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How come hardly anyone use melee weapons?
ladymythos
Member, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild Users Posts: 637 Bounty Hunter
This is something that puzzles me a lot. I've played with dozens of hunters in groups since it was released, and yet, I can count the ones using melee weapons on one hand. Why is this? Why are hardly anyone using their trusted blades or axes? Even when they are surrounded by enemies, most rangers just stand there with the bow.
If you ask me, I think we should be required to press the Tab-key a couple of times before we are allowed to pick a hunter in the first place. Tab is vital to me for a simple reason: My axes does about the same damage as the bow pr hit, but I hit at least twice as fast. In other words: It's melee range only, but I do at least twice as much damage as with the bow. And that's before we start with encounter skills. With those... things that take thirty seconds to kill with a bow go down in less than five seconds with my axes.
Which again raises the question: Why are most HRs using the bow only?
(I'm talking PvE here, btw. I'm not exactly a PvP person.)
If you ask me, I think we should be required to press the Tab-key a couple of times before we are allowed to pick a hunter in the first place. Tab is vital to me for a simple reason: My axes does about the same damage as the bow pr hit, but I hit at least twice as fast. In other words: It's melee range only, but I do at least twice as much damage as with the bow. And that's before we start with encounter skills. With those... things that take thirty seconds to kill with a bow go down in less than five seconds with my axes.
Which again raises the question: Why are most HRs using the bow only?
(I'm talking PvE here, btw. I'm not exactly a PvP person.)
Post edited by ladymythos on
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-Squishiness: HR are not as tanky as gf or gwf by the nature of the class. HR also do not have 'oh-****' button like rogues' Impossible to catch. And last but not least HR's dodge does not work all time, which means there is time that you dodge but still got blow up by AoE.
-Effectiveness: Sure melee HR can be very competitive in dungeons. However, it takes a lot more efforts than being range. While nature or archery, who just sit back in safe range to deal damage (split shot ftw), combat HR have to dive in mobs to do so, and due to the reason above, this could be very risky. Also, melee HR have to switch stances alot, spam much more skills than range HR.
Pretty much this it takes to much effort to b effective doing melee dps and is just plain easier to stay back at ranged also split shot is perfect for spreading mass PF Enchantment debuff also the proc from grasping roots as well and other DoT enchant affects loseing it is kinda out of the question just to do a little more melee dmg.
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- dailies are same in meelee and ranged stance, so doesn't matter
- many of his feats improve dmg in ranged stance, so his ranged At-Wills hit more than his meelee ones (no, you won't convince me that my Split Strike hits for more than Split Shot)
- that leaves us with encounters. Two strongest encounters for an archer at the moment are Thorn Ward and Split the Sky. Thorn Strike is a mediocre dmg, long animation, single target attack. There is no reason to use it, much less switch your stance for it. Throw Caution even further encourages you to switch back to ranged after using it, as you don't want to be in meelee range when your defenses are lowered
- That leaves us with one encounter. Which encounter is in your opinion good enough to make me stay in meelee? There are buffs (use and switch back to ranged), charges (but why charge when meelee offers nothing else for you), 2 meelee aoe attacks (and ranged version aren't that good for pve - Constricting and Hindering Arrow), Rain of Blades (again, with that long animation, you will do more dps with Split Strike, not even mentioning Split Shot). And Fox Shift. The only meelee attack worth using as an archer - and that one gets a lot of use, either in PvP (where everyone uses it), or in some situations in PvE (I like it on both Valindra's fight to burst the grip)
And that's it, there are no more ranger skills and there is still no reason for me to use meelee more than I do (Throw Caution/Fox Shift)
NW-DMFGWPBN3 The Lost City - Review Thread
Standing toe-to-toe with mobs using the bow (especially surrounded) is definitely a poor ranger.
I *prefer* ranged as I am ranged spec'ed and do more damage the further away I can get, so I am usually jockeying for as much range as I can get. However, if I am rushed or surrounded by a couple of heavily wounded mobs, I will definitely switch into melee to finish them off, or lure them into my tank (or the group) and immediately escape back to ranged.
