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Whisperknife Builds
zekehubris
Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 79 Arc User
I'm curious, this paragon path has been out for a while now, what builds have people tried out with it? What worked? What didn't? Can you do a good perma stealth with it?
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First off, Rogue is, currently, the only melee range class that isn't fully tanked out. GF's have shield and naturally tanky base stats. GWF's have Determination and a threatening stunlock rotation. HR doesn't even have to go melee since their ranged skills are ridiculously overtuned. So, Rogue is the squishiest of all the melee-range classes but have a naturally high crit potential. From what I notice, Rogues have 2 major problems in PvP: Sticking and Chasing.
Sticking is, IMO, the hardest for a Rogue. You Lashing Blade a CW from Stealth and chunk him for a good amount of health. Now what? He dashes away. CW can dash 3 times and has the CC to keep you at bay. Rogue can only dash 2 times and Deft Strike has a hefty cooldown. Solution? Vengeance's Pursuit! Except no. The first part of the skill has a moderately long animation. It's long enough that someone's going to CC you in the middle of it, even less so if you skill the interrupt feat for it. The Second part has a range similar to Deft Strike but the damage is almost low enough to be exclusively used for a gap closer.
For Chasing, VP almost serves the same purpose but I can't remember the last time a CW was running away from me and didn't try to use some form of CC to widen the gap or gain the upper hand. VP will get you caught with your pants down. Disheartening Strike and Hateful Knives fill the gap here. However, DH's animation is also relatively long and HK is a daily, they're not always up when you need them.
Really, unless you're ridiculously overgeared, perma-stealth Rogue is the best way to maximize your life-span between deaths in BG. I find dead rogues do minimal DPS. Since you're the only melee-range class that isn't fully tanked out and your gap-closing/sticking/chasing skills have moderately long animations, stealth is the best mechanic to overcome that.
tl;dr Whisperknife is only moderately better than Master Infiltrator for PvP. Go Perma-Stealth and it doesn't matter.
Go Cryptic!
PS - I quit.
Moderately better? Oh come on get your facts straight before spouting nonsense. Check any top-tier tr who does premades and stuff, they all are pretty much master infiltrators. Why you ask? Because it has been proven to be most effective way in domination pvp. TRs shine at node holding with high stealth uptime, ITC, high hp and regen. Second best after senti gwfs tbh.
Like I said, these are just my observations. I don't participate in premade BGs. I don't run with a guild to do everything with me no matter where I go. I join pugs and see how it goes. Just from experience with a lot of other games, there's not much you can't get to work in a premade group setting.
Sorry that I'm not a 20k TR with perfect enchants and a 5-star guild behind me.
Go Cryptic!
PS - I quit.
If you mean hp with 20k then lol. If you mean 20k gs then you can pretty much steamroll anything
You need to consider the fact that those "top level" "premade/rank game quality" people are typically maybe less than 5% of the entire PvP population at any given game. Usually, in any MMOG, around 10% play hardcore PvP, another 10% play both PvP and PvE, and about 80% never play PvP at all. If it comes to Neverwinter, the tyranny of the Astral Diamonds (:p) push probably most people into playing PvP at least a few times a dayl, but they are largely the folk who feel uncomfortable and are exposed to brutal punishment through the 4-match daily requirement for 4,000 ADs. These are usually the "all GS and no PvP sense at all" folk.
When we speak of what is viable or not, we need to loosen up a bit and try and think about the days when we were all average at some point of our PvP lives (which, in my case, I'm still probably below average
Well, that's the state the absolute majority of players are in. When something works against these level of people, it can be said that it works well in most cases. We should really consider this as a fact when we speak of PvP balance or performance, because PvPers have too much a tendency to look above their heads, rather than below their feet.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
I meant sarcasm but it seems a basic grasp of reality isn't the only thing that's beyond you.
Go Cryptic!
PS - I quit.
