Artifacts game breaking for PVP?

lucidproph3cy · December 2013

So I want to see how everyone feels about the artifact system in PvP. I personally think it breaks it seeing someone goes from no life to full life with a single artifact is pretty <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> and I can't see why in the world dev's would bring these things in there. Now you don't have to sacrifice any dps for regen or to be a tank. Also certain artifacts are definitely OP compared to other ones. Games now last 30 minutes if they are played which is forever because you can't kill someone or not long at all cause a unkillable gwf that deals good damage or a 14k tr just crushing people's faces. I know I can handle it my character's are definitely geared and ready for PVP but newcomers have such a huge wall I feel we will not get any new players. I remember thinking it was unfair when I first started playing now I can only imagine. I think artifacts should be removed from PVP they are just way to powerful. But they definitely are needed in PVE.

ikeepit3hunna · December 2013

The gap is intended between vets and new ppl. But artifacts are easy to lvl to rare and epic so it shouldn't be a problem really

shadow5930 · December 2013

Artifacts are an easy access tool that everyone (new players too) get access to. It helps all of them do better. Taking that away, will hinder new players, not help.

lifesimages · December 2013

Well seeing how you could easily acquire that arftifact as well doesn't seem game breaking to me. It's not like they are unattainable to the masses.

IF you don't like people using it, use it too. IF you were going to win the fight anyway, you still will. They're just delaying their death, or hoping a team mate will come by and help them kill you. At which point (circumstances provided) you need to hope your team can help you, OR you can tank 2/3 people long enough for your team to cap.

I don't think it's as game breaking as people hitting 20-25k+ with dailies (more HP than most chars have)

gannicsgladiator · December 2013

actually with every class doing so much more dps now, especially the tankers, i think the healing artefacts together with soulforged are delaying a little bit the deaths and making the game more fun.

pers3phone · December 2013

As the Cryptic devs have a hard time balancing ANYTHING for PvP, artifacts add yet another layer of complications.

I'd remove them from PvP (and maybe the whole game) this very second, regardless of the fact that I like mines a lot.

xelliz · December 2013

I personally don't think they are any more or less game breaking than enchants but added with enchants it just compounds the issue. While it is true they are available to everyone as some people have stated, so are enchants. However, again its less of an issue about who has what, as opposed to what rank or level these items are.

Sure its easy to do a quest and for some people getting 24k glory is nothing. However, the same people who have rank 8/9/10 and Greater/Perfect enchants are the same that will have 3 Epic/Legendary artifacts. Most of the population will have 1 or 2 Uncommon or maybe Rare to go along with their rank 5/6 and lesser/normal enchants.

dante123pl · December 2013

so veterans have to suffer cause of new QQomers??

rabbinicus · December 2013

I don't find them to be gamebreaking at all. In particular the Lantern seems to be intended for PvP to force TR's to up their gameplay since it slices right through stealth at close range.

lucidproph3cy · December 2013

Definitely not saying the veterans have to suffer but this creates a huge gap in pvp between veterans and new comers and what happens when there are less and less new comers? The game dies, as stated about the general population will not have legendary or epic artifacts and this is a large gap not only in GS but in benefit the artifact gives you. There is already a large gap in pve due to fixes to dungeons making it hard for new comers to gear without changes the relative swarm the party with ads game mechanics. I don't think we need a larger gap especially in pvp when enchants are large enough already. To be honest since they added them to pvp I haven't played as much just for the fact that you can have everything you want and no need to sacrifice anything. But that's just what I believe.

dhuras1 · December 2013

someone goes from no life to full life with a single artifact

Which ones do that? All I have is that healing waters one. It only gives me about 4K of my 21K HP, over 6 seconds.

yokihiro · December 2013

the problem is not 1 artifact but 3 artifacts at orange level. one of them can be acquired by everyone easily by doing the quest. the second can be bought by doing a little more pvp. the right mixture of them, the ones that come from the epics are harder to get. also to level them to orange, even to purple. for the normal casual player this is a hard task already with all the marks needed.

the real problem aren't the click effects anyway but the stats they give you, especially for epic and legendary. that is what makes them interesting and tough in pvp. when someone with 3 orange artifacts fights against someone with one green artifact the stats alone on them are making the huge difference. I saw my GS going up a lot only by levelling one artifact and it is not even blue.

dante123pl · December 2013

yokihiro wrote: »

the problem is not 1 artifact but 3 artifacts at orange level. one of them can be acquired by everyone easily by doing the quest. the second can be bought by doing a little more pvp. the right mixture of them, the ones that come from the epics are harder to get. also to level them to orange, even to purple. for the normal casual player this is a hard task already with all the marks needed.

the real problem aren't the click effects anyway but the stats they give you, especially for epic and legendary. that is what makes them interesting and tough in pvp. when someone with 3 orange artifacts fights against someone with one green artifact the stats alone on them are making the huge difference. I saw my GS going up a lot only by levelling one artifact and it is not even blue.

so what if some 1 max all 3 artifacts nobody forces u to do so.
Also they farmed or paid to max it if u cant do the same just dont post.

slushpsycho · December 2013

It makes a difference in higher lvl game play.
Otherwise I say work on your skill first.

yokihiro · December 2013

dante123pl wrote: »

so what if some 1 max all 3 artifacts nobody forces u to do so.
Also they farmed or paid to max it if u cant do the same just dont post.

