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GF Tab Needs a rework
ayroux
Member Posts: 4,271 Arc User
I saw a thread with DEV response in the PTR threads about this, but not sure exactly where it was.
basically now that GWFs have a nice way of marking targets via threat rush and IBS, they also have a feat to deal 15% MORE dmg to marked targets essentially making mark even more powerful for them than GFs (as a GF I would take 15% more dmg to mark targets and rely on threat rush to mark, over being able to mark at will)
The DEVs have mentioned that Mark needs a rework.
So what I am here to propose goes RIGHT inline with that and something else that could use a balance on GF - Block.
Block is Simple - Give GFs a stamina bar, blocking drains stamina and cannot "break". There are two options here:
1) a SLOW drain that is sped up taking damage - a little like the current system
2) a steady drain not affected by damage.
Personally I like the latter as it ties more skill into the block system. This fixes the fact that a ton of little hits like flurry break block in 1-2 seconds while block can absorb 5 Ice Knifes and not break (maybe slightly exaggerated but not by much)
This makes block extremely viable both in PVE and PVP.
Next the real issue at hand - Mark.
Mark = a -8% dmg debuff for the target. This is pretty good, but it falls off if the target attacks you.
I think tab should just be taken out altogether and leave "mark" as is on the other abilities. Threat Rush/ Threat Shout/ IBS all apply mark so no need to change all that.
What was discussed elsewhere was having Tab = a "hard taunt" or a sort of perma mark.
Personally I like the "hard taunt" Idea where it "channels" and forces the target to attack you. This could be useful in both PVP and PVE. PVE - obvious reasons and PVP you could "force" someone to target you.
Another thing I think could be viable is something LIKE unstoppable combined with knights valor.
You have an unstoppable meter that is filled as the GF deals damage. Upon hitting the halfway mark, you activate "tab" and it acts as knights valor - half a bar is 4 seconds a full bar is 8 seconds much like a GWF unstoppable.
This would allow the GF to share damage dealt to any allies within range, just like knights valor. This provides massive PVE and PVP benefits to the class and combined with a stamina block meter really tie into the roll of a GF in the game.
THese are all ideas, I am really sold on the stamina - block idea and also re-tooling the "block meter" to a new type of meter that has defensive benefits....
For TR - Stealth making them invisable
For GWf - Unstoppable making them take less damage
For GF it should play into the roll of a GUARDIAN fighter and knights valor like tab ability would be huge for the class.
You can then run knights valor for almost a perma damage split with you and your party (between tab and encounter) or run damage encounters... Either way it fits well with the class.
basically now that GWFs have a nice way of marking targets via threat rush and IBS, they also have a feat to deal 15% MORE dmg to marked targets essentially making mark even more powerful for them than GFs (as a GF I would take 15% more dmg to mark targets and rely on threat rush to mark, over being able to mark at will)
The DEVs have mentioned that Mark needs a rework.
So what I am here to propose goes RIGHT inline with that and something else that could use a balance on GF - Block.
Block is Simple - Give GFs a stamina bar, blocking drains stamina and cannot "break". There are two options here:
1) a SLOW drain that is sped up taking damage - a little like the current system
2) a steady drain not affected by damage.
Personally I like the latter as it ties more skill into the block system. This fixes the fact that a ton of little hits like flurry break block in 1-2 seconds while block can absorb 5 Ice Knifes and not break (maybe slightly exaggerated but not by much)
This makes block extremely viable both in PVE and PVP.
Next the real issue at hand - Mark.
Mark = a -8% dmg debuff for the target. This is pretty good, but it falls off if the target attacks you.
I think tab should just be taken out altogether and leave "mark" as is on the other abilities. Threat Rush/ Threat Shout/ IBS all apply mark so no need to change all that.
What was discussed elsewhere was having Tab = a "hard taunt" or a sort of perma mark.
Personally I like the "hard taunt" Idea where it "channels" and forces the target to attack you. This could be useful in both PVP and PVE. PVE - obvious reasons and PVP you could "force" someone to target you.
