quests and use the glory to salvage for AD, but even so I've seen far too many matches go bad over members on my team quitting. Hell, at this point domination matches are pretty much a "who's team will quit first" contest.
That said, I also can understand quitting to a point. Granted, Im a "stay until it ends" type of person but that doesn't mean I wont be staying in the spawn area. But as others have said, what am I supposed to do when it 5vs 1? If I leave the spawn area I'll be dead before my feet hit the ground. So my choices boil down to either standing in the spawn area waiting for the match to end so I can get what little glory I can and most importantly, get my count towards the daily quest or be a punching bag for the other team to get more points while I still nothing else.
Whats that? learn to play you say? ok, How? How do I get better at PvP when Im dead before I can get a shot off? Get better gear you say? Ok, well I need glory for that and the only way to get glory is to PvP. Offer to 1v1 the other team? Sure, that doesn't mean the whole team will let me and thus im back to giving up easy points for them while I continue to learn nothing other then spawn camping is the best option.
Point trading. It's laughable how many PvPers hate this idea. First of all we're all there for the same reason, to get glory. So how is offering the losing but still remaining opposing team members some extra glory a bad thing? You're getting extra glory too and far more then you would by stomping them as they leave the spawn area...if they leave the spawn area. Sorry, but if you're against this then you clearly have an epeen issue. And no it's not an exploit, its making the best of a bad situation for everyone involved.
Now the quitters I dont understand are the ones that quit before you can even tell whats going to happen. I had a match the other day where 2 members quit while we were winning. Seriously, WTF? Or the people who quit because node 2 got capped first by the opposing team. Sorry, but node 2 is not the be all end all of domination. I have won matches by simply keeping 2 nodes capped at all times. Weather it 1 and 2 or 1 and 3 or 2 and 3 the bottom line was we kept the most nodes capped and won. So if you quit because you see the red team has capped node 2 first, you're an idiot.
And of course, a good match making system is must. No need to say why, it's been said a million times already.
Well, I read through this thread, cleaned it up a bit and want to address the big concern many of you have:
Leaving Penalties shouldn't be implemented until the matchmaking system is improved.
The matchmaking system is being improved. In fact it was going to be on the preview server already but QA found some issues with it and it has been delayed but it should be coming out fairly soon. That's not going to be a concern for that much longer.
As for surrendering, well I think a surrender option should be added but do note that rewards would have to be scaled based on the duration of the game. The likely reason it hasn't been implemented yet is because it could open the door for some exploitive behavior if it isn't done correctly.
And do note: surrendering is a group decision. Not an individual. Until a group surrender option is implemented I would rather have a good old stay or else because it should never be an individual decision to surrender which is why every PvP game in the world counts leaving and sitting AFK as a punishable offense.
Most importantly, though, leaver penalties even as basic as preventing queuing while your previous match is active would have to include a system that allows players to report those that are AFK or griefing in some way. That's self explanatory.
Oh, I thought about individual surrendering because it could be faster for the system to find just one player to join that battle. Although, I thought at first that surrendering should be a matter for the whole team, I slightly favour an individual option because the fight could continue that way and the one who got upset or furstrated could leave the team without heavily disturbing the others and faster (as I suppose that many players are too ego-centric as to wait till the whole team made up their mind).
Hold on, there should be no leaver penalty because I'll be damned if I get penalized because Cryptic can't keep there client from crashing. There should be no penalization what so ever and there is no need for it with the new "Elo" system because people won't be paired up with people way out of their league and won't be trampled 24/7. The leavers will lose Elo rank and fall down toward the bottom with the other leavers. All the leavers can PvP and leave with each other in their own matches.
Arc, proud officer of Novus Ordo
New to the game? Check out my build guide to give you an idea on how to set up your characters!
Oh, I thought about individual surrendering because it could be faster for the system to find just one player to join that battle. Although, I thought at first that surrendering should be a matter for the whole team, I slightly favour an individual option because the fight could continue that way and the one who got upset or furstrated could leave the team without heavily disturbing the others and faster (as I suppose that many players are too ego-centric as to wait till the whole team made up their mind).
You're only thinking of one side of the coin.
Imagine how the person who gets queued into a losing match would feel.
