TAB pulling absolutely lets you split mob groups up, just like /con pulling in EQ did. LOS pulls also work just fine, tho nobody seems to understand them anymore...
To TAB/taunt split: target a mob at an edge of the area you want split, back up until you lose the "target" cursor, then take tiny bumps forward until you get it again. Check the other mobs, ideally there will be only ONE with a red cursor for you. Hit "tab", and back up immediately, out of LOS (line of sight) if possible, especially if your target is a caster. The only mobs that will aggro (and come to find you) are the ones "hard" linked to your target.
Couple examples where TAB splits work well:
- MC2; if you want an easier start to the fight, you can pull the bosses adds in 2 separate pulls w/o aggroing him. He WILL aggro if anyone steps off the raised area tho.
- VT courtyard just before Val's room; if needed, you can split all those rows of mobs into 2-4 mob chunks, which can be prudent given the bugged invis wall just before the first boss's area.
etc.
maybe they should do a "unbreakable" tab. something like unstoppable, but for few seconds GF can block without spending block stamina, or recover the block x times faster.
and they build this bar by dealing Damage or something like that
I would rather see Guard moved to stamina meter and spent only while holding block like stamina. THis would provide actual usefulness and skill involved with block. Also would prevent block cheese like DF a guard meter to nothing in seconds, or pulling more than 5 mobs in PVE and having zero block meter in 1 second...
For Tab, I guess one change as I posted above would just be adding a more "perma" mark to it, something LIKE 3 hits before its removed, this would bring alot of value to mark...
That would still leave GF high and dry though since other abilities provide a mark as well...
Maybe turn it into "strong mark" and weak mark - Where GF tab applies a strong mark which has 3 hits till it goes away while a weak mark goes away after 1 hit.
Honestly Id probably still rather have it better than that and maybe a flat duration of time.
So Strong mark lasts 8 seconds flat, weak mark (from threat rush/ET/etc) last for 3 hits - so you dont find yourself spamming this all the time for most classes.
This way the GF will have an easier time holding agro one 1 target and can still use AOE mark tactics for ads. That would be much better than it is now and STILL give pull ability.
I would rather see Guard moved to stamina meter and spent only while holding block like stamina. THis would provide actual usefulness and skill involved with block. Also would prevent block cheese like DF a guard meter to nothing in seconds, or pulling more than 5 mobs in PVE and having zero block meter in 1 second...
For Tab, I guess one change as I posted above would just be adding a more "perma" mark to it, something LIKE 3 hits before its removed, this would bring alot of value to mark...
That would still leave GF high and dry though since other abilities provide a mark as well...
Maybe turn it into "strong mark" and weak mark - Where GF tab applies a strong mark which has 3 hits till it goes away while a weak mark goes away after 1 hit.
Honestly Id probably still rather have it better than that and maybe a flat duration of time.
So Strong mark lasts 8 seconds flat, weak mark (from threat rush/ET/etc) last for 3 hits - so you dont find yourself spamming this all the time for most classes.
This way the GF will have an easier time holding agro one 1 target and can still use AOE mark tactics for ads. That would be much better than it is now and STILL give pull ability.
the problem with it is that would allow you to "spam" block as you please, hold, let go, hold let go.
i would think gf needs something else on tab tho.
Dovahkiin Gannicus, GWF Sentinel- Enemy Team Guild
Gannicus Destroyer, GWF Destroyer retired
Kate Beckinsale NB DC, Link NB GF
"There is only one way to be a champion..., Never ...ing lose"
Probably unpopular because most want to keep block, but here's my suggestion from the preview forums a while back.
The comment about mark and weapon procs was in response to Devs contemplating a mark component for wms and GF's
*********************************
I firmly believe that GF's need work, both in power and quality of play. That said however......
You may want to look at the way abilities with mark interact with weapon enchants before you do that. To avoid the obligatory nerf after you introduce something OP.
As for sugesstions:
- Switch the tab and shift abilities they don't seem fitting in comparison to other classes.
- Mark (Taunt) becomes a ground targeted leap with aoe mark. This is in line with other classes mobility and escapes, while still maintaining flavour with use of stamina. Also potentially solves your problem with the loss of threatening rush on swordmaster.
- Block becomes Unstoppable. Block is clunky and impedes the use of encounters. If there must be a seperation of the fighters, call it something like 'Hunker Down', give it the mitigation and regen bonuses, but lock a player to the shield related at wills. You don't get the increased dmg of the GWF at wills, instead you get single target threat through agravating strike and longer Unstoppable due to shield slam regen. Locking the player to agrravating strike and shield slam keeps your block animations in line. (Yes this is a lot of work and probably unlikely)
- Make all shield regen abilities now regen or effect Unstoppable/Hunker Down.
- make mark a 5s debuff, the current mechanics are overcomplicated and unnescescary.
the problem with it is that would allow you to "spam" block as you please, hold, let go, hold let go.
i would think gf needs something else on tab tho.
Thats an easy solution and you could easily have come up with it,
Create a "divider" - like the TR has halfway through his stamina bar, that shows two "dodges" but about 1/3rd of the way through the GF stamina bar.
This would be the block activation meter where you must be above that mark to block, The other thing is that block is a server side mechanic with a small CD preventing spamming, so you cant really spam block.
its literally the same mechanic used now EXCEPT instead of block meter being used up by taking damage (with cryptics formula) its just purely used up by holding block at all...
So you could have one hundred mobs on you at once and as long as your stamina meter is up, youll be protected. As soon as you run out, nothing.
