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A perfectly elegant and simple solution to all our PvP PUG problems

almireldignoralmireldignor Member Posts: 1 Arc User
edited January 2014 in PvE Discussion
Nobody likes it when you join the PvP queue during the event, only to have half your team leave because "herp they had 2 gwf's derp". Everybody hates having a closely tied match, then someone decides the win isn't easy enough and bails, resulting in epic failure.

The solution I propose is simple: add another queue for pvp that has an entry fee in Astral Diamonds. I know what you're thinking, But if it costs money to PvP no one will do it!!! D: . And you may be right. My suggestion is to charge, say, 50k AD to enter the queue, to be deducted once the match begins. At the end of the match, the AD is refunded for a small loss (perhaps 5%) if you lose, and returned for profit if you win. That way, anyone who joins the new queue with both a) have enough AD's to spare so that they have some basic idea of what they're doing, and b) have financial interest in staying until the end of the match and fighting their hardest to win. Keeping the originial queue available to people who can't afford the entry fee, want to afk matches during the event, or just make a premade and beat the stuffing out of collapsing teams of afk'ers and quitters.


TL;DR: PvP costs AD so people don't join and leave because it's too hard.
Post edited by Unknown User on
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    godlysoul1godlysoul1 Member Posts: 293 Bounty Hunter
    edited January 2014
    Only full rank 9-10 premades with high artifacts/boons would do it.

    I'm not going to solo que when I don't have a guild and am only using 2 artifacts, both barely purple with full rank 7s, greater weapon enchant, lesser armor enchant, despite the fact that a gwf with this will still cause everyone in PUGs to leave. I wouldn't even que with premade that was full rank 7 with somewhat decent artifacts because they will get beat out by all the rich truely end-game premades running those higher artifacts/enchants. Not to mention all the people that would run troll based premades of things such as 5 TRs or all TR/GWF just to farm AD.

    It'd be nice only if it has some sort of matchmaking applied, but a matchmaking system applied to the normal que would solve the problem just as easy without the need for 2 separate ones...
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    brodyhoule1brodyhoule1 Member Posts: 23 Arc User
    edited January 2014
    godlysoul1 wrote: »
    Only full rank 9-10 premades with high artifacts/boons would do it.

    I'm not going to solo que when I don't have a guild and am only using 2 artifacts, both barely purple with full rank 7s, greater weapon enchant, lesser armor enchant, despite the fact that a gwf with this will still cause everyone in PUGs to leave. I wouldn't even que with premade that was full rank 7 with somewhat decent artifacts because they will get beat out by all the rich truely end-game premades running those higher artifacts/enchants. Not to mention all the people that would run troll based premades of things such as 5 TRs or all TR/GWF just to farm AD.

    It'd be nice only if it has some sort of matchmaking applied, but a matchmaking system applied to the normal que would solve the problem just as easy without the need for 2 separate ones...

    That could be a fairly simple fix, as you could just make it so people cannot enter at parties, so premades wouldn't happen nearly as much. Or it could be made so you can't join if you have more than two of any one class.
    My name is Tank, and I will not die.
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    almireldignoralmireldignor Member Posts: 1 Arc User
    edited January 2014
    That could be a fairly simple fix, as you could just make it so people cannot enter at parties, so premades wouldn't happen nearly as much. Or it could be made so you can't join if you have more than two of any one class.

    There could also be an extra queue that only allows full group to enter, and has greater rewards. It's always bothered me that theres only one queue for pvp, I never understood why they never added a "tournament" or "ranked" version or something like that.
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    trapublicantrapublican Member Posts: 206 Bounty Hunter
    edited January 2014
    That way, anyone who joins the new queue with both a) have enough AD's to spare so that they have some basic idea of what they're doing,

    Some of the most terrible people I've seen are the ones who have the most ingame wealth.


    They'd do better to just balance GWFs, fix ranger roots and various other bugs then work on a system to help make it more equal for teams so it comes down to who is more skilled not who has the most gear.
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    melodywhrmelodywhr Member Posts: 4,220 Arc User
    edited January 2014
    i think the upcoming pvp changes are going to take care of a lot of these complaints about the current state of pvp. coming sooner than later! O_O
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    esteenaesteena Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 1
    edited January 2014
    melodywhr wrote: »
    i think the upcoming pvp changes are going to take care of a lot of these complaints about the current state of pvp. coming sooner than later! O_O

    I suppose you don't even PvP.

    Because the current changes in preview shard, are limiting builds and gear choices and making some classes entirely useless.
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    melodywhrmelodywhr Member Posts: 4,220 Arc User
    edited January 2014
    esteena wrote: »
    I suppose you don't even PvP.