Another thing I think could be viable is something LIKE unstoppable combined with knights valor.
You have an unstoppable meter that is filled as the GF deals damage. Upon hitting the halfway mark, you activate "tab" and it acts as knights valor - half a bar is 4 seconds a full bar is 8 seconds much like a GWF unstoppable.
This would allow the GF to share damage dealt to any allies within range, just like knights valor. This provides massive PVE and PVP benefits to the class and combined with a stamina block meter really tie into the roll of a GF in the game.
THese are all ideas, I am really sold on the stamina - block idea and also re-tooling the "block meter" to a new type of meter that has defensive benefits....
For TR - Stealth making them invisable
For GWf - Unstoppable making them take less damage
For GF it should play into the roll of a GUARDIAN fighter and knights valor like tab ability would be huge for the class.
You can then run knights valor for almost a perma damage split with you and your party (between tab and encounter) or run damage encounters... Either way it fits well with the class.
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nothing happened in extraordinary new patch for GF.
if the GM does not improve so many left to play GF.
Teahup00, HR PVE
Gannicus Destroyer, GWF Destroyer retired
Kate Beckinsale NB DC, Link NB GF
"There is only one way to be a champion..., Never ...ing lose"
1. If we are sharing Paragon Paths, why not share TAB powers too? Let GWF's have the option of TAB marking and GF's the option of TAB Unstoppable. I think we all know what every player would choose ... so perhaps the GF's TAB Mark needs to be fixed/improved?
2. If we try to match the GWF's shift ability to sprint with the GF's shift ability to block, it's a lot closer, but block probably edges out sprint. Unfortunately, Unstoppable is exponentially better than Mark in the TAB slot, so the GF needs a boost. If you're not going to substantially fix Mark to be as beneficial as Unstoppable for PvP, then at least beef up the GF's Block a LOT more to make it a viable defense. Tie the Block meter to Constitution for duration or a stamina bar, but the idea of it breaking on quick hits doesn't make a lot of sense and doesn't work well in PvP. Timers like Dodge makes more sense to me. Aryoux's idea seems fair.
3. Change the TAB mark entirely. Let both Fighter classes main tank in PvE with AoE mark and damage, and turn the GF TAB Mark into something more useful, like a defense debuff, resistance ignored buff to the GF, or a buff to the GF's damage resistance with a similar trigger to the one the GWF has for Unstoppable.
Regardless of the tack taken ... GF's TAB Mark is laughable in PvP, and something should be reworked to fix that IMHO.
I don't care to compare my GWF to my GF, they have very little in common despite NW's twisted idea that they should. Two different worlds, both of which are fun in different ways. (Oh, I don't PvP. That makes a difference on how ya see this issue, probably.)
Well, off to sleep I am- past due.
Roland Mac Sheonin GF | Tarron Direheart SW |
"Increases movement speed while blocking 5/10/15%"
Or just
"Increases movement speed by 5/10/15%"
I really like the idea of block being NOT tied to dmg taken but just pure stamina bar instead... This alligns it with all the other stamina based abilities really well and all the boons that say stamina/guard regen can now just say stamina...
TAB I really like the idea of the essential ability of a GF being absorbing party damage. That seems to be the roll....
Since we are much like the GWF (both fighters) I think an ability that builds up a meter based on taking OR receiving damage could work well.
If you do something LIKE dealing damage gains "determination" and determination on a GF can then be used as a weaker Knights Valor, that would work.
I dont know if doing a determination bar based on damage taken would be fair since we have a shield that helps mitigate damage taken, I think block tied to stamina bar (with no drain with regards to damage) is really fair and ads alot of skill to the block just like the other stamina abilities.
Thus GF should gain determination based on DEALING damage and you can even do feats that build it based on taking dmg if you want.
I dont think they need an offensive boost honestly, so a defensive party mechanic would be nice. Either a hard taunt (less in favor of) or a defensive ability LIKE a party DR buff, or a Party "share damage" mechanic would work really well.
You could then even re-work Knights Valor to something else, like an AOE buff that gives DR/regen to the party or something...