I have never seen a game which allows players to join an active arena. It just doesn't work. Either it will HAMSTER off the people who just happen to end up on the losing team or it would create a distasteful unpredictability. Arena games rely on players to determine at least a little bit of strategy based on the specific opponents they are fighting and when those opponents can't be reliably predicted and known over the course of the game it can severely effect the outcome of the game.
I am a Yankees (baseball) fan and something I noticed long ago is that the Yankees generally win when they are facing other teams that are contending for the pennant. They mainly lose to the last place teams. Why?
Unpredictability. If the team has no reason to do things 'intelligently' they do things that are not necessarily good ideas and are thus not expected. But since it is unexpected the competitive team is unprepared to deal with the change.
League of Legends shows this effect perfectly if you watch the difference between the top players and the lower end. If you ever watch some of the upper end players playing against lower end players it's not entirely uncommon for them to lose because they don't expect the wacky decisions some players make.
End result: Arena Games are team games. You go in as a team and you leave as a team.
Surrendering is a team decision. If the team doesn't agree to surrender and you choose to stop participating whether by leaving or not trying to win you are in the wrong and end up with penalties.
I am actually interested in the surrender option. I have been on all ends of the pvp stick. Smashed teams, fight to the last point matches, matches that I am the lone team member. I have left matches. Trying to grind glory to gear a character the match is usually 15 minutes or so of my time. If there is no chance of me getting any glory why waste my time so the overpowered team I am against gets to faceroll me over and over to get tons of glory they obviously don't need. The one main thing I like about current pvp is most matches are fast and end around the 15 minute mark. Hopefully the new system keeps this up.
Back to the surrender idea. Why not implement a surrender button for each team member. Everyone on the team has to make the vote for it to be valid. Like a vote to kick for pve only its a vote to surrender in pvp and all members must vote. You should also have a cancel button. Maybe I rushed to say I give up and later see my team has a fighting chance so I decide ok lets roll with this team.
Forgot to mention the penalty to not que again if you leave. Ok so its 400 to 0 everyone left but I am going to sit here and teach them for leaving. They wont be able to que until my time at this campfire or being facerolled by the opposite team ends. Because wait you cant sit at the campfire for more than a minute without auto ejection seat pushes you into the awaiting bloodthirsty team ready to slaughter you in seconds.
I'm against a surrender button unless it's an automatic no glory for the team that surrenders option.
I see it having the effect of being like pvp was at first with people afk farming, except in this case people would fight till they had 300 pts then click surrender to quick end the match, this would let them get their minimal glory for a loss but at a much quicker rate, perhaps under a minute allowing extremely high glory/min. This would probably actually make pvp worse than the leavers do.
I am a Yankees (baseball) fan and something I noticed long ago is that the Yankees generally win when they are facing other teams that are contending for the pennant. They mainly lose to the last place teams. Why?
Unpredictability. If the team has no reason to do things 'intelligently' they do things that are not necessarily good ideas and are thus not expected. But since it is unexpected the competitive team is unprepared to deal with the change.
League of Legends shows this effect perfectly if you watch the difference between the top players and the lower end. If you ever watch some of the upper end players playing against lower end players it's not entirely uncommon for them to lose because they don't expect the wacky decisions some players make.
The thing about baseball is that the Yankees plays in the Major Leagues. When we talk neverwinter top players vs newbies, we're talking about 15k+ gs players, with 50-80k effective hp, versus 6-12k gs players with 25-50k effective hp, and anywhere from 25%-400% more damage output. A more proper analogy would be the Yankees versus an elementary school baseball team.
Ok this is HAMSTER I've been DCed 4 times in one hour and I know that this leaver penalty will effect everybody with the same problem. I'm not even going to stand by and get penalized 4 times in one hour when I'm trying to play a game for fun.
Arc, proud officer of Novus Ordo
New to the game? Check out my build guide to give you an idea on how to set up your characters!
You're only thinking of one side of the coin.
Imagine how the person who gets queued into a losing match would feel.
I have never seen a game which allows players to join an active arena. It just doesn't work. Either it will HAMSTER off the people who just happen to end up on the losing team or it would create a distasteful unpredictability. Arena games rely on players to determine at least a little bit of strategy based on the specific opponents they are fighting and when those opponents can't be reliably predicted and known over the course of the game it can severely effect the outcome of the game.
