Add a new pvp level for experienced players, "advance pvp arena." Keep everything exactly the same but change just a few things. When joining the advanced arena, a character antes up a certain amount of glory- 100,500 whatever seems appropriate that goes into a 'pool.' The winners get normal rewards plus the anted up glory is dispersed evenly among the winners. you must have amount of glory to start with to be able to enter. The defeated players lose the glory they put up, so players will try hard and not just sit by campfire after capping a few points.
Then next part is to give titles to whomever gets the most glory bonus won in advanced arenas, A specific title gained for certain glory points achieved over time. The more advanced players would get/appreciate some sort of recognition for being a top pvp player without giving them even more game winning stats/awards. The titles will say it all.
This could move those players that want more out of pvp into this section and leave the regular pvp arena for learning players...
Don't come to pvp if your not ready other wise stop complaining your getting your butt kicked.
If you are dieing to much your doing it wrong. And if your team is just some random person you joined EXPECT not to win. Most of the time its a bot or low gear scored person who doesn't have a clue.
Team 1 is wearing their leveling greens and team 2 is wearing their T2 gear with perfect enchants. The outcome is obvious and tedious. Artifacts just make it more tedious and obvious.
The solution is to make pvp gear that must be worn in pvp and can only be worn in pvp so that players are on a level playing field and the game can actually balanced. A Counterstrike match does not begin with one team having aks and armour and the other having p2000s and a starcraft game does not begin with one player having his base built.
Its the only way to make it fair
Of course it would be resisted by almost everyone. The people who paid the big bucks or put in the big hours want to dump on the people who haven't because they aren't real pvp players. If they were they would play a real pvp game instead of Neverwinter because people who genuinely like pvp games want a fair challenging game. What I find really depressing is the curs on the lower gear levels who want to climb the stupid ladder so they can dump on the other new players and say newb.
Team 1 is wearing their leveling greens and team 2 is wearing their T2 gear with perfect enchants. The outcome is obvious and tedious. Artifacts just make it more tedious and obvious.
The solution is to make pvp gear that must be worn in pvp and can only be worn in pvp so that players are on a level playing field and the game can actually balanced. A Counterstrike match does not begin with one team having aks and armour and the other having p2000s and a starcraft game does not begin with one player having his base built.
Its the only way to make it fair
Of course it would be resisted by almost everyone. The people who paid the big bucks or put in the big hours want to dump on the people who haven't because they aren't real pvp players. If they were they would play a real pvp game instead of Neverwinter because people who genuinely like pvp games want a fair challenging game. What I find really depressing is the curs on the lower gear levels who want to climb the stupid ladder so they can dump on the other new players and say newb.
COngratulations on describing the routine of making PvP 'Un-Fun.'
Look, diversity is what makes the game great fun, a moderately geared good group in this can still do very well, and your team doesn't have to win for you to be able to pick up a lot of glory, easily enough for the T1 PvP gear which will put you right up there.
The game model enables you to pay for stuff, some people will because they spend their time working in R/L to get money rather than spendig all their time grinding in a game to get the the gear.
This whole cas/pro argument is just boring.
The other issue to consider before you start requesting that everyone gets naked for PvP and just fights with medium sized sticks that are all the same with no nails through them is that the T1 and T2 gear from the epic dungeons is actually relatively easy to get a set of if you run them and all those sets are equally viable in PvP.
Not only that, but no one mentions that the Crafted Level 3 gear you can make is actually awesome as well, it doesn't have stat bonuses for a 4-piece but the stat figures on it are very good and enable you to participate in PvP fairly.
What you miss is that even the moderately geared, T2 people in teams facing a small minority of 'Ringers' with level 10 enchants and perfect stuff get rick-rolled as well. Why don't you join a guild and start getting tactical about it? There are a lot more avenues to getting prepped in this game, precisely because PvP isn't segregated to getting geared enough to participate.