Why put it on stamina? Because all other classes "shift" is on stamina, and stamina regen abilities they already have to rename "block regen" as well. It makes more sense with the game and the class to make it stamina based.
the problem with it is that would allow you to "spam" block as you please, hold, let go, hold let go.
i would think gf needs something else on tab tho.
There is a animation time on block, try spam it as it for now see how glitch it is for u. so plz be a good GF first before u make pointless and foolish comment. Thank you on behalf of all our actual exp GF.
There is a animation time on block, try spam it as it for now see how glitch it is for u. so plz be a good GF first before u make pointless and foolish comment. Thank you on behalf of all our actual exp GF.
Exactly,
THe other aspect of stamina/block that works the better is that you can longer hold block indefinitely, it would be on a timer since holding would drain stamina...
This puts even more benefit in +Guard meter since that could = less tam drain when guarding instead.
Puts the skill into block and makes it an actual viable ability...
Im thinking that gf should have 2tabs maybe. The mark is needed for pve. But maybe add one that regens block to full or makes your shield unbreakable for a certain time. The meter would charge like unstopable and be titled either unbreakable or knights vigor. Something along those lines. It would balance out gf a bit more vs these new montrous god weapon fighters
U R 2 E Z- SENT IV GWF undefeated 16k GS
FaceRoller- regen recovery TR (put on the shelf for now) 14k GS
Supreme CHAOS - IV GF (put on the shelf for now) 16k GS
White Khalifa- tene/hp/regen CW (retired) 11k GS (tene)
Death From Above- TANK ranger 16kGS
(all halfling everything)
I am in deep concern of this issues and i did read the entire thread before posting...
From my PvP/PvE point of view the two best suggestions for rework and implementing:
SHIFT - stamina based Guard Meter(Its not measured on the hits u take but on the stamina bar u have)
Tab - Medium Range Jump similiar to Mighty Leap on GWF(since we dont have any escape option like dodge or sprint or invisability the class can really use a good escape ability that is used for tactical placement both in PvP and PvE) the current version of tab is a waste and doesnt provide any help at all.Since we have 1 enounter and 1 at-will which allow AoE mark on decent PvE range i dont see the use of that gigantic Tab Range since a simple CW can just hit a mob from same distance and aggro it so we can kill.
I really like my class and even after Module 2 i still enjoy playing in PvP/PvE....but after all the new Paragons and Clearly OP buffs thats everyclass had ...we didnt get HAMSTER...so i think something really should change so the balance to be considered #fair#
1. Tab (and mark in general): give it multiple charges or make it not come off except when you are crit. It is by FAR the weakest class mechanic in game right now (not to mention apparently weaker than the man-at-arms companion version... wth?).
2. Give us a better (faster) way to recover guard: make regen/recovery give an in-combat regen rate, make all guarded attacks recover based on # mobs hit (also ET), or SOMETHING to make tanking > 3 elite mobs possible for any length of time.
3. GET RID OF THE STUPID LUNGE ANIMATION. This has gotten me in more HAMSTER than anything else on my GF.
4. the guarded stab-at will needs a wider aoe radius. I have to be corner humping the mobs to get it to hit all of them.
5. Encounter powers. Only 3 are actually tank-oriented. The rest are meh cc or single target 'loldps' moves that no tank ever uses. Can I do more than just pretend to stab things, stomp occasionally, and charge runaways?
6. PVP: Really, why I even bother, I have no idea. GF can attempt to stalemate something for a brief period until our guard breaks. We can't kill anything unless we overgear them. We die as soon as our guard breaks (which tends to be fast), from cc. Other than our few prones, we don't bring anything to the team. Fixing the above things might even this out a bit.
I am in deep concern of this issues and i did read the entire thread before posting...
From my PvP/PvE point of view the two best suggestions for rework and implementing:
SHIFT - stamina based Guard Meter(Its not measured on the hits u take but on the stamina bar u have)
Tab - Medium Range Jump similiar to Mighty Leap on GWF(since we dont have any escape option like dodge or sprint or invisability the class can really use a good escape ability that is used for tactical placement both in PvP and PvE) the current version of tab is a waste and doesnt provide any help at all.Since we have 1 enounter and 1 at-will which allow AoE mark on decent PvE range i dont see the use of that gigantic Tab Range since a simple CW can just hit a mob from same distance and aggro it so we can kill.
I really like my class and even after Module 2 i still enjoy playing in PvP/PvE....but after all the new Paragons and Clearly OP buffs thats everyclass had ...we didnt get HAMSTER...so i think something really should change so the balance to be considered #fair#
I agree. GF is still playable, for what i have seen they have to be super tanky and just staying at the node. they can take the node of gwf, but doing only that the entire match i am not sure if it is very fun. something should be buffed for gf, and something else on tab, since all they do is mark seems to be viable. I like ur2z idea and yours. But i was thinking that, maybe it should not be something related to more "block", but maybe something DPS, I am not sure if there is more point of letting GF even more tanky. so i really like the idea of the jump.
Dovahkiin Gannicus, GWF Sentinel- Enemy Team Guild
Gannicus Destroyer, GWF Destroyer retired
Kate Beckinsale NB DC, Link NB GF
"There is only one way to be a champion..., Never ...ing lose"
THe other aspect of stamina/block that works the better is that you can longer hold block indefinitely, it would be on a timer since holding would drain stamina...
This puts even more benefit in +Guard meter since that could = less tam drain when guarding instead.
Puts the skill into block and makes it an actual viable ability...