Encounter Matrix | Advanced Foundry Topics
Not entirely true. Are you really going to move away if you have some weak mobs on you just to take them out at range, or are you just going to kill them in a couple shots while they are close. If it is a stronger mob then I can see that. I have done that on occasion myself, I am range spec'ed on both my HRs. I have only done FC in GG but every time I am ranked 2 or 3 for DPS. I don't spam split shot like others do. I use all my encounters ( split the sky, thorn ward and rain of arrows) and my at wills ( split shot and aimed shot)
For example with Split Shot I hit for 2-6k (normal to crit range) while Split Strike hits for 1-3k, hitting 5 targets with Split Shot might require I move a little and tap, hitting 5 targets with Split Strike requires the CW to have dropped them in a Singu clump practically right in front of me. Both Rapid and Aimed follow the same pattern of significantly higher damage in ranged stance than melee.
Then there is the squishiness problem...
Obsidian Oath - Warlock
A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
But any one debuffing with PF and proper split and aimed shot usage on bosses and groups with proper encounter rotations can still easily Keep up or out DpS Them with half the effort.
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Doesn't matter that it does 10 times more DPS than encounter powers!
It's perfectly balanced!
It's balanced, but balanced far differently than other classes. Ranger encounter powers are for the most part utility, debuffing the enemy, buffing the team, and providing light amounts of damage. (A few exceptions to this) Most ranger damage comes from at wills, this makes people that are used to other classes feel that the class is horribly imbalanced as it is the exact opposite of the rest of the classes. However if you run with equal geared equal skilled people
TR>HR at single target
HR>GWF at aoe dmg but if you take the HR into the unholy mess that the GWF stands in the HR will turn to paste.
CW=HR depending on build a CW can either have more, equal, or less dps than an HR
This means as a whole the dps potential of the HR is balanced. Now there are some abilities that should be brought up a little bit, I think electric shot should be buffed so that it's viable to use. Melee skills also need a buff so that melee builds can contribute more dps in PvE. However the class as a whole is balanced.
Example: We're in MC, engaging 1st Boss. I will use fox shift ranged for 100% dodge, aimed shot ---> if it proc 100% crit on next encounter, rain of arrows, otherwise, tab to melee, marauder - crits for 15k for me, tab-tab for 15% dmg buff during travel time, aimed shot melee for dot, tab tab during animation, fox shift melee, tab, rain of arrows, marauder escape or aimed shot depending if I have to pull back or can channel it etc.
I know you can do fine just spamming split shot on trash. I don't mind being 2nd in dmg done after CW or GWF (am only 12k GS, been doing MC since 10k GS) like 300-800k dmg behind, as long as I have fun, don't die, support my group (100% dodge helps, stunning big hitters / casters every 8s with disruptive helps too) - split spamming - boring, doing some melee for nice damage and bouncing back and forth is cool) and carry my weight.
If you are in some elitist guild or LFG groups asking for 15k+ GS, then by all means, min-max and theorycraft to limits, for legit channel players we don't care if we clear MC in 15 min or 18 or 20. We don't run MC only with CW's or DC's. We do any combo (even w/o any interrupts on valindra) and finish it and have fun
It's not a competition. Paingiver / Executioneer are not real representatives of what your team is doing. It's a game. Have fun. Sure don't go spamming rapid shot melee like a boss when you're ranged build. But use your abilities to their full potential and have fun! I stopped playing my CW because she got boring. 4 encounters, most of them used in a precise order for maximum damage / CC efficiency. Every fight it's same (most of them). As a ranger at least I feel like am actually playing, am involved, I go in the thick of it, do a burst dmg, move back to ranged, aoe, pop 100% dodge, interrupt X while dpsing Y so that my CW doesn't have to move and cancel his steal time or w/e.
Split the sky is horrible in most scenarios. 1st it requires mobs to be packed up and attacking. If you have CW(s) in your group that will very rarely if ever happen. Thorn ward is nice - IMHO - only when the boss doesn't move (or doesn't move much) so that you can place it on top of him to make it stack the debuff on target you want, in any fight where's loads of adds and boss moves / teleports w/e, it's useless.
