Therefore, it is usually an indicator of a failure in balance -- not necessarily between classes or powers, but rather (and more likely) a failure to balance the mechanics of defense vs. offense.
I believe decreasing the weight of defensive stats/mechanics will lead for more intense and shorter fights.
GWFs do deserve special mention in PVP. The very concept of a DPS Tank is just bad for business for PVP. Cryptic has been on point with the concept but it just works too well in the PVP environment. GWFs is all rock, scissor and paper.
Nonetheless, PVP in NWO I feel is a value add. THis game been designed to be PVE with a touch of PVP thrown in for depth.
There's been mention or rumors of a PVP module. No official word but I reckon with the present foundation we have for PVP, it will largely not fix most of the issues plaguing NWO PVP. (If one who call them issues in the first place)
Regardless, that doesn't invalidate anything else in my post. I stopped playing before Module 2 went live because even then it stopped being enjoyable to me.
That's fine though, I was just trying to correct the whole "the average match is 45+ mins" because that part wasn't true at all.
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nearlydiamondMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 105Bounty Hunter
I believe decreasing the weight of defensive stats/mechanics will lead for more intense and shorter fights.
GWFs do deserve special mention in PVP. The very concept of a DPS Tank is just bad for business for PVP. Cryptic has been on point with the concept but it just works too well in the PVP environment. GWFs is all rock, scissor and paper.
Nonetheless, PVP in NWO I feel is a value add. THis game been designed to be PVE with a touch of PVP thrown in for depth.
There's been mention or rumors of a PVP module. No official word but I reckon with the present foundation we have for PVP, it will largely not fix most of the issues plaguing NWO PVP. (If one who call them issues in the first place)
My 0.02 AD worth of thoughts.
Disagree completely. GWF are balanced, and only the sentinel tree is great for PVP. As discussed in other posts sacrifices are made elsewhere for a GWF to be great in PvP, and also the same is true for other classes. I've been up against unkillable players from every other class. Don't come in here and whine that your PvE glass cannon build gets broken by another player specked for PvP. Instead why don't you respec to one of the PvP viable trees that ALL classes have, alter the balance of your gear a little and have some fun?
Disagree completely. GWF are balanced, and only the sentinel tree is great for PVP. As discussed in other posts sacrifices are made elsewhere for a GWF to be great in PvP, and also the same is true for other classes. I've been up against unkillable players from every other class. Don't come in here and whine that your PvE glass cannon build gets broken by another player specked for PvP. Instead why don't you respec to one of the PvP viable trees that ALL classes have, alter the balance of your gear a little and have some fun?
Because people don't want to spend 300 zen everytime they want to play something? Same reason people are probably complaining that GWF Sentinel spec isn't good in PvE and are told to go "respec to Swordmaster." This applies to all classes, a PvP super control oriented CW wouldn't do as good as a PvE based one in a dungeon.
Sentinel is TOO suited for PvP, they tank on par with an actual tank(GF) but can still deliver damage on par with a DPS class(maybe 1-3k less a hit but that's usually just overkill damage anyway).
Can I kill GWF's with my scrubby CW? Yeah if you give me 2 minutes and lots of space to constantly run because I spend at least 50% of the fight just running and trying to stay away waiting for unstoppable to wear off. Not always a doable thing.
Father McGruder - Scrub geared DPS DC - I kick HAMSTER for the Lord!
Explosivo - Scrub geared MoF CW - Climb upon my BIG ASSED steed....
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nearlydiamondMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 105Bounty Hunter
Because people don't want to spend 300 zen everytime they want to play something? Same reason people are probably complaining that GWF Sentinel spec isn't good in PvE and are told to go "respec to Swordmaster." This applies to all classes, a PvP super control oriented CW wouldn't do as good as a PvE based one in a dungeon.
Sentinel is TOO suited for PvP, they tank on par with an actual tank(GF) but can still deliver damage on par with a DPS class(maybe 1-3k less a hit but that's usually just overkill damage anyway).
Can I kill GWF's with my scrubby CW? Yeah if you give me 2 minutes and lots of space to constantly run because I spend at least 50% of the fight just running and trying to stay away waiting for unstoppable to wear off. Not always a doable thing.
That's the point. If you won't flex the way you spec and gear your class then you can't do everything. I maintain as a sentinel GWF with 4other classes all at 60, that there are plenty of examples of CW, DC, GF and TRs who have specced for PVP and destroyed by GWF. No one mentions the unkillable other classes. Seriously change how you play, don't campaign to homogenise everything so you don't have to work in a PvP environment to get your kills.
I believe the problem here is how people are building their characters rather than an issue with balance. People that go full tank GWFs are intentionally sacrificing a huge damage potential to become this invincible character. The problem is that these people are stacking on minimal effects of extra regen + defense by overloading the stat, instead of switching some of it over for a large offensive boost in comparison. I recently watched 2 of the best GWFs in game that are heavily involved in premades 1v1 eachother. It only took about 3-5 minutes and I saw pots/artifacts popping and in fact, the GWF that was using a tankier setup ended up losing by a decent margin. However, both of these GWFs did use vorpals.
