Trickster Rogue vs. Great Weapon Fighter comparison

twinkje · December 2013

I'm going to post the parsed combat log detailing GWF vs TR DPS debate.

This is a PvE Discussion, it's not about PvP.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Au5bHNJgcCe9dDJjN0NUMDlHalctQTNaMzhobEpjNHc&usp=drive_web#gid=0

Twinkie: http://gateway.playneverwinter.com/#char%28Twinkie@twinkje%29/charactersheet
Halo: http://gateway.playneverwinter.com/#char%28Halo@halonuva%29/charactersheet

GWF has the same single target DPS of a better geared TR (Perfect Vorpal vs. Greater Vorpal, rank 8/9 vs rank 6/7, etc.).

I'm going to add more combat log in the next days.

Edit
From the spreadsheet you can clearly get where that huge DPS comes from.

saved81 · December 2013

[QUOTE=twinkje;6898471
[cut]
From the spreadsheet you can clearly get where those huge DPS comes from.[/QUOTE]
33% dmg just from deep gash with just a greater vorpal and not even a purple dancing blade ftw.

Someone still thinks that it is working as intended?

stoxforum1 · December 2013

The GWFs in the game believe it is working as intended. In their class forum I provided an example and the math to show it most definitely is not.

i.e. 1 hit with 1375 power should do 206.25 damage, even if I count all the buffs / debuffs etc that I'm not even sure should actually affect this feat, the most I could come up with was 465.5 damage. Actual damage done was 2700...

Unless I'm looking at that spreadsheet incorrectly, deep gash on those 2 targets was 44.14% of the GWFs overall damage.

pando83 · December 2013

Deep Gash is buffed by Vorpal. 38% of his DG damage come from the enchant.
CWs can make single target DPS comparable to TRs and GWFs. HRs can do even better. Yet, you say "GWF is the new DPS king", which is false.

And you QQ a lot for both PvP and PvE. And specifically about GWFs.

Also: GWF is not "the most tanky class". The GWF sentinel regeneration tank is the most tanky BUILD for PvP. For PvE ANY GF can tank better than GWFs.

I've ran MC with TRs that could keep up with both CWs and GWFs damage.

Damage depends not just on equipment or gear score, but on build, rotation and playstyle too.
Pretty sure your data regarding your TR and one GWF is more reliable than the tons of datas devs collect every day, but i still think that if there's something wrong with the class, they'll notice.

Deep gash now takes into account armor pen, defense debuffs and buffs. If i got it right. From my point of view, it IS wroking as intended. It is a destroyer feat. And destroyers is the DPS tree.

Sure 44% is a lot. If that's the case, it will probably get nerfed soon.

twinkje · December 2013

pando83 wrote: »

Deep Gash is buffed by Vorpal. 38% of his DG damage come from the enchant.
CWs can make single target DPS comparable to TRs and GWFs. HRs can do even better. Yet, you say "GWF is the new DPS king", which is false.

And you QQ a lot for both PvP and PvE. And specifically about GWFs.

Also: GWF is not "the most tanky class". The GWF sentinel regeneration tank is the most tanky BUILD for PvP. For PvE ANY GF can tank better than GWFs.

I've ran MC with TRs that could keep up with both CWs and GWFs damage.

Damage depends not just on equipment or gear score, but on build, rotation and playstyle too.
Pretty sure your data regarding your TR and one GWF is more reliable than the tons of datas devs collect every day, but i still think that if there's something wrong with the class, they'll notice.

First of all, I don't really understand why the bleed from Deep Gash is supposed to have 100% crit chance (I edited the spreadsheet in order to make it clearer).
Second, you have to provide the number about your statement. Before module 2 I've never seen a CW able to dish out the same single target DPS of an equally geared/skilled player. I'm not the one that likes to talk about thin air therefore, once again provide the numbers, if you want to contribute to this thread.

But for the sake of completeness I'm providing a combat log with Lashing Blade instead of Wicked Reminder.

But just to make it clear: I run with a purple Blink Dog (+5% combat advantage), purple Dancing Blade (+5% crit severity), squash soup (+5% crit severity), Major Flask of Potency (+7,5% crit severity) while the GWF only had a green blink dog and a blue dancing blade.

There's no rogue (actually no one) in my guild that can outdps me (rare exceptions aside) in that particular boss fight even when I run with wicked reminder.

esteena · December 2013

Basically i don't know why he is using a daily that depends on the % of missing health of the target, if he could use lurker Assault that would give him perma stealth + 25% damage boost? not to mention the steroids he will get for doing DF rotations in combat advantage while he is perma stealthed for 8 seconds..