Amen. I love PvP'ing vs. Other GF's but the darn crab wars take too long and it usually is decided by a passing third party. Personally, I think block shouldn't be quickly broken by at wills. Changing it to a Stamina bar solves both problems.
Oh yeah, since we get no dodge, IMHO block should block every attack including ice knife if facing. But that is less important.
I am in deep concern of this issues and i did read the entire thread before posting...
From my PvP/PvE point of view the two best suggestions for rework and implementing:
SHIFT - stamina based Guard Meter(Its not measured on the hits u take but on the stamina bar u have)
Tab - Medium Range Jump similiar to Mighty Leap on GWF(since we dont have any escape option like dodge or sprint or invisability the class can really use a good escape ability that is used for tactical placement both in PvP and PvE) the current version of tab is a waste and doesnt provide any help at all.Since we have 1 enounter and 1 at-will which allow AoE mark on decent PvE range i dont see the use of that gigantic Tab Range since a simple CW can just hit a mob from same distance and aggro it so we can kill.
I really like my class and even after Module 2 i still enjoy playing in PvP/PvE....but after all the new Paragons and Clearly OP buffs thats everyclass had ...we didnt get HAMSTER...so i think something really should change so the balance to be considered #fair#
Amen. I love PvP'ing vs. Other GF's but the darn crab wars take too long and it usually is decided by a passing third party. Personally, I think block shouldn't be quickly broken by at wills. Changing it to a Stamina bar solves both problems.
Oh yeah, since we get no dodge, IMHO block should block every attack including ice knife if facing. But that is less important.
Yeah im really in love with the stamina = block which removes the turtle GF 1v1s since it would remove holding block 24/7 it would also give nice suvivability.
Could potentially have tab give some type of stamina regen where you would block till stamina drains then could tab to refill stamina for more block. Just an idea.
To keep the same mark mechanic and make it even somewhat viable making it more permanent would really help.
A leap sounds interesting. Maybe a mighty leap with an aoe mark would be cool - but only if your block could last linger than 2 seconds versus 3 mobs.
Could always throw a mini knights challenge on tab as well. Keep mark on threat rush and threat shout but add a mini KC for say 20% increased damage receivedand given tthatlasts for say 6 seconds... Only active on one at a time but still spamable... That could work as well especially for solo dps/threat.
I agree with the entire topic. I believe I laid down some of my ideas in the preview forum, like the hard taunt channeling mechanic, and would like to offer some new ones for this thread; not just for the TAB mechanic but for the play style of the class itself. Because you gotta admit, devs (if you guys are reading our feedback), I usually do not say these things because I tend to see the good in a class much more than the bad, but the GF has a lot of glaring imperfections which needs some serious attention.
Hard Taunts, and Our Dire Need for It.
The GF as it is right now is a sub par tank, which is why people like playing it as a beat stick much more than a tank. As a tank class, what the Guardian Fighter's currently missing are hard taunt abilities. I find it strange that a tank class like the GF doesn't have hard taunts aside from Enforced Threat. We need more of these Taunt effects, effects that will allow us to generate enough aggro to be able to function well as a tank in PVE. I suggest pairing some of our current existing skills with "Taunt" effects like the one we see from Enforced Threat. Below are some of the skills in which I think would work wonderfully by pairing them up with Taunt abilities.
Knight's Challenge: It's a "challenge" to a foe, so it's pretty reasonable if its current effects add a "Taunt" mechanic to it. It'll be a single-target taunt unlike Enforced Threat's AoE taunt for 5 enemies, which will be useful against strong enemies and bosses.
Aggravating Strike: This is supposed to be a skill that aggravates and taunts our foe into attacking us. And since we thrust our weapons above our shield while using this At-Will, maybe it'll make sense if our hit box got reduced and the range of the at-will got increased, in order to make it look more like a thrust. So far whenever I use this skill, I find myself surprised from time to time that I'm still hitting mobs beside the enemy I'm currently targeting even though they're not getting hit by my weapon.
Crushing Surge: At the last hit, instead of healing us by a meager amount, why not give it a hard taunt instead? This'll make it a bit more desirable at least for PVE. The healing effect doesn't make sense.
At the very least, giving us another skill with a hard taunt would make tanking a whole lot easier. Either that, or increase Enforced Threat's target cap. No one's using that skill for its damage anyway so I'm pretty sure no one will mind if we lose 50% of our damage if we can double the amount of enemies we can hit with it, and maybe increase its range as well. If it's also possible to just remove the target cap and allow us to mark and taunt as much enemies as we can using Enforced Threat, I think it's safe to say that we can just remove the damage Enforced Threat does. The damage we do with it is pretty much negligible anyway.
Improvements to the Protector Feat Path.
I also would like to raise some suggestions for the improvements for the Protector Path. Out of all the 3 paragon feat paths, the Protector is the least desirable one due to how its capstone feat grows pale in comparison to Conqueror's and Tactician's. The Conqueror's capstone feat supports the play style of DPS GF's a whole lot by increasing their power based on the amount of Guard they have on their meter. This allows them to deal increased amount of damage and pretty much double the threat due to how threat generation is technically equal to damage output. Tactician's capstone feat is the 2nd best due to the utility it can bring for the GF.
Protector's capstone feat, however, is simply terrible. I don't know how else I can phrase it but its effects doesn't resemble anything that is worthy of calling an "Iron Guard." It has a slow ramp up time, can be hard to stack and we can pretty much forgo this feat in favor of another lesser non-capstone feat.
Which is why I'd also like to suggest to rework Iron Guard to something that will truly make it seem like we have an Iron Guard. An idea that I've been playing with in my head is the ability to Guard all attacks regardless of direction. This means Iron Guard will remove our weakness of being vulnerable when being attacked from behind while guarding.