People are looking at this completely wrong. They are trying to make an unkillable build when instead they should be going for the most effective build which results from investing in offensive stats. If you are going to 1v1 someone, is it better to stack an extra 250 defense on a tank for .5% DR, or add 250 arm pen for an additional 2% damage? When it comes down to it, someone who is maximizing their potential with those types of changes will win, but when you have people so focused 1 dimensionally on soely survivability, they are ruining their own potential to be a game changer rather than just a meatshield. Killing someone faster or being able to put pressure on them with damage will be able to help just as much as a little extra survivability if not more. GWFs should be able to smack out 15k+ IBS on other GWFs/GFs/DCs that are tanks when you build it right with small sacrifices to tanking. You are not going to have stalemate GWF vs GWF setups if you are utilizing something like this and are geared properly.
I'm not saying to cut regen or defense or HP out, but you need to find what is the most efficient balance between the stats to maximize potential instead of going straight survivability. This will allow for faster matches and matches where you are in more control of the outcome because you have killing potential rather than just tanking potential. It is a more effective way to play from my experience despite the fact that you will make small survivability sacrifices.
Other than that though, I've been loving mod 2 pvp much more. I don't think much if any changes are needed. Tank GWFs are really the only problem as far as people having trouble taking them out, but from my experience if you have 2 well geared DPS that know what they are doing, it should be no problem. Ice knife, shocking execution, GWF prones, GF prones, or even straight DPS builds for rogues, cw, or hr that neglect survivability in favor of damage all work effectively still against tanks.
Ultimately though, next mod = pvp update. Maybe modes where straight dps instead of survivability will be present or maybe there will be changes to how pvp works in general to make dps more favorable.
I believe the problem here is how people are building their characters rather than an issue with balance. People that go full tank GWFs are intentionally sacrificing a huge damage potential to become this invincible character. The problem is that these people are stacking on minimal effects of extra regen + defense by overloading the stat, instead of switching some of it over for a large offensive boost in comparison. I recently watched 2 of the best GWFs in game that are heavily involved in premades 1v1 eachother. It only took about 3-5 minutes and I saw pots/artifacts popping and in fact, the GWF that was using a tankier setup ended up losing by a decent margin. However, both of these GWFs did use vorpals.
People are looking at this completely wrong. They are trying to make an unkillable build when instead they should be going for the most effective build which results from investing in offensive stats. If you are going to 1v1 someone, is it better to stack an extra 250 defense on a tank for .5% DR, or add 250 arm pen for an additional 2% damage? When it comes down to it, someone who is maximizing their potential with those types of changes will win, but when you have people so focused 1 dimensionally on soely survivability, they are ruining their own potential to be a game changer rather than just a meatshield. Killing someone faster or being able to put pressure on them with damage will be able to help just as much as a little extra survivability if not more. GWFs should be able to smack out 15k+ IBS on other GWFs/GFs/DCs that are tanks when you build it right with small sacrifices to tanking. You are not going to have stalemate GWF vs GWF setups if you are utilizing something like this and are geared properly.
I'm not saying to cut regen or defense or HP out, but you need to find what is the most efficient balance between the stats to maximize potential instead of going straight survivability. This will allow for faster matches and matches where you are in more control of the outcome because you have killing potential rather than just tanking potential. It is a more effective way to play from my experience despite the fact that you will make small survivability sacrifices.
Other than that though, I've been loving mod 2 pvp much more. I don't think much if any changes are needed. Tank GWFs are really the only problem as far as people having trouble taking them out, but from my experience if you have 2 well geared DPS that know what they are doing, it should be no problem. Ice knife, shocking execution, GWF prones, GF prones, or even straight DPS builds for rogues, cw, or hr that neglect survivability in favor of damage all work effectively still against tanks.
Ultimately though, next mod = pvp update. Maybe modes where straight dps instead of survivability will be present or maybe there will be changes to how pvp works in general to make dps more favorable.
Err..bringing up 1v1 fights has no impact on a real PvP environment of 5v5 or more....I guarantee the guy with the tankier build probably does better off in a real match. People are stacking defen/regen/etc because they need to survive multiple people, not one.
As for sacrificing "big damage" for stacking defensively, consider this: The average persons HP pool is probably around 23-24k(unless they specifically stack for hp) and Sent GWF can still drop 6k's, 8k's, 10k shots on someone in succession, what's the point of gearing for more offense?
Father McGruder - Scrub geared DPS DC - I kick HAMSTER for the Lord!
Explosivo - Scrub geared MoF CW - Climb upon my BIG ASSED steed....
