Nobody disagrees. But the fact that 'their DPS is not comparable to CW' and the fact that 'they are useless for Dungeons' is very different.
The way the game is shaped right now, there is no competition for top damage. It's either CWs or credit card GWFs. Of course, don't expect a buff in at wills for the Combat, especially since most of the whinners in the forums cry about OPness of the ranger.
Combat At-Will is not what's killing players in PvP. It's Ghost + Fox Shift that's killing players a combo of a Daily & Encounter spamming.
Before the nerf on the PTR it would have been AIM shot for 30+k 1 shotting players, after nerf no more QQ.
Combat At-Wills should be buffed to equal that of a GF (1k tool tip) not 250-400.
Combat At-Will is not what's killing players in PvP. It's Ghost + Fox Shift that's killing players a combo of a Daily & Encounter spamming.
Before the nerf on the PTR it would have been AIM shot for 30+k 1 shotting players, after nerf no more QQ.
Combat At-Wills should be buffed to equal that of a GF (1k tool tip) not 250-400.
I agree and that the weapon dmg on blades should be bumped up.
Gang Busters PvP Guild Recruiting When Mod 6 goes live Pm Me for more Info If you have any Paladin question Message Me and i will get back to you ASAP
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Combat At-Will is not what's killing players in PvP. It's Ghost + Fox Shift that's killing players a combo of a Daily & Encounter spamming.
Before the nerf on the PTR it would have been AIM shot for 30+k 1 shotting players, after nerf no more QQ.
Combat At-Wills should be buffed to equal that of a GF (1k tool tip) not 250-400.
Totally agree. What I was saying was that a buff is not around the corner, given the situation you describe. Certainly a raise in 100 max damage from your melee weapon wouldn't be game breaking at all, but I doubt that they will go into an in-depth analysis of what HR needs.
Right now, and back from preview shard, they are just trying to debug the abilities. PvE over PvP performance isn't even near their schedule.
The HR is lacking seriously in the DMG department.
Sure a fully geared (Full Rank 10's & Perfect Vorp) can out DPS pugs but when they go up vs. an equally geared CW. The CW's do about x2 the damage by end of run.
As a blanket statement this is utter tripe. A CW in full HV and rank 7's minimum and pet barely outdamages a HR in Gladestalker/Dread weapons and Rank 6s with no pet. Not because the CW player sucks either (because I know that's the next justification).
Again no arguments about combat spec, I don't know how that works, but the quoted comment does not specify the spec.
Obsidian Moonlight - Paladin Obsidian Oath - Warlock A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
Biggest problem right now for the HR would be double main weapons. I do feel that Cryptic messed it up by giving the same character the ability to fully use archery with melee abilities, but not give us the opportunity to do one or the other. Like 4th Edition DnD is supposed to be.
any kind of nerf to the HR will not automatically be harder to do, as you will affect both paths, archery and melee.
For balancing purposes, they really didn't think this one through imo.
Archery is fine as is for dps in pve, whilst combat is just lackluster alongside nature.
Biggest problem right now for the HR would be double main weapons. I do feel that Cryptic messed it up by giving the same character the ability to fully use archery with melee abilities, but not give us the opportunity to do one or the other. Like 4th Edition DnD is supposed to be.
any kind of nerf to the HR will not automatically be harder to do, as you will affect both paths, archery and melee.
For balancing purposes, they really didn't think this one through imo.
Archery is fine as is for dps in pve, whilst combat is just lackluster alongside nature.
Nature is perfectly fine you give up dmg in favor of supporting and nature users who have at least 5 points in black arrow will be fine as dps.
Gang Busters PvP Guild Recruiting When Mod 6 goes live Pm Me for more Info If you have any Paladin question Message Me and i will get back to you ASAP
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Combat HR works fine. My gs is 12.8. I ran dk for the first time on this toon. Have overkill of 29 percent arm pen. I could pull the mobs at anytime from the CW. He asked if I would stay strictly to boss and we sauced threw it no issues. Easy 2 runs and had enough time for a third but gwf dropped since it was very late. The challenge is that you need to spec encounters to mobs before first then quickly switch for boss. Change quickly and don't be that guy that always asks for folks to slow down. Nobody wants to slow down. I was easily within 500k of the Cw for these runs without spamming split shot for the boss encounter. Folks are already use to the roots tear the sky and split spam. It's time they get use to a hr /tr boss meltdown. I was dpsing higher than the Gwf and Tr. bottom line, skill is not replaced by gear. Get skill, don't be lazy and you'll be fine.
