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8300 GS Too Low for Pug Epics
eridthor
Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild Users Posts: 29 Arc User
I have had the misfortune of joining some dread vault epic pugs where the rest of the group was sitting on 8300 GS, mostly without any runes, green or white shirts, and lots of blues.
I don't mean to sound elitist and I am sure there are coordinated/experienced players who can do these dungeons (probably on alts after running it before on a main).
What I am saying is 8300 is too low to enter via queue, needs to be bumped up to 10k+. All the groups do is fail and leave a bugged instance, which is another topic.
I don't mean to sound elitist and I am sure there are coordinated/experienced players who can do these dungeons (probably on alts after running it before on a main).
What I am saying is 8300 is too low to enter via queue, needs to be bumped up to 10k+. All the groups do is fail and leave a bugged instance, which is another topic.
Post edited by eridthor on
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Yes there can be horrible gear score groups I mean horrible compared to the challenge. I have even met in normal(not epic) Dread Vault when I very rarely do it(if Lord Neverwinter gives quest) and I have NOTHING better to do then perhaps and in these there has been people with green gear that is not even level 60.
Yes I have the misfortune to enter other PUGS with people with to low gearscore
Look here first boons was not very clear not even to me in the beginning and everybody does not like expansions or Gauntlgrym(I do like Gauntlgrym). There are a minority(not me) of people that prefer to do basic gear development first Tier 1 and then Tier 2.
Anyway even my very casual real life friend player has managed to get one character to 10k+... and I am more a hardcore free player. That said little bit of adjustment is maybe ok but you should not ruin the minority chance to try hard challenge.
If there is any adjustment then very small maybe 8k to 9k or something like that.
There are some people who like hard challenge. Yes likely they are doomed if they meet endboss but some pugs are content if they do the first and/or second boss only.
I am not saying it would be a problem for me but careful adjusting requirements 12k sounds harsh. Most annoying thing is those groups that NEED a CW for everything. Lol you dont need CW for every run and I am not super impressed by all Wizards it depends on the player skill also and not only gearscore.
My first Cleric was little over 10k when he first time won Castle Never endboss.
The GS requirement to join through the queue is below 9k, I cant remember if its 8300 or 8600. Pugs join and expect to be able to do it with that because its the requirement. I agree 12k is more correct, requirement should be bumped to 10k+ to join solo queue. For people who want to form a premade and queue as a team if they want the challenge thats fine but they need to stop allowing 9k PUGS with white shirts and pants to join these queues.
Gear Score is no measure of how well the player will work with the party. All it can be used for is as a guard against characters with woefully inadequate gear (like green level 40-50 weapons).
You still get players with 10k+ GS who can't figure out how to work with a team, either as a person or with their class.
Player skill and team communication are always going to be important for difficult content. Increasing the GS requirement for that content is not going to change this.
i will agree to disagree with you on people buying their way into a high GS and being bad. unless its a trust fund baby the same people who have the drive to make money, or have the drive to gear up without money, are the same ones with the drive to learn their class to the best. I have yet to run into a terrible player in NW who has tricked out gear but the scenario I have written the OP about happens constantly, and has helped lead to the impression that the dungeon system in this game is broken.
Firstly, you have just about anything boosting GS. Active Companion, Artifacts, Boons, Feats, slotted Features, Hitpoints (from CON, feats) etc.
Secondly, GS is a sum, it doesn't mean you have the points in the "best" categories. Having a 12k DC who has several thousand points in Life Steal, Armor Penetration, Regeneration isn't going to help you in PvE. Similarly, having a GF with a ton of power due to Conqueror tree and no defensive stats is also going to not help you beat the dungeon, just like DPS characters who have no Armor Penetration and a lot of defensive stats or recovery.
Artifacts, boons and active bonuses in particular have made it possible for players in T1 or blue gear to reach 13k GS, when previously they'd have 10-11k at best. Those extra GS points are more often than not in stats which are less useful than others.