With no disrespect, it is not much of a problem, really. I can understand why Master Infiltrators have trouble with sticking/chasing, but as for Whisperknives, literally, "No one escapes a Whisperknife". The background explanation of the Whisperknife path heavily implies some sort of vengeance-driven tracker/avenger/vigilante, and the tenacious nature of the power Vengeance's Pursuit, fits in perfectly with the concept.
It simply depends on experience of timing it right. You close in for the first attack and open up the alpha-strike. The enemy dashes away. However, you can't dash and attack simultaneously. It is when the enemy 'shifts' away, is when you activate VP. It doesn't matter whether the knife hits or not. The enemy is still 'tagged' once VP is activated.
So you are stunned. Big deal. Wait it out and then teleport in. Even if the enemy runs straight away after the CC, VP still tracks him. Its range is incredibly long, its actually even longer than the 80' range on stealthed Deft Strike. I've never seen the official figures, but I'm guessing its around 100~120' maximum.
Active use of stealth comes in handy. For one thing, if someone wants to CC you to widen the gap, you go into stealth, and stun with the VP to regain the upperhand. A supplementary use of the power Shadow Strike can go a long way to even things out.
Besides, having trouble in 'sticking', conversely, means the enemy is moving. If he is moving, he is not attacking. Every moment he moves around, is every moment he spends not attacking. With Disheartening Strike bleeding him dry, the longer he runs and tries to shake you, the more the 'scale' tips in your favor.
I agree with stealth is the best mechanic. Its essential for BOTH MIs and WKs. But its use can be different, and the WK rogues have a different role from MI rogues. The melee-WK roles also differe from ranged-WK roles as well.
In the end it comes down to preference, and determination, methinks.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
This might have something to do with that i was drunk last night when i've written the quoted comment. Didn't even remember that one.
I honestly think WK has as much potential.
Without a doubt, MI + heavy dependancy on stealth really IS the more stable build. I doubt anyone can dispute that as a fact. It's an easy build and easy tactic to play with. Do not be mistaken in thinking that this is an insult -- a build that is easy to learn and play with, means it is that much universal, effective, and suits many players despite different skill/gear levels.
However, one thing I've noticed wit all those MI builds, is that:
(1) They don't do as much damage as you might expect, in reality
(2) They are slow to react and limited in movement
(3) Too much reliant on stealth, and too much emphasis on preservation
(4) Their role is much too limited in combat
Compared to that, a WK build is much more unstable, difficult to master, has distinct weaknesses you need to learn to cover meticulously. But I honestly think I am contributing a helluva lot more to my team's win after I went WK/VP, than when I used MI/stealth/knifethrower builds.
Its a pity that these type of contributions do not show up as numbers in the scoreboard... anyone I've saved multiple times from death, all those enemy team formations I've managed to smash, enemy rogues in stealth I've tracked, harassed, and chased away from our node, clerics I've helped bring down with debuff stacks... non of these are outright glamorous as kills, but I think every single one of them played a crucial role in games I've been in.
MI and WK is different. Different roles, different possibilities. No reason to limit the TR's role to just 'damage'. Its just one of many possible roles.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Gloom level 60 Control Wizard
Dusk level 60 Trickster Rogue
Dawn level 60 Devoted Cleric
Eclipse level 60 Hunter Ranger
Wrath level 60 Great Weapon Fighter
Jinx level 60 Scourge Warlock
I sincerely doubt a wk can match a mi using a build similar to esteenas in pve damage
Only downfall that Whisperknife has(For me and my <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> gear) is the CC, if a class with a ton of CC is on you, it's a hard fight to win.
Warzdak Stormforge - 60 GF
Shazrak Stormforge - 60 DC
Shadazar - 60 TR
ExGM of Maven, proud member of PRX. Currently guildless in Neverwinter.
WK gains ap faster and can have higher damage boosts active longer than MI can.