Another possible rework for Iron Guard would be to increase our Guard Meter's regeneration by 30%. Something that will make tanking a more bearable duty. Kiting is the norm right now for tanking, and technically that's not really tanking since you're running around in circles trying to maintain the aggro you made by running away. An improved Iron Guard would make the tank play style a bit more desirable for more players and could possibly alleviate the current meta for delving parties that require 2 - 3 CW's while forgoing the tank.
I was thinking about this before, and I like alot of your thoughts above.
I almost wonder if the best course of action would be to give GFs encounters alternate uses while holding block or NOT holding block, although all share the same CD like a TR does (not like a HR)
Then you could have Knights challenge - used IN block give a hard defensive ability like a hard taunt, and then the NON shield side, give a dmg boost.
Then you could have "Tab" also change like this as well.
NON-Block "tab" could be used as an offensive ability like a "Leap" a Block "tab" could be a MARK that stays for X amount of time.
I STILL am very convinced that block needs to be stamina based OR if it retains its current guard meter, make it so damage taken does NOT reduce it, only time HELD reduces the block meter.
Then give it a flat "regen" timer OR! YOU could even give block a "boost" to regen guard meter based upon taking damage like a GWF takes damage and receives Determination - A GF could take damage and gain block meter...
Again much like a TR regens "stealth meter" - it would be similar, however maybe HALF the regen rate, however taking damage BOOSTS regen rate.
There are alot of attractive options. Right now a GWF becomes MORE tanky the more people are attacking them. Its funny because (prior to Mod 2) - I had ALOT of 1v1 GF vs GWF experience in which I almost never had any issues with a GWF, the only times I would actually HAVE problems is when a PUG would attack the GWF giving him determination and make it much harder to time my burst DPS... So having that 2v1 scenario WITH a bad player actually WORSENED the fight for myself versus just 1 GWF.
Contrast that with a GF, a 2v1 scenario - regardless of how bad someone is them spamming their "at will" just shreds block meter essentially making it almost worthless and the "tank" class can get absolutely MELTED in seconds. Its even worse with good players...
I play many classes and have been around a long time in this game. I always thought GFs were honestly a strong but fairly balanced class pre mod 2. They were very good in the hands of a skilled person who could use skill to combo/prone well.
It seems now though they fall quite behind and the lack of tankiness with the lack of damage is what hurts the class... The GWF is MORE tanky and deals MORE damage than GFs and BECOMES even more tanky and in some cases can deal MORE damage when attacked by multiple targets (due to no CC). Where as a GF deals LESS damage outright, is LESS tanky 1v1 and then when its a 2v1 or 3v1 the GF becomes LESS and LESS tanky for every target added....
It just makes no sense... It should almost be the OTHER way around - the guy with the 2H sword is fairly tanky 1v1 but worse and worse 2v1 3v1 etc....
Where as teh guy with the shield, is a little less tanky 1v1 - maybe less agile etc, however hsi shield would make a BIGGER difference the more targets attack you....
talking this out, I ALMOST think guard meter - unstoppable should be swapped where:
A GWF can turn unstoppable at ANY time at will, however taking damage drops him OUT of unstoppable and it slowly regens (basically current block meter)
A GF cannot block, but as he takes damage, gains block meter for block for X amount of seconds...
ALMOST - obviously it has limitations like not being able to block on command makes no sense but you get the point....
Block is good as it is now. As Protector i have my block up to 90% in T2. Especially against a single big mob the block is wonderful. Making it to a 'Sprint'-alternative would make it OP. First it would benefit Con Tree at most - 1 or 1,5s of blocking while having blockmeter of 4-6s = over 60%, but all incoming damage absorbed? Yeah... He trade Damage for... nothing? That can't be a real decision. His block meter brake fast and so it is fair. He is centered at off not at defensive. Block only big attack or eat the damage. Simple. The protector tree would lose the most with this change. First the blockability of infinite blocking one or two enemies. And second the gain of better DR instead of Damage. The tactician is more like the con in this change.
This is not enough. Compare your suggestion to ALL classes. A GF have a immune status for 4-6s?! What does the DC have? 2-3 dodges with maybe 1,5-2s immunity. Then how he get 0 damage and 0 cc?! What he can't? Failed Class balance. The CW. 2-3 dodges with 1,5s-2s immunity. So what he have else? Nothing? Okay again a fail! GWF have no damage immunity outside of one encounter(which is poorly) and 1 daily. Some CC immunities, but most are dailies. So not a fair comparison, but close. TR. Have 2-3 dodges, which is 1,5-2s immunity. Second an encounter, that grant CC-immunity, then a tab that make him pseudo CC and Damage immune. One daily. DF give only CC-immunity. Close to this, but not always. HR... 5 dodges, but that's it for 2,5-3s or so. One encounter, that give damage and cc-immunity for 0,5s? Again fail.
If this is the stand, the GF win in the most parts with his CC AND Damage immunity status. But this is not the end... not guys. We have 2 at-wills that regain block and two encounter! Has this the other classes? What no? With this you can believe: Stamina based block = OP AND class intern breaking balance thing. So absolute a no-go!
I agree with todesfaelle post.
>>Protector's capstone feat, however, is simply terrible. I don't know how else I can phrase it but its effects doesn't resemble anything that is worthy of calling an "Iron Guard." It has a slow ramp up time, can be hard to stack and we can pretty much forgo this feat in favor of another lesser non-capstone feat.<<
The capstone is really weak compared to the other. But it's not an absolute fail design. If a 5 stack mob(s) lose the aggro against the tank, he(they) deal only 90% of the origin damage to the other partymember. In this way had the protector protected the group against (more) damage.