    Because the current changes in preview shard, are limiting builds and gear choices and making some classes entirely useless.

    i suppose i have more faith in the end-result than some. but what is currently on the preview shard is not all that's coming.
    Hey guys, lots of feedback that is operating on a series of assumptions, so I wanted to step in and clarify some of the underlying logic behind these changes.


    First and foremost, Tenacity is *not* designed to make lower geared players feel more competitive with high end kitted out players. While it will just by its very existence adjust how long it takes for them to get beaten, they should still get beaten every time. Tenacity however is designed to address a problem that we identified with PVP among players of similar skill. This problem is that PVP was often very binary. You either were fighting someone who would effectively vaporize you before you could respond if you didn't see them coming, or the person who managed to fire first won a vast majority of those encounters (*cough*Han Solo*cough*). While this isn't necessarily a bad thing, we wanted to introduce more chances for counterplay by giving players a longer time to live when under fire so they could at least get an opportunity to try and swing the fight back in their favor or request reinforcements. We are carefully monitoring how tanky this makes people however as we do not want the game to feel stagnant at higher levels. It's a very careful balancing act and that is why we have the stat on the Test Shard right now, and Devs are regularly jumping in to play it.

    Second, we have heard what people are saying about wanting more gear options, so we are in the process of making more PVP pieces of gear that provide a wider array of stat allocations for players to use. These new sets will exist at T1, T2, and beyond. However they will all use the existing PVP set bonuses.

    Third, about how many things Tenacity effects. This is actually not our first iteration of this stat. During its initial incarnation it interacted with the math in a very different way, and was originally was only base additional resistance. Player critical hits were still a rampant problem however and Crit became the go to offensive stat in all cases, so we needed to reign that in. When we added the Critical Hit resistance we fundamentally shifted the stat values in PVP unintentionally. Therefore Armor Penetration became the mathematically "right" stat to stack offensively, and we needed to curb both of those stats at roughly the same value, so we added Armor Penetration Depression to the stat. However with the changes to how Tenacity interacts with Defense and AC in the math, this may no longer be required, so we are monitoring it carefully to see if we can scale it back, or remove Armor Penetration Depression all together.

    Finally, about matchmaking. We have people who have been working on an improved matchmaking system for a while now and we are hoping to get it out to you guys as soon as we can, but that is beyond the scope of this thread. However the context of it is important in that as I stated above, Tenacity is aimed at teams of roughly equal skill and gear, and was not intended to make low end players competitive with high end players.


    Hopefully that clears up a lot of the questions!

    Chris "Gentleman_Crush" Meyer

    i actually do pvp, but it's not all i do.

    side mod note: just a reminder that "i quit" posts and threats are not allowed. that includes any references of the player base thinning because of changes to come. thanks.
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    devilshark5devilshark5 Member Posts: 26 Arc User
    edited January 2014
    What about GS "weight classes" for PvP? Conceptually doesn't seem to be too difficult: once a player enters a queue for PvP, their equipment/enchants are unchangeable. Players of like GS are grouped together. You may get a larger group of players to PvP if they weren't faced with elite players wiping them out.
    California Sunshine
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    snottysnotty Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 476 Arc User
    edited January 2014
    Nobody likes it when you join the PvP queue during the event, only to have half your team leave because "herp they had 2 gwf's derp". Everybody hates having a closely tied match, then someone decides the win isn't easy enough and bails, resulting in epic failure.

    The solution I propose is simple: add another queue for pvp that has an entry fee in Astral Diamonds. I know what you're thinking, But if it costs money to PvP no one will do it!!! D: . And you may be right. My suggestion is to charge, say, 50k AD to enter the queue, to be deducted once the match begins. At the end of the match, the AD is refunded for a small loss (perhaps 5%) if you lose, and returned for profit if you win. That way, anyone who joins the new queue with both a) have enough AD's to spare so that they have some basic idea of what they're doing, and b) have financial interest in staying until the end of the match and fighting their hardest to win. Keeping the originial queue available to people who can't afford the entry fee, want to afk matches during the event, or just make a premade and beat the stuffing out of collapsing teams of afk'ers and quitters.


    TL;DR: PvP costs AD so people don't join and leave because it's too hard.

    I like where you're going with this but I think the fee is too high. Even if you do the rinx daily PvP (4k AD) and the lords daily PvP (8k AD) together you're only getting 12k AD and you want to charge more then 4 times that amount just to PvP? Maybe 5-10k is a good start but make it so as long as you complete the match you get it all back. This way for those unfortunate enough to accidently disconnect or otherwise are forced to leave the match the loss isn't so great but enough that it would make most quitters think twice before leaving and looking for another match. Plus if you're still unfortunate enough to have a quitter on your team, you don't get screwed by them leaving.