Combat HR works fine. My gs is 12.8. I ran dk for the first time on this toon. Have overkill of 29 percent arm pen. I could pull the mobs at anytime from the CW. He asked if I would stay strictly to boss and we sauced threw it no issues. Easy 2 runs and had enough time for a third but gwf dropped since it was very late. The challenge is that you need to spec encounters to mobs before first then quickly switch for boss. Change quickly and don't be that guy that always asks for folks to slow down. Nobody wants to slow down. I was easily within 500k of the Cw for these runs without spamming split shot for the boss encounter. Folks are already use to the roots tear the sky and split spam. It's time they get use to a hr /tr boss meltdown. I was dpsing higher than the Gwf and Tr. bottom line, skill is not replaced by gear. Get skill, don't be lazy and you'll be fine.
I agree. I am in blues with about 18% armor pen. You can do a lot of dam just can't be lazy. Have to switch between melee and range keep your encounters on cool down and you will push great numbers. I really think staying in melee or range all the time your just gimping yourself. I think the dam is balanced around the fact we have 6 encounters to use so why not use them.
Melee's problem is entirely rooted in the low damage values (1/2 to 2/3 of Bows) on the weapons. Fix that and melee will be fine.
There might need to be some tweaking of powers to keep things in line, but thats relatively simple (as its the damage multiplier in the attacks code).
Is this officially confirmed anywhere that only the weapon dmg of melee weapon(s) applies to melee skills, and vice versa? I thought it would be the same how it is with rogues, just that bow is mainhand and blades are offhand for hr. Tbh if this was the situation, then guardian would have to have weapon dmg stat on their shields as quite few of their skills uses shield for attacking.
Is it officially confirmed? No.
Does all the data we gathered during Preview and your own ability to experiement say it is true? Absolutely.
The secondary stat boost (ie power etc) and enchantments (ie vorpal) apply regardless of stance but damage seems to be directly tied to the weapon used.
Obsidian Moonlight - Paladin Obsidian Oath - Warlock A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
1
hetzerxMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 10Arc User
You don't even give up that much damage for Nature spec done right.
How so? Nature spec doesnt even give any direct bonus to dmg in a sense, aside from making your buffs better/longer.
for melee you can get +15% dmg, +5% more with throw caution (rank 3 assuming is 15%+5%) so 20%, 10% crit, 17%chance to double hit which can both crit, so 17% to have a possible quad dmg depending on crit chance, which should be 55-60%.
Has anyone tried melee with 24/25dex and 21/20cha, both add up to +25% damage (14% base +11% combat advantage, or 15% base and 10% combat advantage) but the 24/21 has an extra points in int for recharge. and you are always in CA with aspect of the pact.
so +25% base, +15%melee,+20% throw caution, +10% cirt, +17% 2x hit, (im sure there are other increases im missing off the top of my head) + thorn ward reduce mitigation, aimshot melee's bleed, with either a perfect vorpal or perfect Bilethorn (it stacks 3 times which people dont know of), seems like it could dish out a ton of dmg,
How so? Nature spec doesnt even give any direct bonus to dmg in a sense, aside from making your buffs better/longer.
for melee you can get +15% dmg, +5% more with throw caution (rank 3 assuming is 15%+5%) so 20%, 10% crit, 17%chance to double hit which can both crit, so 17% to have a possible quad dmg depending on crit chance, which should be 55-60%.
Has anyone tried melee with 24/25dex and 21/20cha, both add up to +25% damage (14% base +11% combat advantage, or 15% base and 10% combat advantage) but the 24/21 has an extra points in int for recharge. and you are always in CA with aspect of the pact.
so +25% base, +15%melee,+20% throw caution, +10% cirt, +17% 2x hit, (im sure there are other increases im missing off the top of my head) + thorn ward reduce mitigation, aimshot melee's bleed, with either a perfect vorpal or perfect Bilethorn (it stacks 3 times which people dont know of), seems like it could dish out a ton of dmg,
ever sence this thread i have been toying with aimed strike and its bleed tick it can do very nice single target dmg if you have a vorpal or bilethorn Enchantment i aim its still kinda Low for dmg
Gang Busters PvP Guild Recruiting When Mod 6 goes live Pm Me for more Info If you have any Paladin question Message Me and i will get back to you ASAP
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Is it officially confirmed? No.
Does all the data we gathered during Preview and your own ability to experiement say it is true? Absolutely.