But yes it need improvements. I would love if they add an DR-boost to it for AC and Def effectiveness(like the portion part of the sentinel capstone).
GWF have no damage immunity outside of one encounter(which is poorly) and 1 daily. Some CC immunities, but most are dailies. So not a fair comparison, but close. TR. Have 2-3 dodges, which is 1,5-2s immunity. Second an encounter, that grant CC-immunity, then a tab that make him pseudo CC and Damage immune. One daily. DF give only CC-immunity. Close to this, but not always. HR... 5 dodges, but that's it for 2,5-3s or so. One encounter, that give damage and cc-immunity for 0,5s? Again fail.
.
GWFs unstoppable that has almost 100% uptime in PVE that grants massive DR (usually puts most over the DR cap) and has NO regen issues....
My GWF is SO much more tanky than my GF. It also does WAY more damage as well...
TRs also have ITC, DF and then can stealth which makes them almost the same as immune to damage. Also dont forget that TRs deflect severity is 75%
And GWFs also get feats to stack up to 50% deflect (yes thats right 50%) They can also stack more HP than a GF can.
So again...
GFs deal less damage and are less tanky than an equally geared GF. Block compared to unstoppable is a JOKE.
So you can block for 4-6 seconds, thats nothing to a GWF who can unstoppable every couple seconds because of the damage they take...
I normally am "maining" my GWF at this point because in pvp my GF just falls so short of being a good class at the moment.
Both GWF and GF are geared to the teeth in perfects/R9s+
My GF has something like 18.3k GS and GWF is around 15k.
After dailies I decided to play around in pvp on my GF - was just in that mood. came up against a PUG team with a two rangers. Kept gettings "rooted" with strong roots, and tried to villians mennace out of it, nope. Then literally in less than one second, the TR/ranger destroyed my block meter. literally one second. and it wasnt short after that I dropped as well.
It really frustrated me because I knew on my Sent GWF I probably wouldnt have even died but ended up killing both of them with Unstoppable stamming, but on my GF, when his block is done, essentially he is done.
This has nothing to do with gear or playstyle, just the facts of the class... The GF just lacks the tools to compete. I know strong roots will get fixed and that was a major reason I died, even without that however just one TR using flurry will rip through block meter.
It really blows my mind at how underwhelming the class is right now.
Tab needs to be stronger and so does block. Arguably, the prones from bull rush need to get toned back a tab - maybe less "air time" which totals less prone time, but the tank class shouldnt really be all that squishy, and right now hes very very arguably one of the squishiest classes to play.
-no dodge
-no escape mechanic
-no movement speed boosts
-no increased DR feats
-no class features that grant obscene deflect
I mean Imagine being able to slot weapon master and bravery on a GF (with the tree feats that upped weapon master)
Youd get 8% flat deflect boost, youd then get 2% deflect each time you hit someone as well as crit AND 5AC for the passive.
Im around 25% defelct + 8% + 10% = 43% deflect, NOW im inline with a sent GWF for deflect...
The 10% crit as well would make vorpal a much more viable build too....
The feats GF have are good, but just fall so far behind... Not to mention I dont see any sets that have +1800 HP on them like the GWF have.
Comments
To TAB/taunt split: target a mob at an edge of the area you want split, back up until you lose the "target" cursor, then take tiny bumps forward until you get it again. Check the other mobs, ideally there will be only ONE with a red cursor for you. Hit "tab", and back up immediately, out of LOS (line of sight) if possible, especially if your target is a caster. The only mobs that will aggro (and come to find you) are the ones "hard" linked to your target.
Couple examples where TAB splits work well:
- MC2; if you want an easier start to the fight, you can pull the bosses adds in 2 separate pulls w/o aggroing him. He WILL aggro if anyone steps off the raised area tho.
- VT courtyard just before Val's room; if needed, you can split all those rows of mobs into 2-4 mob chunks, which can be prudent given the bugged invis wall just before the first boss's area.
etc.
I would rather see Guard moved to stamina meter and spent only while holding block like stamina. THis would provide actual usefulness and skill involved with block. Also would prevent block cheese like DF a guard meter to nothing in seconds, or pulling more than 5 mobs in PVE and having zero block meter in 1 second...
For Tab, I guess one change as I posted above would just be adding a more "perma" mark to it, something LIKE 3 hits before its removed, this would bring alot of value to mark...
That would still leave GF high and dry though since other abilities provide a mark as well...
Maybe turn it into "strong mark" and weak mark - Where GF tab applies a strong mark which has 3 hits till it goes away while a weak mark goes away after 1 hit.
Honestly Id probably still rather have it better than that and maybe a flat duration of time.
So Strong mark lasts 8 seconds flat, weak mark (from threat rush/ET/etc) last for 3 hits - so you dont find yourself spamming this all the time for most classes.
This way the GF will have an easier time holding agro one 1 target and can still use AOE mark tactics for ads. That would be much better than it is now and STILL give pull ability.
Daria - Dwarf Sentinel GWF (mistaken for Halfling a lot)
Karia (aka "The Pug") - Human Combat HR
Kayd - Human Conqueror GF - Retired
i would think gf needs something else on tab tho.
Gannicus Destroyer, GWF Destroyer retired
Kate Beckinsale NB DC, Link NB GF
"There is only one way to be a champion..., Never ...ing lose"
The comment about mark and weapon procs was in response to Devs contemplating a mark component for wms and GF's
*********************************
I firmly believe that GF's need work, both in power and quality of play. That said however......
