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Wicked Reminder -- so much potential
kweassa
Member Posts: 2,390 Arc User
Wicked Reminder
Pros
(1) A swiping attack with a compact motion, very quick activation, very difficult to dodge even if telegraphed
(2) Default 4 second recharge, a power that almost always at hand
(3) Stacking(x5) defense debuff -- instant 3 stacks when used during stealth
Cons
(1) Damage is below average. Somewhere between 3k~5k crit damage at 10k~12k GS range
(2) Natural disadvantages of a melee attack -- need to close in and take the risk
(3) To achieve maximum stacks, use of stealth is necessary -- You are unable to use stealth advantages for other crucial powers such as Imp.Shot or Lashing Blades
Call me an oddball, but there's just something about me and so-called "gimp" builds. Whatever the occasion I simply cannot bring myself to sticking with a FotM build, or anything which hundreds of other players might consider as the "standard option". Truth be told, I just don't like the fact that my character performs the exact same core-strategies as any other. I like unique builds, I like discovering new facts and applications of something considered "gimp" or "useless".
Hence, I guess it was only a matter of time before WR caught my attention. The "standard" (...or "FotM" if you will...) rogue builds nowadays usually give you the choice of a mix of the following encounter powers which are most commonly used:
(1) Impact Shot
(2) Lashing Blades
(3) Bait and Switch
(4) ITC
...and I can say I've hardly seen anyone who uses Wicked Reminder.
Perhaps its because people feel uncomfortable going back into melee range, when most of rogue builds nowadays are centered around medium-range knife throwing from stealth. Going into melee range is certainly a risk, especially with all the GWFs running around.
But honestly, that got me thinking. In many games, ultimately the GWF tends to decide the outcome of the game. If its geared well enough, just a little support from a cleric is enough for him to go toe-to-toe against some 2~3 enemies at the same time.
The most common pattern of combat usually boils down to the more competent GWF rushing the enemy formation and going toe-to-toe against at least 2~3 enemies, and the rest of the team picking off the ranges and wizards at the rearside of the enemy formation. If you go and try to help out the rear-lines, the GWF kills your friends. If you stay and try to keep busy the GWF, then the other players kill all your controllers and damage dealers. No matter how powerful in 1-vs-1 you are, a rogue doesn't really have much a choice when your entire team is just crushed in that manner.
...
What I did was try and find a way for a rogue to fight the entire enemy team. You don't necessarily need to kill them all -- just keep them from acting as a coherent unit. A powerful 1-vs-1 rogue can do this as well, but he can only pick out one enemies at a time, and in many cases he'll be counter-attacked by all the enemies nearby your target.
So, how can a rogue do this? I found the answer in the following:
(1) Vengeance's Pursuit
(2) Smoke Bomb
(3) Wicked Reminder
Wicked Reminder became an essential part of the new "team-support" type of rogue play style I have come to develop.
Most people feel that the defense debuff of individual stacks of WR is much to weak -- 4% each. In order to get upto full 5 stacks it takes 20 seconds, which is much too long... and if you use it from stealth, then you're giving up the most damaging attacks from stealth, which adds in 25% crit severity when used from stealth.
The thing is, I've come to realize that giving up your own big attack, is actually much more beneficial to the team, as well as much more efficient for the goal of winning. Most people may never even have tested it thoroughly, so they don't really have much idea just how beneficial those 5 stacks of defense debuff can be.
People who use the Executioner path know that their attacks hit much more heavier from stealth with the 25% crit severity increase. What they don't know, is that 5 stacks of WR allows you to hit just as heavily -- even when not in stealth.
What this means is fairly simple, and yet highly effective:
** Everyone that hits the same target, is given a free damage increase roughly worth how 25% crit severity increase will give you, which also applies to normal damage as well and not just with crits (!!!)
Do you want to drop that hunk of steel so smugly swinging that big two-handed-sword while standing surrounded by two~three lesser geared friendlies, and thinks he could still survive and kill all of them?
Give him a wicked, wicked reminder
that he's not as invincible as he thinks.
Of course, deciding to use WR, meant I was going back to melee-oriented playstyle, but not as an "assassin" this time, but rather, literally a "Trickster". Now... I can't land as many kills, nor can I fight everything 1vs1 as I used to. But now, I can disrupt entire enemy formations, and contribute decisively in taking down the enemy's most trusted bull, taming it down to a nice docile cow.