I am a Yankees (baseball) fan and something I noticed long ago is that the Yankees generally win when they are facing other teams that are contending for the pennant. They mainly lose to the last place teams. Why?
Unpredictability. If the team has no reason to do things 'intelligently' they do things that are not necessarily good ideas and are thus not expected. But since it is unexpected the competitive team is unprepared to deal with the change.
League of Legends shows this effect perfectly if you watch the difference between the top players and the lower end. If you ever watch some of the upper end players playing against lower end players it's not entirely uncommon for them to lose because they don't expect the wacky decisions some players make.
End result: Arena Games are team games. You go in as a team and you leave as a team.
Surrendering is a team decision. If the team doesn't agree to surrender and you choose to stop participating whether by leaving or not trying to win you are in the wrong and end up with penalties.
The main flaw with a comparison of Neverwinter with a Yankee match is one simple point: every Yankee player gets paid for staying in a match, a Neverwinter player does not get paid and does it just for fun or pushing her ego.
So, to summarize it: the goal of these changes is to prevent leaving -- at least in great numbers.
I am still convinced that an individual surrender option is the best of the worst options we could use here; to be clear: individual surrender with an elo matchmaking system and a penalty for leavers if they do it intentionally (like locking them from the queue as long as the fight lasts and negative rating in the matchmaking system; alternatively just prevent players from leaving a fight altogether).
There could be different changes: individual surrender; team surrender; requirements for rewards; disabling of leaving; penalty for leaving; denunciation; and of all these I deem individual surrender to be the least pain for all, as long as an elo machmaking system is also employed.
Every one of these changes has its drawbacks:
Just a penalty for leavers?
Firstly, it could hit people with a disconnect too; then who cares about that? A penalty? No problem, just play the trollo and do nothing useful, just support the defeat of your own team by feeding the enemy team with kills, let them kill you and bring their attention to your teammates -- done.
Make players unable to leave the team?
Who cares? Just play the traitor again and spoil the plans of your own team. It will be all over faster for you.
Requirements for rewards? A certain number of kills are required to get any glory?
Nice, every defensive or assissting toon will get hit too, you can be gloating and just afk or leave or play the trollo again.
Team surrender?
To make things quick, just be the trollo and sabotage your team again with feeding kills to the enemy team and stop doing anything useful till your team gets sick of it and surrenders.
Denunciation?
Yeah! Now you can denunciate every one you dislike and looks ugly or is not nice to you; let the denunciation feast begin! Let people rage till they quit, and show your kindness to every no0b by denunciating them for being too weak (this is something DOTA2 tries and I saw this happen very often and it has a very rageful community).
Individual surrender?
Well, quite fast way to avoid any penalty and no need to stay too long with this bunch of no0bs. But still a player could choose to play the trollo again and be a feeder. (Yes, joining a losing team could be frustrating -- as much as it is to have leavers around or feeders wanting their own team to lose quickly.)
As for joining a losing team: I had a team which got facerolled but as the enemies had around 800 points, my random team got the hang of it but we still lost in the end with 940 to 999 as the enemies made their last one point.
In other random teams I saw people giving up and just staying on the campfire or leaving right away; so, what good do they do to a fight? They could just leave, it would make no difference but with an individual surrender option at least the system will search for a replacement and maybe a team gets a fresh player who is willing to help again -- with the same rank in the matchmaking system like all the others.
Individual surrender will not change the players but would make attractive a way of leaving which will not hurt a team as much as leavers do right now. The same problem will still persist with only a penalty for leavers as they will just get encouraged to help defeating their own team.
I think life-time stats and an option to see who is on your team before you accept the que is called for. Quitting should be tracked. Players will sort out for themselves how much quitting is tolerable and at what point you can predict you have a quitter on your team before you accept. So you can not accept and just re-que. For example, Joe Toon lifetime stats: 1200 matches played, 800 wins, 200 losses, 200 quits. That would probably be acceptable. But Bob Toon, 1200 matches played, 400 wins, 50 losses, 750 quits...nope, Bob Toon is a quitter, you don't want to be on his team despite the fact he might rank higher in wins/losses matchmaking system.