You may want to look at the way abilities with mark interact with weapon enchants before you do that. To avoid the obligatory nerf after you introduce something OP.
As for sugesstions:
- Switch the tab and shift abilities they don't seem fitting in comparison to other classes.
- Mark (Taunt) becomes a ground targeted leap with aoe mark. This is in line with other classes mobility and escapes, while still maintaining flavour with use of stamina. Also potentially solves your problem with the loss of threatening rush on swordmaster.
- Block becomes Unstoppable. Block is clunky and impedes the use of encounters. If there must be a seperation of the fighters, call it something like 'Hunker Down', give it the mitigation and regen bonuses, but lock a player to the shield related at wills. You don't get the increased dmg of the GWF at wills, instead you get single target threat through agravating strike and longer Unstoppable due to shield slam regen. Locking the player to agrravating strike and shield slam keeps your block animations in line. (Yes this is a lot of work and probably unlikely)
- Make all shield regen abilities now regen or effect Unstoppable/Hunker Down.
- make mark a 5s debuff, the current mechanics are overcomplicated and unnescescary.
Thats an easy solution and you could easily have come up with it,
Create a "divider" - like the TR has halfway through his stamina bar, that shows two "dodges" but about 1/3rd of the way through the GF stamina bar.
This would be the block activation meter where you must be above that mark to block, The other thing is that block is a server side mechanic with a small CD preventing spamming, so you cant really spam block.
its literally the same mechanic used now EXCEPT instead of block meter being used up by taking damage (with cryptics formula) its just purely used up by holding block at all...
So you could have one hundred mobs on you at once and as long as your stamina meter is up, youll be protected. As soon as you run out, nothing.
Why put it on stamina? Because all other classes "shift" is on stamina, and stamina regen abilities they already have to rename "block regen" as well. It makes more sense with the game and the class to make it stamina based.
As for Tab, I agree something else is needed.
There is a animation time on block, try spam it as it for now see how glitch it is for u. so plz be a good GF first before u make pointless and foolish comment. Thank you on behalf of all our actual exp GF.
Exactly,
THe other aspect of stamina/block that works the better is that you can longer hold block indefinitely, it would be on a timer since holding would drain stamina...
This puts even more benefit in +Guard meter since that could = less tam drain when guarding instead.
Puts the skill into block and makes it an actual viable ability...
FaceRoller- regen recovery TR (put on the shelf for now) 14k GS
Supreme CHAOS - IV GF (put on the shelf for now) 16k GS
White Khalifa- tene/hp/regen CW (retired) 11k GS (tene)
Death From Above- TANK ranger 16kGS
(all halfling everything)
Proud rank 6 of: <Enemy Team>
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
From my PvP/PvE point of view the two best suggestions for rework and implementing:
SHIFT - stamina based Guard Meter(Its not measured on the hits u take but on the stamina bar u have)
Tab - Medium Range Jump similiar to Mighty Leap on GWF(since we dont have any escape option like dodge or sprint or invisability the class can really use a good escape ability that is used for tactical placement both in PvP and PvE) the current version of tab is a waste and doesnt provide any help at all.Since we have 1 enounter and 1 at-will which allow AoE mark on decent PvE range i dont see the use of that gigantic Tab Range since a simple CW can just hit a mob from same distance and aggro it so we can kill.
I really like my class and even after Module 2 i still enjoy playing in PvP/PvE....but after all the new Paragons and Clearly OP buffs thats everyclass had ...we didnt get HAMSTER...so i think something really should change so the balance to be considered #fair#
1. Tab (and mark in general): give it multiple charges or make it not come off except when you are crit. It is by FAR the weakest class mechanic in game right now (not to mention apparently weaker than the man-at-arms companion version... wth?).
2. Give us a better (faster) way to recover guard: make regen/recovery give an in-combat regen rate, make all guarded attacks recover based on # mobs hit (also ET), or SOMETHING to make tanking > 3 elite mobs possible for any length of time.
3. GET RID OF THE STUPID LUNGE ANIMATION. This has gotten me in more HAMSTER than anything else on my GF.
4. the guarded stab-at will needs a wider aoe radius. I have to be corner humping the mobs to get it to hit all of them.
5. Encounter powers. Only 3 are actually tank-oriented. The rest are meh cc or single target 'loldps' moves that no tank ever uses. Can I do more than just pretend to stab things, stomp occasionally, and charge runaways?
6. PVP: Really, why I even bother, I have no idea. GF can attempt to stalemate something for a brief period until our guard breaks. We can't kill anything unless we overgear them. We die as soon as our guard breaks (which tends to be fast), from cc. Other than our few prones, we don't bring anything to the team. Fixing the above things might even this out a bit.
Gannicus Destroyer, GWF Destroyer retired
Kate Beckinsale NB DC, Link NB GF
"There is only one way to be a champion..., Never ...ing lose"
Amen. I love PvP'ing vs. Other GF's but the darn crab wars take too long and it usually is decided by a passing third party. Personally, I think block shouldn't be quickly broken by at wills. Changing it to a Stamina bar solves both problems.
Oh yeah, since we get no dodge, IMHO block should block every attack including ice knife if facing. But that is less important.
Well said.
Yeah im really in love with the stamina = block which removes the turtle GF 1v1s since it would remove holding block 24/7 it would also give nice suvivability.
Could potentially have tab give some type of stamina regen where you would block till stamina drains then could tab to refill stamina for more block. Just an idea.