I highly recommend trying building around Wicked Reminder, if you grow tired of the same stealth-fling-fling-fling-fling pattern. It is really satisfying to see your well-timed smoke bombs and defense debuffs dropping GWFs like flies. You know you've contributed decisively when you see that GWF suddenly panic, as his HP suddenly drops at a much more faster rate than it should.
Another very satisfying bit, is that once I've reinvented my role as a rogue, it is now much more gratifying and truly feels like a team game. It is very rare to meet an experienced player who knows the worth of teamplay, and actually realizes what critical timing it took for me to place that smoke bomb and WR at that exact moment -- but sometimes, people do notice, and honestly, for me, helping my team win seems to suit me much better than doing the "my team sucks, but I can get 30 kills in game. I'm such a bad-<font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>" thing.
(ps) I find my new build much more efficient with Sly Flourish than Duelist's Flurry. When those debuffs are in place, even your normal swings hit like a truck if your targets not a tank. I actually took down the normal rogue builds in 1vs1 in some cases, despite the fact that none of my encounter choices were high-damage powers.
Pros
(1) A swiping attack with a compact motion, very quick activation, very difficult to dodge even if telegraphed
(2) Default 4 second recharge, a power that almost always at hand
(3) Stacking(x5) defense debuff -- instant 3 stacks when used during stealth
Cons
(1) Damage is below average. Somewhere between 3k~5k crit damage at 10k~12k GS range
(2) Natural disadvantages of a melee attack -- need to close in and take the risk
(3) To achieve maximum stacks, use of stealth is necessary -- You are unable to use stealth advantages for other crucial powers such as Imp.Shot or Lashing Blades
Call me an oddball, but there's just something about me and so-called "gimp" builds. Whatever the occasion I simply cannot bring myself to sticking with a FotM build, or anything which hundreds of other players might consider as the "standard option". Truth be told, I just don't like the fact that my character performs the exact same core-strategies as any other. I like unique builds, I like discovering new facts and applications of something considered "gimp" or "useless".
Hence, I guess it was only a matter of time before WR caught my attention. The "standard" (...or "FotM" if you will...) rogue builds nowadays usually give you the choice of a mix of the following encounter powers which are most commonly used:
(1) Impact Shot
(2) Lashing Blades
(3) Bait and Switch
(4) ITC
...and I can say I've hardly seen anyone who uses Wicked Reminder.
Perhaps its because people feel uncomfortable going back into melee range, when most of rogue builds nowadays are centered around medium-range knife throwing from stealth. Going into melee range is certainly a risk, especially with all the GWFs running around.
But honestly, that got me thinking. In many games, ultimately the GWF tends to decide the outcome of the game. If its geared well enough, just a little support from a cleric is enough for him to go toe-to-toe against some 2~3 enemies at the same time.
The most common pattern of combat usually boils down to the more competent GWF rushing the enemy formation and going toe-to-toe against at least 2~3 enemies, and the rest of the team picking off the ranges and wizards at the rearside of the enemy formation. If you go and try to help out the rear-lines, the GWF kills your friends. If you stay and try to keep busy the GWF, then the other players kill all your controllers and damage dealers. No matter how powerful in 1-vs-1 you are, a rogue doesn't really have much a choice when your entire team is just crushed in that manner.
...
What I did was try and find a way for a rogue to fight the entire enemy team. You don't necessarily need to kill them all -- just keep them from acting as a coherent unit. A powerful 1-vs-1 rogue can do this as well, but he can only pick out one enemies at a time, and in many cases he'll be counter-attacked by all the enemies nearby your target.
So, how can a rogue do this? I found the answer in the following:
(1) Vengeance's Pursuit
(2) Smoke Bomb
(3) Wicked Reminder
Wicked Reminder became an essential part of the new "team-support" type of rogue play style I have come to develop.
Most people feel that the defense debuff of individual stacks of WR is much to weak -- 4% each. In order to get upto full 5 stacks it takes 20 seconds, which is much too long... and if you use it from stealth, then you're giving up the most damaging attacks from stealth, which adds in 25% crit severity when used from stealth.
The thing is, I've come to realize that giving up your own big attack, is actually much more beneficial to the team, as well as much more efficient for the goal of winning. Most people may never even have tested it thoroughly, so they don't really have much idea just how beneficial those 5 stacks of defense debuff can be.
People who use the Executioner path know that their attacks hit much more heavier from stealth with the 25% crit severity increase. What they don't know, is that 5 stacks of WR allows you to hit just as heavily -- even when not in stealth.
What this means is fairly simple, and yet highly effective:
** Everyone that hits the same target, is given a free damage increase roughly worth how 25% crit severity increase will give you, which also applies to normal damage as well and not just with crits (!!!)