The secondary stat boost (ie power etc) and enchantments (ie vorpal) apply regardless of stance but damage seems to be directly tied to the weapon used.
I'm pretty low lvl on my hr (20) and did only test my tr on preview and new refinement system. So I haven't done any testing so far. But I believe you that it's this way. Though I think it shouldn't. Or then atleast buff the weapon dmg on melee weapons. I know many love hr because of the archery but I myself would like to make more melee oriented ranger who only uses ranged attacks when closing gaps or to apply debuffs or when I need to evade some nasty aoe for example.
Melee damage is about 2/3 of ranged damage with most attacks.
So buffing it significantly just brings it up on par with ranged damage. For example if melee does 600 damage and ranged does 900 you need a 50% buff to the 600 just to make it equal the 900.
There are notable exceptions; Fox's Shift being one.
Those notable exceptions are often best employed by a Nature build (due to higher general recovery or specific feat benefits to the power).
So a Nature build looses Crit chance from the tier 3+ Archery tree and maybe a 15% buff to melee encounters from the 2nd tier of the archery tree. Because you should take the Crit severity boost from the first tier of Archery regardless. Yes you will do less damage than an Archery build that has the same stats and gear, but you will not be so far behind it that most people will notice.
Obsidian Moonlight - Paladin Obsidian Oath - Warlock A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
What encounters/at-wills do you guys use in pve for combat. Seems like a pve geared combat ranger could do pretty good single target DPS. I am still leveling, but rain of arrows seems to work very well as melee for single target DPS as it does a ton of damage if the full dot gets applied, and gives you an extra damage encounter that is running while you are doing melee dps. You can stack damage over times with rain of arrows, aim strike, rain of swords, and possibly thorn ward while using your melee encounters and filling in the gaps with rapid strike. The constant stance switching would keep up the 3% damage boost feat. If you run aspect of the serpent, your rain of arrows would be pretty much guarunteed a 15% damage boost. With a bugged stormstep action, you could keep both rain of arrows and thorn ward running constantly.
How many people stack power? The melee weapons have a low damage range which should make them very scalable with power. GWFs have high damage ranges and power was really bad for them because of this until deep gash was changed to do a ton more damage based on power. The low damage range should mean it takes about 112 power to increase your damage 1%. Now weapons already come with a ton of power and power damage to at-will/encounter ratios is not optimized to be in sync with weapon damage contribution ratios, so it may take more than that to get 1% increases from a base level with weapons already equipped.
I am sure people have thought of this before, so please excuse any ignorance on my part. Just seeking explanations. I like to fully understand the class capabilities down to the nitty gritty math.
Mindflayer - Exodus
Daria - Dwarf Sentinel GWF (mistaken for Halfling a lot)
Karia (aka "The Pug") - Human Combat HR
Kayd - Human Conqueror GF - Retired
How many people stack power? The melee weapons have a low damage range which should make them very scalable with power. GWFs have high damage ranges and power was really bad for them because of this until deep gash was changed to do a ton more damage based on power. The low damage range should mean it takes about 112 power to increase your damage 1%. Now weapons already come with a ton of power and power damage to at-will/encounter ratios is not optimized to be in sync with weapon damage contribution ratios, so it may take more than that to get 1% increases from a base level with weapons already equipped.
I thought about power being possible good for melee dmg as the weapon dmg is so low and specially fox hitting so hard. So i went on and unequiped a few pieces with power, basically went from 3.4 to 1.4 power, and started hitting dummys with melee atwills and fox shift with both power settings.
It was very dissapointing.... there was barely any difference in damage, basically lower power had a bit smaller maxs and mins damage in hits but most of the time they were hitting for around the same.
I thought about power being possible good for melee dmg as the weapon dmg is so low and specially fox hitting so hard. So i went on and unequiped a few pieces with power, basically went from 3.4 to 1.4 power, and started hitting dummys with melee atwills and fox shift with both power settings.
It was very dissapointing.... there was barely any difference in damage, basically lower power had a bit smaller maxs and mins damage in hits but most of the time they were hitting for around the same.
Sounds like it could be a bug. Did you check your damage ranges on the power sheet and compare them? 2K power should be 80 base damage on top of your weapon damage. An ancient set has an average of 447 damage + the 1.4K you already had should have put you around 503 base damage. 80 more should have been a about a 15.9% damage boost if you directly correlate it. Given at-will/encounter base damage and the ratio of weapon damage/power to Powers damage is not exactly the same and favors weapon damage usually, you should have seen a 12-14% damage boost based on that power.