That's a lot of words for "I want an advantage that I didn't earn in match"
Every match should start with people having equivalent tools because without that symmetry the result is obviously skewed. Its that simple. Anything to the contrary is just baddies crying for a crutch.
What you want is like a chess game where one player starts with no rooks.
0
chemboy613Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,521Arc User
edited December 2013
The moral of the arugment is this...
If you are not geared
you are not experinced
you dont' have good strategy
you don't have a good build
and you don't have a good premade team
you should expect to lose. Anything else is a delusion.
My theory why high-end players don't write on forums is that it's whining... "i can't get a group, i get steamrolled in PvP, we can't finish spellplague..." etc... Then someone says, ok... to fix your problem do A, B, and C. Then player compaining doesn't want to do the steps to fix the problem.
Why complain in the first place? and seriously guys, it's not _that_ hard to get over the gear barrier. and it should be difficult, btw. Power must be earned, not given. c'mon.
What most of you would find hard is any kind of competition, what you want is to start the marathon 12 miles ahead of the other guy. I can understand that, it would be a nice easy run compared to what he would have to do to win from his starting position but you would just be lying to yourself if you thought you won. Which you are.
Hey! I wanted to give my two-sense. Take it or leave it I suppose. I'm still fairly new to the game, I haven't reached End-Game status yet, but coming from WoW and heavily in the PvP scene (x5 Glad, x1 Rank 1) Once you get to that gear level, everyone is going to be the same. It's always going to be rough for the new players, that's what is going to make them better. You have to learn who's 'artifact' is down, who used it recently, estimated time you have to kill them before they get a second chance in this fight.
I think it makes it interesting. Like stated before though, If you were going to win by skill/choice decision without the 'artifact' ... You'll win with the 'artifact' lol
There is a vast difference between dying because you are inexperienced and dying because you don't have the stats to do anything. If you believe the second isn't a real issue I invite you to buy a bunch of greens from the ah, take off your purps and see how it goes.
Or we could put everyone in the same quality purples with the same quantity of stats and enchants and find out who is actually good and who is actually coasting on gs and secretly rubbish. Its the kind of thing anyone who is into real pvp games should jump at but I suspect I will read more from people who think they have earned opponents with their hands tied behind their backs.
honestly it just makes things a bit grindier while giving you a shiny carrot to chase after.
I've played both types of pvp: the super grindy "spend full gaming time to get anywhere" pvp (Rift, pre f2p at least, everything cost decades of your pvp time and your firstborn to buy), and the completely 'equalizer' non-gear based GW2 structured pvp. And of course WoW, which was middle of the road, and LOTRO which had the most <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> zergfest excuse of a pvp system ('pvmp').
Both gear and non-gear based pvp can be fun, the latter is more fair, the former is more forgiving for bad players with enough gear, up to a point. Both can have their own balance issues at any given time (no game has ever been perfectly class balanced that I know of, and I don't just mean rock/paper/scissors). With no gear (or skill ranking to go by, which is how GW2 spvp used to be) you have no carrot to chase, things get stale on the same 5 maps and you quit, unless you're lucky to have a fun, consistent pvp team. With gear, you get a carrot but then have a disadvantage vs. people with more /played. SO really, it's a personal choice that I think many of you would be surprised to know where you side.
0
pers3phoneBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Hey! I wanted to give my two-sense. Take it or leave it I suppose. I'm still fairly new to the game, I haven't reached End-Game status yet, but coming from WoW and heavily in the PvP scene (x5 Glad, x1 Rank 1) Once you get to that gear level, everyone is going to be the same. It's always going to be rough for the new players, that's what is going to make them better.
In this game people can (almost) get full BiS in a single day without any work in the game. There are no rankings AT ALL, no arena brackets. Any person with enough cash can overgear you in a single day and you have to play catch up for months, and always play with a disadvantage. This game is NOTHING like WOW, which was fair - you had skills, you advanced in upper echelons, you had access to better PvP gear. Here you have access to everything in the AH.