Do you want to drop that hunk of steel so smugly swinging that big two-handed-sword while standing surrounded by two~three lesser geared friendlies, and thinks he could still survive and kill all of them?
Give him a wicked, wicked reminder
that he's not as invincible as he thinks.Of course, deciding to use WR, meant I was going back to melee-oriented playstyle, but not as an "assassin" this time, but rather, literally a "Trickster". Now... I can't land as many kills, nor can I fight everything 1vs1 as I used to. But now, I can disrupt entire enemy formations, and contribute decisively in taking down the enemy's most trusted bull, taming it down to a nice docile cow.
I highly recommend trying building around Wicked Reminder, if you grow tired of the same stealth-fling-fling-fling-fling pattern. It is really satisfying to see your well-timed smoke bombs and defense debuffs dropping GWFs like flies. You know you've contributed decisively when you see that GWF suddenly panic, as his HP suddenly drops at a much more faster rate than it should.
Another very satisfying bit, is that once I've reinvented my role as a rogue, it is now much more gratifying and truly feels like a team game. It is very rare to meet an experienced player who knows the worth of teamplay, and actually realizes what critical timing it took for me to place that smoke bomb and WR at that exact moment -- but sometimes, people do notice, and honestly, for me, helping my team win seems to suit me much better than doing the "my team sucks, but I can get 30 kills in game. I'm such a bad-<font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>" thing.
(ps) I find my new build much more efficient with Sly Flourish than Duelist's Flurry. When those debuffs are in place, even your normal swings hit like a truck if your targets not a tank. I actually took down the normal rogue builds in 1vs1 in some cases, despite the fact that none of my encounter choices were high-damage powers.
Stop making excuses. Be a man.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Post edited by kweassa on
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This discussion has been closed.
Comments
Because if you would go for Whisper knife it means you are losing ItC, your life savior when out of stealth.
I like your analysis about it, but sadly it is too theoretical and it would come back at you when applied against good players.
I have a sent GWF. When i see a whisper knife TR is usually chain CC him with my combo and he is usually dead or ends up running away. That's because GWF got so much CC and gab closers now, so if you are going to sacrifice your CC&damage immunity then you are pretty much going to die within few seconds. Not to mention you would be ditching Shocking execution, the Tank killer.
When i see a Master infiltrator TR coming to me in a 2 vs 1 situation against my GWF, i fear 2 things:
His 20,000 Shocking execution when i'm below 50% health.
His annoying ItC that makes watch his moves step by step inorder not to waste my CC abilities.
Honestly i can't tank 2 good TRs using this tactic, as i would be pretty much dead by the time they charge their SE daily.
So i don't think your WR will be much of a use here, with the new pragaon, as you would be already dead not to mention that the stacks don't last that long. I can simply run around in circles till it is gone.
However, i get the concept of your suggestion. You want TR to be more of a "Trickster Support class" instead of a " DPS stick point holder class". Maybe with the old paragon path it can work, but you would put yourself in a disadvantage if you are going to sacrifice 2 people ( you + your team mate) to take down 1 enemy ( the GWF) since the old "standard" build can already stall a good GWF 1 vs 1 for a long time and even kill it.
I'm not supposed to scare the GWF by myself -- that's the "assassin" role, not a "trickster" role. I'm supposed:
(1) Make him think twice before thinking he can charge our team and take everyone head on
(2) Make him no match for our own GWF so instead of a prolonged hack/slash contest, I make him drop like a fly to our own GWF
(3) Disrupt enemy rear-line clerics and such -- my goal is not necessaril killing them. Killing's an option, not a requirement.
(4) Harass enemy flinger rogues and keep sticking up to him at close ranges, since stealth means squat against VP
It's not so much as about me, a single rogue on a killing-spree, but rather how a single rogue can help out the entire team win.
The important thing is the "team" concept here.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
The best way to burn me down has not been debuffing, it's been chain prones and dodging my cc, while hitting me with high burst dps while I'm not unstoppable.
I just really don't see it happening and you doing much against more than a pug of uncoordinated players.
Good points. This is a recent concept/build so it does need a long time of experimentation indeed.
I agree that against GWFs there are better options, but I'm kinda into thinking that sometimes, no matter how good a rogue is, he may always be put in a situation where he cannot outright kill anyone he pleases. I'd like to think it as a concept that sacrifices a "killer" from the team, but in compensation allows a set-up support to enable all the rest of the team to become "killers" themselves. The application of WR stacks is that much effective, especially if you are focusing targets that tend to be as tough as GWFs.