You can on the other hand have someone who has blue/T1 gear barely reaching 9k GS but having those points all in the "right" stats to make this character a strong contributor to the team and easily outperfoming those with inflated GS. These folks tend to pick equipment and bonuses which are less likely to grant a GS boost but grant a utility boost instead (think chance of extra damage or other effects vs 200 more stat, times 5 for each companion slot)
If GS only considered the items you were actually wearing, minus artifacts, and grant an arbitrary GS boost for 4/4 as opposed to 2+2 then it would become a more useful measure, as people will find less benefit of inflating their GS with random stat bonuses.
I've pug'd T2 before, some good, some bad.
I don't pay attention to Gear Score because I don't suffer from Gear Score Fixation Syndrome. If your gs meets the requirement for a dungeon, I'll run with ya. We wipe, so what, try again. Its the only way to learn.
Heh...this is like people spamming for raid in WoW for people with a 561 ilvl when the place their going only drops max of like 548. Great logic.
People are queuing for 8300 dungeons because they expect their 9300 toon to be able to deal with that dungeon. Where are they going to get more gear to get them up to 12k when the only other thing they could run gives crappier gear than they are already probably wearing? (T1 dungeons etc)
Explosivo - Scrub geared MoF CW - Climb upon my BIG ASSED steed....
you got it wrong afraid... alot of blues were BiS and some still are.
is rly hard to read all comments so i resume at the last post usually...
These arent rly exceptions as alot of blues are better for GF/GWF (in GF case blues are on par with T2 set for a conqueror spec), in pvp TR/HR are using blues as well even low lvl blues as they give better stats, only class i dont recall seeing with blues is CW. Problem is here since beta so is not something rly new and alot of threads were about this issue: Itemization in NWO is strange.
12k is way to much though I have 3 characters that are 12k+, but maybe they could raise gs requirement a bit for example to 9300.
My guild actually put together self made guides on each dungeon with a recommended average GS. If I remember correctly, I listed them below.
PK = 8500
SP = 9000
Karrundax = 9,500
Dreadvault = 10,000
MC = 11,500
VT/CN = 14k+ w/ Soulforge
Halfling - Devoted Cleric - Divine Oracle
Neverwinter Tribunal
<Genocidal Tendencies>
www.genotendencies.enjin.com
Karrundax, again, if you have a capable kiting GF, you don't need more than the 8300 listed, especially since Flamespikers were weakened. I'd argue the same for Frozen Heart.
SP 9k sounds about right if people are capable of small pulls and working as a team.
TOS probably 9.5k if geared in the correct stats and you have a capable tank and cleric + 2 DPS TR/GWF. Done it before at low GS. A lot of high GS teams fail because they just stack more CWs or don't bring a GF who can reliably aggro everything which arguably is a bad idea for Syndryth. T2 stat weapons (not the DV ones, but equivalent) help a lot. You want as large of a variety of debuffs as possible to boost party damage output, not personal damage.
DV I would argue you'd want 11.5k at least. maybe 13k if you want to beat Yshiggol as well.
VT/CN, you can do comfortably with 10-11k GS up until the final boss. There you'd likely want 12.5k at least.
Halfling - Devoted Cleric - Divine Oracle
Neverwinter Tribunal
<Genocidal Tendencies>
www.genotendencies.enjin.com
Valindras Tower is another story. First Boss fight in VT is easy and hardest boss fights in CN is certainly tougher then first boss in VT. With glitch I won many times VT endboss.
Without glitch I have never won VT endboss and my main Cleric is 14k+ and last time I tried it with a group with about exact average gs 14k last time was fairly close to win, but after 4 wipes gave up.
I have talked with many people about VT and general opinion is that group should have average gs 15k+ for VT endboss fight for realistic chance. I am still very happy about Valindras Tower within this week I get enough seals to get second VT item and then I will equip them when I have combo bonus of 2 items of a set.