PanzerJäger HR Hybrid Jugger Conq GF
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
edited February 2014
The point of leaver penalties is to prevent people from leaving.
Prevent them from spoiling the enjoyment of everybody else.
If a leaving penalty could be superseded by simply clicking "I want to make everybody else's life miserable" button it would be completely pointless to add the penalty to begin with.
Bottom line is there is NO point in time where a person should leave a match on their own. None.
Paid for or not, strategies are formed based on knowing your opponents. But that was actually a minor consideration. The grand point is that joining an active match would be a nightmare. An endless nightmare. I just didn't think I had to go into detail because it should be self evident.
There is no universe where joining an active arena would be good. The system could be left exactly as it is and still be better than having to deal with joining active matches.
Find a game with Team Arena PvP that allows individual surrenders. Just one.
It doesn't exist. There is no such thing.
People joining a match not only messes with the meta but it would be a miserable position to be in, especially if you were unable to obtain the minimum amount of points in order to obtain a reward due to the decreased time.
Imagine joining a match where the team lost so badly that the enemy team is all organised to prevent you from forming any counter-attack. Heck it could even be caused because the person left and now the team is basically preventing you from leaving the base. It sucks but it's inevitable to happen.
Or how about joining a match which only has two minutes left. What are the chances you get the minimum contributions. Quite slim.
It's a nightmare waiting to happen. I could literally write a thirty page essay on why it should not and does not ever happen in any game.
It's just completely and utterly impractical. Team surrenders and leaver penalties are the only system used for a reason.
The point of leaver penalties is to prevent people from leaving.
Prevent them from spoiling the enjoyment of everybody else.
If a leaving penalty could be superseded by simply clicking "I want to make everybody else's life miserable" button it would be completely pointless to add the penalty to begin with.
Bottom line is there is NO point in time where a person should leave a match on their own. None.
Paid for or not, strategies are formed based on knowing your opponents. But that was actually a minor consideration. The grand point is that joining an active match would be a nightmare. An endless nightmare. I just didn't think I had to go into detail because it should be self evident.
There is no universe where joining an active arena would be good. The system could be left exactly as it is and still be better than having to deal with joining active matches.
Find a game with Team Arena PvP that allows individual surrenders. Just one.
It doesn't exist. There is no such thing.
People joining a match not only messes with the meta but it would be a miserable position to be in, especially if you were unable to obtain the minimum amount of points in order to obtain a reward due to the decreased time.
Imagine joining a match where the team lost so badly that the enemy team is all organised to prevent you from forming any counter-attack. Heck it could even be caused because the person left and now the team is basically preventing you from leaving the base. It sucks but it's inevitable to happen.
Or how about joining a match which only has two minutes left. What are the chances you get the minimum contributions. Quite slim.
It's a nightmare waiting to happen. I could literally write a thirty page essay on why it should not and does not ever happen in any game.
It's just completely and utterly impractical. Team surrenders and leaver penalties are the only system used for a reason.
Well, if nobody tries it, nobody knows its effects, and it all reminds me of the Tenacity thread where many played the doomsayer before even testing it. I just read from you about so-called problems and bad effects that are floating around like fog and they all should be self-evident. Well, I think it is to the devs to discuss such things and to bring out the detailed mechanics: they know what they want.
Neverwinter has the advantage not to be a team arena pvp game, but to be just a mmo with a pvp mode for both pvp players and pve players; and this is the very reason why penalties will not work in Neverwinter like in other team arena pvp games: pvp is not all, it is just one aspect of the game and if players in pvp games get a ban form the queue they are banned from the entire game -- not so in Neverwinter.
I saw a problem and I tried to think of a solution for that specific problem: pve players queueing for pvp to complete a pvp daily or to gather glory. There is no honour, there is no enthusiasm, there is no loyalty, there is only the intention to complete a daily or to gather some glory. Moreover, in random teams there is very rarely room for elaborated tactics or counterattacks, they are simply -- random.
If one goes with premade teams then noone will surrender or else he will get a bad reputation among their own team or others. It is another thing with random teams and I saw often the situation where we just had too few people to win by means of defeating the others quickly enough and holding all points. There is also space to finetune the function of refilling teams and allowing every player to surrender (there could be time windows for both functions to give the chance of getting enough points).