SO many good ideas....
no ****... movement speed is god for a GF...
And i love the determinatin idea on GF. Right now the GF block is so useless compare to GWF's unstopaable
I mean how about we trade GF's Tab for GWF's sprint, you can use tab every 20sec. And when use GF has 30% increase movemnet speed for the next 5 sec. something like that would actually be great.
The idea is that a meele class should always be given a way to gap close range target, GWF have sprint, TR naturally has high movement speed or other bonus and with stealth they can gap cloase easily.
But GF? slow moving, and when use guard you only have 50% movement speed, that is fine but the guard is so useless atm, a couple small hits would instantly break your laughable guard. And lunging strike once used you have a 7 sec cd and it is so easy for other range to gain distance. Don't even forget range have 80* range while Lunging strike to be 30* I mean really?
At least on my cw I took repel and icy ray on tab, as long as I don't have to cap a point I can 1 v 1 any GF and kill them before they get a chance to even touch me...........
>>Block is Simple - Give GFs a stamina bar, blocking drains stamina and cannot "break". There are two options here:
1) a SLOW drain that is sped up taking damage - a little like the current system
2) a steady drain not affected by damage.<<
This is a balance issue. How the block act then? Like now without breaking after x big attacks/y damage received? Then it would be OP, because the GF is the alone class that can refill his 'dodgemeter'.(GWF doesn't count with his sprint due not damage absorbing)
The blockmeter stand good enough as it is now. Only some attacks, that split the damage into multiple hits, drain the block to much. This can be adjusted to avoid killing block with only 1 attack.
Second: How it will work with the AP gain?
>>Mark = a -8% dmg debuff for the target. This is pretty good, but it falls off if the target attacks you.
I think tab should just be taken out altogether and leave "mark" as is on the other abilities. Threat Rush/ Threat Shout/ IBS all apply mark so no need to change all that.<<
You have no clue how mark work or? It's a -8% DR for the marked target. Only with the feat:
Daunting Challenge 5 Marked targets now deal 2/4/6/8/10% less damage to your allies, but still deal full damage to you.
The target deal less damage.
>>You have an unstoppable meter that is filled as the GF deals damage. Upon hitting the halfway mark, you activate "tab" and it acts as knights valor - half a bar is 4 seconds a full bar is 8 seconds much like a GWF unstoppable.<<
This idea is total against the tankchar and profit the con tree at most with penalize the protector tree with his KV feat! So NO to this.
>>For GF it should play into the roll of a GUARDIAN fighter and knights valor like tab ability would be huge for the class.<<
If the tab ability is KV instead of KV as encounter itself. But then is the ask if the KV tab ability is used enough. How many GF run KV? I as protector with the KV feat only in a few situation. So then the people complain again about a useless mechanic. What offer the D&D 4e? Because the tabmark is useful in a handful situations, but the usefulness get destroyed due hit remove it...
>>I also had another idea, GFs have a feat that increases block meter by 5% and ranks 2/3 add another 5% each... Well that feat could easily be something like<<
That's called Shield talent. Already exist. Additionally the feat in Protector tree offer:
Shieldmaster 5 How much your Guard meter is consumed is reduced by 2/4/6/8/10%.
And that's not enough! The Iron Warrior encounter make the Guard Meter bigger.
So i don't know what you are talking about. Improving Guard meter is easy.
To sum up all the suggestions: Wasted points + selfish mentality(Improving Conquerer Tree or Tactician Tree) + OP mechanic. So no. No of your suggestion are good.
Well that’s actually REALLY easy to solve, the block ACTS like it does now, and stamina slowly drains over time as you hold block down…. Basically block “meter” is not determined by damage but TIME you spend holding block. I also posted the other option of having stamina drain more slowly with taking damage drain it much faster.
Basically the same thing as it is now…..
Ok… so clearly its YOU that doesn’t know how it works. GO test it, I have done extensive testing also READ the tootil, it literally gives a -8% DR to the target and CAN take target to negatives….