Personally am running fox shift, rain of arrows, marauder, with FG and DS as dailies.
Sooo many people get hung up on maximum DPS and don't even think about stuns and disruption. You certainly don't gain any DPS points, but you just prevented a lot of pain from your party. They should add a "disrupted DPS" stat! :-)
Encounter Matrix | Advanced Foundry Topics
If you get into a group with a good gwf, (The leeerrrooooyyy Jenkins builds are great for this) try split the sky again. They'll typically group up large amounts of mobs on them and be taking hits. This means you are going to get a lot of dps out of it, and improve the gwf's dps if they're running trample the fallen. There is great synergy between the two classes for this type of move.
1. You say you do more damage with the bow at a distance. That's fine, but I'm talking about when you are surrounded by mobs, as in they are right next to you. Distance isn't an option. So why still use the bow?
2. Why spent 30 seconds taking out a few weak mobs next to you with the bow, when you can do it in five seconds with the blades?
3. Of course the ranger is, well, ranged. Even I want to use the bow a lot. Sure it might look like a ninja when using blades, but I got a lvl 60 for my ninjaness. But sometimes, the bow isn't always the best option, whether you are ranged-specced or hybrid-specced. So why ignore the blades?
4. No matter how you are specced, the blades are part of your weaponry. By cutting them out, you are effectivly cutting out half your encounter-skills. You don't see many DCs focusing entirely on healing or DPS, do you? I bet if you were a DC and focused entirely on healing or DPS, you would do a lot more healing/damage. But that would limit the class a lot, so people go with both. So why stick to the bow entirely if you are a ranger?
5. It's not always just about damage. Some big mobs charge at you a lot, try to get behind you and use big attacks to do a lot of damage. In these cases, mobility is the key, and the bow is about as far from mobility as you can get. As you said, you need to stay away from the enemies if you use the bow, as you get more damage the farther away you stay. But if the enemies don't want to stay away? In this case, the best solution is to stop trying to get away from it, and rather try to stay behind it - by switching to daggers, stabbing a few times and dodging a lot. It's a tactic I specialize in as a rogue, and a HR with blades are very rogue-like.
Of course, dungeons are different - sort of. You have others to protect you, so you don't need to use blades often. That said, there are times you do. Even in the easiest dungeons or skirmishes, there are times when you will get swarmed by enemies, or attacked at melee-ranged by big ones. In these cases, the main key to survival is to adapt to the situation and exploit it.
To be fair, I think people who only focus on archery are missing out a lot, despite doing a bit more damage than us hybrids. Not that I'm saying it's wrong to play like that, of course. Only that I really prefer someone who knows the class on my team, rather than yet another "lol, I'm Legolas."
Never hitting tab is wrong, however you are making a big mistake in thinking that you can take out the mobs quicker regardless of their str by swaping to melee skills as an archery build. You won't. Even at point blank range you will kill the mobs faster with an archery build staying in ranged skill mode. Even if you get flanked by weak mobs you will kill them faster with a quick shift then split shot than you will with split strike. The most common encounters for archery builds are thorn ward, split the sky and either rain of arrows or commanding shot, none of these have a good melee component. Now if you are using foxes yes that will work but that is a situational skill in most archery rangers lists.
Things an archery based ranger should hit tab for.
split the sky's melee component that buffs your power
the temp hp from commanding shot
the heal from binding shot
fox shift
hitting tab to melee down adds with your at wills or any encounter other than fox shift will slow down killing the mobs which means you will take more damage even solo.
All your points revolve around the point that you get more benefit from fighting in meelee than in ranged. Can you name one meelee ability that isn't a buff (you can buff and switch back to ranged) or Fox Shift (that is commonly used) that gives me enough dmg/utility to make me stay in meelee stance for longer than a split second?