I believe the problem here is how people are building their characters rather than an issue with balance. People that go full tank GWFs are intentionally sacrificing a huge damage potential to become this invincible character. The problem is that these people are stacking on minimal effects of extra regen + defense by overloading the stat, instead of switching some of it over for a large offensive boost in comparison. I recently watched 2 of the best GWFs in game that are heavily involved in premades 1v1 eachother. It only took about 3-5 minutes and I saw pots/artifacts popping and in fact, the GWF that was using a tankier setup ended up losing by a decent margin. However, both of these GWFs did use vorpals.
People are looking at this completely wrong. They are trying to make an unkillable build when instead they should be going for the most effective build which results from investing in offensive stats. If you are going to 1v1 someone, is it better to stack an extra 250 defense on a tank for .5% DR, or add 250 arm pen for an additional 2% damage? When it comes down to it, someone who is maximizing their potential with those types of changes will win, but when you have people so focused 1 dimensionally on soely survivability, they are ruining their own potential to be a game changer rather than just a meatshield. Killing someone faster or being able to put pressure on them with damage will be able to help just as much as a little extra survivability if not more. GWFs should be able to smack out 15k+ IBS on other GWFs/GFs/DCs that are tanks when you build it right with small sacrifices to tanking. You are not going to have stalemate GWF vs GWF setups if you are utilizing something like this and are geared properly.
PvP isn't 1v1 though it's 5v5. What those tankier builds do great is go and get everyone jumping on them. The other team sees a gwf at the moment and at least 3 try to attack him. This lets the rest of the team kill the two going at them then burn the remaining 3. Remember kills don't win matches holding points wins matches.
That's the point. If you won't flex the way you spec and gear your class then you can't do everything. I maintain as a sentinel GWF with 4other classes all at 60, that there are plenty of examples of CW, DC, GF and TRs who have specced for PVP and destroyed by GWF. No one mentions the unkillable other classes. Seriously change how you play, don't campaign to homogenise everything so you don't have to work in a PvP environment to get your kills.
Please don't even both with GWF are balanced lol. Because if you play one correctly you know its not, i right click people to death all the time nothing they can do. I rock T1 Gear with a regular vorpal and i'm reasonably tanky as most GWFs but dish out pain too. Soulforge change buffed GWFs a lot. The kicker is Threatening Rush. I was fine with super tanky but stiill hit hard GWF but now they insta charge me, along with more prone's and a prone daily? Please. GWFs were bad enough prepatch but they gave them all the best GF pvp abilities except 1 and their best daily and best at will.
My crappy GWF can give almost anyone a run for their money 9 (aside from better geared GWFs of course lol). Well geared CWs will still get me as I only have Rank 7's and not quite as tanky (plus i'm human of all things, thanks Cryptic for their being only 1 good race in PVP). I'll even give some of the best geared rogues a run for their money. Granted i'll die 90% of the time but i have 7's and a vorpal+soul whereas they need perfect's/R10.
Don't get it twisted lots of classes have their issues but GWFs by far and large are the most OP class in the game. All the other classes are only super OP if Super Geared.
It's actually a whole "network" of multiple problems in various areas that leads to this.
It's not an uncommon thing to see when people flock to "survival builds" in PvP -- traditionally, survival is always very important in PvP no matter what the game, what the genre. However, when too much of the playerbase decide its a good idea (the only viable idea) to go overboard in terms of survival, that usually indicates a problem in the opposite direction.
If so many people flock to tanky builds, that means people are at their "last resort". What this means, is that generally, the damage/CC factor of the game is so devastating and deadly, that every other build is turned obsolete, and it becomes unrealistic to expect any kind of effect (even situationally) with it. Hence, only a tanky build provides enough life-span to at least try push a key or two to make you feel like you're doing something.
Therefore, it is usually an indicator of a failure in balance -- not necessarily between classes or powers, but rather (and more likely) a failure to balance the mechanics of defense vs. offense. In PvP, people min/max builds. That's to be expected. But if the min/maxing that effects offense/defense provides too high a level of synergy, as compared to a more 'casual build', then that directly leads to the said problem.
So, it all comes down to this.
What this means, is that the 'balance' you people want is hardly achieved by just nerfing or buffing a class or a power. What this means, is that each and every one of you need to accept the hard fact that the aspect you are most proud of, and love about your own character, may be one of what's contributing to the problem mentioned above.
- Do you love your 20k crit ranged attack that one-shots average gear grade players?
- Do you love how your tanky character can wield over 10% lifesteal with average 3~4k damage per attack, coupled with an over 10% regeneration efficiency, so a little bit of defensive maneuvering and you basically roll back on all of your HP lost?
- Do you love how you can control someone back-to-back and never give them a chance to fire back until all of your powers are on cooldown?
Well ALL of that, will ultimately lead people to figure that its impossible to compete with any other build option, and therefore, will cause them to also roll an FotM tank/regen/lifesteal build.
Everyone is an accomplice to this crime. That's the reason why people cry of balance, but in reality there's no real balancing done ever. People actually hate balance. I've never seen anyone who'd agree to seriously nerf what they love so much about their own character. They talk of change and balance, and the moment it involves themselves, they turn defensive and walk away.