How would this profit the con tree? It’s the SAME as it is now, except actually arguably WORSE for the Conq tree since now if you block AT ALL, even taking ZERO dmg you lose block meter…
This has NOTHING to do with “improving guard meter” just modifying the feat as an example.. Just a thought… No need to flame about it.
[/QUOTE]
LOL!
Marking targets and dealing damage(number of hits, not amount of damage) to marked targets builds up a Morale bar. When at full Morale, you'll apply a teamwide damage reduction buff the next time you mark a target. Maybe add bonus defense stat as a feat far into the protector tree and bonus damage as a feat far into the tactician tree. Can be added with perm marking, as well, if needed.
Suddenly, GF are needed again for dungeons where your squishier characters need help.
This will also fit the role of a 'protecting' warrior helping team-mates.
It does just that. Increases dmg that marked target received by default and feated mark targets deal 10% less dmg. GF tab is rly strong, what GF needs is a dmg increase on abilities cause atm is a dead weight in dungeons.
Well, 10% feated and 50% base are different, but yes...
Anyway, I don't feel that GF is dead weight in dungeons, unless you are talking about 14kGS DPSers and a DC running in and killing everything they touch AoE way.
Pick a VT pug and get a GF... it wont be able to hold anything and does half the dmg of a CW/GWF/HR. In fact till last boss u can go even without a DC if u have good dps and control. VT last boss is all about dps as well so in my opinion GF is totally useless... I;m only doing dailies with mine since dps got cut badly in module 2.
are u being serious? GF tab is rly strong? dude do your even play one? how good are u?
Yes i am. In my opinion it is (it is equivalent to Greater Feytouch Enchantment with 100% uptime ). Not anymore since it is rly weak compared to my gwf, but that is because of lacking dmg and not tab! Good enough to finish all game content!
Dude... The issue with tab is that there is almost no point to use it, threat rush applies tab to multiple targets, same with threat shout.
The MAIN issue, like I said before, is that GWF has threat rush AND can mark with Indom Strike.
Ive also thought about the "Knights challenge" alternative and I like that as well, EXCEPT if that WERE tab, it would need a MASSIVE nerf - to maybe like 25% more dmg to and from a target...
I like the "Morale" idea.
Move block to shift so it is a stamina based thing, make it so holding block reduces stamina (like sprinting on GWF) but damage doesnt accelerate that, so block is more about timing rather than your block meter.
THEN take the current block meter and call it a "morale" bar. Dont know about a flat DR buff for the party, but heck
AT a 50% bar, maybe it gives a 4 second 5% DR boost? at 100% gives 8 second 10% DR boost? Instead of it being FOR only the GF its for the entire party? I like that idea quite a bit actually.
-duration matches GWF tab, benefits the entire party, its defensive with mark staying on current abilities like threat rush and shout.
Or maybe it offers a complete package, something like
50% BAR (4 second duration)
- gain 5% DR, gain AP 5% faster, gain 5% run speed
at 100% Morale (8 seconds)
- gain 10% DR, gain 10% AP gain, gain 10% run speed etc...
-Make pulls..yeah give it a try, it works.
-Mark that add that is bugging your DC/CW so u can reduce it;s dmg and help dps finish it fast while u are bussy holding the rest of the pack.
-Agro mobs while kiting
-Mark boss while being pushed or kiting
-Mark targets in pvp from distance.. u do realize that u are making rank 10 enchants into rank 6 yes? and u dont even need to be close.
Given how vulnerable GFs are to focus fire with 0 escape ability, whether burst or defensive spec, it would help quite a bit. As for tab, I am at a loss how to make that thing viable. Make it like 4e DnD's Lasting Threat, permanent mark that doesn't go away unless used on someone else, and still leaves a regualr mark behind so it isn't nerfed in any way. Boost for PvE tanking and makes mark a little more useful in pvp.
Daria - Dwarf Sentinel GWF (mistaken for Halfling a lot)
Karia (aka "The Pug") - Human Combat HR
Kayd - Human Conqueror GF - Retired
This entire point being there is ALMOST no usefulness to the tab ability. Compared to ALL other class tab abilities its so horribly lack luster its honestly embarrassing how bad it is...