#1: If you're talking about PvE, most people would assume you mean dungeons, as the solo content is pretty much Split Shot -> Fox Shift -> Dead
#2: You are right, ranger will get swarmed in a dungeon. Actually, it's not even 'sometimes', as you describe, it's about 90% of the time in my case. However, I am not a GWF that can take the beating of 10 mobs going after me, so it actually further encourages me to stay in ranged and kite (You can create distance by pressing Shift. Or using your movement keys if you are out of stamina)
NW-DMFGWPBN3 The Lost City - Review Thread
And as for skills, that's yet another thing you guys seems to be missing. You keep talking about ranged skills vs melee skills, but did it ever occur to you that you can use both at once? You can switch between ranged and melee in combat all you want. There's no cooldown or anything like that to worry about. So you can stay in melee, do a quick switch to ranged, fire off Split the sky, then switch back to melee. Or stay in ranged, switch to melee, use a skill to get a buff, then switch back to ranged. It takes less than a second to switch between them, and a melee-buff doesn't expire when you go back to ranged.
And that is what I am talking about. How come no one ever does that? You can talk all you want about melee skills bewing "just buffs", but why not use those buffs for all they're worth, even as a ranged fighter? Or when you are surrounded by enemies, why not use both melee and a ranged skill like Split the sky? (just to take a random skill).
Use forest Ghost and marauders out and keep on split shotting while breaking any monster agro you may have had and you get 2 forest ghost so monsters really shouldn't be up on you all the time with proper maneuvering and skill usage. Plz dont give me that what if your surrounded at close range bullcrap. Split strike still will not even do half the dmg as split shot will same goes for rapid strike and shot. And Even if your a hybrid range you're still going to go deep down the archery tree because its the tree with the better hybrid buffs and most its buffs can benefit ranged and melee use as well Cough Correcting Aim cough Prime Crit Cough Cough.
And as for skills, that's yet another thing you guys seems to be missing. You keep talking about ranged skills vs melee skills, but did it ever occur to you that you can use both at once?
There is still a dmg falloff once you get down your prefered tree once you hit further down the archery tree you will see the melee dmg and ranged dmg start to differ alot your only lvl 35 so you should start seeing its soon just use black arrow you will immediately see the crit dmg buff from you ranged atwills and skills. Also we get more shifts in ranged stance Ghost walker.
And that is what I am talking about. How come no one ever does that? You can talk all you want about melee skills bewing "just buffs", but why not use those buffs for all they're worth, even as a ranged fighter? Or when you are surrounded by enemies, why not use both melee and a ranged skill like Split the sky? (just to take a random skill).
Hawkeye Oak Skin Unless their traited their terrible Throw caution is on the borderline of OK Some ranger will use it others will not some think its just two risky to lower your deff for a small increase in dmg the rest of the buffing skills are really only good if you going full nature spec. Any way most melee skills have long cast animation take aimed strike the at will thats long animation most melee skills have lackluster effects also like steel breeze its dmg is kinda HAMSTER and its only give more stamina. Hindering is good CC but CW do CC better and grasping roots still kinda not all that In PvE imho
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Good players switch all the time for buffs etc, but it takes half a second to do, so unless you are watching them like a hawk you will not likely see it.
This is your first HR right?
Several of the people reaponding here have a lot of experience with the class, they've been playing since the open playtest and have played multiple HRs and multiple builds all the way to 60 with end game experience as well. Instead of trying to correct them maybe you should "listen" to them?
Also keep in mind that some people are not good at playing the class, I've seen plenty of bad choices from people with HRs along the way, so many things they don't get right that makes them ineffective. Choosing to use a power that hits 2x as hard as the alteranate is not necassarily one of them.
Obsidian Oath - Warlock
A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
well split strike has some potential situationally... as when u have more than 5 mobs grouped up by a sing as it doesnt have a target cap and fires off faster. It does do arund half the damage of its ranged counterpart but i think it should come out about even dps wise in those conditions... but then its coz i use aspect of the serpent so its handy to restack the archery buff.
rapid strike i have my doubts though... i think they are pretty even dps wise coz its damage per hit isnt that much less while the speed increase is more noticeable.... could be also because the way im feated and using serpent, so i really am not sure on this.... but i seem to have pretty good singletarget damage with it.