So you say either I should farm like the others do or I should not post nor play?

Only because someone dumped money into this game, it justifies that he can roflstomp anyone else in the game that hasn't put as many money into this game?

You know that every free2play game lives from players also that are not grinding stuff, not paying lots of money? If only those would play the game that farm all day long and spend a lot real money on this game there wouldn't be enough players in this game for them to actually play it. This would be some elite game where only some thousand players would play.

Also casual players are driven away by games that grow an elite base that is so far out of reach for every other player that they lose every motivation to stay in the game. In a game that places casual players and elite players in the same PVP environment no one will be happy. Even the one that paid and grinded a lot surely has no fun waiting 8 minutes with no enemy showing up in PVP in 6 of 10 games all the time. For waiting somewhere you don't need epics, legendary and perfect enchants.

It is like if one is the absolute pro in Billard and walks into a bar and challenges normal players and they soon realize that they always lose. If he continues to do this day after day guess how many people will be up for a challenge after one week.

strawgod · December 2013

I say just divide pvp up by gear score

problem solved
~Post 60 pvp of course

gannicsgladiator · December 2013

yokihiro wrote: »

So you say either I should farm like the others do or I should not post nor play?

Only because someone dumped money into this game, it justifies that he can roflstomp anyone else in the game that hasn't put as many money into this game?

You know that every free2play game lives from players also that are not grinding stuff, not paying lots of money? If only those would play the game that farm all day long and spend a lot real money on this game there wouldn't be enough players in this game for them to actually play it. This would be some elite game where only some thousand players would play.

Also casual players are driven away by games that grow an elite base that is so far out of reach for every other player that they lose every motivation to stay in the game. In a game that places casual players and elite players in the same PVP environment no one will be happy. Even the one that paid and grinded a lot surely has no fun waiting 8 minutes with no enemy showing up in PVP in 6 of 10 games all the time. For waiting somewhere you don't need epics, legendary and perfect enchants.

It is like if one is the absolute pro in Billard and walks into a bar and challenges normal players and they soon realize that they always lose. If he continues to do this day after day guess how many people will be up for a challenge after one week.

you are saying that they should be nerfed or don't exist just because casual players can't upgrade them as more active players or cashers?
mhmmm

corpsemaker86 · December 2013

name 1 person who has 3 orange artifacts...
I hope u realize how much ad it costs to make a single legendary.
From levels 75+ a stack of 99 rank 5s only brings you up one level.
At level 90+ you need over 150k refine points per level. more as you approach level 100
We are talking like 450k ad per level. this is no joke.

Probably need 30million - 40 million AD to make 3 orange artifacts. and that's not even counting the epic marks of potency which will cost probably another 2.5 million

even the most casual of players can make blue artifacts. and that's where the bulk of the stats come from. anyone can grind 24k glory even casual players so they are handed 2 artifacts right out the gate

lucidproph3cy · December 2013

They definitely don't need to be nerfed. I think they are highly needed for pve and definitely contributes to the game. I would like to see them removed from PVP because it ads to the gap between new and old players. Also you can have almost every stat. Gwf sent used to use wet noodles as swords but that was because they were unkillable/ tanky (the none tene ones). I don't see that cost anymore due to artifacts. Same can be said for other classes. When and if the next module is PVP and they add other modes have fun killing a sent gwf with your flag if that is added (CTF). As well as other class builds. Overall I just think before the next module a lot of balancing needs to be done to make it enjoyable for new and old players and that the artifact system needs to be looked at. I would like them to find a middle ground that will make new and old players happy. I hope though that they don't take the usual cryptic manner in things and wait months while people invest so much time and money to change them next module like they have done in the past. I just hate to see new players at such a disadvantage.

klayl771 · December 2013

Artifact adds dept to the game removing them from either pvp or pve will create a boring gameplay. Good for those who likes boring gameplay.

yokihiro · December 2013

gannicsgladiator wrote: »

you are saying that they should be nerfed or don't exist just because casual players can't upgrade them as more active players or cashers?
mhmmm

No, I say you can't throw longterm players and new players in the same environment for PVP when one type of player has everything available while new players don't. New or casual players need time to close the gap to elite players. If one has all 3 artifacts, Sharandar boons, Dread Ring boons, all high end enchants and epic gear while new players play PVP with their T1 PVP gear there is hardly any chance to be competitive anymore. At the start of the game all players were at the same level. The more stuff they add with more time sinks attached the wider the gap becomes for new players to acquire only the basic stuff that is needed for PVP and even for PVE.