    But as others have said many many many many times already, what we need is a better match making system so fresh 60 pugs aren't thrown into a match against well geared, well skilled premades.
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    remfdtremfdt Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 83 Arc User
    edited January 2014
    Make queuing cost a reasonable (1-2k) amount of *rough* AD, and make it a full-refund-on completion win or lose, and you might have something. Making it a net-plus for the "winners" is a bad idea, for a bunch of pretty obvious reasons. But using AD ante as a pure disincentive to bailing isn't unreasonable at all...
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    cwforumpostercwforumposter Banned Users Posts: 35 Arc User
    edited January 2014
    melodywhr wrote: »
    i suppose i have more faith in the end-result than some. but what is currently on the preview shard is not all that's coming.



    i actually do pvp, but it's not all i do.

    side mod note: just a reminder that "i quit" posts and threats are not allowed. that includes any references of the player base thinning because of changes to come. thanks.

    Unless what is still coming is a MASSIVE damage buff I think that it's going to be worse.

    Have you went and played a premade on the preview yet? Nobody dies. At all.
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    melodywhrmelodywhr Member Posts: 4,220 Arc User
    edited January 2014
    Unless what is still coming is a MASSIVE damage buff I think that it's going to be worse.

    Have you went and played a premade on the preview yet? Nobody dies. At all.

    i played yesterday with a few recognized names from the forums. the devs were supposed to be on and they may have been but i couldn't prove that. that's not to say that the current version of tenacity is what we'll get on the live servers, but it's a start and the whole reason why it's on the preview server. and it's not the entire pvp package either. so... take from it what you will.
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    xerkxessxerkxess Member Posts: 1 Arc User
    edited January 2014
    Bad idea imho. Maybe just charge them AD if they leave.Or have Gear Score brackets for players from 10k to 12k. 12k to 14k. and so on
    But u would need the game to lock the gear u Q with so u cant change it after start of match.This way 10k new 60s dont have to play 16k pros.
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    xellizxelliz Member Posts: 955 Arc User
    edited January 2014
    I'm not sure I follow what is being said here.
    Second, we have heard what people are saying about wanting more gear options, so we are in the process of making more PVP pieces of gear that provide a wider array of stat allocations for players to use. These new sets will exist at T1, T2, and beyond. However they will all use the existing PVP set bonuses.

    Does this mean new sets of PVP gear will have the same set bonuses as existing gear?
    Foundry - Fight Club? (nw-dluqbofu7)
    - JailBreak (in development)
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    pers3phonepers3phone Banned Users, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited January 2014
    Unless what is still coming is a MASSIVE damage buff I think that it's going to be worse.

    Have you went and played a premade on the preview yet? Nobody dies. At all.

    Yesterday we played a few matches, some with known top pvpers with full R10s and so on. They died. In some matches however, some GWFs and/or DCs were deathless. This is not saying much, since it also happens on live many times.

    If we would have played full coordinated PMvsPM, people would have died even more, since you can call focus fire on voicechat.
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    synozeersynozeer Member Posts: 185 Arc User
    edited January 2014
    xelliz wrote: »
    I'm not sure I follow what is being said here.


    Does this mean new sets of PVP gear will have the same set bonuses as existing gear?

    I think what they mean is that the new PvP sets will have different stats, but still have the same bonuses as the current PvP sets (such as +guard meter and +10% movement for GF GG set, regen w/deflect and +15% movement for HR GG set, etc).
    Guild: Chocolate Stand | Main: Hzarn (GF)/Danteel (HR) | Watch PvP Videos
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    esteenaesteena Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 1
    edited January 2014
    melodywhr wrote: »
    i suppose i have more faith in the end-result than some. but what is currently on the preview shard is not all that's coming.

    Well, you don't know what is coming. You don't know if it will hurt the game or not as you don't have enough PvP experience.

    Let's be realistic, you are just a player like all of us and you don't have any exclusive access to any information.

    If you really want to help this game, then try to convince the developers to actually run some tests with the "Top PvP players" in this server. They know more than me and you and can actually come out with better outcome to the whole community.


    These players ONLY play this game in PvP, they know things and went through alot of theory crafting you &me don't know.
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    hiddenfatehiddenfate Banned Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited January 2014
    I actually like this idea "because" most of the serious die-hard premades will do it. It creates a separation between the ones doing it for fun and the ones who are doing it because they're domination addicts (which is probably fun in its own way but I just don't get the appeal :P)
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    pers3phonepers3phone Banned Users, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited January 2014
    esteena wrote: »
    If you really want to help this game, then try to convince the developers to actually run some tests with the "Top PvP players" in this server.