Gloom level 60 Control Wizard
Dusk level 60 Trickster Rogue
Dawn level 60 Devoted Cleric
Eclipse level 60 Hunter Ranger
Wrath level 60 Great Weapon Fighter
Jinx level 60 Scourge Warlock
ok u take t2 saboteur...So what are u going to drop, brutal backstab, critical team work or deadly momentum?... besides loosing underhanded tactics.
i would not trade any of those 2 class features over more crit chance when using a p. vorpal... and sincerely id rather have 15% damage boost for the next 6 seconds than a 15% damage boost on whirlwind of blades ( the only skill u mentioned i use regularly on serious dungeon running).
My mind is pretty made up on that, and id need some serious proof to change it.
We are limited to damagedealer role in pve, no other reason to take a tr to a dungeon than to kill bosses fast. In pvp, our role is backcapping and holding a point against even 5 enemies as long as possible. Which requires great survivability and which WK has none except stealth. Once a WK gets proned he's pretty much done for. And as anyone who plays pvp knows that prones are the king of CC in pvp and we only have 1 prone which a daily and only if you chose whisperknife. ITC is just too important for both pve and pvp. Dead dps is poor dps. And in pvp, it's pretty much mandatory to counter all the prones and all the other cc. Just the joining date of your account is enough to prove that you haven't been around for long enough to know the specifics to meta-builds for pve and pvp. Get to learn your class before trying educate others with nonsense. No offense intended.
ITC isn't needed to do good in PVP. I don't use ITC. Never did. It's a crutch imho, for those who can't do the rogue thing. High alpha, run, hide, reopen. A surgeon's knife to remove/cripple key people in the fight, instead of a loltank that can ignore you 'cause I R IMMUNE!!!
It's been proven that WK can put out same numbers as MI. The TR's role is not always to back cap, as a change in paragon path means a change in role. Watching any of the videos would show that too, as she/he does an amazing job of crippling the team as well as constantly confusing them with the movement. I do much the same on an HR combat style, Marauder's rush/escape allows that in and out style and having something to do both at range and close is a nice thing.
Maybe it's because they're new (which may not be the case, could only be a recent account creation for the forum, not the game) that they can have a fresh look on the TR and turn the meta on it's ear?
Ok, let me put it this way. Why do every single top TR still use MI even though everyone tested WK on preview? (Yes, even I tested it.) Yes, WR is a different style to play tr, but it is not on par with MI. Compare only those paragon paths. VP for ITC? Hateful Knives for Shocking Execution? Disheartening Strike for Gloaming Cut(here I have to say, I don't like either of them but if choosing between them I would choose DS.) Class features can't even be compared. Actually, believe what you believe. I'm done arguing over such thing. I don't care if anyone wants to go WK. I will stay MI and i doubt any WK I will ever face will actually beat me in pvp. (As I'm pvp specced some might beat me in pve with dmg because I don't have vorpal for example but I perform well enough still for groups to want me.)
Easy answer? They already know how to be top TR with MI.
When you have new tools, it takes time to learn them, adapt, learn the cool downs, learn the hidden cool downs, learn the nifty tricks that aren't in the skill descs. Look at what TR has evolved into from the executioner "I pop LB you fall down" builds that it started with? It takes people dedicating time to actively try the new thing, to learn all the in's and out's and get it to the point where they can play at the level of the top end currents.
That's the best part about getting the new path. They didn't take *away* anything from the old path. They just made a new way for people to play. You see it how you do. She/he has obviously found something that works. Is it 'uberleetbestest4evar' right now? Of course not.. the testing has only begun, it hasn't had almost a year's refinement.
I do thank you, however, for keeping it civil. It's refreshing to not be called newb just because I support the tester in their testing.
http://nwcalc.com/tr?b=cn4:13ydj4:13ydj4,13j3ifc:150u00:15uu51:100000&h=0&p=wkn
(feat only build)
Already high AP gain from DS coupled with Action Rush = Lots of Daily spam = more bonus damage from features.
I see a lot more synergy in a Scoundrel +2 Saboteur build than in an Executioner for WK, especially the way the Paragon Feats were exchanged.