I do like hindering strike alot though, short animation and once u have 5 targets dps is about the same as fox shift as it hits as hard as any one hit in fox. plus it apllies strong roots which imho are pretty good combined with a cw as he will bunch up everything with a sing and u will keep it bunched for a little longer to make everyones dps better even after a follow up shard. Also has pretty good synergy with rain of arrows.
but yeah basically the only worthwhile melee dmg encounters are hindering and fox coz they have better damage and give some utility like the roots or the sick ap and speed boost.
Oh god my eyes hurt, it's like the text is almost 3D :eek:
First off unless you're hybrid or combat build your melee damage will never equal your ranged damage. If it does then you needed a new bow like 10 levels back and should be looking at upgrading pronto. I'm hybrid running a unicorn-equivalent bow with T2 blades and I still manage to do 2x the damage from my blades by staying in ranged.
Second you should only be swapping into melee during party runs for the buffs. Your idea skill setup doesn't give you any decent melee damage so going into melee for any extended time is worthless and you just become a hazard for the party. The exception is boss fights where the tank is busy and you're forced into the tank slot; then you should be running your solo melee skills (assuming you're hybrid or combat). If you're running solo then the skills that maximize your ranged dps become mostly worthless and you should swap in better skills with more utility.
Third if you want to maximize your ranger hybrid is really the way to go. It gives you the best of both melee and ranged, allowing you to pick and choose the situations where you use them to most effectiveness. Give it a shot, if you're half as impressed as I was initially you'll never go back
I could train my cat to play ranged Hunter and get top dps just my cuddling up against the mouse: "split split split split aimed split split split". Split Shot is completely broken. During this CTA event I outdamaged every class, except for an occasional CW, with only thorn ward and split spam the entire time. However, split-spamming ranged-only HRs get destroyed in pvp so I feel like there's justice in that. If Split Shot didn't exist, melee would probably be equal or even better than ranged.
Melee is general for this game, in PVE, is going to be subpar by default. It doesn't matter if a TR does beastly single target dps when I can just stand back and split, with just a half-second charge beating the output of Duelist Flurry (edit to clarify: I'm speaking of fights where there are a handful of mobs, which is almost every fight. and not saying Split outdamages DF on a single mob) and that doesn't even account for being able to do it about six times while they only complete one DF. GWF is bad as well because, even when mobs are held close together 24/7, they aren't going to compete against a HR or CW for AoE dps.
There's also alot of min-maxing encouraged in this game as opposed to fun; if you want this class only be this race, unless the spec is top dps it doesn't matter if it's fun you just need top damage. Having the melee option for Ranger may not be the best melee class in pve but it sure keeps the class from getting stale. Melee has its uses and switching stances, even briefly, has benefits to the party but unfortunately most people want the utility to be left to Clerics and Gaurdians so they'll only play in way that'll increase their personal dps.
If you think melee HR is rare, play more pvp and you will see that people do enjoy playing it. Heck, in pve you will see melee rangers but often they are not the ones who feel inclined to care about saying "top/first" when the dungeon is done. Fun to them does not necessarily mean getting first. Melee HR absolutely feels awesome and even helpful to the party, and that's reason enough to use it.
So with Marauder's I'm almost always getting a 20% damage bonus. This takes into account that I try to only play on teams with a GWF or GF, and a CW.
Oh, and Split the Sky is f'ing amazing. Doesn't aggro add's, and when the melee types rush into combat just wait for the flashes before you start your burn. The slow can be a life saver, and the melee side damage buff is great to throw on just before a Hawk Shot. (Or whatever your ranged attack encounter of choice is.)
I've run most of the T2's with Split the Sky, Marauders, and Hawk Shot as encounters. Seismic Shot for it's damage and AoE knockback for tossing add's into pits, and Disruptive Shot for CC added ST damage. At-Will's aren't even a choice: Aimed Shot and Split Shot. If you're running anything else you're either melee or underperforming IMO.
I'll be honest, I don't think I could play the class at all without Marauders. It deaggro's, throws you a mile away (or closes to melee instantly), and lets you really use those five points in Sniper. With the Archery Cap it almost always crits, and a follow up bleed from Aimed Shot's melee attack, then switch back to ranged and Marauder away straight into another aimed shot.