Since no one wants to sacrifice themselves a little bit for the "greater good", there is no "greater good" to be achieved.
Personally, I'm an adapter. I don't really care how developers change my favorite class. If something gets nerfed, then I simply adapt to that fact, so in my case, if it brings better balance and more fun to the game where more people can enjoy, then I'd not object against it. However, I cannot say the same for other people, and I seriously doubt much of them would want to see such a 'bigger picture.'
They like their tanky regen buillds. They don't really care that it makes the game frustrating. As long as they have the "Buwahahahaah I love being near-unkillable!" mindset, nothing's going to be changed.
This person really nailed it. I dont want to get into a nerf X or buff X type of game, but from my experience this short list is what I would start balancing (atleast for pvp)
- Vorpal (or just crit damage in general). This is what creates the massive crits that ends up 1 shotting people. When you have abilities that get 100% crit chance or feats that give 10%+ in crit chance, its no wonder people are getting these massive crits VERY often.
When you have Sents running with 40% crit because of feats, HRs with 40%+ crit with feats, TRs with 50% crit etc... It all becomes FAR too common for massive crits...
- Unstoppable - Needs a re-work. The more I think about it, instead of CC immunity, just CC resist instead.
- Prone times on certain abilities - Bull rush for one, has WAY too much air time.
- attacking from stealth - just needs a balance to its harder to attack while in stealth without it draining.
- Sent GWF Tree - Sent Aegis is too strong, the feats are too powerful.
Other games have run into these similar issues and have implemented things LIKE resilience (less damage and less crit chance)
Or things like Diminishing returns on stuns/CC
The big problem is to change/balance PVP would require some balancing act for PVE as well which is a very tough cookie to do...
I dont know how many see the "resilience" stat they havnt taken off the t1 pvp CW chest or the HR helm, my complete guess is they are adding resilience to pvp gear.
Who knows what it will do, and maybe it will help pvp... But there are still MASSIVE issues with the game... I love the game and hope it succeeds, but it has alot to do.
Err..bringing up 1v1 fights has no impact on a real PvP environment of 5v5 or more....I guarantee the guy with the tankier build probably does better off in a real match. People are stacking defen/regen/etc because they need to survive multiple people, not one.
As for sacrificing "big damage" for stacking defensively, consider this: The average persons HP pool is probably around 23-24k(unless they specifically stack for hp) and Sent GWF can still drop 6k's, 8k's, 10k shots on someone in succession, what's the point of gearing for more offense?
in fact most well geared Sents can hit 20k+ with IBS, 10k+ with Takedown and Frontline. It's not magic. I prone you and do a 3 button rotation and most of the time your dead unless you get lucky and i don't crit. The real issue with Sents now (aside from free stats from Artifacts) is that you can't get away from them no matter what.
This person really nailed it. I dont want to get into a nerf X or buff X type of game, but from my experience this short list is what I would start balancing (atleast for pvp)
- Vorpal (or just crit damage in general). This is what creates the massive crits that ends up 1 shotting people. When you have abilities that get 100% crit chance or feats that give 10%+ in crit chance, its no wonder people are getting these massive crits VERY often.
When you have Sents running with 40% crit because of feats, HRs with 40%+ crit with feats, TRs with 50% crit etc... It all becomes FAR too common for massive crits...
- Unstoppable - Needs a re-work. The more I think about it, instead of CC immunity, just CC resist instead.
- Prone times on certain abilities - Bull rush for one, has WAY too much air time.
- attacking from stealth - just needs a balance to its harder to attack while in stealth without it draining.
- Sent GWF Tree - Sent Aegis is too strong, the feats are too powerful.
Other games have run into these similar issues and have implemented things LIKE resilience (less damage and less crit chance)
Or things like Diminishing returns on stuns/CC
The big problem is to change/balance PVP would require some balancing act for PVE as well which is a very tough cookie to do...
I dont know how many see the "resilience" stat they havnt taken off the t1 pvp CW chest or the HR helm, my complete guess is they are adding resilience to pvp gear.
Who knows what it will do, and maybe it will help pvp... But there are still MASSIVE issues with the game... I love the game and hope it succeeds, but it has alot to do.
^ This. The problem from the very start is that everyone just gets 1-shot. There is no skill in hitting a button and the other guy crumbling to the ground. Sorry i accidentally killed you by hitting Q. Thus DCs/Tanks/GWF/Rogues/HR's and to an extent CW's all decided the only way to PvP is go Halfling and stack dex/con for every class every situation. This went well with Tene's which of course led to them being nerfed. I sincerely hope we get some sort of idea of what their plan is soon because it's getting harder and harder to login.
Going to answer some of this in sections because your ideas would be a death sentence for gwf's in pve and you might as well delete the class at that point.
- Unstoppable - Needs a re-work. The more I think about it, instead of CC immunity, just CC resist instead.
Here's the problem that cc immunity is needed in pve. GWF has no dodge and no block, that means they're going to get hit in pve, and without timing unstoppable to be cc immune GWF would not be able to contribute to many fights. This would kill the class in pve.