Now for impact shot...it has a slow animation, and you need to cast the 3 charges of them with crits to have a nice damage out put.

Not sure why use that encounter if you can use a stlealthed lashing blade in between your DF rotations ( Note that LB has 100% crit chance from stealth)

Also, i have just checked his sheet. If we exclude the heroic feat Disciple of Strength, he has very low STR (15) that means that his % of damage increase is only 6% compared to an average TR with 21+ SRT (11% damage increase).

I pretty confident he can out DPS the GWF on single target if he spec his TR properly for PvE, from what i saw on his gateway, he is PvP roll.

pando83 · December 2013

Deep gash does not hit for 16k in PvP. it's affected by DR, so it's a lot less. Same goes for IBS.
Also, to note, IBS in PvP can be used only if you prone the target first, else it's so slow that it will never land (over 1 second animation for IBS).

@twinkje: you think your numbers based on 2 chars are instead the proof that GWFs are the DPS kings? I've read countless opinions of people saying CWs do more damage, HRs do more damage exc... Each experience is different. Why you think that yours is the TRUTH, is Beyond me.

Damage is not directly related to gear score. Playstyle and build make the damage too. And a big part. Even with your data you don't have what it takes to claim what you wrote in the OP. Cause for one of your datas, you can find other players who tested/ ran dungeons and got different results with different players/ builds/ playstyles.

About deep gash: as i said, it's buffed by the vorpal enchant. Which means that the damage you talk about, comes for at least 25% (you wrote GV for the GWF, which means 38% more critical severity, which means 38% more damage for deep gash) from the enchant. A GWF with a different enchant would deal less damage from deep gash. A lot less.

Seems to me that even with all your data you're not taking into account too many things.

I'll leave to other TRs the discussion about your rotation and the powers you use, which is another thing you didn't take into account when comparing the damage of the 2 classes.

Gear is not everything.

twinkje · December 2013

esteena wrote: »

Basically i don't know why he is using a daily that depends on the % of missing health of the target, if he could use lurker Assault that would give him perma stealth + 25% damage boost? not to mention the steroids he will get for doing DF rotations in combat advantage while he is perma stealthed for 8 seconds..

Now for impact shot...it has a slow animation, and you need to cast the 3 charges of them with crits to have a nice damage out put.

Not sure why use that encounter if you can use a stlealthed lashing blade in between your DF rotations ( Note that LB has 100% crit chance from stealth)

I don't think you have checked the combat log with the proper attention because we already had 100% combat advantage uptime because of "not so fast" + "nightmare wizardry". Lurker Assault wouldn't have given me that much of a boost because I had to maintain the Wicked Reminder stacks therefore I could not stay stealthed for that long. And I had Impact Shot because it has the best AP gain (way better than LB now that recovery works on charged powers as well and I'm not even saying anything about dazzling blades) and it works better with Invisible Infiltrator. On top of that Impact Shot is more reliable when the boss goes on bloobath.
I use to use Whirlwind of Blades when there are mobs around me or Shocking Execution for the Devastating Shroud feat when I can confidently hit the boss.

esteena · December 2013

twinkje wrote: »

I don't think you have checked the combat log with the proper attention because we already had 100% combat advantage uptime because of "not so fast" + "nightmare wizardry". Lurker Assault wouldn't have given me that much of a boost because I had to maintain the Wicked Reminder stacks therefore I could not stay stealthed for that long. And I had Impact Shot because it has the best AP gain (way better than LB now that recovery works on charged powers as well and I'm not even saying anything about dazzling blades) and it works better with Invisible Infiltrator. On top of that Impact Shot is more reliable when the boss goes on bloobath.
I use to use Whirlwind of Blades when there are mobs around me or Shocking Execution for the Devastating Shroud feat when I can confidently hit the boss.

I don't think you realize the benefit you get for your DPS when you do your attacks inside stealth and outside stealth check BrutalBackstab Feat and Cunning Ambusher and Scoundrel Training.

5 Stacks of WR gives you 25% damage boost, LA daily gives you 25% damage boost + perma stealth for 8 seconds. Not sure why you ditched it for WR. I usually maintain the stacks while i'm out side of LA, when i'm in LA i only use DF till the LA duration ends then i do a stealthed WR to get 3 stacks back.

In that fight a good Lashing blade can send the boss back to his armor instantly (especially if you do it from LA), way better DPS than standing still doing 3 impact shot charges and btw lashing blade has a base AP gain equal to 8% of the orange crystal.