All the rest would rely on experience IMO. How do you approach someone without him noticing, despite being clearly visible? Distractions and unexpected entry, trickery, basic psychology. Confusion of the fight itself, telling signs of his clear target fixation... basically mind games and keen observation into the situation. Obviously my experiment build is not a frontline build. You don't just stealth, head up ahead and start flinging knives like the more popular ones. It's a bit more laid-back, and "watch and react" type of management required, I guess.
Anyhow, all good pointers and criticism.
I'll experiment further if its possible to accommodate for all situations. Thank you.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
You're still thinking inside the 1vs1 box -- It's not.
There are more people in a team than just the rogue. Our team may have our own GFs and GWFs. VP allows me to close in at a split second, as many times as I want because it's got no cooldown. As soon as a GWF is distracted, I am inside and WR lands. If the GWF reacts to me and decides to turn his back on our own GWF, they're welcome to do so.
I never said I was the one who is landing the "big damage", did I?
Nope, my job is to help all my team's "medium damage" against the GWF turn into a "big damage", and all the "big damage" done to him into an even bigger one. When two, equal-specced GWFs can easily duke it out for over 1 minute, I can help the fight end within 30 seconds. That's the suggested job here
Think team dynamics -- that's an interesting concept I'd say
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
It's a Scoundrel Build that is able to fix the TR's horrendous AP generation as it takes advantage of the Scoundrel Path's Action Rush (+15% chance to generate 15% of your Max AP per encounter use). WR, being a 4 second encounter, has the best chance of proc-ing this. Next will be Dazing Strike as it only has a 10 second CD, and lastly, I like slotting ITC in order to have some defenses in close range. In order to further maximize the effects of Action Rush, the build also has 20 INT which equates to 10% RSI, and 1785 Recovery which equates to 15% more RSI, giving us a total amount of 25% RSI which reduces WR's CD to 3 seconds flat. So we've got a 3 second encounter, Dazing Strike becomes an 8 second encounter, ITC becomes a 14 second encounter. All 3 encounters will have a better chance of proc-ing Action Rush thanks to their reduced CD's.
Not to mention ITC lasts 5 seconds so if we put that into consideration, ITC is technically a 9 second encounter. In order to make sure that we are able to pop those encounters a few seconds more faster, we'll be using an underrated 4 piece set, the Master Duelist. It allows us to reduce the CD of our encounters every 4th at-will strike. Sly Flourish is one of our fastest At-Wills and suits this build real well. It will be shaving off seconds on your encounters and allow you to get more AP in return. The more AP we generate, the more Dailies we can spam. It'll be possible to have a 100% uptime on Courage Breaker for PVE using this build, but for PVP it will be lower than 100%, but just seeing GWF's walking at a snail's pace and having their DPS reduced by 90%, I think that's the sort of contribution you want to give your team as you can then continue to barrage the GWF with WR, DS and Sly Flourish and use ITC in order to prevent being controlled in order to prepare to pop the next Courage Breaker.
It's a fun and fast-paced build, and presents a new way of playing a TR. However, it seems you are trying to find a way to incorporate the Whisperknife Path for PVP, and to counter GWF's at that. I'm not sure how that'll be possible but maybe you can replace ITC on the build I mentioned with VP. VP is currently broken right now as it has zero CD, but it should have some decent chances to proc Action Rush as well since it's a dual cast Encounter. Both casts should be considered as encounter activation.
So in essence, you get a WK Scoundrel build that can spam dailies. It sounds fun. If you are interested in it, I can lay down the feats and other skill choices as well. I like it when people think outside the box, and aim for fun instead of min-maxing.
yo thanks for the mention.
ill speak up about the build in question even though i respecced my tr test dummy to whisperknife to test that out XD.
still have his master duelist set in safe keep though, in case i want to go back to that
I was running around with 30% rsi (2.2k-2.3k recovery + 21 camp buffed int) and +4% natural ap gain (high elf + boon) and yeah he was a daily casting monster as i could practically keep up with cws sing casting, ofc them bunching up helped a ton with that as both main damage encounters are small aoes thus all that tight grouping makes dazing and wicked gain a lot more of ap too besides the burst ap from action rush, which is a bit rngy for my taste as charge times could vary due to it proccing or not.