I have some alts with blue gear and mixed T1 PVP gear which I slowly equip when I don't play my main and one guy said to me last time that it makes him mad to see that I run PVP with blue gear. Yes thanks, so I should first grind 6 months for epics, artifacts, enchants to be allowed to queue for 60s PVP?

vortix44 · December 2013

yokihiro wrote: »

If one has all 3 artifacts, Sharandar boons, Dread Ring boons, all high end enchants and epic gear while new players play PVP with their T1 PVP gear

You need glory to get the T1 pvp gear. The new players are in green/blue gear. Not only is it impossible for them to win the pvp session, but even getting the needed 100 points is quite a challenge.

Very distinct, separate queues are needed for PvP.

ortzhy · December 2013

gannicsgladiator wrote: »

you are saying that they should be nerfed or don't exist just because casual players can't upgrade them as more active players or cashers?
mhmmm

noone like to lose! That is a fact, especially those that are more inclined into pvp (competitive by nature). When i first get into the game, even more so in a f2p one, i am just testing the game. Game does great till u hit lvl 60 and u go into a pvp match where u are getting alone vs a premade. What would i think about the game then? "Man this is such a ****... b-bye!"
Is the company losing money? OFC!!! And alot tbh cause they lose all the casual players. Elite is just a small minority and is useful only on promoting stuff, the heavy money comes from micro transactions like buying a costume, a pet or opening some boxes. PvP should be equal or at least give u the feeling that u stand a chance of winning.

xelliz · December 2013

dante123pl wrote: »

so what if some 1 max all 3 artifacts nobody forces u to do so.
Also they farmed or paid to max it if u cant do the same just dont post.

WTF does this even mean? Maybe you should not post garbage instead.

The problem is not whether or not anyone is forcing anyone else to get 3 artifacts to legendary. Everyone wants to do this anyway. Its that artifacts just create another gear issue with PVP and so far PVP has been all but ignored.

I personally love artifacts and I am cool with them working in PVP, but that doesn't change the fact that if 1 person has a single green and someone else has 3 legendary there is a big gear issue. Since NW's PVP you can't just not fight people the only option is to quit the match and there are already enough pvp quitters without this.

pando83 · December 2013

gannicsgladiator wrote: »

actually with every class doing so much more dps now, especially the tankers, i think the healing artefacts together with soulforged are delaying a little bit the deaths and making the game more fun.

This. Deaths are delayed, gameplay is more fun.
Remember that in domination you're not going for the kills. I think too many players forget about this. You can quite easily see who's an esperienced PvPer and who's a casual or newbie PvPer by that. The good ones go for the points, not for the kills, and really don't care that much if their prey can get some health back and flee or fight a bit more. It just makes it more challenging and more fun.

Before module 2 deaths in PvP, except for tanky builds or very skilled TRs, were fast. Very fast. What we have now is longer fights, which, to me, means more fun and more tactic.
On the other side, the increased damage of deep gash and increased overall DPS for all classes reduced the efficiency of regeneration, making the regeneration tanks easier to kill. They have more attack power thanks to regen artifacts, but their tankyness was not boosted enough to keep up with the increased DPS. Result, you can bring their health down much, much faster. New soulforged and healing artifacts make them last a bit longer, but their survivability is decreased.

Also, CWs said new soulforged was worst for them. I don't think so. With old SF they could be one shotted and SF would not activate. Now, they can be 1 shotted, come back to life with what seem to be a bit of immunity/ DR, activate healing artifact+ potions + dodge and cc the revealed TR. With IV GWFs and HRs being able to hunt TRs down easily, CWs imo have better chances in PvP. They just need to play well.

Overall ,less one-shots, longer fights with every class able to slot regeneration from artifacts and heal with potions and artifacts.

momothebored · December 2013

Of course not.

Why would you erode a competitive advantage people PAY money for?

They pay to win either with money or time.

Why would they invest in a game only to be have to compete with everyone else at the same gear level?

Pretty stupid, not thought out.

vortix44 wrote: »

You need glory to get the T1 pvp gear. The new players are in green/blue gear. Not only is it impossible for them to win the pvp session, but even getting the needed 100 points is quite a challenge.

Very distinct, separate queues are needed for PvP.

nearlydiamond · December 2013

It's only game breaking if some people can have it and not others.
As everyone can have it it's entirely fair.