Edit: I do agree that deep gash isn't matching the description on the tool tip. From some tests i did with fellow GWFs it seems to be increased by 1200%+ without any debuffs around aside from the student of the sword xD.

However, it shouldn't cause GWFs to out DPS TRs on single target...because GWF need to crit to activate it...while TR DF can bleed 24/7 and the bleed values from DF > bleed values from Deep gash.

twinkje · December 2013

esteena wrote: »

Also, i have just checked his sheet. If we exclude the heroic feat Disciple of Strength, he has very low STR (15) that means that his % of damage increase is only 6% compared to an average TR with 21+ SRT (11% damage increase).

I pretty confident he can out DPS the GWF on single target if he spec his TR properly for PvE, from what i saw on his gateway, he is PvP roll.

Since I was under 100% combat advantage it wouldn't have made any difference even if I was strength. Disciple of Strength, which I have, is a plain 6% more damage no matter how much strength I have.
And unfortunately, despite a not so optimal first roll, I'm not even properly specced for PvP. I simply specced for PvE with Charisma instead of Strength because I don't like half-orcs.

esteena wrote: »

I don't think you realize the benefit you get for your DPS when you do your attacks inside stealth and outside stealth check BrutalBackstab Feat and Cunning Ambusher and Scoundrel Training.

5 Stacks of WR gives you 25% damage boost, LA daily gives you 25% damage boost + perma stealth for 8 seconds. Not sure why you ditched it for WR. I usually maintain the stacks while i'm out side of LA, when i'm in LA i only use DF till the LA duration ends then i do a stealthed WR to get 3 stacks back.

In that fight a good Lashing blade can send the boss back to his armor instantly (especially if you do it from LA), way better DPS than standing still doing 3 impact shot charges and btw lashing blade has a base AP gain equal to 8% of the orange crystal.

Edit: I do agree that deep gash isn't matching the description on the tool tip. From some tests i did with fellow GWFs it seems to be increased by 1200%+ without any debuffs around aside from the student of the sword xD.

However, it shouldn't cause GWFs to out DPS TRs on single target...because GWF need to crit to activate it...while TR DF can bleed 24/7 and the bleed values from DF > bleed values from Deep gash.

Cunning Ambusher has nothing to do with Lurker Assault and it works wonder with Invisible Infiltrator. Scoundrel Training was always active anyway because the boss was constantly targeting our good GF.

Lurker Assault is +25% crit severity/damage for 10 seconds (not 8) while Devastating Shroud is 10% crit chance + crit severity for 6 seconds + 1 big hit (Shocking Execution) going from 20k to 180k (I'm actually not that good with it because I don't call all the buffs/debuffs from my party members). That 10% crit chance is about 15% more damage because I'm usually at 142.5-157.5% crit severity (depending on how many stacks of deadly momentum I can retain).
With all of this numbers in mind I dropped LA (my favourite Daily by far) after the module 2, when they ninja nerfed it so that you cannot use 2 encounter from stealth anymore.

Impact Shot is a 6.5% AP (10s cd) gain while Lashing Blade is 10% (16.9s cd). Lashing Blade is slightly better in terms of DPS (334 vs 306) but it works worse with dazzling blade. Impact Shot nicely clips with wicked reminder and its animation is not slower than Lashing Balde.
Impact Shot is not all-or-nothing and you can better manage its charges during the flow of the fight than what you can do with just 1 big hit than can possibly overkill.

mehguy138 · December 2013

Deep Gash is kinda broken, it deals % of damage dealt by ability that caused DG effect on initial hit. For example, if GWF strikes with IBS for 15k, DG will deal 3k damage right after. So, every critical hit deals an additional damage with DG.

P.S. Buffed Deep Gash is way OP now.

esteena · December 2013

twinkje wrote: »

Since I was under 100% combat advantage it wouldn't have made any difference even if I was strength. Disciple of Strength, which I have, is a plain 6% more damage no matter how much strength I have.
And unfortunately, despite a not so optimal first roll, I'm not even properly specced for PvP. I simply specced for PvE with Charisma instead of Strength because I don't like half-orcs.

The bonus you get from Charisma isn't additive. The X % bonus you get from it stack multiplicatively with the % of the CA you have. So you get maximum of 1.6~2% of extra DPS while you are in CA from the CHA bonus. Here is the formula:

Combat Advantage Damage = AbilitiesDamage*(1+0.15*(1+StatBonus))

And that's why STR>CHA.

twinkje wrote: »

Cunning Ambusher has nothing to do with Lurker Assault and it works wonder with Invisible Infiltrator. Scoundrel Training was always active anyway because the boss was constantly targeting our good GF.