    They already did.
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    evrisaevrisa Member Posts: 40 Arc User
    edited January 2014
    I am new to the game, so call me a newb or w/e, but as a person who has competitively pvp'd in other games the thing that is hindering me in this game is primarily only having one spec. You clearly need a pvp spec in this game but that spec usually isn't the optimal one for pve. So, you have pve'ers in pvp for ADs, gear, etc but not properly spec'd for pvp. If the game would allow ppl to carry 2 specs without the cost of respecc'ing as it does now, you may see more competitive pugs. Either that or have 2 queues - premades and pugs. Balancing out the classes in pvp would be nice as well. So far it seems that its just 1-shots from GWFs and stunlocking, no skill needed, but I have only pugged and thats been my experience. In fact, as much as I love pvp, I will not continue to play it in this game unless I can have both a pve spec and a pvp spec. The frustration isnt worth it. And that, for me, is a minus in the long-term enjoyment of this game. Just my 2 cents ... peace.
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    pers3phonepers3phone Banned Users, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited January 2014
    evrisa wrote: »
    I am new to the game, so call me a newb or w/e, but as a person who has competitively pvp'd in other games the thing that is hindering me in this game is primarily only having one spec. You clearly need a pvp spec in this game but that spec usually isn't the optimal one for pve. So, you have pve'ers in pvp for ADs, gear, etc but not properly spec'd for pvp. If the game would allow ppl to carry 2 specs without the cost of respecc'ing as it does now, you may see more competitive pugs. Either that or have 2 queues - premades and pugs. Balancing out the classes in pvp would be nice as well. So far it seems that its just 1-shots from GWFs and stunlocking, no skill needed, but I have only pugged and thats been my experience. In fact, as much as I love pvp, I will not continue to play it in this game unless I can have both a pve spec and a pvp spec. The frustration isnt worth it. And that, for me, is a minus in the long-term enjoyment of this game. Just my 2 cents ... peace.

    It's true, we need Dual Spec, offering exactly what full respec offers: stat rolls, feats, boons, powers. We should be able to switch outside of combat.

    There is absolutely no reason why we should not be able to optimally PvP and PvE on the same char. It is a staple feature in many MMOs.
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    trapublicantrapublican Member Posts: 206 Bounty Hunter
    edited January 2014
    evrisa wrote: »
    I am new to the game, so call me a newb or w/e, but as a person who has competitively pvp'd in other games the thing that is hindering me in this game is primarily only having one spec. You clearly need a pvp spec in this game but that spec usually isn't the optimal one for pve. So, you have pve'ers in pvp for ADs, gear, etc but not properly spec'd for pvp. If the game would allow ppl to carry 2 specs without the cost of respecc'ing as it does now, you may see more competitive pugs. Either that or have 2 queues - premades and pugs. Balancing out the classes in pvp would be nice as well. So far it seems that its just 1-shots from GWFs and stunlocking, no skill needed, but I have only pugged and thats been my experience. In fact, as much as I love pvp, I will not continue to play it in this game unless I can have both a pve spec and a pvp spec. The frustration isnt worth it. And that, for me, is a minus in the long-term enjoyment of this game. Just my 2 cents ... peace.

    It's really not that difficult to build and spec a char that can do well in both so I don't see why people keep making that claim.
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    forsaleonlyforsaleonly Member Posts: 3 Arc User
    edited January 2014
    I think the separate queue with AD would be a good idea, but they may have to limit how many times per day you can queue to keep things from getting out of hand.

    I don't know if this has already been suggested or not, but I think with or without the AD idea.........you need to have a penalty for leaving a match early. Something as simple as you cannot queue again for 5-15 minutes or you lose glory.

    You could also take the AD queue idea from the OP and use glory instead of AD.

    Either way there needs to be a reason for someone not to leave early. Currently, there is none.
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    evrisaevrisa Member Posts: 40 Arc User
    edited January 2014
    @ Pers3phone - AFAIK, if you want to min/max you need dual specs. I know I do. I do not want to do an "OK" job in either pvp or pve. I want to do the best that I am able to do in both. It is a shame that they don't offer dual specs. IMO, pvp makes you a better player in pve. Pvp teaches you things like awareness, quickness, etc, all of which is useful in pve content. The best way to learn to heal, for example, is to heal in pvp. Its totally non-scripted.