There's not even basic matchmaking here, so full BiS premades go against full newbies casual pugs and stomp them like there's no tomorrow.
There are no PvP seasons that reset periodically so you can start anew either...
I hope you can see where I'm coming from, ex-WoW player to ex-WoW player.
In this game people can (almost) get full BiS in a single day without any work in the game. There are no rankings AT ALL, no arena brackets. Any person with enough cash can overgear you in a single day and you have to play catch up for months, and always play with a disadvantage. This game is NOTHING like WOW, which was fair - you had skills, you advanced in upper echelons, you had access to better PvP gear. Here you have access to everything in the AH.
There's not even basic matchmaking here, so full BiS premades go against full newbies casual pugs and stomp them like there's no tomorrow.
There are no PvP seasons that reset periodically so you can start anew either...
I hope you can see where I'm coming from, ex-WoW player to ex-WoW player.
ex-WoW Player to ex-WoW Player = WoW gives free Epics and is designed for super casual players.
I've been playing NW since Week 1 Beta and I'm not even full Rank 10's. Sure I could go P2W and buy all of my rank 10's for cash but guess what....
I can go naked with just sword/shield and same for my teammates and we can destroy most premades. Gear only carry's you and your team so far, everything else is teamwork and skill.
Trying to compare WoW Glad Tier players to NW PvP community is laughable. The average PvP community is below 1500 with majority of upper tier 1500 -1900 players with only a handful of 2k+ players for their classes.
The only thing that NW needs is a Bronze, Sliver, Gold tiers.
ex-WoW Player to ex-WoW Player = WoW gives free Epics and is designed for super casual players.
I've been playing NW since Week 1 Beta and I'm not even full Rank 10's. Sure I could go P2W and buy all of my rank 10's for cash but guess what....
I can go naked with just sword/shield and same for my teammates and we can destroy most premades. Gear only carry's you and your team so far, everything else is teamwork and skill.
Trying to compare WoW Glad Tier players to NW PvP community is laughable. The average PvP community is below 1500 with majority of upper tier 1500 -1900 players with only a handful of 2k+ players for their classes.
The only thing that NW needs is a Bronze, Sliver, Gold tiers.
NWO is ULTRA casual vs WoW. WoW has proper PvP which is tough as hell in upper brackets, WoW has heroic raiding that is ultra challenging the proper way, not "spawn more adds and red zones". NWO has what? An arguably longer grind for BiS? Common. WoW is casual where the largest MMO out there should be, leveling and so on. If you're truly hardcore, you gonna have challenges, and you will be able to show off in game when you beat them, with special mounts, titles and gear. People will know you're a good player, in NWO you can never tell this, as gear might always equate cash.
The "free" epics are WoW's way to help newcomers catch up. It is a proper design decision IMO. I liked the system since first welfare items were introduced back in Burning Crusade, and I was a hardcore raider, they did nothing for me then. However I was right to like them, because after I had to take a pause from the game for 2 months, when I returned it was the welfare items that allowed me to get right back into my raiding team and experience the new content. They helped me yet again in Cataclysm as I came late in the expansion after missing the whole WotLK. So I thank the designer that had this brilliant idea. In NWO you get NOTHING, but an ever-growing deep split between players, if I miss 2 years in NWO I'll be forever lost behind if I don't cough up the cash.
As for how far BiS gear can take you, I can make an approximation: there are probably 5-8 guilds at most in the game that can put a full BiS Rank 10s team in the arena. Since these players PvP the most, they are also usually (but not always) the most skilled. So these two come together most of the times. Why would one want to buy BiS? To queue for pug games? Of course not. I agree teamwork is also extremely important, no contest here.