To keep the same mark mechanic and make it even somewhat viable making it more permanent would really help.
A leap sounds interesting. Maybe a mighty leap with an aoe mark would be cool - but only if your block could last linger than 2 seconds versus 3 mobs.
Could always throw a mini knights challenge on tab as well. Keep mark on threat rush and threat shout but add a mini KC for say 20% increased damage receivedand given tthatlasts for say 6 seconds... Only active on one at a time but still spamable... That could work as well especially for solo dps/threat.
The GF as it is right now is a sub par tank, which is why people like playing it as a beat stick much more than a tank. As a tank class, what the Guardian Fighter's currently missing are hard taunt abilities. I find it strange that a tank class like the GF doesn't have hard taunts aside from Enforced Threat. We need more of these Taunt effects, effects that will allow us to generate enough aggro to be able to function well as a tank in PVE. I suggest pairing some of our current existing skills with "Taunt" effects like the one we see from Enforced Threat. Below are some of the skills in which I think would work wonderfully by pairing them up with Taunt abilities.
Knight's Challenge: It's a "challenge" to a foe, so it's pretty reasonable if its current effects add a "Taunt" mechanic to it. It'll be a single-target taunt unlike Enforced Threat's AoE taunt for 5 enemies, which will be useful against strong enemies and bosses.
Aggravating Strike: This is supposed to be a skill that aggravates and taunts our foe into attacking us. And since we thrust our weapons above our shield while using this At-Will, maybe it'll make sense if our hit box got reduced and the range of the at-will got increased, in order to make it look more like a thrust. So far whenever I use this skill, I find myself surprised from time to time that I'm still hitting mobs beside the enemy I'm currently targeting even though they're not getting hit by my weapon.
Crushing Surge: At the last hit, instead of healing us by a meager amount, why not give it a hard taunt instead? This'll make it a bit more desirable at least for PVE. The healing effect doesn't make sense.
At the very least, giving us another skill with a hard taunt would make tanking a whole lot easier. Either that, or increase Enforced Threat's target cap. No one's using that skill for its damage anyway so I'm pretty sure no one will mind if we lose 50% of our damage if we can double the amount of enemies we can hit with it, and maybe increase its range as well. If it's also possible to just remove the target cap and allow us to mark and taunt as much enemies as we can using Enforced Threat, I think it's safe to say that we can just remove the damage Enforced Threat does. The damage we do with it is pretty much negligible anyway.
I also would like to raise some suggestions for the improvements for the Protector Path. Out of all the 3 paragon feat paths, the Protector is the least desirable one due to how its capstone feat grows pale in comparison to Conqueror's and Tactician's. The Conqueror's capstone feat supports the play style of DPS GF's a whole lot by increasing their power based on the amount of Guard they have on their meter. This allows them to deal increased amount of damage and pretty much double the threat due to how threat generation is technically equal to damage output. Tactician's capstone feat is the 2nd best due to the utility it can bring for the GF.
Protector's capstone feat, however, is simply terrible. I don't know how else I can phrase it but its effects doesn't resemble anything that is worthy of calling an "Iron Guard." It has a slow ramp up time, can be hard to stack and we can pretty much forgo this feat in favor of another lesser non-capstone feat.
Which is why I'd also like to suggest to rework Iron Guard to something that will truly make it seem like we have an Iron Guard. An idea that I've been playing with in my head is the ability to Guard all attacks regardless of direction. This means Iron Guard will remove our weakness of being vulnerable when being attacked from behind while guarding.
Another possible rework for Iron Guard would be to increase our Guard Meter's regeneration by 30%. Something that will make tanking a more bearable duty. Kiting is the norm right now for tanking, and technically that's not really tanking since you're running around in circles trying to maintain the aggro you made by running away. An improved Iron Guard would make the tank play style a bit more desirable for more players and could possibly alleviate the current meta for delving parties that require 2 - 3 CW's while forgoing the tank.
I was thinking about this before, and I like alot of your thoughts above.
I almost wonder if the best course of action would be to give GFs encounters alternate uses while holding block or NOT holding block, although all share the same CD like a TR does (not like a HR)
Then you could have Knights challenge - used IN block give a hard defensive ability like a hard taunt, and then the NON shield side, give a dmg boost.
Then you could have "Tab" also change like this as well.
NON-Block "tab" could be used as an offensive ability like a "Leap" a Block "tab" could be a MARK that stays for X amount of time.
I STILL am very convinced that block needs to be stamina based OR if it retains its current guard meter, make it so damage taken does NOT reduce it, only time HELD reduces the block meter.
Then give it a flat "regen" timer OR! YOU could even give block a "boost" to regen guard meter based upon taking damage like a GWF takes damage and receives Determination - A GF could take damage and gain block meter...
Again much like a TR regens "stealth meter" - it would be similar, however maybe HALF the regen rate, however taking damage BOOSTS regen rate.
There are alot of attractive options. Right now a GWF becomes MORE tanky the more people are attacking them. Its funny because (prior to Mod 2) - I had ALOT of 1v1 GF vs GWF experience in which I almost never had any issues with a GWF, the only times I would actually HAVE problems is when a PUG would attack the GWF giving him determination and make it much harder to time my burst DPS... So having that 2v1 scenario WITH a bad player actually WORSENED the fight for myself versus just 1 GWF.
Contrast that with a GF, a 2v1 scenario - regardless of how bad someone is them spamming their "at will" just shreds block meter essentially making it almost worthless and the "tank" class can get absolutely MELTED in seconds. Its even worse with good players...