- Prone times on certain abilities - Bull rush for one, has WAY too much air time.
most of the prones can easily be dodge by good players though, it's only during a fake out etc, that they normally connect. While diminishing returns might work in pvp, I really don't see this as so much of an issue as it is what pvp is, dodging the other players cc while hitting your own.
- attacking from stealth - just needs a balance to its harder to attack while in stealth without it draining.
The problem isn't stealth per say. There are ways to deal with stealth. The problem is the crits tr's hit while in stealth. vorpals need to be nerfed or not apply in pvp.
- Sent GWF Tree - Sent Aegis is too strong, the feats are too powerful.
Those feats are what allow GWF to survive a pounding as a tank in pve. They are 100% perfect for pve and should not be changed, the main problem seems to be people that don't even have the 24% arp for pve complaining about not hitting gwfs or any high def toon for full damage. You have to overstack arp to get full effect in pvp on a gwf or gf. That's the nature of the class that you are fighting. Trying to nerf defense in this way is like saying cw's should have to be in melee range to cast, for every spell.
There's no separation of casual vs hardcore PVP so I don't do much of it. In WoW the casual players like me would do battlegrounds and the hardcore would do arenas or ranked battlegrounds. However, in this game there's the min-maxer hardcore experts vs beginners and casuals so there's little point to even queue. The one time I queued for pvp (because it looked neat when I watched a stream) we ended up losing after about 10 minutes or maybe longer and all I got was 8 glory; it isn't like I was afk in the area either. I killed about 5 and died about 10 times and got maybe 10 assists. So for one piece of the cheapest glory gear I would need to play 400+ matches if I got those same scores? I'll stick to PVE.
The only way I would ever PVP again is if they get some kind of ranked queue to seperate hardcore pvp from the casual battleground players AND the glory would have to be worth my time, even if I lose. As of right now, if you don't win then the super low glory is not worth staying in the match so people leave.
There's no separation of casual vs hardcore PVP so I don't do much of it. In WoW the casual players like me would do battlegrounds and the hardcore would do arenas or ranked battlegrounds. However, in this game there's the min-maxer hardcore experts vs beginners and casuals so there's little point to even queue. The one time I queued for pvp (because it looked neat when I watched a stream) we ended up losing after about 10 minutes or maybe longer and all I got was 8 glory; it isn't like I was afk in the area either. I killed about 5 and died about 10 times and got maybe 10 assists. So for one piece of the cheapest glory gear I would need to play 400+ matches if I got those same scores? I'll stick to PVE.
The only way I would ever PVP again is if they get some kind of ranked queue to seperate hardcore pvp from the casual battleground players AND the glory would have to be worth my time, even if I lose. As of right now, if you don't win then the super low glory is not worth staying in the match so people leave.
Sounds like you lost the match in a low level pvp match. Level 60 rewards more even for a loss as long as you have scored at least 500 pts iirc.
Sounds like you lost the match in a low level pvp match. Level 60 rewards more even for a loss as long as you have scored at least 500 pts iirc.
Getting 150 glory only because the other team was nice enough to let you get some caps to make the points because it was 5v1 within the first 45-60 seconds isn' t much better heh.
Father McGruder - Scrub geared DPS DC - I kick HAMSTER for the Lord!
Explosivo - Scrub geared MoF CW - Climb upon my BIG ASSED steed....
Getting 150 glory only because the other team was nice enough to let you get some caps to make the points because it was 5v1 within the first 45-60 seconds isn' t much better heh.
5v1 isn't much fun, but that is a different discussion, what I'm talking about is that 1-200 is miles better than 8.
We are talking about 2 nearly identical maps with the same exact goals: make the nodes blue, contest nodes that are red. In a totally different environment the GWF would not be be nearly as powerful. Even the maps as they are, any cc + shard + pretty much anything else (chill strike?) and that is a killed GWF. People are learning how to deal with these.
And maybe I am just a nub scrub, but I don't mind my toon dying if it means I helped my team cap an important node at a crucial part of the match. Shift+2 and 3 seconds later you are right back in there. If the spawn points were set far away from the nodes it would be a bigger deal. I really think sheer speed is just as important as tankiness.
All the classes have something incredible to offer, and aside from some unbalances which are exaggerated on the forums, there is a degree of parity. The point is to work together, every class has something special to contribute. Saying the game has become a game of attrition (due to specific classes being too tanky) tells me that maybe people are not being very creative in how they approach the match as a team. It tells me the focus has become more on the individual than the team. It is not difficult to force unstoppable without even touching a node, then when that goes into cd, burst the toon off the map.
BTW playing gwf is not "easy", you really really have to keep track of what the other team is doing. Can't go chasing for the second shot of that two-shot kill because if you do you just got kited off node while a hr and cw jump on the node and blast away at you ad just after your procs are in cd and your health bar is way down here comes the red team gwf with a full bar. You get focused hard and really when your playing gwf you are essentially fighting the entire other team all the time.