Never said it was, but it is a nice damage boost when you get out of stealth.

twinkje wrote: »

Lurker Assault is +25% crit severity/damage for 10 seconds (not 8) while Devastating Shroud is 10% crit chance + crit severity for 6 seconds + 1 big hit (Shocking Execution) going from 20k to 180k (I'm actually not that good with it because I don't call all the buffs/debuffs from my party members). That 10% crit chance is about 15% more damage because I'm usually at 142.5-157.5% crit severity (depending on how many stacks of deadly momentum I can retain).
With all of this numbers in mind I dropped LA (my favourite Daily by far) after the module 2, when they ninja nerfed it so that you cannot use 2 encounter from stealth anymore.

Not sure why are you comparing 25% damage boost daily lasting 8~10 seconds with infinite stealth with 10% crit severity/crit chance feat that last for 6 seconds after you use SE daily. From what i saw on your logs, your SE did 97k damage from critting twice thats around 48.6k from each critted SE daily . I can assure you, that you can do the same or even more damage with your lashing blade.

I have done 140k+ lashing before with all the debuffs on the target, and 50k+ with no debuffs that's why i think SE is a waste because an encounter can refill its job. Not to mention that lashing can always crit from stealth, SE doesn't always crit. The bonus from devastating shroud isn't something i would rely on for DPS since you already got over 50% of crit chance and 10% crit severity isn't so appealing to ditch LA daily for.

twinkje wrote: »

Impact Shot is a 6.5% AP (10s cd) gain while Lashing Blade is 10% (16.9s cd). Lashing Blade is slightly better in terms of DPS (334 vs 306) but it works worse with dazzling blade. Impact Shot nicely clips with wicked reminder and its animation is not slower than Lashing Balde.
Impact Shot is not all-or-nothing and you can better manage its charges during the flow of the fight than what you can do with just 1 big hit than can possibly overkill.

I would prefer lashing blade for the over kill and the high base damage and guaranteed crit, but it is a personal preference since i never found impact shot appealing for me since i have good rotations with 100% critted lashing included.

twinkje · December 2013

esteena wrote: »

The bonus you get from Charisma isn't additive. The X % bonus you get from it stack multiplicatively with the % of the CA you have. So you get maximum of 1.6~2% of extra DPS while you are in CA from the CHA bonus. Here is the formula:

Combat Advantage Damage = AbilitiesDamage*(1+0.15*(1+StatBonus))

And that's why STR>CHA.

I admittedly ditched the whole dispute between CHA and STR since the early (open beta) stages of the game since there were no clear consensus about the right formulas behind the two stats. Therefore I simply got the one the looked cooler in a fashion way.

But let's say, for the sake of simplicity, that I lost a plain 5% of overall damage (I'm totally dumping all the benefits from the 5 points of Charisma that I have instead of Strength) for a little more survivability, would a Perfect Vorpal vs. a Greater One and a major potion of strength and a squash soup compensate this? I roughly estimate that yes they should.

I'd happily know what's the real formula behind strength as well.

esteena wrote: »

Never said it was, but it is a nice damage boost when you get out of stealth.

You worded it in a way that I assumed you were implicitly saying that without Lurker Assoult those 2 feats were loosing effectiveness.
My bad if it's not the case.

esteena wrote: »

Not sure why are you comparing 25% damage boost daily lasting 8~10 seconds with infinite stealth with 10% crit severity/crit chance feat that last for 6 seconds after you use SE daily. From what i saw on your logs, your SE did 97k damage from critting twice thats around 48.6k from each critted SE daily . I can assure you, that you can do the same or even more damage with your lashing blade.

I have done 140k+ lashing before with all the debuffs on the target, and 50k+ with no debuffs that's why i think SE is a waste because an encounter can refill its job. Not to mention that lashing can always crit from stealth, SE doesn't always crit. The bonus from devastating shroud isn't something i would rely on for DPS since you already got over 50% of crit chance and 10% crit severity isn't so appealing to ditch LA daily for.

Those 97k damage (actually they were 153k because one of the SE went on a Iron Golem) were on top of the bonus crit chance that I get after the use of Shocking Execution after which I could go in stealth again benefiting some more from brutal backstab.
I don't think I can prove this by number. I'm only saying that this rotation is more comfortable for this scenario where I have to maintain the Wicked Reminder's stacks.
As long as I don't see hard numbers that prove the opposite I will still be confident that it's a good rotation. As already stated, other TRs in my guild use different rotation/specs and I usually outdps them. I'm not saying it's the optimal one just like my GWF guildmate says that his build/rotation is not optimal either.