The problem with the build is its lack of dps, a trs real role in a dung, it had more of a support/tank role as a debuffer i used it with a lesser plaguefire so i was consistently dropping defense to stuff to 60% ( 35% wr, 10% catpaw style, 15% plague) which made the dps difference even worse as everybody was hitting much harder XD. The other thing that made this build very usefull was facetanking bosses and elites through courage breaker, yeah u could facetank without problems various king malabogs 3 sword hits as long as the debuff was up. The debuff is shorter than i though so u cant have 100% uptime (specially vs single target) but u will always have itc for when its not.
Basically its a fun and a bit different way to play the rogue and i think that if i had invested into a stone so i could have decent arp/crit/power with the recovery ( i slacked on arp as i was debufing so much) it could have done much better dps as even though the loss of brutal backstab/critical overrun and not using duelist flurry hurts dps a lot, having arp capped and thus getting the debuffs as buffs could have made a world of difference in dps... specially with all that daily casting paired invisible infiltrator + infiltrators action (casting dailies every 15-20 secs and gaining 15% damage + combat advantage + stealth refill) with the scoundrel + 15% damage on encounters after stealth capstone feat.
It was really cool for pvp too, really annoying as with the 30 rsi + master duelist u can alternate between shadow strike and itc (soloing pve rotation too). stealth + cos then itc from stealth and sly flourish + shadow straike and roll back into stealth... risnse and repeat. pretty annoying for other people as the moments u were visible u were inmune. Required to count attacks for timings and keep attacking for the set bonus to stay in this rotation though. It sort of is a shame i never geared him up past r6s t1 gear t1.5 weapons (except malabog offhand) as with better gear(enchants) and good hp/regeneration this build could have been pretty beast survivabilty wise for pvp.
btw: since i feated improved cunning sneak u could perma with it if u slotted bns too.... some times u needed to go out of stealth through a stealthed itc but thats not a problem the thing is u need to attack for the set bonus so its not for running purposses.
edit: btw lulz at vengance pursuit with action rush... someday have to test that, shame u loose itc.
U can be a real ******* mid range where u arent seen through both at range atwills and disheartening strike actually does a ton of damage to squishies so u actually can kill alot with it without using any encounters and staying at a safe distance. Gf and gwf are different story though, u will need to df those and ur bound to get in trouble if u dont have backup as the moment u get ccd ur practically dead with so many prones and no preemptive itc to shrug em off.
So It really is played best as a mid range untargeteable ***** Xd
I really need to know though if disheartening strike bleed ticks proc and stack bilethron ticks.... could be interesting to at least test out. But having vorpal seems to be the way to go as the bigger the initial crit the bigger the followup bleed is.... So using cos till it crits to proc crit overrun and then Ds is a good way to use it.
What I'm trying to do here really, is "open up the sandbox". Like I said, I hate it when a certain build becomes too popular -- it really kills the fun in the diversity you could meet in MMOG sessions, particularly PvP where the player's ingenuity and creativity is what makes it so fun. Often, as an avid PvP enthusiast, I actually find myself having a LOT of fun trying to analyze and think up new possibilities, dig up hidden jewels which people might have not noticed.
One thing that can definately be said is this: Cryptic, has a tendency to make very misunderstood PvP formats, often leading people to question their talents in designing combat mechanics for their games. However, among all the MMOGs I've played, it was actually Cryptic's games I had most fun with. They have this tendency to reach "balance" in the most peculiar manner I've seen, and once you saw through that, suddenly their PvP mechanics made a lot of sense. It was the same with City of Heroes, its also the same with Champions Online, and I think its the same with Neverwinter as well.
There are so many possibilities -- if people can try think out of the box. Sure, some of the new suggested builds might be ultimately failures, but its the process of creation that is the most fun
In that sense, I'll see if I can upload a few videos of how my suggested build is played out. I don't have much gear yet, and most of the matches I've recorded are PuGs -- so many times the apparent "success" of the build is mainly due to gear difference. However, I think those footages may give someone an idea of how the TR could be played in different ways, especially with an underrated power that is hardly used or experimented.
It's very dynamic, and the height of my suggested build concept would be "mobility" -- Vengeance's Pursuit really increases the speed and action, makes it a lot more heart-pumping and meticulous. The addition of Wicked Reminder is for me, now almost permanent.. and the third choice of encounters are usually determined by enemy team play style. If they have a lot of squishies it could be Lashing Blades, if they have a lot of CCs then Shadow Strike, if they have a relative advantage in fighter-class numbers then it would be Smokebomb. At-will choice is definately Sly Flourish -- with WR stacks even those knife jabs hit like a truck in most cases.. and this build really leaves no room for error.
Another thing I can also boast, is that this build really rocks in catching stealthers.