You get focused hard and really when your playing gwf you are essentially fighting the entire other team all the time.
Mostly this, though I had a match where everytime I ran to a node to contest them capping it tonight on my gwf, instead of 3-4 vs 1 on me they scattered and went to try to cap another node that my pug mates were, well I'm not sure what they were doing, but you get the idea. It was like watching Monty Python, "RUN AWAY!"
We are talking about 2 nearly identical maps with the same exact goals: make the nodes blue, contest nodes that are red. In a totally different environment the GWF would not be be nearly as powerful. Even the maps as they are, any cc + shard + pretty much anything else (chill strike?) and that is a killed GWF. People are learning how to deal with these.
And maybe I am just a nub scrub, but I don't mind my toon dying if it means I helped my team cap an important node at a crucial part of the match. Shift+2 and 3 seconds later you are right back in there. If the spawn points were set far away from the nodes it would be a bigger deal. I really think sheer speed is just as important as tankiness.
All the classes have something incredible to offer, and aside from some unbalances which are exaggerated on the forums, there is a degree of parity. The point is to work together, every class has something special to contribute. Saying the game has become a game of attrition (due to specific classes being too tanky) tells me that maybe people are not being very creative in how they approach the match as a team. It tells me the focus has become more on the individual than the team. It is not difficult to force unstoppable without even touching a node, then when that goes into cd, burst the toon off the map.
BTW playing gwf is not "easy", you really really have to keep track of what the other team is doing. Can't go chasing for the second shot of that two-shot kill because if you do you just got kited off node while a hr and cw jump on the node and blast away at you ad just after your procs are in cd and your health bar is way down here comes the red team gwf with a full bar. You get focused hard and really when your playing gwf you are essentially fighting the entire other team all the time.
I don't see how anything you said is "hard" and only applies to GWF...try playing a CW with half the defense usually and no get out of jail free for 10-15 seconds damage reduction/cc immunity(save for annoying rubber band roots).
Hilariously enough, I probably die to other CW's and TR's/HR's on my CW than I do to GWF's. That being said, trying to get a tanky GWF off a node that hes solo capping can be a lesson in frustration and ridiculousness.
I agree though that different modes might help alleviate the woes, right now being a tanky regening beast like a GWF is great for a tiny map with take and hold points. If the map was twice as long it might not be so bad either. Then of course the pay to win disparity between those who bought an epic mount and those who didn't would come into play even more heh.
Father McGruder - Scrub geared DPS DC - I kick HAMSTER for the Lord!
Explosivo - Scrub geared MoF CW - Climb upon my BIG ASSED steed....
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prochargedgtoMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 2Arc User
I don't see how anything you said is "hard" and only applies to GWF...try playing a CW with half the defense usually and no get out of jail free for 10-15 seconds damage reduction/cc immunity(save for annoying rubber band roots).
Hilariously enough, I probably die to other CW's and TR's/HR's on my CW than I do to GWF's. That being said, trying to get a tanky GWF off a node that hes solo capping can be a lesson in frustration and ridiculousness.
I agree though that different modes might help alleviate the woes, right now being a tanky regening beast like a GWF is great for a tiny map with take and hold points. If the map was twice as long it might not be so bad either. Then of course the pay to win disparity between those who bought an epic mount and those who didn't would come into play even more heh.
It does not only apply to gwf, my point was that the class is not easier than other classes to play. My main is a CW and it is a toss up on which I enjoy playing more. Playing my gwf the true nemesis is a good cw. Dodged. Dodged. Guess what? Dodged. And oh, btw there is a giant purple-red shard that is going to blow up in a second right behind your head.
Comments
I believe decreasing the weight of defensive stats/mechanics will lead for more intense and shorter fights.
GWFs do deserve special mention in PVP. The very concept of a DPS Tank is just bad for business for PVP. Cryptic has been on point with the concept but it just works too well in the PVP environment. GWFs is all rock, scissor and paper.
Nonetheless, PVP in NWO I feel is a value add. THis game been designed to be PVE with a touch of PVP thrown in for depth.
There's been mention or rumors of a PVP module. No official word but I reckon with the present foundation we have for PVP, it will largely not fix most of the issues plaguing NWO PVP. (If one who call them issues in the first place)
My 0.02 AD worth of thoughts.
That's fine though, I was just trying to correct the whole "the average match is 45+ mins" because that part wasn't true at all.
Disagree completely. GWF are balanced, and only the sentinel tree is great for PVP. As discussed in other posts sacrifices are made elsewhere for a GWF to be great in PvP, and also the same is true for other classes. I've been up against unkillable players from every other class. Don't come in here and whine that your PvE glass cannon build gets broken by another player specked for PvP. Instead why don't you respec to one of the PvP viable trees that ALL classes have, alter the balance of your gear a little and have some fun?