Mindflayer - Exodus
Daria - Dwarf Sentinel GWF (mistaken for Halfling a lot)
Karia (aka "The Pug") - Human Combat HR
Kayd - Human Conqueror GF - Retired
in the power sheet? u mean in the combat log? it wasnt really necessary as both setups were generally hitting for the same....
I did note down the highest and lowest critical and non critical hits in both setups and the diference was probably that, some 80-100 dmg. sample size wasnt too extensive as i was expecting something more obvious.
It could probably be a bug but i really dont have the time now to do some extensive testing, so i throw out the ball if someone with time wants to pickup from there.
Its not going to be hugely obvious, but that 80-100 lower minimum and maximum means that your mean damage is 80-100 lower as well. Spread that over a hundred attacks and you have done 8000-10000 less damage, and you will make many more than 100 attacks in a dungeon to the point it will cost 100's of thousands of points of damage.
The loss becomes worse when you crit a lot as well. For math ease a 100% severity means you loose 160-200 points of each crit. Similarly for all other damage boost effects, though the effect is smaller, again over thousands of attacks it shows.
I see this because I run a lot with a similarly equiped HR to mine and the major difference between us is our dex, they have 26 and I have 24. The end result is they are typically 100-300k damage above me at the end of a dungeon/skirmish. It can blow out further depending on what happens in the run or swing in my favour as well, but the default is them in position 1 and me in 2 or 3 in the Paingiver table with that small gap between us and the CW or TR slipping between us sometimes.
Obsidian Moonlight - Paladin Obsidian Oath - Warlock A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
@voltomey: it's not the bad english. the reason people don't understand what you write is that you don't use punctuation. simple rule of thumb, for short pauses (when writing like you talk), use a comma. when you have a longer pause, it means your idea is complete. In that case, use a period. you will see that p[people will understand what your write far better even when you use the wrong grammar.
Comments
Combat At-Will is not what's killing players in PvP. It's Ghost + Fox Shift that's killing players a combo of a Daily & Encounter spamming.
Before the nerf on the PTR it would have been AIM shot for 30+k 1 shotting players, after nerf no more QQ.
Combat At-Wills should be buffed to equal that of a GF (1k tool tip) not 250-400.
I agree and that the weapon dmg on blades should be bumped up.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Totally agree. What I was saying was that a buff is not around the corner, given the situation you describe. Certainly a raise in 100 max damage from your melee weapon wouldn't be game breaking at all, but I doubt that they will go into an in-depth analysis of what HR needs.
Right now, and back from preview shard, they are just trying to debug the abilities. PvE over PvP performance isn't even near their schedule.
I think that this would be great, but will probably only happen when if they fix SsA.
Again no arguments about combat spec, I don't know how that works, but the quoted comment does not specify the spec.
Obsidian Oath - Warlock
A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
any kind of nerf to the HR will not automatically be harder to do, as you will affect both paths, archery and melee.
For balancing purposes, they really didn't think this one through imo.
Archery is fine as is for dps in pve, whilst combat is just lackluster alongside nature.
There might need to be some tweaking of powers to keep things in line, but thats relatively simple (as its the damage multiplier in the attacks code).
Obsidian Oath - Warlock
A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
Nature is perfectly fine you give up dmg in favor of supporting and nature users who have at least 5 points in black arrow will be fine as dps.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Obsidian Oath - Warlock
A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
Is this officially confirmed anywhere that only the weapon dmg of melee weapon(s) applies to melee skills, and vice versa? I thought it would be the same how it is with rogues, just that bow is mainhand and blades are offhand for hr. Tbh if this was the situation, then guardian would have to have weapon dmg stat on their shields as quite few of their skills uses shield for attacking.
Does all the data we gathered during Preview and your own ability to experiement say it is true? Absolutely.
The secondary stat boost (ie power etc) and enchantments (ie vorpal) apply regardless of stance but damage seems to be directly tied to the weapon used.
Obsidian Oath - Warlock
A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
How so? Nature spec doesnt even give any direct bonus to dmg in a sense, aside from making your buffs better/longer.
for melee you can get +15% dmg, +5% more with throw caution (rank 3 assuming is 15%+5%) so 20%, 10% crit, 17%chance to double hit which can both crit, so 17% to have a possible quad dmg depending on crit chance, which should be 55-60%.