NWO is ULTRA casual vs WoW. WoW has proper PvP which is tough as hell in upper brackets, WoW has heroic raiding that is ultra challenging the proper way, not "spawn more adds and red zones". NWO has what? An arguably longer grind for BiS? Common. WoW is casual where the largest MMO out there should be, leveling and so on. If you're truly hardcore, you gonna have challenges, and you will be able to show off in game when you beat them, with special mounts, titles and gear. People will know you're a good player, in NWO you can never tell this, as gear might always equate cash.
The "free" epics are WoW's way to help newcomers catch up. It is a proper design decision IMO. I liked the system since first welfare items were introduced back in Burning Crusade, and I was a hardcore raider, they did nothing for me then. However I was right to like them, because after I had to take a pause from the game for 2 months, when I returned it was the welfare items that allowed me to get right back into my raiding team and experience the new content. They helped me yet again in Cataclysm as I came late in the expansion after missing the whole WotLK. So I thank the designer that had this brilliant idea. In NWO you get NOTHING, but an ever-growing deep split between players, if I miss 2 years in NWO I'll be forever lost behind if I don't cough up the cash.
As for how far BiS gear can take you, I can make an approximation: there are probably 5-8 guilds at most in the game that can put a full BiS Rank 10s team in the arena. Since these players PvP the most, they are also usually (but not always) the most skilled. So these two come together most of the times. Why would one want to buy BiS? To queue for pug games? Of course not. I agree teamwork is also extremely important, no contest here.
I played wow for 7 years straight from Classic till CATA and my team got server 1st 4/5 Classes. I know hardcore from WoW but the game is uber casual and lost it's hardcore base a long time ago. You're prof as it couldn't even hold your attention from expansion to expansion as gearing in WoW is so easy. 1st week of CATA I was Heroic Capped & faction capped with Exalted in every faction. Then starts the boring grind of Raiding to get gear that means nothing next major patch as it replaces your previous set.
In NW the grind is the gear and enchants not some boring Achievements that means nothing. Also gearing up is pretty simple and just a little time consuming farming instances, PvP, GG or AH. Then once you get Rank 7 enchants & a greater armor/weapon enchant you are pretty much set competitive. You don't need Rank 10's or Perfect as the difference is minimal.
0
pers3phoneBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited December 2013
I'm here because I wanted to play Western MMO, not Asian-style pandaland. This was a change that I just couldn't endure, it was too far removed from the classic Warcraft lore I loved. I have friends that tell me raiding has gotten even better though. I won't lie, free vs USD/month also contributes a lot.
Truth is, if instead of pandaland we would have had some Emerald Dream, Old Gods or Titans-themed expansion with a more serious tone, I'd still be playing WoW.
In a game with two equally skilled teams the outcome should be close enough to random. Give one side better gear and the probable outcome is going to get lopsided quickly. Its that simple.
This would be obvious to anyone that has played competitive games but you all argue on the assumption that there will be one team that has skills and one that doesn't so it doesn't matter that they have better gear because they were going to lose or win anyway. To not make stupid errors in judgement I suggest taking the balanced game as your baseline.
Comments
Then next part is to give titles to whomever gets the most glory bonus won in advanced arenas, A specific title gained for certain glory points achieved over time. The more advanced players would get/appreciate some sort of recognition for being a top pvp player without giving them even more game winning stats/awards. The titles will say it all.
This could move those players that want more out of pvp into this section and leave the regular pvp arena for learning players...
If you are dieing to much your doing it wrong. And if your team is just some random person you joined EXPECT not to win. Most of the time its a bot or low gear scored person who doesn't have a clue.
The solution is to make pvp gear that must be worn in pvp and can only be worn in pvp so that players are on a level playing field and the game can actually balanced. A Counterstrike match does not begin with one team having aks and armour and the other having p2000s and a starcraft game does not begin with one player having his base built.
Its the only way to make it fair
Of course it would be resisted by almost everyone. The people who paid the big bucks or put in the big hours want to dump on the people who haven't because they aren't real pvp players. If they were they would play a real pvp game instead of Neverwinter because people who genuinely like pvp games want a fair challenging game. What I find really depressing is the curs on the lower gear levels who want to climb the stupid ladder so they can dump on the other new players and say newb.