Because people don't want to spend 300 zen everytime they want to play something? Same reason people are probably complaining that GWF Sentinel spec isn't good in PvE and are told to go "respec to Swordmaster." This applies to all classes, a PvP super control oriented CW wouldn't do as good as a PvE based one in a dungeon.
Sentinel is TOO suited for PvP, they tank on par with an actual tank(GF) but can still deliver damage on par with a DPS class(maybe 1-3k less a hit but that's usually just overkill damage anyway).
Can I kill GWF's with my scrubby CW? Yeah if you give me 2 minutes and lots of space to constantly run because I spend at least 50% of the fight just running and trying to stay away waiting for unstoppable to wear off. Not always a doable thing.
Explosivo - Scrub geared MoF CW - Climb upon my BIG ASSED steed....
That's the point. If you won't flex the way you spec and gear your class then you can't do everything. I maintain as a sentinel GWF with 4other classes all at 60, that there are plenty of examples of CW, DC, GF and TRs who have specced for PVP and destroyed by GWF. No one mentions the unkillable other classes. Seriously change how you play, don't campaign to homogenise everything so you don't have to work in a PvP environment to get your kills.
People are looking at this completely wrong. They are trying to make an unkillable build when instead they should be going for the most effective build which results from investing in offensive stats. If you are going to 1v1 someone, is it better to stack an extra 250 defense on a tank for .5% DR, or add 250 arm pen for an additional 2% damage? When it comes down to it, someone who is maximizing their potential with those types of changes will win, but when you have people so focused 1 dimensionally on soely survivability, they are ruining their own potential to be a game changer rather than just a meatshield. Killing someone faster or being able to put pressure on them with damage will be able to help just as much as a little extra survivability if not more. GWFs should be able to smack out 15k+ IBS on other GWFs/GFs/DCs that are tanks when you build it right with small sacrifices to tanking. You are not going to have stalemate GWF vs GWF setups if you are utilizing something like this and are geared properly.
I'm not saying to cut regen or defense or HP out, but you need to find what is the most efficient balance between the stats to maximize potential instead of going straight survivability. This will allow for faster matches and matches where you are in more control of the outcome because you have killing potential rather than just tanking potential. It is a more effective way to play from my experience despite the fact that you will make small survivability sacrifices.
Other than that though, I've been loving mod 2 pvp much more. I don't think much if any changes are needed. Tank GWFs are really the only problem as far as people having trouble taking them out, but from my experience if you have 2 well geared DPS that know what they are doing, it should be no problem. Ice knife, shocking execution, GWF prones, GF prones, or even straight DPS builds for rogues, cw, or hr that neglect survivability in favor of damage all work effectively still against tanks.
Ultimately though, next mod = pvp update. Maybe modes where straight dps instead of survivability will be present or maybe there will be changes to how pvp works in general to make dps more favorable.
Err..bringing up 1v1 fights has no impact on a real PvP environment of 5v5 or more....I guarantee the guy with the tankier build probably does better off in a real match. People are stacking defen/regen/etc because they need to survive multiple people, not one.
As for sacrificing "big damage" for stacking defensively, consider this: The average persons HP pool is probably around 23-24k(unless they specifically stack for hp) and Sent GWF can still drop 6k's, 8k's, 10k shots on someone in succession, what's the point of gearing for more offense?
Explosivo - Scrub geared MoF CW - Climb upon my BIG ASSED steed....
PvP isn't 1v1 though it's 5v5. What those tankier builds do great is go and get everyone jumping on them. The other team sees a gwf at the moment and at least 3 try to attack him. This lets the rest of the team kill the two going at them then burn the remaining 3. Remember kills don't win matches holding points wins matches.
Please don't even both with GWF are balanced lol. Because if you play one correctly you know its not, i right click people to death all the time nothing they can do. I rock T1 Gear with a regular vorpal and i'm reasonably tanky as most GWFs but dish out pain too. Soulforge change buffed GWFs a lot. The kicker is Threatening Rush. I was fine with super tanky but stiill hit hard GWF but now they insta charge me, along with more prone's and a prone daily? Please. GWFs were bad enough prepatch but they gave them all the best GF pvp abilities except 1 and their best daily and best at will.
My crappy GWF can give almost anyone a run for their money 9 (aside from better geared GWFs of course lol). Well geared CWs will still get me as I only have Rank 7's and not quite as tanky (plus i'm human of all things, thanks Cryptic for their being only 1 good race in PVP). I'll even give some of the best geared rogues a run for their money. Granted i'll die 90% of the time but i have 7's and a vorpal+soul whereas they need perfect's/R10.
Don't get it twisted lots of classes have their issues but GWFs by far and large are the most OP class in the game. All the other classes are only super OP if Super Geared.
This person really nailed it. I dont want to get into a nerf X or buff X type of game, but from my experience this short list is what I would start balancing (atleast for pvp)
- Vorpal (or just crit damage in general). This is what creates the massive crits that ends up 1 shotting people. When you have abilities that get 100% crit chance or feats that give 10%+ in crit chance, its no wonder people are getting these massive crits VERY often.
