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PvP Jumping needs addressed
astariadodf
Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 0 Arc User
Everyone knows how sad targeting is (lashing blades miss, first attack animation lands but does not register, daily goes off but does not register and AP may or may not go.... the list is endless) and there are those that exploit this broken mechanic.
These people (initially started with rogues) use software of mechanical macros to jump continuously in PvP so that even if you are targeted and lined up, the system will likely not register due to poor targeting.
Beyond the obvious (fix targeting issues) put jumps on the stamina meter. Really, this is a no brainer, should have been done in creation. Jumping is not like running or walking. And yes, there are many attacks on several toons that can be done WHILE jumping.
BTW - what gives? Targeting problems are obvious, continuous, and constant. I see it every day when I do my boon maintenance run on all 4 toons. Is it that hard to put out quality?
These people (initially started with rogues) use software of mechanical macros to jump continuously in PvP so that even if you are targeted and lined up, the system will likely not register due to poor targeting.
Beyond the obvious (fix targeting issues) put jumps on the stamina meter. Really, this is a no brainer, should have been done in creation. Jumping is not like running or walking. And yes, there are many attacks on several toons that can be done WHILE jumping.
BTW - what gives? Targeting problems are obvious, continuous, and constant. I see it every day when I do my boon maintenance run on all 4 toons. Is it that hard to put out quality?
Post edited by astariadodf on
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So it is confusing that you say "even if you are targeted and lined up" because there is no such thing as 'lined up', either the target is selected or it isn't.
I have seen my ice knife 'bounce back' in pve and pvp in the way you say, but like valdred 123, I have never seen anyone using a jumping exploit. (But I also don't know what valdred123 is talking about either..what is a 'stamina toggle'?)
I have heard that the explanation for this is 'lag', but I don't really know why lag would make something 'uncast' completely...
What I meant: running (GF/GWF), the CW teleport etc. 'Stamina toggle' was my attempt at being generic - since each class has there own version of using stamina. Don't know what else to label it as.
I edited that line fyi.
"These people" are delusional. This is not a First Person Shooter. There is no "targeted and lined up."
The only thing they are accomplishing is looking foolish.
Encounter Matrix | Advanced Foundry Topics
I may contribute to this myth though. If I'm not actively killing something I have a tendancy to bounce and jump around like a chipmunk on speed.
let's burn!!
There were threads around here about this topic and is a known fact that certain advantages are to be taken from jumping. How should i call you?!
I say leave it alone.
That's me too when I PvP. I just find jumping while moving more entertaining than just holding down a button; its something to entertain me.
The professional PVP players who bunny-hop are not doing it for fun.
They likely do so because they believe it provides them with an unfair advantage over thier opponents.
The jumping/bunny-hopping mechanism tries to confuse the game server as to the hopper's precise location on the game map, causing it to record his opponent's action as a miss when it should have been a hit.
Experts describe it as Quote ".. When players quickly spam the jump button, it throws off the predictive reasoning in the game, resulting in...(something called a)... "de-sync". This manifests itself on your screen as ... your abilities completely missing their target despite the fact that you would swear ...that you were dead center on the target."
And also quote "...(the)... real problem is that players are abusing the mechanic to exploit server code in a way that makes them almost impossible to hit..." (I do not know if this also applies to Neverwinter)
Additionally quote "...Bouncing/hopping is a tactic to exploit the nature of a wide area network, synchronization driven, latency plagued game. It is not a 'standard' combat tactic, it is not a legitimate defense..."
Players who bunny-hop are unlikely to be doing so just for the fun of it. Those who demand that it remain untouched are likely concerned about losing the advantage they believe they have over those who do not, or chose to not use this anomaly. PVP advisers in some guilds actively encourage their members to use the jumping, bunny-hopping gimmick in their game play.
Hopefully, today's developers are aware of this cheezy mechanic and codes apprpriately.
The above quotes are not mine. They have been modified for brevity and reduction of complexity.
Even if there is an exploit related to jumping how is it an unfair advantage? Can't everyone no matter what race or class jump?