    @forsaleonly - I totally agree with the penalty for leaving early. Nothing is more frustrating than having ppl leave a match early because it doesnt look like a win. Similarly,for ppl who AFK during a match. They need to be booted out and not benefit from whatever gain they may receive.

    Another thought is to make pvp gear totally useless in pve content. As a newb, I am not yet sure about all the gear but from what I have seen, the pvp gear is a decent start for a new char. I could be wrong. But if pvp gear could not be used in pve content (assuming the devs never allow dual specs) than that would take out some of the pver's who are frustrating the pure pvpers. Just a thought ...

    The game is new and still has growing to do. Hopefully it will do so. Pvp in mmo's always has been the "red-headed step-child" and its nearly impossible to make all pver's and pvper's happy, so we shall see how the game grows. - peace.
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    trapublicantrapublican Member Posts: 206 Bounty Hunter
    edited January 2014

    I don't know if this has already been suggested or not, but I think with or without the AD idea.........you need to have a penalty for leaving a match early. Something as simple as you cannot queue again for 5-15 minutes or you lose glory.

    Either way there needs to be a reason for someone not to leave early. Currently, there is none.

    That would just cause people to afk in the spawn. If I get paired with people who rush 1 at the start instead of 2 I quit because they're obviously bad, if my team isn't smart enough to fight on the pad (and knock members of the other team off of it) I quit because yet again they're obviously bad, if people on my team have no clue how to use their class I quit because guess what? they're bad.

    I don't care about winning or losing I just want to play with competent people, I don't see why people who have no clue how to pvp even bother joining it.
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    evrisaevrisa Member Posts: 40 Arc User
    edited January 2014
    I don't care about winning or losing I just want to play with competent people, I don't see why people who have no clue how to pvp even bother joining it.

    Sometimes you have "bad" players who are just soloing with a team, but other times you have ppl who do not know, who need to be instructed. Not all are incompetent, some are just unaware. One of the worst tools in pvp is the score at the end, the one that shows how much dps you did. Some ppl just want to see their names in lights and not play as a team. That's usually in pugs, unfortunately. But should ppl not be able to play pvp if they are not part of a pre-made, part of the "leet" group? That doesn't seem fair either.
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    trapublicantrapublican Member Posts: 206 Bounty Hunter
    edited January 2014
    evrisa wrote: »
    But should ppl not be able to play pvp if they are not part of a pre-made, part of the "leet" group? That doesn't seem fair either.

    I never said anything that could be construed along those lines. If someone has no clue how to pvp and doesn't even bother to listen to others who are trying to help them (I tell people to rush 2 before the gate even drops yet I see the fools still rush to 1) then they shouldn't queue up for pvp since they're ruining the experience for others.

    For instance, I don't like pve at all I never have and never will so I've never done CN, MC or VT and if I was to join a group to do them do you think they'd be happy if I just ran around doing my own thing and ignoring all advice they were giving?
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    evrisaevrisa Member Posts: 40 Arc User
    edited January 2014
    I never said anything that could be construed along those lines. If someone has no clue how to pvp and doesn't even bother to listen to others who are trying to help them (I tell people to rush 2 before the gate even drops yet I see the fools still rush to 1) then they shouldn't queue up for pvp since they're ruining the experience for others.

    For instance, I don't like pve at all I never have and never will so I've never done CN, MC or VT and if I was to join a group to do them do you think they'd be happy if I just ran around doing my own thing and ignoring all advice they were giving?

    My apologies, I didnt mean to come off that way and the "leet comment was addressed to those that think that way. I did not mean it for you. Some ppl feel that if you are not part of a pre-made then you should not queue for pvp. Again, sorry for any misunderstanding.
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    pers3phonepers3phone Banned Users, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited January 2014
    It's really not that difficult to build and spec a char that can do well in both so I don't see why people keep making that claim.

    Nah, you're pretty wrong, I've already enumerated in another topic how a CW cannot be effective in both aspects of the game. You have to take useless feats and so on, roll with inadequate stat rolls, miss powers you need.

    Dual Spec is needed.
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    trapublicantrapublican Member Posts: 206 Bounty Hunter
    edited January 2014
    evrisa wrote: »
    My apologies, I didnt mean to come off that way and the "leet comment was addressed to those that think that way. I did not mean it for you. Some ppl feel that if you are not part of a pre-made then you should not queue for pvp. Again, sorry for any misunderstanding.

    No worries. I agree with you fully on those who are snobbish about pvp and feel that it should be premade only, pvp should be for everyone and they should implement a system to sort players out better based on their actual skill to make it more fun for those who participate in it.
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