After all, hopefully the devs will find a way to tackle these problems Neverwinter currently has with pvp; and I just had an idea and proposed it because I think people would use it to have less frustration and I do not think that punishing people is the only and best option to adress them.
Comments
This is not a "hardcore vs. softcore" thing. It's a "stop being so friggin' selfish and take one for the team occasionally" thing.
With the new matchmaking system and pvp stats on gear far less people will be leaving. Hopefully we will be able to see the ranking for the matchmaking system for ourselves and or others. I can see myself wasting endless hours trying to improve my rank LOL.
Some will still camp the fire and or leave because of just wanting the daily ad.
If the pvp gear drops the pve gear score so you don't just grind pvp to get into epic dungeons the non pvp types will stop leaving and camping the fire.
Taking one for my team would be fine, if there was chance that we would win, taking one so that my opposition get more kills is ridiculous, and the gwf thing is a game balance issue which I believe is being addressed this patch anyway.
Translated....You have to play the game to get stuff. MIND BLOWING!
I am against penalties period. I would advocate rewarding desired behavior rather than punishing undesirable behavior. What if everyone on the team leaves except you? Do you stay and not be punished, or do you leave and take the punishment rather than waiting for the red team to win? That is an even split and I think most people would still rather leave and suffer some temporary ban that likely would take no longer than the rest of the match anyways.
I am for straight out "you score more points as a player, you gain more (whatever), even if your team loses" and no reward until the end of the match. You don't leave a dungeon prior to opening the chest. Winning being tied directly to who does the best in a match, the winners will still receive a higher reward. Losers will want to keep playing to receive the reward.
There could even be a locked "no-pvp" area on the pvp maps that has a chest and only opens at the end of the match. Players would have to go to the chest to open it for their reward. Better yet you get a key to a chest in the Trade of Blades and after pvp everyone simply spawns back there, to claim their reward.
Jugger Conq GF
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Safe area's encourage exploiting the system and should be eliminated. Fix queue bugs, add a leaver penalty and add ramps to the spawns.
Everyone wants to punish the leavers but would a system not be better that prevents leaving but gives the option to surrender? Like I said, it could be done that one team has to vote whether they all want to surrender or every player can decide for himself and will get kicked eventually by the system if he pressed the button and replaced by someone else with similar elo rank.
Or if it is not possible to prevent the players from leaving then there can be a penalty for force leaving anyway as it hurts everybody else, but a leaving via surrender would not hurt anyone.
Not sure if you know what I meant by the "no-pvp area". It would simply be a room behind a door. The room would contain a chest and the chest would contain the rewards for the match. The door wouldn't open until the match was completely over. I can't see how that would encourage exploits. The other idea is to simply have a key spawn in players inventory. The key would open a chest in the Trade of Blades. That chest would contain the rewards for the match.
The whole idea is that pvp is an entirely different animal than pve but NWO doles out the main reward (astral diamonds) from dailys in a manner exactly like pve. To say you get a static amount of ad for showing up at a match period, is asking for problems.
Jugger Conq GF
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I really think once you start a pvp match you should not be able to give up without losing out on something you would get for staying.
Jugger Conq GF
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This would be best. Every PvP system should come with that. It's insane to let the players do whatever the hell they want and think that's gonna create a good playing experience for most. It's like having a society without any rules.
It's not fun to fight five people with any less than five.
There needs to be leaver penalties because without them players will have no incentive not to leave.
When people leave matches it can make a hard a hard match into an impossible match or a winning match into a losing match. This not only makes the experience for the remaining losing members miserable but it also makes the whole ordeal pretty boring for the winning team as well.
The one that needs to be implemented, no if ands or buts, ASAP is that if you leave a match you can not requeue until your current match finishes.
No excuses. If you leave you forfeit your ability to continue to play. I don't care how badly you were losing because leaving the match is an act of selfishness that ruins everybody else's experience.
Penalties for repeat/consistent offenses would be great but that needs to be implemented as a bare minimum.
Even when they don't leave, it can often still end up being a 1 v 5 because your team runs around in the fireplace, not truly afking. So you have to set an allotted time they can sit in the spawn area and they get pushed out... because the ability to sit up there is the same as leaving in my opinion.