Has anyone tried melee with 24/25dex and 21/20cha, both add up to +25% damage (14% base +11% combat advantage, or 15% base and 10% combat advantage) but the 24/21 has an extra points in int for recharge. and you are always in CA with aspect of the pact.
so +25% base, +15%melee,+20% throw caution, +10% cirt, +17% 2x hit, (im sure there are other increases im missing off the top of my head) + thorn ward reduce mitigation, aimshot melee's bleed, with either a perfect vorpal or perfect Bilethorn (it stacks 3 times which people dont know of), seems like it could dish out a ton of dmg,
ever sence this thread i have been toying with aimed strike and its bleed tick it can do very nice single target dmg if you have a vorpal or bilethorn Enchantment i aim its still kinda Low for dmg
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
I'm pretty low lvl on my hr (20) and did only test my tr on preview and new refinement system. So I haven't done any testing so far. But I believe you that it's this way. Though I think it shouldn't. Or then atleast buff the weapon dmg on melee weapons. I know many love hr because of the archery but I myself would like to make more melee oriented ranger who only uses ranged attacks when closing gaps or to apply debuffs or when I need to evade some nasty aoe for example.
Melee damage is about 2/3 of ranged damage with most attacks.
So buffing it significantly just brings it up on par with ranged damage. For example if melee does 600 damage and ranged does 900 you need a 50% buff to the 600 just to make it equal the 900.
There are notable exceptions; Fox's Shift being one.
Those notable exceptions are often best employed by a Nature build (due to higher general recovery or specific feat benefits to the power).
So a Nature build looses Crit chance from the tier 3+ Archery tree and maybe a 15% buff to melee encounters from the 2nd tier of the archery tree. Because you should take the Crit severity boost from the first tier of Archery regardless. Yes you will do less damage than an Archery build that has the same stats and gear, but you will not be so far behind it that most people will notice.
Obsidian Oath - Warlock
A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
How many people stack power? The melee weapons have a low damage range which should make them very scalable with power. GWFs have high damage ranges and power was really bad for them because of this until deep gash was changed to do a ton more damage based on power. The low damage range should mean it takes about 112 power to increase your damage 1%. Now weapons already come with a ton of power and power damage to at-will/encounter ratios is not optimized to be in sync with weapon damage contribution ratios, so it may take more than that to get 1% increases from a base level with weapons already equipped.
I am sure people have thought of this before, so please excuse any ignorance on my part. Just seeking explanations. I like to fully understand the class capabilities down to the nitty gritty math.
Daria - Dwarf Sentinel GWF (mistaken for Halfling a lot)
Karia (aka "The Pug") - Human Combat HR
Kayd - Human Conqueror GF - Retired
I thought about power being possible good for melee dmg as the weapon dmg is so low and specially fox hitting so hard. So i went on and unequiped a few pieces with power, basically went from 3.4 to 1.4 power, and started hitting dummys with melee atwills and fox shift with both power settings.
It was very dissapointing.... there was barely any difference in damage, basically lower power had a bit smaller maxs and mins damage in hits but most of the time they were hitting for around the same.
Sounds like it could be a bug. Did you check your damage ranges on the power sheet and compare them? 2K power should be 80 base damage on top of your weapon damage. An ancient set has an average of 447 damage + the 1.4K you already had should have put you around 503 base damage. 80 more should have been a about a 15.9% damage boost if you directly correlate it. Given at-will/encounter base damage and the ratio of weapon damage/power to Powers damage is not exactly the same and favors weapon damage usually, you should have seen a 12-14% damage boost based on that power.
Daria - Dwarf Sentinel GWF (mistaken for Halfling a lot)
Karia (aka "The Pug") - Human Combat HR
Kayd - Human Conqueror GF - Retired
I did note down the highest and lowest critical and non critical hits in both setups and the diference was probably that, some 80-100 dmg. sample size wasnt too extensive as i was expecting something more obvious.
It could probably be a bug but i really dont have the time now to do some extensive testing, so i throw out the ball if someone with time wants to pickup from there.
The loss becomes worse when you crit a lot as well. For math ease a 100% severity means you loose 160-200 points of each crit. Similarly for all other damage boost effects, though the effect is smaller, again over thousands of attacks it shows.
I see this because I run a lot with a similarly equiped HR to mine and the major difference between us is our dex, they have 26 and I have 24. The end result is they are typically 100-300k damage above me at the end of a dungeon/skirmish. It can blow out further depending on what happens in the run or swing in my favour as well, but the default is them in position 1 and me in 2 or 3 in the Paingiver table with that small gap between us and the CW or TR slipping between us sometimes.
Obsidian Oath - Warlock
A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.