Even if we give WK a year or more, it will still perform poorly compared to MI, atleast in pvp. The feedback thread when it was on preview says enough about WK and nothing will change if they don't buff the path. Yes, currently VP doesn't have a cooldown at all (which it should have, but as of now its not WAI) but even with that it's still not on par with ITC, the first version of VP didn't even have the ability to break free from CC. And well, I don't claim that MI is perfect, I think we could see much nicer paths in the future.
I fully agree! There is so much that both MI and WK can get to make them better. My point is that a year from now, the MI will have had 2 years of people tuning to the top end possible and WK will have a year. It'll be getting to the point MI is at now. Thus why I say it should be given a chance. on the test server, they were testing if it worked to start with and didn't have the true ability to give it full runs to figure out the specifics.
EDIT: forgot to mention, the main reason people changed their styles with MI was the continuous nerfs.
Vengeance Pursuit reduces their damage to everyone by 9%
(I'm assuming the base value is the same as the level bonuses)
Not sure if these stack to 24% reduction but you can have both of these up basically all the time, with DS potentially on multiple targets.
People perform poorly with Whisperknife builds because they expect to do with it the same job a MI build does. But really, new path, new powers, new builds = "new role" -- its pretty obvious. Just take your mention of VP and ITC as an example. You are comparing the two on grounds that both are CC breakers. Well, its not. The CC breaker trait of VP just doesn't work. No, its a totally different power for totally different purposes. Its a power that allows you fight like Marvel's Nightcrawler™ , not like how ITC allows you to dodge/deflect/CC immunity everything like Spiderman™.
Different powers, different implications, different roles. There's no reason to limit the TR's role to solo node-assaults.
PvP builds and roles are very sensitive about its efficiency, and therefore people are fairly conservative when it comes to new possibilities. They'd rather stick to a method that is proven over time, than rather jump to given possibilities and really experiment thoroughly with it --- since that process of experimentation inevitably concerns lot of resources put into repeated respecs, and a often long, painful, gruelling test-period where you meet countless failures.
I am not trying to boast about my efforts with WK, but just as a general reminder, it takes people with courage to try something new and try seek out hidden "treasures" about new powers and builds. Sure, I was also pretty much disappointed at VP when I first tried it. Pitiful damage gap-closer, but slow activation and often glitch. Is this it? Is this all a Paragon power gives you? That's what I thought, until I really tried to make it work in PvP. Now, as a result, I've found hidden qualities never before mentioned in this forum. Nobody else really looked into that deep, people simply gave up VP as being useless in PvP. Well, I beg to differ. I've experienced what it can do.
It takes an open mind to see something clearly without bias. I would like to ask fellow rogue players to do so. MI has its role. WK has another. Many of us just has not discovered what it is, yet.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Let me put it this way: Why does everyone on these forums immediately run to the "Why do these guys with 50k GS and perfect equips choose this path when they queue with their premade team of guildies"?
Fact of the matter is, a lot of players in this game know how broken PvP is. A lot of players don't even bother with PvP aside from dailies and leveling. Out of the ones who elect to participate in PvP after 60, 90%+ of the TRs aren't the people you're talking about. They're not geared the same or queueing with a premade.
So, please, stop leaning on your crutch and come up with something inventive. It's no wonder most of the people I see in Dom lately are all a bunch of meatheads repeating the same garbage all day. They're too busy staring at the sun to see what's right in front of them.
Go Cryptic!
PS - I quit.
My build is:
tenacious, sneak attack for class features
at wills: cloud of steel and disheartening strike
encounters: shadow strike, path of the blade and bait and switch.
Critical overrun seems bugged with disheartening strike, im not sure if ds doesnt get the benefit from it or just doesnt remove the buff once its used.
Lets say u proc critical overrun with cos ( u get the buff icon) when u crit with a follow up ds the buff doesnt go away (or gets used) until the buff expires or u crit with something else.