Leaving Penalties shouldn't be implemented until the matchmaking system is improved.
The matchmaking system is being improved. In fact it was going to be on the preview server already but QA found some issues with it and it has been delayed but it should be coming out fairly soon. That's not going to be a concern for that much longer.
As for surrendering, well I think a surrender option should be added but do note that rewards would have to be scaled based on the duration of the game. The likely reason it hasn't been implemented yet is because it could open the door for some exploitive behavior if it isn't done correctly.
And do note: surrendering is a group decision. Not an individual. Until a group surrender option is implemented I would rather have a good old stay or else because it should never be an individual decision to surrender which is why every PvP game in the world counts leaving and sitting AFK as a punishable offense.
Most importantly, though, leaver penalties even as basic as preventing queuing while your previous match is active would have to include a system that allows players to report those that are AFK or griefing in some way. That's self explanatory.
But quitters kill the fun of PvP. I don't have a problem with my butt delivered to me by more skilled players and losing badly - I'm average PvPer and still learning how to utilize rogue's skills, playing with PUGs so each match is completely different – in terms of tactics, gameplay and final result . But I have never quit the match, even if it was clearly lost. It rages me, really, really makes me furious when people leave the match after 45 seconds when score is 30:80 ("it's already lost”, they say) or they are easily killed once by skilled player. Yesterday it was the pinnacle of negative emotions for me. 5 times in a row it happened that my team had at least two quitters in the first 1-2 minutes.
It really kills all the fun. 2v5 or 3v5 is impossible to win, it's hard to score anything and get at least some fun (at most times it means 1-2 people versus full team of the opponents, so it’s just a matter of seconds before my squishy TR is torn apart). Ironically, I had the most fun with 1v5, when opposing team was kind enough to agree to 1v1 duels instead of rolfstomping me with their full force.
I fully support hard penalties for PvP quitters. Domination is optional activity in NWO, so if someone does not comply to the rules, GTFO. IMHO the debuffs/blocking entering pvp is not enough. People will switch character to alt or go to PvE without much concern. If quitters are in PvP for cheap Glory, strike them where it will pain them most. I think loosing all glory gained in previous finished domination match would be appropriate. Problem is with legit players who were unfortunate and their application or operating system crashed, it has to be implemented carefully.
That said, I also can understand quitting to a point. Granted, Im a "stay until it ends" type of person but that doesn't mean I wont be staying in the spawn area. But as others have said, what am I supposed to do when it 5vs 1? If I leave the spawn area I'll be dead before my feet hit the ground. So my choices boil down to either standing in the spawn area waiting for the match to end so I can get what little glory I can and most importantly, get my count towards the daily quest or be a punching bag for the other team to get more points while I still nothing else.
Whats that? learn to play you say? ok, How? How do I get better at PvP when Im dead before I can get a shot off? Get better gear you say? Ok, well I need glory for that and the only way to get glory is to PvP. Offer to 1v1 the other team? Sure, that doesn't mean the whole team will let me and thus im back to giving up easy points for them while I continue to learn nothing other then spawn camping is the best option.
Point trading. It's laughable how many PvPers hate this idea. First of all we're all there for the same reason, to get glory. So how is offering the losing but still remaining opposing team members some extra glory a bad thing? You're getting extra glory too and far more then you would by stomping them as they leave the spawn area...if they leave the spawn area. Sorry, but if you're against this then you clearly have an epeen issue. And no it's not an exploit, its making the best of a bad situation for everyone involved.
Now the quitters I dont understand are the ones that quit before you can even tell whats going to happen. I had a match the other day where 2 members quit while we were winning. Seriously, WTF? Or the people who quit because node 2 got capped first by the opposing team. Sorry, but node 2 is not the be all end all of domination. I have won matches by simply keeping 2 nodes capped at all times. Weather it 1 and 2 or 1 and 3 or 2 and 3 the bottom line was we kept the most nodes capped and won. So if you quit because you see the red team has capped node 2 first, you're an idiot.
And of course, a good match making system is must. No need to say why, it's been said a million times already.