I think the ranged damage, and control the Hunter/Rangers are putting out is doing more harm to PvP at present...

willsommers · December 2013

Honestly, for this game to have any type of truly "competitive" play gear needs to be turned off totally in PVP. That would anger many that want to feel "powerful", but leveling the gear playing ground and making it about builds, strategy more than gear would make it a competitive environment. Right now the only competition is who can get the highest ranking enchantments/artifacts. It's more player vs gear grind than player vs player in this game.

pers3phone · December 2013

nearlydiamond wrote: »

It's only game breaking if some people can have it and not others.
As everyone can have it it's entirely fair.

Incomplete, hence wrong.

It is FAIR if everybody is able to have the epic/legendary artifacts after they put up the same amount of in-game "work".

If somebody can shortcut to legendary artifact with money, while another needs 2 months to level it (after 2 months, new module, new content, new things to farm for... catch my drift?), then it is NO LONGER FAIR.

No shortcuts.

chemboy613 · December 2013

Ah, more whining here.

I must say, thank god for artifacts. There are times when I'm on CW and I am not blindsided and 3-shot, now i can just escape and not die instantly. This is best, because the absolute most annoying thing is being blindsided and dead before you can do anything.

This thread though, seems to be the same as so many threads.

"I'm a casual player, I don't have great gear, I don't want to spend money, and I don't want to spend time." Side note - your spec and playstyle are probably sub-par as well. and now complain about getting pwned by experienced players with great gear.

Of course you are going to get pwned. and BTW, if you are on a team, your teammates will get pwned. If I pug PvP I get in the habit of leaving matches where people have under 12k GS. I remember once i was in a PvP, this TR couldn't crit lashing blade over 10k to a CW, and he died sssssssssoooooooooooo easy. I told him that his gear was trash, and he said, what? 11k GS is trash?

I'm sorry, 11k GS _is_ trash.

As for the artifacts, they are painfully easy to get (24k glory or a quest), they make a huge difference in play (skull is a lifesaver), and the points they add are really nice.

As for leveling up to purple - it's something around 30k refining points to get to blue, and I believe somewhere around 110k refining points from blue to purple, plus the upgrades. So that's about 150K or 500-600k for the levels (servers down at the moment), and the upgrade is probably around 250k per upgrade. The expensive part is the mark of power, which is a rare drop from _any_ epic dungeon boss. This, by the way, is giving people reasons to run things outside of DD and to do dungeons that are lots of fun and easy (pirate king) instead of focusing on only those instances that are profitable (not sure which ones right now, honestly) :S

So it ends up costing abotu 1.2M for a purple artifact. Actually, considering how amazing a pruple artifact is, that is relatively a steal. That's about the upgrade of 2-3 gemsf rom 7 to 8 (not as good), upgrading one pet to purple and one to blue (not as good), or maybe upgrading a lesser enchant to a normal one (assuming vorpal/bark/soul/plaguefire), which might acutally not be quite as good. So actually ugprading is a great way to spend your diamonds!

That said, 1.2M is not that bad either. considering a good drop from a T1 sells for 1M, split 5 ways is 200k, so you only need 6 good T2 drops. While these are rare, you are making diamonds and refining points from seals, shards, item drops, DD chests, etc... all this adds up quite nicely and it ends up being not so bad. It's the kind of thing that a casual, but efficent, player could do in a week.

How it's affecting PvP - i think it comes with a long problem in PvP - there is no matching system. I would say about 70% of the time my teams run into n00bs and we just kill them without trying. I have had three or four matches in a row where we win something like 1000-30. Sometimes they put up a fight and we win 1000-600 (maybe 10%), there are matches where we lose 600-1000 (10%). and then there are times we run into premade teams with PvP specialists and lose embarassingly (10%).

It is those close matches i wish there were more of. It's more fun than you actually have to work to win.

It's my opinion that artifacts don't break PvP, but i wish there was some sort of ranking and matching system so that we could be matches with similarly skilled players.

A note though - when i started and I tried playing PvP in my t1 gear (I never wore blue gear because I did my dailies while leveling and that's enough diamonds to get rid of blues and greens - costs about 100k), I would get absolutely smacked and have no fun, so every DD i ran for you gear. When my guild wouldn't run it, i would pug and grind for gear. I took my share of drops, saved, bought my ancient set, bought my vorpal, and ran every DD until I had decent enough gear to do endgame. The way the system is set up now it is _so easy_ to gear up compared to before. I know people who have gotten their T2 set in two or three days, and even if they only ran one DD a day (2-3 dungeons), you could gear up in a week or two. It's not actually that hard.

That said, I can see the frustration. It would take months of daily grinding or or expenditures of a few hundred dollars to match where a veteran is today. But just like anything else, if someone invests time money and effort into something, it's highly likely they perform superior to someone who doesn't make the same investment. It is true in all phases of the world, and it is still true in neverwinter. It's almost a "what else would you expect" situation.

In any complex human system, these disparities are inevitable. It should not be surprising to anyone that these things exist.

Artifacts game breaking for PVP?

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