It may never become as effective as the stealth/knife throwing builds, but I can guarantee its a heckuva lot of fun.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Also, what about deft strike. That, plus VS plus WR would allow you to target them, go in for the WR, roll away, come back in for the next WR, stick and move sorta deal. it'd also not allow any class that tried to hide in terrain to stay there for long. It'd also have the potential of avoiding CC, as if you can target it right, you're never where they think. I can see the weakness of damage and burst. However with the goal of being support, cripple the enemy to enable others to make them go boom, maybe even bring courage breaker for a daily to really knock someone down into dangerous debuff range. I haven't used my free respec on my TR yet, so would love your input on the idea.
Wow, it sucks that Courage Breaker doesn't last that long. I've always thought that it was 10 seconds, similar to the Power buff it gives. I've been thinking that we should be able to gain AP in roughly 10 to 15 seconds but then again the theories I make tend to shoot off track. For PVP, I've been thinking of this sort of build to perform as a Whirlwind of Blades caster, with the TR situating himself in the middle of the enemy group to spam WoB with the support of the others inside the chaos while targeting melee classes like the GF or GWF. WoB is so broken right now, as the damage it does seems to ignore defenses. I can dodge it at times when I time my dodge correctly but it doesn't seem to take Defenses into account.
Anyway, the INT Scoundrel build I thought of actually has Gloaming Cut feated with Sneaky Stabber as well, so it's sort of works like a hybrid. Its functions will depend on what set you have equipped. You'll be able to perma with Skulkers, or go tanky and spam encounters + dailies with Master Duelist. Should be pretty fun, right?
And I think I'll try Action Rush + WR and VP later in Preview.
Bilethorn doesn't seem to be stacking from DoT's, sadly. Dish. Strike and DF bleeds don't proc it as per my observations. But if it did, and if by any chance I'm wrong (hopefully), that'd be really awesome. Been loving Bilethorn since Open Beta.
I like this. I haven't seen a Whisperknife take me out of Stealth yet so it'd be great if I could see a video of this. I'm really curious. If it seems successful, we may have to cook up a counter for that. Most, if not all counters for stealth-based TR's in PVP have hard counters to them. Path of the Blades and Bilethorn can be countered by slotting higher RSI gear and equipping Tenacious Concealment. Static AoE like Icy Terrain, Smoke Bomb, Thorn Ward, and Split the Sky can be countered by staying away from them, by dodging, or by ITC. And lastly, the most recent one will be the HR's OP Fox Shift mechanic that will not go into CD unless it hits something. So HR's can spam this until the encounter detects a TR in the vicinity. But dropping a Bait and Switch dummy in front of the HR will make him waste his Fox Shift.
I'm curious as to how a WK can do this with its skills. From my knowledge, tagging a TR in Stealth with VP will not allow you to teleport to the TR. But I may be wrong.
Once you tag someone, the 2nd activation will teleport and attack the target regardless of whether the target is visible or not.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
well courage breaker is 10 seconds, but in single target situations ur not going to fill ur ap bar in 10 seconds unless u get very lucky proccing action rush on every encounter cast, its rng, its more like 15-20 secs in reality. good thing is that if ur planning on tanking u dont have to use ur stealth the moment it gets refilled with the daily u can save it for when the debuff wears off and u also got itc there for to keep u alive till u can debuff him again.
For pvp i started using courage breaker for fun, but in reality ur better off with lurkers (with the improved cunning sneak bug that doesnt make u drop stealth) so u can spam 6 impacts or just shocking execution to finish off those tanks. Wob is very nice for GG though, always use that even with my executioner in gg XD.
As for feating gloaming cut with sneaky stabber just be aware that if u do that u will have to drop either catpaw style or mocking nave and both are good dps contributors. Id say just go the standard xlades int based perma as uve got the stat rolls and the recovery, just be sure to take all them needed heroic feats like swift footwork, twilight adept and improved cunning sneak.
yeah ill have to go into preview myself to test those vp shenanigans XD
That's actually irrelevant. Like mentioned, the main emphasis here is that the 2nd activation; the teleport-melee portion of VP tracks a target and lands a hit regardless of stealth. When that happens, since the stealth does not grant total invisibility in NW, you are teleported to visible range. Since VP has no cooldown, you immediately reactivate VP to tag him once more.
You might think you can still escape out of visible range before a new tag, but the Paragon Feat with Executioner path grants a 40% slow when the teleport-attack hits. This is a very short duration slow -- I think it lasts for maybe 2~3 seconds at most -- but that's still plenty enough to reactive VP immediately.