Oh, I thought about individual surrendering because it could be faster for the system to find just one player to join that battle. Although, I thought at first that surrendering should be a matter for the whole team, I slightly favour an individual option because the fight could continue that way and the one who got upset or furstrated could leave the team without heavily disturbing the others and faster (as I suppose that many players are too ego-centric as to wait till the whole team made up their mind).
You're only thinking of one side of the coin.
Imagine how the person who gets queued into a losing match would feel.
I have never seen a game which allows players to join an active arena. It just doesn't work. Either it will HAMSTER off the people who just happen to end up on the losing team or it would create a distasteful unpredictability. Arena games rely on players to determine at least a little bit of strategy based on the specific opponents they are fighting and when those opponents can't be reliably predicted and known over the course of the game it can severely effect the outcome of the game.
I am a Yankees (baseball) fan and something I noticed long ago is that the Yankees generally win when they are facing other teams that are contending for the pennant. They mainly lose to the last place teams. Why?
Unpredictability. If the team has no reason to do things 'intelligently' they do things that are not necessarily good ideas and are thus not expected. But since it is unexpected the competitive team is unprepared to deal with the change.
League of Legends shows this effect perfectly if you watch the difference between the top players and the lower end. If you ever watch some of the upper end players playing against lower end players it's not entirely uncommon for them to lose because they don't expect the wacky decisions some players make.
End result: Arena Games are team games. You go in as a team and you leave as a team.
Surrendering is a team decision. If the team doesn't agree to surrender and you choose to stop participating whether by leaving or not trying to win you are in the wrong and end up with penalties.
Back to the surrender idea. Why not implement a surrender button for each team member. Everyone on the team has to make the vote for it to be valid. Like a vote to kick for pve only its a vote to surrender in pvp and all members must vote. You should also have a cancel button. Maybe I rushed to say I give up and later see my team has a fighting chance so I decide ok lets roll with this team.
Forgot to mention the penalty to not que again if you leave. Ok so its 400 to 0 everyone left but I am going to sit here and teach them for leaving. They wont be able to que until my time at this campfire or being facerolled by the opposite team ends. Because wait you cant sit at the campfire for more than a minute without auto ejection seat pushes you into the awaiting bloodthirsty team ready to slaughter you in seconds.
I see it having the effect of being like pvp was at first with people afk farming, except in this case people would fight till they had 300 pts then click surrender to quick end the match, this would let them get their minimal glory for a loss but at a much quicker rate, perhaps under a minute allowing extremely high glory/min. This would probably actually make pvp worse than the leavers do.
The thing about baseball is that the Yankees plays in the Major Leagues. When we talk neverwinter top players vs newbies, we're talking about 15k+ gs players, with 50-80k effective hp, versus 6-12k gs players with 25-50k effective hp, and anywhere from 25%-400% more damage output. A more proper analogy would be the Yankees versus an elementary school baseball team.
The main flaw with a comparison of Neverwinter with a Yankee match is one simple point: every Yankee player gets paid for staying in a match, a Neverwinter player does not get paid and does it just for fun or pushing her ego.
So, to summarize it: the goal of these changes is to prevent leaving -- at least in great numbers.
I am still convinced that an individual surrender option is the best of the worst options we could use here; to be clear: individual surrender with an elo matchmaking system and a penalty for leavers if they do it intentionally (like locking them from the queue as long as the fight lasts and negative rating in the matchmaking system; alternatively just prevent players from leaving a fight altogether).
There could be different changes: individual surrender; team surrender; requirements for rewards; disabling of leaving; penalty for leaving; denunciation; and of all these I deem individual surrender to be the least pain for all, as long as an elo machmaking system is also employed.
Every one of these changes has its drawbacks:
Just a penalty for leavers?
Firstly, it could hit people with a disconnect too; then who cares about that? A penalty? No problem, just play the trollo and do nothing useful, just support the defeat of your own team by feeding the enemy team with kills, let them kill you and bring their attention to your teammates -- done.
Make players unable to leave the team?
Who cares? Just play the traitor again and spoil the plans of your own team. It will be all over faster for you.
Requirements for rewards? A certain number of kills are required to get any glory?
Nice, every defensive or assissting toon will get hit too, you can be gloating and just afk or leave or play the trollo again.
Team surrender?
To make things quick, just be the trollo and sabotage your team again with feeding kills to the enemy team and stop doing anything useful till your team gets sick of it and surrenders.