We're just average players after all

esteena wrote: »

I would prefer lashing blade for the over kill and the high base damage and guaranteed crit, but it is a personal preference since i never found impact shot appealing for me since i have good rotations with 100% critted lashing included.

At least we agree that is a personal preference.

Edit
I made a simple math (1684k * 1.05) and I scored a grand total of 1768k. Is that what I would have achieved if I had 5 more points in Strength instead od Charisma?

esteena · December 2013

twinkje wrote: »

I made a simple math (1684k * 1.05) and I scored a grand total of 1768k. Is that what I would have achieved if I had 5 more points in Strength instead od Charisma?

Yes, you should have had around that.

saved81 · December 2013

Numbers are numbers.
A GWF that deals 33% of his DPS by a single feat and thanks to that has become the best DPS PvE/PvP both Single target and AoE should be what you should focus on.

BTW the "additional CA damage", if that is the formula, is clearly NOT working as intended.
It's exactly how it was working the Arp bonus from dex/con for GF/GWF and have been reverted to an additive bonus and not a multiplicative bonus.
I wonder why noone ever posted this in the bug section.

Even without a perfect rotation, deep gash gives such a huge boost that he doesn't even need to care if it's overwritten or not, it just rules anyway.

esteena wrote: »

Yes, you should have had around that.

Doesn't seem that it would have been enought to change the dps chart, most of all when we are comparing a perfect vorpal + potions buffs and perfect companion with a greater vorpal, no pots and green/blue companions.

twinkje · December 2013

zacazu wrote: »

It turns out that a class - gwf - left the hole and have people upset that he lost the post of companion cw.

it reminds me of a joke. two poor "friends" are going through a scorching desert, and when they are about to die, find a magic lamp. After rubbing that <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> a genie appears, giving each the right to make a wish.

the first friend asks to be teleported to a 5 star hotel, the second asks her friend to be sent back to the desert.

No. If you were reading these boards form more than 1 day you could have read some other posts of myself where I wrote that I'm perfectly happy if the CW/GWF/GF do more overall damage (that is from some time so far).

The problem may arise when two classes overlaps and one performs better than the other also in other areas at the same time.

zacazu · December 2013

regardless of bad faith involving bleed (either by players of other classes that do not want to lose their sub-roles or even gwf who created the class for the pleasure of being a victim) not use arguing whether or not a bug. the point is whether it is bug. I posted logs and videos on the forums dealing bleed on feedback from testing module2, and not had any reply.

so I think it fair to require developers clarification about the feat, considering:

1 - players who believe their classes are forsaken shall require additional improvements to their respective specialties.

2 bug-being, the gwf should require improvements to the class, since a bug to equalize in the cw / ranger (who can not currently most interests me, is the same level) was required.

spicen · December 2013

Esteena and Twinkje, you do know that you can use encounters without losing your stealth while LA is up?

kozi001 · December 2013

(Stealth) TRs can kite Draco.
Even in mod1 with 12k.

16k+ Gwfs are dying before Draco 2 mins after "hand phase" causing the whole party to wipe.

Nowadays we bring (stealth)TRs or GFs instead of them...
Despite any of their greater dps.

larzynt · December 2013

I also tested my DPS with Halo next to me.
I have a Trickster Rogue and my rotation is kinda different from Twinkie's one.
When boss is full debuffed and I have my buffs, I usually activate my stealth, remove sealth with Impossible to catch (+6% bonus damage), LA (25% bonus damage, 15% bonus damage from Invisible infiltrator, 25% bonus critical from stealth) then 1 Duelist flurry and lashing blade and again duelist flurry. My rotation allows me to cast 1 daily every 15/22 seconds thanks bait and switch's effect (obviously without astral shield's defense buff)
When boss is at 50% (or less) hp I usually crit boss with SE and LB.
I usually deal more damage then CW's in a normal T2 GG run (also if they are AoEr)

Halo dealed more damage then me. 2.5m my final damage vs 3.2m Halo's damage. Faster run!

@esteena: my friend, 23 STR with campfire and Discipline of strenght / Scoundrel Training on my side, but result didn't change.

Here my charactersheet: http://gateway.playneverwinter.com/#char%28Naissur%20Etiwh@larzynt%29/charactersheet

zebular · December 2013

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Trickster Rogue vs. Great Weapon Fighter comparison

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