A very first tag is required, that's the tricky part, but once tagged, you literally track the target TR through stealth indefinately. So when a Whisperknife with VP tags you, there is no escape unless someone else interevenes and helps out. Literally, nothing escapes a WK.
...
So usually, when I meet the now-majority stealth/knife throwing builds, what happens is that I start off with initial disadvantages as the enemy usually has the luxury of first strike. Both TRs meet, enter stealth. Usually their stealth lasts longer since most ranged TR builds incorporate at least Bait and Switch for prolonged stealth term. Initially the enemy has the advantage of pouring down the first barage of Cloud of Steel and a few shots of Impact Shot.
But unless it's a real perma-stealth build, they show up sooner or later, and for me it becomes important to try to minimize damage as much as possible. Luckily, since most people don't use WK in PvP, but rather takes MI Paragon path for ITC, at least they don't have Disheartening Strike.
Now, if I can successfully locate them during my own stealth duration, or as soon as possible when my own stealth runs out, then this disadvantage is minimized. Hence, if I expect a lot of rogues as enemies I use the Lantern artifact in these type of 1vs1 encounters.
Anyhow, Cloud of Steel is spent, Impact Shots are spent. The one weakness of knife throwing builds would be that they rely on limited charges, so they have a fluctuation in offensive capacity. That is why they go into stealth so often, so they can pucker away. The Whisperknife build takes that as an advantage, so once the target is spotted, going into stealth doesn't mean anything. The Whisperknife keeps on chasing you through stealth and lands VP shots -- not a big damage, but when you are busy trying to shake the WK, the VP damage keeps piling up, and the WK keeps on chasing you and hitting you until stealth is gone.
Do you wait for the full 24/36 seconds for Cloud of Steel and Impact Shot to fully recharge? If you do you are exposed to 24/36 seconds of 2~2.5k damages. If you decide to fight back and throw a few shots, then you are stationary. The WK starts landing the Wicked Reminder stacks and Sly Flourish combos + continuous bleed from Disheartening Strike. You throw a few knives, ammunition spent again, so you run, and the WK keeps coming again. You enter back in stealth, but the WK chases you and hits you through that again.
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Its essentially a method of denying the range/stealth, and keep forcing you into melee range. Most of the average TRs I've met in PvP were not expecting this to happen, and thus usually show signs of panic and try frantically to run -- in which case, they're dead.
I've had my share of failures though -- and these were TRs that wield hybrid builds, so they at least have one good melee weapon, like Lashing Blades. Also, if the fight starts out with my HP in disadvantage, I am also exposed to Shocking Execution if things go bad.
Another common failures are fights with people at somewhat large gear-gap... in which case, these guys can just ouright stand still and throw stuff despite getting hit, and still outdamage me.
But it is a really, really high paced and fun (and quite reliable) way to fight.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
uumhh..... thats a bit whishfull thinking, if u get into masterinfiltrators face with vp what makes u think he will not just use itc to facetank u and duelist flurry u down? that 100% deflect with the trs deflect severity is gona nullify wicked reminder and as wk u dont have the same tool to go facetanking him.
I think wk is best as a perma at mid range where u can stay out of trouble and just drain his life away since u have unlimited hard hitting ammo.
Just tested in Preview a while back and you're right, I actually had to give up Catspaw Style. Mocking Knave is too good to pass on. I like how tanky I could get by having increased ITC uptime but I now see the biggest problem this build can encounter in both PVP and PVE. It is heavily reliant on Action Rush, and Action Rush (while convenient) doesn't proc as often as I want it to. But being able to shave seconds off my ITC and Dazing Strike CD is really nice. WR's AP gain is almost non-existent too. Which leads me to the conclusion that it may be better to have Impact Shot slotted instead of WR, since Impact Shot generates a decent amount of AP and the animation is almost instantaneous. I guess I'll be experimenting a bit more about this but so far it seems pretty enjoyable since it's action-packed.
PS. VP + Dazing Strike + WR, feated with Action Rush = So much win. ♥ Buggy zero CD VP feated with Action Rush, not only does it do cool stuff, it looks cool too.
It relies on several facts:
(1) More and more rogues are simply dumping melee powers: obviously stealth/ranged knife thrower builds are somewhat successful so a lot of people build these in the first place and surprisingly (in my experience), as as result their experience in melee range positioning, power timing and etc.. I found to be severely lacking. They literally don't know how to fight in melee.