Denunciation?
Yeah! Now you can denunciate every one you dislike and looks ugly or is not nice to you; let the denunciation feast begin! Let people rage till they quit, and show your kindness to every no0b by denunciating them for being too weak (this is something DOTA2 tries and I saw this happen very often and it has a very rageful community).
Individual surrender?
Well, quite fast way to avoid any penalty and no need to stay too long with this bunch of no0bs. But still a player could choose to play the trollo again and be a feeder. (Yes, joining a losing team could be frustrating -- as much as it is to have leavers around or feeders wanting their own team to lose quickly.)
As for joining a losing team: I had a team which got facerolled but as the enemies had around 800 points, my random team got the hang of it but we still lost in the end with 940 to 999 as the enemies made their last one point.
In other random teams I saw people giving up and just staying on the campfire or leaving right away; so, what good do they do to a fight? They could just leave, it would make no difference but with an individual surrender option at least the system will search for a replacement and maybe a team gets a fresh player who is willing to help again -- with the same rank in the matchmaking system like all the others.
Individual surrender will not change the players but would make attractive a way of leaving which will not hurt a team as much as leavers do right now. The same problem will still persist with only a penalty for leavers as they will just get encouraged to help defeating their own team.
Jugger Conq GF
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Prevent them from spoiling the enjoyment of everybody else.
If a leaving penalty could be superseded by simply clicking "I want to make everybody else's life miserable" button it would be completely pointless to add the penalty to begin with.
Bottom line is there is NO point in time where a person should leave a match on their own. None.
Paid for or not, strategies are formed based on knowing your opponents. But that was actually a minor consideration. The grand point is that joining an active match would be a nightmare. An endless nightmare. I just didn't think I had to go into detail because it should be self evident.
There is no universe where joining an active arena would be good. The system could be left exactly as it is and still be better than having to deal with joining active matches.
Find a game with Team Arena PvP that allows individual surrenders. Just one.
It doesn't exist. There is no such thing.
People joining a match not only messes with the meta but it would be a miserable position to be in, especially if you were unable to obtain the minimum amount of points in order to obtain a reward due to the decreased time.
Imagine joining a match where the team lost so badly that the enemy team is all organised to prevent you from forming any counter-attack. Heck it could even be caused because the person left and now the team is basically preventing you from leaving the base. It sucks but it's inevitable to happen.
Or how about joining a match which only has two minutes left. What are the chances you get the minimum contributions. Quite slim.
It's a nightmare waiting to happen. I could literally write a thirty page essay on why it should not and does not ever happen in any game.
It's just completely and utterly impractical. Team surrenders and leaver penalties are the only system used for a reason.
Well, if nobody tries it, nobody knows its effects, and it all reminds me of the Tenacity thread where many played the doomsayer before even testing it. I just read from you about so-called problems and bad effects that are floating around like fog and they all should be self-evident. Well, I think it is to the devs to discuss such things and to bring out the detailed mechanics: they know what they want.
Neverwinter has the advantage not to be a team arena pvp game, but to be just a mmo with a pvp mode for both pvp players and pve players; and this is the very reason why penalties will not work in Neverwinter like in other team arena pvp games: pvp is not all, it is just one aspect of the game and if players in pvp games get a ban form the queue they are banned from the entire game -- not so in Neverwinter.
I saw a problem and I tried to think of a solution for that specific problem: pve players queueing for pvp to complete a pvp daily or to gather glory. There is no honour, there is no enthusiasm, there is no loyalty, there is only the intention to complete a daily or to gather some glory. Moreover, in random teams there is very rarely room for elaborated tactics or counterattacks, they are simply -- random.
If one goes with premade teams then noone will surrender or else he will get a bad reputation among their own team or others. It is another thing with random teams and I saw often the situation where we just had too few people to win by means of defeating the others quickly enough and holding all points. There is also space to finetune the function of refilling teams and allowing every player to surrender (there could be time windows for both functions to give the chance of getting enough points).
After all, hopefully the devs will find a way to tackle these problems Neverwinter currently has with pvp; and I just had an idea and proposed it because I think people would use it to have less frustration and I do not think that punishing people is the only and best option to adress them.