I play many classes and have been around a long time in this game. I always thought GFs were honestly a strong but fairly balanced class pre mod 2. They were very good in the hands of a skilled person who could use skill to combo/prone well.
It seems now though they fall quite behind and the lack of tankiness with the lack of damage is what hurts the class... The GWF is MORE tanky and deals MORE damage than GFs and BECOMES even more tanky and in some cases can deal MORE damage when attacked by multiple targets (due to no CC). Where as a GF deals LESS damage outright, is LESS tanky 1v1 and then when its a 2v1 or 3v1 the GF becomes LESS and LESS tanky for every target added....
It just makes no sense... It should almost be the OTHER way around - the guy with the 2H sword is fairly tanky 1v1 but worse and worse 2v1 3v1 etc....
Where as teh guy with the shield, is a little less tanky 1v1 - maybe less agile etc, however hsi shield would make a BIGGER difference the more targets attack you....
talking this out, I ALMOST think guard meter - unstoppable should be swapped where:
A GWF can turn unstoppable at ANY time at will, however taking damage drops him OUT of unstoppable and it slowly regens (basically current block meter)
A GF cannot block, but as he takes damage, gains block meter for block for X amount of seconds...
ALMOST - obviously it has limitations like not being able to block on command makes no sense but you get the point....
This is not enough. Compare your suggestion to ALL classes. A GF have a immune status for 4-6s?! What does the DC have? 2-3 dodges with maybe 1,5-2s immunity. Then how he get 0 damage and 0 cc?! What he can't? Failed Class balance. The CW. 2-3 dodges with 1,5s-2s immunity. So what he have else? Nothing? Okay again a fail! GWF have no damage immunity outside of one encounter(which is poorly) and 1 daily. Some CC immunities, but most are dailies. So not a fair comparison, but close. TR. Have 2-3 dodges, which is 1,5-2s immunity. Second an encounter, that grant CC-immunity, then a tab that make him pseudo CC and Damage immune. One daily. DF give only CC-immunity. Close to this, but not always. HR... 5 dodges, but that's it for 2,5-3s or so. One encounter, that give damage and cc-immunity for 0,5s? Again fail.
If this is the stand, the GF win in the most parts with his CC AND Damage immunity status. But this is not the end... not guys. We have 2 at-wills that regain block and two encounter! Has this the other classes? What no? With this you can believe: Stamina based block = OP AND class intern breaking balance thing. So absolute a no-go!
I agree with todesfaelle post.
>>Protector's capstone feat, however, is simply terrible. I don't know how else I can phrase it but its effects doesn't resemble anything that is worthy of calling an "Iron Guard." It has a slow ramp up time, can be hard to stack and we can pretty much forgo this feat in favor of another lesser non-capstone feat.<<
The capstone is really weak compared to the other. But it's not an absolute fail design. If a 5 stack mob(s) lose the aggro against the tank, he(they) deal only 90% of the origin damage to the other partymember. In this way had the protector protected the group against (more) damage.
But yes it need improvements. I would love if they add an DR-boost to it for AC and Def effectiveness(like the portion part of the sentinel capstone).
This shows exactly why you have no clue...
GWFs unstoppable that has almost 100% uptime in PVE that grants massive DR (usually puts most over the DR cap) and has NO regen issues....
My GWF is SO much more tanky than my GF. It also does WAY more damage as well...
TRs also have ITC, DF and then can stealth which makes them almost the same as immune to damage. Also dont forget that TRs deflect severity is 75%
And GWFs also get feats to stack up to 50% deflect (yes thats right 50%) They can also stack more HP than a GF can.
So again...
GFs deal less damage and are less tanky than an equally geared GF. Block compared to unstoppable is a JOKE.
So you can block for 4-6 seconds, thats nothing to a GWF who can unstoppable every couple seconds because of the damage they take...
Both GWF and GF are geared to the teeth in perfects/R9s+
My GF has something like 18.3k GS and GWF is around 15k.
After dailies I decided to play around in pvp on my GF - was just in that mood. came up against a PUG team with a two rangers. Kept gettings "rooted" with strong roots, and tried to villians mennace out of it, nope. Then literally in less than one second, the TR/ranger destroyed my block meter. literally one second. and it wasnt short after that I dropped as well.
It really frustrated me because I knew on my Sent GWF I probably wouldnt have even died but ended up killing both of them with Unstoppable stamming, but on my GF, when his block is done, essentially he is done.
This has nothing to do with gear or playstyle, just the facts of the class... The GF just lacks the tools to compete. I know strong roots will get fixed and that was a major reason I died, even without that however just one TR using flurry will rip through block meter.
It really blows my mind at how underwhelming the class is right now.
Tab needs to be stronger and so does block. Arguably, the prones from bull rush need to get toned back a tab - maybe less "air time" which totals less prone time, but the tank class shouldnt really be all that squishy, and right now hes very very arguably one of the squishiest classes to play.
-no dodge
-no escape mechanic
-no movement speed boosts
-no increased DR feats
-no class features that grant obscene deflect
I mean Imagine being able to slot weapon master and bravery on a GF (with the tree feats that upped weapon master)
Youd get 8% flat deflect boost, youd then get 2% deflect each time you hit someone as well as crit AND 5AC for the passive.
Im around 25% defelct + 8% + 10% = 43% deflect, NOW im inline with a sent GWF for deflect...
The 10% crit as well would make vorpal a much more viable build too....
The feats GF have are good, but just fall so far behind... Not to mention I dont see any sets that have +1800 HP on them like the GWF have.