Its a game, friend. The more appropriate analogy would be you don't bring a gun to a boxing match.
COngratulations on describing the routine of making PvP 'Un-Fun.'
Look, diversity is what makes the game great fun, a moderately geared good group in this can still do very well, and your team doesn't have to win for you to be able to pick up a lot of glory, easily enough for the T1 PvP gear which will put you right up there.
The game model enables you to pay for stuff, some people will because they spend their time working in R/L to get money rather than spendig all their time grinding in a game to get the the gear.
This whole cas/pro argument is just boring.
The other issue to consider before you start requesting that everyone gets naked for PvP and just fights with medium sized sticks that are all the same with no nails through them is that the T1 and T2 gear from the epic dungeons is actually relatively easy to get a set of if you run them and all those sets are equally viable in PvP.
Not only that, but no one mentions that the Crafted Level 3 gear you can make is actually awesome as well, it doesn't have stat bonuses for a 4-piece but the stat figures on it are very good and enable you to participate in PvP fairly.
What you miss is that even the moderately geared, T2 people in teams facing a small minority of 'Ringers' with level 10 enchants and perfect stuff get rick-rolled as well. Why don't you join a guild and start getting tactical about it? There are a lot more avenues to getting prepped in this game, precisely because PvP isn't segregated to getting geared enough to participate.
Every match should start with people having equivalent tools because without that symmetry the result is obviously skewed. Its that simple. Anything to the contrary is just baddies crying for a crutch.
What you want is like a chess game where one player starts with no rooks.
If you are not geared
you are not experinced
you dont' have good strategy
you don't have a good build
and you don't have a good premade team
you should expect to lose. Anything else is a delusion.
My theory why high-end players don't write on forums is that it's whining... "i can't get a group, i get steamrolled in PvP, we can't finish spellplague..." etc... Then someone says, ok... to fix your problem do A, B, and C. Then player compaining doesn't want to do the steps to fix the problem.
Why complain in the first place? and seriously guys, it's not _that_ hard to get over the gear barrier. and it should be difficult, btw. Power must be earned, not given. c'mon.
Everything you need to know about CW:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?780981-Chem-s-CW-Compendium-Everything-you-need-to-know
LoL
You have to love people who have never been near a game that is actually competitive.
I think it makes it interesting. Like stated before though, If you were going to win by skill/choice decision without the 'artifact' ... You'll win with the 'artifact' lol
Or we could put everyone in the same quality purples with the same quantity of stats and enchants and find out who is actually good and who is actually coasting on gs and secretly rubbish. Its the kind of thing anyone who is into real pvp games should jump at but I suspect I will read more from people who think they have earned opponents with their hands tied behind their backs.
I've played both types of pvp: the super grindy "spend full gaming time to get anywhere" pvp (Rift, pre f2p at least, everything cost decades of your pvp time and your firstborn to buy), and the completely 'equalizer' non-gear based GW2 structured pvp. And of course WoW, which was middle of the road, and LOTRO which had the most <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> zergfest excuse of a pvp system ('pvmp').
Both gear and non-gear based pvp can be fun, the latter is more fair, the former is more forgiving for bad players with enough gear, up to a point. Both can have their own balance issues at any given time (no game has ever been perfectly class balanced that I know of, and I don't just mean rock/paper/scissors). With no gear (or skill ranking to go by, which is how GW2 spvp used to be) you have no carrot to chase, things get stale on the same 5 maps and you quit, unless you're lucky to have a fun, consistent pvp team. With gear, you get a carrot but then have a disadvantage vs. people with more /played. SO really, it's a personal choice that I think many of you would be surprised to know where you side.
In this game people can (almost) get full BiS in a single day without any work in the game. There are no rankings AT ALL, no arena brackets. Any person with enough cash can overgear you in a single day and you have to play catch up for months, and always play with a disadvantage. This game is NOTHING like WOW, which was fair - you had skills, you advanced in upper echelons, you had access to better PvP gear. Here you have access to everything in the AH.