This is honestly probably what they will end up doing, but having TWO marks can be confusing. I would probably suggest then having 1 mark supersede the other, so if a GF mark is stronger than the threat rush mark, the GF mark overrides it. Dont need those to stack as it would be OP.
I like the mark idea alot, but how to distinguish the two without making 1 OP? Mark should be a sort of "taunt" and I could see it operating as a "hard taunt" followed wtih a damage boost, although id probably be MORE in favor of a DR boost instead.
Typical. Another bluebie that completely ignores the PvP half of the game. The biggest problem is that the GF'S tab is horribly underpowered in PvP compared to every other class. It's not even remotely close.
I still like the suggestion of making it LIKE unstoppable but an AOE party buff.
GFs already have block to help their "tanky-ness" But their "mark" ability is laughable even compared to other in PVE scenarios.
Dont get me wrong it does have SOME usefulness, the biggest one being pulls.
Again the TWO best things ive seen would be a more "perma" mark, or heck even something like you have to get hit 3x before mark falls off would be a TON better than it is now.
Or the "Morale bar" - much like determination bar, where as you deal damage build "Morale" and gives an AOE party buff with +AP gain + run speed and +a small DR boost or something.
This not only ads value for PVE, but also ads benefit in PVP as well....
I still REALLY love the idea (which wasnt mine btw) of having guard on a stamina bar where if you hold block it drains stamina much like sprint on a GWF.
This removes holding block indefinitely and also makes it much more skill based. Also would help ALOT in PVE since currently tanking ALOT of small creatures drains block VERY VERY quick versus a pure stamina based block would allow tanking an INFINITE number of mobs, but only as long as stamina lasts.
I could also see them implementing a certain "point" on the meter that you would have to hit (say 33%) before block becomes active, however if your holding block you can go to 0. This would prevent extreme cases of spamming block constantly as the stamina meter refills just a small portion.
Essentially you must have 33% stamina meter for block to be available, however if your holding block you can let stamina drain to 0 and get benefits (if that makes sense)
Oh look, another PVPer with the mightier than thou attitude believing the only good changes to a character only take PVP premades with exact team makeups into consideration.
On the subject of mark...I'd like the whole "pulling" aspect to work. As it stands, all you're really doing is drawing the enemies to you from a distance. You're not splitting enemies up or anything. Lunging Strike in is a better use of your time in most cases.
Pinny Foxfang - 60 Guardian Fighter
Pinny Foxfire - 60 Scourge Warlock (Temptation)
It is pretty simple, do you want your husband/wife in the future to be either a angel heart+diabled or twisted character + charming outlook?
Neither. Right now the GF TAB drop into the above category, so it is BAD, period. It has nothing to do of being mightier or not, you simply lack the vision that other players have over you.
and they build this bar by dealing Damage or something like that
Gannicus Destroyer, GWF Destroyer retired
Kate Beckinsale NB DC, Link NB GF
"There is only one way to be a champion..., Never ...ing lose"
No, we need the Tab to retain it's current ability in PvE, but be boosted in a way as to be more useful in PvP without being "overpowered" in either.
So basically, you prove my point by only addressing the PvE part of the problem.
There is a very real problem in PvP. Because of the huge damage done to players in less predictable times and amounts, dodges and unstoppable are fantastic compared to the very subpar TAB Mark.
Since artificial intelligence mobs don't chain - control and focus damage on healers, the PvE dynamic is far more accommodating and survivable compared to the real player intelligence and power of PvP matches.
Essentially, in PvE we die a LOT less and may benefit from a small damage gain against tons of minions in a sacrificial pile. But in an environment of what is essentially 5 fast acting and coordinated bosses, the time to gain the small damage boost is greatly outweighed by the fantastic survivability of a quickly recharging 100% immunity to damage and control (dodge) or heal and temporary HP's (unstoppable). Therein lies the problem.