This stuff is true in OTHER games, but not in Neverwinter. Neverwinter targetting does not work like an FPS. The crosshair does not need to be over the target to hit it; all the crosshair does is select the target. Once a target is selected, you can face any way you want and still be attacking the same target.
Thus, bunnyhopping is pointless in neverwinter.
Your assurance carries no weight, and is therefore useless, and without merit.
The experts have said "...Bouncing/hopping is a tactic to exploit the nature of a wide area network, synchronization driven, latency plagued game. It is not a 'standard' combat tactic, it is not a legitimate defense..."
".. When players quickly spam the jump button, it throws off the predictive reasoning in the game, resulting in...(something called a)... "de-sync". This manifests itself on your screen as ... your abilities completely missing their target despite the fact that you would swear ...that you were dead center on the target."
"...(the)... real problem is that players are abusing the mechanic to exploit server code in a way that makes them almost impossible to hit..."
In deciding between your assurance and the opinion of experts, I come down on the side of the experts.
In competitions, there are referees. They oversee the match, and tries to ensure that the competitors follow the rules. They assign and register points for and against in order to eventually determine the winner.
In PVP matches the referee is the server computer. When one introduces and uses a mechanism aimed at confusing or misleading the server computer, then one is essentially doing so to the referee of the match, thereby winning points by cheating.
It is an unfair advantage when one competitor is trying to mislead the game referee, while his opponent plays fair.
I won't believe it until a dev confirms.
The jumping/ bunnyhopping behavior causes anomalous adverse effects in both MMORP and FPS games.
In games where you needed to manually select the target, then it could become an annoyance to select, but then again, you could usually tab key to select closest.
I do recall one game having a speed loss for jumping (can't remember which game), but that would be a pretty weird thing to leverage.
The only purpose I can presume one gains with jumping is frustrating the other player, therefore, an annoying tactic of psychological warfare.
/bind mousewheel ++hardtargetlock.
Problem solved. Enjoy.
Everything you need to know about CW:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?780981-Chem-s-CW-Compendium-Everything-you-need-to-know
In the case of the perma-stealth rogue, it's simply working as intended (no technical exploits going on).... so if you come across one, you should ignore them.. let em camp a node and 5v4 the other team for the other 2 nodes. Same goes for other node minded tanks that want to /flex their survivability skills. If you're a geared tanky type and already have the node captured, just run around the node and laugh (and take potshots here and there).... perma-rogue damage usually sucks.
I don't think the issues you stated are an inherent problem with mmo's. More, it sounds like this is a perceived issue that is only derived from opinion and hearsay - No offense.
Anyway... how is leveling valdred?
tenchars
To start, thank you for your well-thought out response.
With that i mind, the following points should be brought to your attention.
For confirming to forum readers that bunny hopping provides an advantage, many thanks. Your conclusion that this advantage is not unfair can be debated by others.
Some of the questions you asked can only be answered by the actual creators of the game.
Since footnotes are not a requirement for forum posting, the asking for such is unreasonable, and will therefore be ignored.
If you are as knowledgable in this area of computer/network/latency/de-sync etc that your post appears to suggest that you are, then you should state outright whether the points raised in the quoted statements of the experts are correct or false. Asking for their names, and or questioning whether the specifics of thier commentaries would be affected by other game features (spamming movement commands) is a pointless exercise in futility. Suggesting other reasons for thier conclusions indicates that you are in agreement with thier conclusions, but at the same time you are looking for other causes for the conclusions they have come to, and that you are in agreement with.
Asking the developers to look elsewhere for a solution, when the real solution is already in front of them does not seem particularly helpful, and falls in the category of misdirection rather than assisting.
Questions about the Neverwinter server code are, obviously, unanswerable.
Your commentary on the using of powers while bunny hopping confirms that there is an advantage to be had in bunny hopping; thereby providing evidence that bunny hopping confers an advantage to the bunny hopper.
I have stated no theories, but rather have quoted those experts in that field who are knowledgable in that area.