(2) Most people have a tendency to try and save ITC for more obvious CCs/prones, or when facing bigger targets like GWFs. They rather seem to hesitate to use it in open combat.
(3) DF needs an activation time, very obvious and slow. The two big slashes prior to the final attack is like a ginormously telegraphed punch. I've actually seen someone trying it though -- he was ingenius enough to stop running, and just activate DF without a target in hopes that I "teleport into" the 3rd attack. But it wasn't too efficient, IMO.
No doubt. But the best way is not exactly the most fun way
It does become a more "in-and-out", "hit-and-run", or "dance like a butterfly and sting like a bee" when I fight GWFs with it (and actually take them out), since the risk per mistake becomes very high.
(ps) I've heard your making videos. I used fraps to capture some good fights to demonstrate this build and fighting tactics, but I found out doing full quality gives you like 10gbs and takes days to upload to Youtube. I tried lowering the size to half-size, but then the film resolution is just horrible.
What kind of resolutions, sizes, setting should I use? Any tips?
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Hence the reason why I'd actually prefer VP to remain as an at-will power -- even if the damage is low. The very key to all the mobility and action my build shows off is relies heavily in VP, and if VP gains too much of a buff, at the price of cooldown time, it'd literally destroy the build and the fighting style itself.
I would actually prefer VP remain the same, and not get any 'upgrades', if that means getting a recharge time.
(ps) VP is listed as an encounter, but the tool tip is categorized as an at-will. Does VP proc Action Rush?? I've never tried this.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
How is that irrelevant. Anyone that actually wishes to use this move needs to take this into account. Its not like deft strike, you dont need to target your enemy to pursue them. Only the initial knife throw needs to hit them and you can focus on something or someone else in the span of 7-9 seconds. Or you lose your pursuit chance. That is not mentioned in the tooltip and for anyone to use it to its full potential, that needs to be known.
In that case, I think I misunderstood. I thought you were saying VP's not viable as an anti-stealth tool because the "tag" duration is too short.
My apologies.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Same. I hope VP stays as it is. But I'm pretty sure you already know that before one of the December patches, VP had a CD associated with it. I remember it was somewhere along 15 - 17 seconds, which is why a lot of players who tested this path were outraged by it not being as good as ITC. So it won't be getting "upgraded" if the devs decide to fix the VP CD bug. It'll be a correction. The upgrade will be when the devs announce that they want VP to stay the way it is. And that would be REALLY awesome. If it stays the way it is right now, as a zero CD encounter, it'd be as if we had a third at-will and will definitely make WK a more desirable path. But of course people will eventually complain, and Cryptic themselves know that they have to address this unintended mechanic one way or another.
So if by any chance you absolutely want this skill in your build, you may wish to take the CD into consideration and try not to rely on the zero CD bug.
And yes, VP procs Action Rush, both the knife throw and the teleport.
I must thank you, tod... I've actually tried out the Whisperknife/Scoundrel path.
The little bit of drop in damage was a bit of a disappointment.. but I must say....
Daaaayumn...!
I think it incorporated the last piece of the puzzle I was missing. The amazing rate of action point gain became what made up for the loss of damage, and helped a lot with utility as well. I think I'm now confident enough to disclose the Whisperknife/Scoundrel as a worthy alternative to the now-majority stealth/knife thrower style. After I switched to Scoundrel, now my intial build is performing like on crack.
I've made a bit of adjustments to the choice of encounters as well: the Smokebomb is clearly a good choice, but when it is switched to Shadow Strike the Whisperknife now runs around in the middle of enemies at close ranges, slashing here and there, like a crazy ball of knives.
I've also incorporated a technique which I've dubbed "Rolling Slash" (some of you might know of this already) -- it's when you activate the 2nd portion of the VP, the teleport-melee part, and then immediately enter dodge, the end result is an ultra-cool looking "rolling slash" motion, which also has a TON of utility, especially against strong melees, as well as CW/HR that dashes a lot.
If the stealth/knife thrower build is a quiet, careful, and sneaky feel, my build is more like running on high octane in a Formula-1 race kind of, adrenal-rush feel. I think a lot of people could try this and enjoy it, and perhaps even develop it further!
Thank you guys -- your ideas and suggestions, and crfiticism helped a lot!!!
(ps) Killing GWFs has never been more fun!!
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
What''s your build kweassa?
yeah, agreed.
its always good to be innovationg, trying things out and playing how u want to play.
For videos i use msi afterburner, its free and doesnt make huge files. But then i dont have any program for the postprocessing so i just let utube do it and end up with terrible quality videos XD.