You Sir are so wrong in every aspects of the GF. I never post on these forums but I shall leave this message to warn new possible or existent GFs to not follow those advices if they don't want to be horrible like 99,5% of GF's in PvP(Aka: Wood Splinter in the hand)
I'm not going to reveal my build here but if anyone actually needs GOOD advices to build a true DPS GF, feel free to PM me.
Oh and one general advice for GF; Power is worst stat.
can you enligth us? power has being the best stats since the beggining if you are using a conqueror spec build, tell us what we do not know, this kind of treahs are created for that reason.
however wanted to add that power directly only adds 100 damage per every 1k power points (give or take) so in some ways when you crit adn increase the severity that will exponencially increase your DPS, but please give us yor ideas and details, probably you know something that the creator of the thread does not know and that is why he still consider crit worst stat
Everything works out in the end . If it hasn't worked out yet, it isn't the end...
You Sir are so wrong in every aspects of the GF. I never post on these forums but I shall leave this message to warn new possible or existent GFs to not follow those advices if they don't want to be horrible like 99,5% of GF's in PvP(Aka: Wood Splinter in the hand)
I'm not going to reveal my build here but if anyone actually needs GOOD advices to build a true DPS GF, feel free to PM me.
Oh and one general advice for GF; Power is worst stat.
way to be helpful, it's like saying " hey i figured out how to travel at lightspeed but im not gonna tell ya." on that note i think your full of it and this is just a typical troll post. if not please enlighten us you dont have to give your build out but say something helpful to the thread or why bother posting at all. lol and why is power the worst stat so what are you stacking considering your implying you have put little power into your build?
He is right that power is the least important stat to work on. I run an arpen/crit build with perfect vorpal and only 2K power and I do more damage than any other GF I've come across. Please note that I optimize my GF for PvP and not for PvE, although it works fine for both.
I agree with gorguts regarding Crit. bratzinator is highly underestimating the value of Crit and that you can obtain very reasonable values, i.e. 20% even before buffs like Critical Teamwork apply (and what party does not have an Executioner TR in it?). With a regular Vorpal or better, you can become a true damage dealer in PvE and PvP.
That said, I disagree with gorguts regarding Power. Power+Crit builds do surprisingly well in both PvE and PvP (though much better in PvE due to rare need for burst and survivability is essentially covered by Cleric and decent CWs in most situations). In particular, the aoe's of a GF, i.e. Villain's Menace, Frontline Surge and Enforced Threat all scale extremely well with Power. Do a few dungeon runs with a combat log parser and see for yourself.
In my experience, PvP on a GF is mostly an issue of correct Power selection and match skill, rather than any specific build, since I have seen a wide variety of deadly builds (and played with a few myself). However, I have played with and against gorguts99 and never seen a more deadly GF in PvP. So, perhaps I still lack experience...
I agree with gorguts regarding Crit. bratzinator is highly underestimating the value of Crit and that you can obtain very reasonable values, i.e. 20% even before buffs like Critical Teamwork apply (and what party does not have an Executioner TR in it?). With a regular Vorpal or better, you can become a true damage dealer in PvE and PvP.
That said, I disagree with gorguts regarding Power. Power+Crit builds do surprisingly well in both PvE and PvP (though much better in PvE due to rare need for burst and survivability is essentially covered by Cleric and decent CWs in most situations). In particular, the aoe's of a GF, i.e. Villain's Menace, Frontline Surge and Enforced Threat all scale extremely well with Power. Do a few dungeon runs with a combat log parser and see for yourself.
In my experience, PvP on a GF is mostly an issue of correct Power selection and match skill, rather than any specific build, since I have seen a wide variety of deadly builds (and played with a few myself). However, I have played with and against gorguts99 and never seen a more deadly GF in PvP. So, perhaps I still lack experience...
then im assuming if your stacking crit and arp you will have full timless and rings neck and waist will be crit arp socketed azure's then and a couple darks in shirt and weapon? and prolly perfect vorpal i imagine.
then im assuming if your stacking crit and arp you will have full timless and rings neck and waist will be crit arp socketed azure's then and a couple darks in shirt and weapon? and prolly perfect vorpal i imagine.
Not necessarily. Only thing you really need is an augment companion to raise your Crit to reasonable levels.
Check out dkcandy's/Scroto Baggins guides. He has full details of several typical dps GF builds.
Avg Damage without target's damage reduction =WeaponDamage*(1+Pow/2500)*(1-CritPercentage)+WeaponDamage*(1+Pow/2500)*CritPercentage*(1+CritSeverity)
We can't calculate the amount of damage you will do to any one target unless we know their armor. But, we can calculate the marginal value of each point of armor penetration because when gain 1% of AP, you do another 1% of damage from your strike, which we do know.
Now, as an example, let's use my GF:
Critical Strike Rating: 1225
Armor Penetration: 1732
Weapon Damage: 656
Critical Strike Severity: 75
Calculating the damage increase by gaining one point of power is easy. With my stats, 1 point of power gives me 0.297 damage.
Calculating the marginal value of 1 point of AP is easy. It is the difference of plugging in my armor penetration plus one into the resistance ignored formula and subtracting the value of plugging in my normal armor penetration, and take that difference. Then multiply this by your average weapon damage.