Your understanding is off; the quotes are timely, and involve present day MMORPG's. The level and amount of hilarity that you and your friends enjoy does not change the underlying point being discussed:
Bunny hoppers believe they are enjoying a distinct, and clear advantage over other players. That is why they bunny hop. Experts in the field agree that this is the case, but also note strongly that the advantage is unfair, and achieved via ignoble, and game server confounding means.
In a game aimed for the enjoyment of all, how is it fair if some players achieve an unfair advantage by using ignoble means and methods? How does it benefit the game if this peculiar form of server manipulative gameplay continues unchecked, and unchallenged? How likely is it that game longevity will ensue under these conditions?
Nah man you're totally wrong. Your nice English is not making your posts more informed or better in any way.
Bunnyhopping is bunnyhopping. If we are to talk advantages, OK, let's talk those cause this is irritating already:
- CW freeze ray jumpcast
- TR flurry (I think, not sure)
This is ALL that jumping (NOT bunnyhopping) offers.
Also there's jumping around the pillars.
Now, what it is that we can do and you cannot?!?
If you don't like to jump, fine. Just leave alone those that like to. Basically your claims are ridiculous in the eyes of anybody that knows PvP in Neverwinter and you just look like somebody that never tried it, to be honest.
Hey bro, I think I am right.
Merely claiming I am wrong does not make me wrong; especially since I have provided supporting evidence for the conclusions drawn. You, on the other hand, have provided no such, or similar, evidence to support your claim. It therefore fails, and falls, ignominously.
Bunny hopping abusation is just that; abusation. It also attempts to take advantage of pythagoras' theorem. If the developers have coded with this in mind, then no worries. If not, then another ignoble benefit is being recieved through a server manipulative mechanism.
Anyone can bunnyhop, but just because one can perform an abusing mechanic does not mean that one should. Anyone can take advantage of errors in coding or geometry or other; but it does not mean that one should.
Where's your evidence?
Evidence must be from the game, showing how bunnyhopping constitutes unfair advantage.
I can provide PvP videos with bunnyhopping PvPers that get hit just as non-jumpers if you want to.
Your reading perception is clouded by your wishful thinking. I never implied "bunny hopping", as you name it, provides an advantage. Only that jumping, provides specific advantages when used properly. Sometimes you need to jump and cast in a direction. Sometimes you need to walk left or right. Sometimes you need to stand still. All options are equal.
I asked for specifics for the so called "experts" you mention but it seems you cannot or don't want to deliver them. This probably means your references should be quickly dismissed by everyone. By the way, it is very common knowledge that experts in the field have proved bunny hoping does not provide any advantages in gameplay, anyway.
I am not an expert in networks mechanics/latency/de-sync but have some first-hand knowledge from having work experience there. Bunny hoping maybe provides a 0.000000000000000000000000001^10000000000ms de-sync, same as pressing direction buttons. I guess in that context, you are correct.
The only advantages bunny hopping confers to simple jumping, is maybe an increased APM, warming up your reflexes. If you imply jumping altogether should be altered, please understand that this is a core change so big it would change the game completely, making it into a different game (and a static, boring game, more suited to be released 15+years back). Bunny hopping is in every game today with the faintest action gameplay mechanic for obvious reasons. Also please understand that jumping/bunnyhopping is used in every aspect of Neverwinter, including PVE. Here is a random video where a player uses it to good effect.
http://www.twitch.tv/lovesyouall/c/3568983
There is nothing unfair or unethical about it. Just another weapon in everyone's arsenal, just as using a pot i.e.
Finally, to suggest that developers should spent their resources and workhours into this, with so many lingering game issues around, is silly. If it ain't broken, don't fix it.
Will agree to disagree, and let what has been previously posted speak for itself. Those who can actually act on our opinions will do so, and we may never know.
What I do know though is that bunny hopping /spam jumping is an ignoble game server manipulative mechanic. There is no pride to be had in the resorting to same, or in being proficient in such.
EDIT: Forgot to add, are you willing to bet the developers knew what they were doing in the first place, or is this mechanic an unwanted by-product of their code? The later seems pretty far-fetched to me.