When you have Sents running with 40% crit because of feats, HRs with 40%+ crit with feats, TRs with 50% crit etc... It all becomes FAR too common for massive crits...
- Unstoppable - Needs a re-work. The more I think about it, instead of CC immunity, just CC resist instead.
- Prone times on certain abilities - Bull rush for one, has WAY too much air time.
- attacking from stealth - just needs a balance to its harder to attack while in stealth without it draining.
- Sent GWF Tree - Sent Aegis is too strong, the feats are too powerful.
Other games have run into these similar issues and have implemented things LIKE resilience (less damage and less crit chance)
Or things like Diminishing returns on stuns/CC
The big problem is to change/balance PVP would require some balancing act for PVE as well which is a very tough cookie to do...
I dont know how many see the "resilience" stat they havnt taken off the t1 pvp CW chest or the HR helm, my complete guess is they are adding resilience to pvp gear.
Who knows what it will do, and maybe it will help pvp... But there are still MASSIVE issues with the game... I love the game and hope it succeeds, but it has alot to do.
in fact most well geared Sents can hit 20k+ with IBS, 10k+ with Takedown and Frontline. It's not magic. I prone you and do a 3 button rotation and most of the time your dead unless you get lucky and i don't crit. The real issue with Sents now (aside from free stats from Artifacts) is that you can't get away from them no matter what.
^ This. The problem from the very start is that everyone just gets 1-shot. There is no skill in hitting a button and the other guy crumbling to the ground. Sorry i accidentally killed you by hitting Q. Thus DCs/Tanks/GWF/Rogues/HR's and to an extent CW's all decided the only way to PvP is go Halfling and stack dex/con for every class every situation. This went well with Tene's which of course led to them being nerfed. I sincerely hope we get some sort of idea of what their plan is soon because it's getting harder and harder to login.
The only way I would ever PVP again is if they get some kind of ranked queue to seperate hardcore pvp from the casual battleground players AND the glory would have to be worth my time, even if I lose. As of right now, if you don't win then the super low glory is not worth staying in the match so people leave.
Getting 150 glory only because the other team was nice enough to let you get some caps to make the points because it was 5v1 within the first 45-60 seconds isn' t much better heh.
Explosivo - Scrub geared MoF CW - Climb upon my BIG ASSED steed....
5v1 isn't much fun, but that is a different discussion, what I'm talking about is that 1-200 is miles better than 8.
And maybe I am just a nub scrub, but I don't mind my toon dying if it means I helped my team cap an important node at a crucial part of the match. Shift+2 and 3 seconds later you are right back in there. If the spawn points were set far away from the nodes it would be a bigger deal. I really think sheer speed is just as important as tankiness.
All the classes have something incredible to offer, and aside from some unbalances which are exaggerated on the forums, there is a degree of parity. The point is to work together, every class has something special to contribute. Saying the game has become a game of attrition (due to specific classes being too tanky) tells me that maybe people are not being very creative in how they approach the match as a team. It tells me the focus has become more on the individual than the team. It is not difficult to force unstoppable without even touching a node, then when that goes into cd, burst the toon off the map.
BTW playing gwf is not "easy", you really really have to keep track of what the other team is doing. Can't go chasing for the second shot of that two-shot kill because if you do you just got kited off node while a hr and cw jump on the node and blast away at you ad just after your procs are in cd and your health bar is way down here comes the red team gwf with a full bar. You get focused hard and really when your playing gwf you are essentially fighting the entire other team all the time.
Jugger Conq GF
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Mostly this, though I had a match where everytime I ran to a node to contest them capping it tonight on my gwf, instead of 3-4 vs 1 on me they scattered and went to try to cap another node that my pug mates were, well I'm not sure what they were doing, but you get the idea. It was like watching Monty Python, "RUN AWAY!"
The longer the better. What did you think would happen when you created your unkillable char ?
I don't see how anything you said is "hard" and only applies to GWF...try playing a CW with half the defense usually and no get out of jail free for 10-15 seconds damage reduction/cc immunity(save for annoying rubber band roots).
Hilariously enough, I probably die to other CW's and TR's/HR's on my CW than I do to GWF's. That being said, trying to get a tanky GWF off a node that hes solo capping can be a lesson in frustration and ridiculousness.
I agree though that different modes might help alleviate the woes, right now being a tanky regening beast like a GWF is great for a tiny map with take and hold points. If the map was twice as long it might not be so bad either. Then of course the pay to win disparity between those who bought an epic mount and those who didn't would come into play even more heh.
Explosivo - Scrub geared MoF CW - Climb upon my BIG ASSED steed....
It does not only apply to gwf, my point was that the class is not easier than other classes to play. My main is a CW and it is a toss up on which I enjoy playing more. Playing my gwf the true nemesis is a good cw. Dodged. Dodged. Guess what? Dodged. And oh, btw there is a giant purple-red shard that is going to blow up in a second right behind your head.
Jugger Conq GF
....