Valindras Tower is also nice to do multiple times since it is short. There is nothing wrong to have long run like Castle Never 4/4 and it is good that there is difference in Dungeon length so not all Dungeons have same length.
Quite possibly one of most stupid admissions you could ever make on the games official forums.
13k grp done it in the first week... is all about having a minimum of strategy.. it rly isnt that hard. CN on the other hand, done proper way, it is a real challenge and it is much harder imo than VT...
If talking about loot luck then I have been lucky in Gauntlgrym and Castle Never. Valindras Tower has never given me any good loot that I can sell for good profit on Auction House.
I actually have seen blue Mark of Power as loot drop from first boss in VT rarely, but I have never been lucky with that. The only blue Mark of Power that I have not bought from Auction House I got with Platinum Glove from Shadowmantle expansion one of those 3 SOLO Dungeons though do not remember which of them.
Halfling - Devoted Cleric - Divine Oracle
Neverwinter Tribunal
<Genocidal Tendencies>
www.genotendencies.enjin.com
I've done ToS legit on my HR in all blues with no weapon enchant, and I was 2nd in damage dealt (20M - 1 CW had 27M in the end - we had 1 wipe because of bad strategy at last boss). The group was 2xCW, GF, DC and my HR. It's not that hard - just takes a while in a group that doesn't have top dps.
CN now requires good gear - I'd say 12-13k again, with DCs being the exception, as they are the least gear dependent class.
Finally I forgot to mention that GWF and GF has extra gs or another way to describe it if a TANK gets Defense then his/her GS goes up incredibly.
My 14k+ Cleric would be 20k+++ gs as Guardian Fighter to give a hint. A 12k gs GF can have pretty bad gear still get 12k gs.
There are difference with builds on that one you are correct. I have seen in same run a miserable TANK Guardian Fighter with 17k+ gs die like a baby vs Gauntlgrym Dwarf King mobs. After that Tank left us abandoned party but we won battle with an awesome GWF 13k who did SOLO all adds in Gauntlgrym Dwarf King!
That said, such parties are good for farming cn, but massive overkill for t2 n
Back in the day we could clear t2 with 9.5k no problem. We just don't remember those days very well. Back then you'd have to plan each encounter and be careful but you would still win.
ThAt said, the fixes to the tricks and the nerds have made it harder, but still possible for a low gs party. It just requires coordination that most pugs lack.
Ultimately skill and coordination are the lst important thing. Not gs. But gs really really helps.
Also as noted proper balance means a lot. Too many players over stack offense and undervalue defense, lifesteal and regen. A well balanced player can stay alive much longer.
As for the requirements, maybe a bit too low, especially the last few instances, but not by a ton.
Everything you need to know about CW:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?780981-Chem-s-CW-Compendium-Everything-you-need-to-know
IMHO the problem is not that some people with 9k gs are trying to do T2 but more the bad design of several boss fight in several dungeon.
Any professional company test what they propose to their client, this company doesn't it's as simple as that.
The day they will show on a "live video" how to complete all dungeon with the minimum GS then I'll change my mind.
they might succeed on few bosses.. but certainly not in karrundax, Temple of spider etc.
So yeah asking 8600 gs for a T2 may be a bit too low but we have to deal with that.. everybody cannot spend real money to buy a stone or cat or a weapon/chest artifact. If they count on AD they'll need a lot of time to grab all requirement..
I stopped playing many months ago and return for the HR.. I can tell you that a lot of actual 14/15k guys were the one who used all possible glitches to get AD and items from dungeon.. but now they cannot accept that some people try to have the same the normal way bacause with a lower GS it'll take more time or the run will be harder.
I tell you the problem is that it's not acceptable that a 8600 GS dungeon cannot be done without a group of people with at least +2000K, period.
So blame the Dev so the HAMSTER work they've done on dungeon but not the guy who has the button "join" enable and try to do something now that he got it flashing.