There's not even basic matchmaking here, so full BiS premades go against full newbies casual pugs and stomp them like there's no tomorrow.
There are no PvP seasons that reset periodically so you can start anew either...
I hope you can see where I'm coming from, ex-WoW player to ex-WoW player.
ex-WoW Player to ex-WoW Player = WoW gives free Epics and is designed for super casual players.
I've been playing NW since Week 1 Beta and I'm not even full Rank 10's. Sure I could go P2W and buy all of my rank 10's for cash but guess what....
I can go naked with just sword/shield and same for my teammates and we can destroy most premades. Gear only carry's you and your team so far, everything else is teamwork and skill.
Trying to compare WoW Glad Tier players to NW PvP community is laughable. The average PvP community is below 1500 with majority of upper tier 1500 -1900 players with only a handful of 2k+ players for their classes.
The only thing that NW needs is a Bronze, Sliver, Gold tiers.
NWO is ULTRA casual vs WoW. WoW has proper PvP which is tough as hell in upper brackets, WoW has heroic raiding that is ultra challenging the proper way, not "spawn more adds and red zones". NWO has what? An arguably longer grind for BiS? Common. WoW is casual where the largest MMO out there should be, leveling and so on. If you're truly hardcore, you gonna have challenges, and you will be able to show off in game when you beat them, with special mounts, titles and gear. People will know you're a good player, in NWO you can never tell this, as gear might always equate cash.
The "free" epics are WoW's way to help newcomers catch up. It is a proper design decision IMO. I liked the system since first welfare items were introduced back in Burning Crusade, and I was a hardcore raider, they did nothing for me then. However I was right to like them, because after I had to take a pause from the game for 2 months, when I returned it was the welfare items that allowed me to get right back into my raiding team and experience the new content. They helped me yet again in Cataclysm as I came late in the expansion after missing the whole WotLK. So I thank the designer that had this brilliant idea. In NWO you get NOTHING, but an ever-growing deep split between players, if I miss 2 years in NWO I'll be forever lost behind if I don't cough up the cash.
As for how far BiS gear can take you, I can make an approximation: there are probably 5-8 guilds at most in the game that can put a full BiS Rank 10s team in the arena. Since these players PvP the most, they are also usually (but not always) the most skilled. So these two come together most of the times. Why would one want to buy BiS? To queue for pug games? Of course not. I agree teamwork is also extremely important, no contest here.
I played wow for 7 years straight from Classic till CATA and my team got server 1st 4/5 Classes. I know hardcore from WoW but the game is uber casual and lost it's hardcore base a long time ago. You're prof as it couldn't even hold your attention from expansion to expansion as gearing in WoW is so easy. 1st week of CATA I was Heroic Capped & faction capped with Exalted in every faction. Then starts the boring grind of Raiding to get gear that means nothing next major patch as it replaces your previous set.
In NW the grind is the gear and enchants not some boring Achievements that means nothing. Also gearing up is pretty simple and just a little time consuming farming instances, PvP, GG or AH. Then once you get Rank 7 enchants & a greater armor/weapon enchant you are pretty much set competitive. You don't need Rank 10's or Perfect as the difference is minimal.
Truth is, if instead of pandaland we would have had some Emerald Dream, Old Gods or Titans-themed expansion with a more serious tone, I'd still be playing WoW.
99% of things I've heard you say over the course of this game RE: PvP turned out to be stuff you couldn't back up.
This would be that 1% of you being totally right.
Well, if I ignore the grammar of your sentence, that is
This would be obvious to anyone that has played competitive games but you all argue on the assumption that there will be one team that has skills and one that doesn't so it doesn't matter that they have better gear because they were going to lose or win anyway. To not make stupid errors in judgement I suggest taking the balanced game as your baseline.