For me:
Crit Percentage: 0.05+0.03+0.228*(1225)^1.2/(10187+(1225)^1.2)=0.1758=17.58%
Ignored Resistance: 35.72*(1732^1.88)/(1225801+(1732^1.88))/100=0.1786=17.86%
Average Damage not counting targets mitigation: 656*(1+Pow/2500)*(1-0.1758)+656*(1+Pow/2500)*0.1758*(1+0.75)=3045.74
Damage increase from 1 point of power: 656*(1+(Pow+1)/2500)*(1-0.1758)+656*(1+(Pow+1)/2500)*0.1758*(1+0.75)-3045.74=0.297
Damage increase from 1 point of armor penetration: 3045*(35.72*((1732+1)^1.88)/(1225801+((1732+1)^1.88))/100-35.72*(1732^1.88)/(1225801+(1732^1.88))/100)=0.295
Assuming this calculation is correct, AP and Power are virtually identical. However, in my case, I get 7755 Power from the Reckless Attacker feat which can effectively double my power. If you do the calculations with more realistic numbers like 5000 Power, the damage increase remains at 0.297, however, the value of AP drops to 0.216. Armor penetration finally overtakes Power as the offensive stat of choice at about 7800 power.
And remember that when using reckless attacker, you shouldn't assume your power is what it is in your character sheet. In a real fight, I think a generous estimate would be to have your power multiplied by 1.75 instead of doubling since your guard is lower. This may sound bad, but remember that every point of power you get through gear and enchants gives you 1.75 times the power.
So in conclusion, I think that all the advice about getting to 22% AP and then stack power is total nonsense. Perhaps I have overlooked something or I have made a mistake. I would love to hear some feedback.
Thx for the work, very interesting. The effect might be minor though as I personally don't slot ArPen and hit the 24% cap anyway through DEX+gear. Purists could squeeze out more power with blue rings/belts/amus, but I'm perfectly fine with my 10k.
Power vs. Crit: For PVE all my testing point towards Power>Crit with Conquerer and Plague Fire. Perfect Vorpal/Tenes/PVP is another story.
You Sir are so wrong in every aspects of the GF. I never post on these forums but I shall leave this message to warn new possible or existent GFs to not follow those advices if they don't want to be horrible like 99,5% of GF's in PvP(Aka: Wood Splinter in the hand)
I'm not going to reveal my build here but if anyone actually needs GOOD advices to build a true DPS GF, feel free to PM me.
Oh and one general advice for GF; Power is worst stat.
Nobody was talking about PvP man. This thread is about PvE DPS = DAMAGE PER SECOND. Not about burst damage in PvP. 24% Armor Penetration Cap? Not valid for PvP, Please read the thread before posting statements which just fail to adress the topic.
No, and that's true for most people with full t1/t2 gear, so OP should change his recommendation that after 3500 def one should stack deflect.
I have seen these discussions evolving over a number of threads, and when it comes to defensive attributes, e.g. defense or deflect, HP is ignored. And if you check the math, no class, no player, nobody should EVER slot defense, except perhaps on the Ioun Stone of Allure.
Defense looks enticing because, depending on your gear, a point of defense can add more to your effective HP than a point of HP. However, for enchantments of the same level you get 4X the amount of HP than you do defense, making defense utter HAMSTER. Please, stop telling people that you should get up to x amount of defense and then slot HP or deflect or whatever. HP reigns supreme over all defensive stats due to the 4-to-1 point itemization.
This applies to every single class. I have thrown in the numbers for a lvl 60 character in decent gear and HP always comes out as king.
Also, for GFs, I think this shows that the hands-down best PvE tanking set is the Indomitable Champion Set. For easy encounters you can always go with something less tanky like the Timeless Hero set, but for hard-hitting bosses and mobs, Indomitable Champion is amazing. I have 37.5k HP, 8900 Power, 20% Crit, 24% ArPen, and 47.5% Damage Resistance, and 22% deflection. That combined with the 10% movement speed and 25% more guard meter is unbeatable.
For GFs with an Ioun Stone, stack power and HP on yourself, and stack ArPen on your stone, and for me I still had one offensive slot for more power. For PvE, armor penetration is the best until you hit the cap, and then just stack things which are not affected by DR, namely power and HP.
Someone please correct this, but for a GF, the current PVE-centric soft/hard caps are something along the lines of:
- arpen: 24% total (stat + dex bonus)
- crit: ~1650, target roughly 20% net
- defense: 3500(ish), target 45-47%-ish mitigation with AC factored in
- deflection: ~ 2000, target 20%-ish deflect
- movement: ~4-5%
- power, HP: as much as you can stack
- regen: ~1000 (??)
- lifesteal: ???
Seem about right? With all the new stat-sticks coming out (passive pets, artifacts) and (relatively) cheaper high level enchants, I figure it's time to play the min-max game again and rebalance my tanking/grouping/farming sets...
I thought the same way about dimiishing. But u have to remember buffs and debuffs. U have 4k def and get mitigated by cw u lose a little dr. U have 2.5k def and get mitigated u lose almost all of your dr.
U R 2 E Z- SENT IV GWF undefeated 16k GS
FaceRoller- regen recovery TR (put on the shelf for now) 14k GS
Supreme CHAOS - IV GF (put on the shelf for now) 16k GS
White Khalifa- tene/hp/regen CW (retired) 11k GS (tene)
Death From Above- TANK ranger 16kGS
(all halfling everything)
Yep, turns out that for PVE tho, the dev's haven't really embraced the mob-used dot/debuff mechanics as much as you'd expect (easier to just spawn adds i guess? ), so the point of diminishing returns as a target is still pretty relevant/reasonable. And with all the new stat boosters coming out, it should be pretty easy to softcap most/all the important ones, maybe with some buffer, and then stack the unlimited stuff. Gonna try that approach anyway... did those numbers I listed look pretty reasonable?
ferret09 I don't know if that helps but check it out. (It's your defence data) [IMG][/img]free screen capture software
0
jerrys514Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 5Arc User
edited February 2014
I'm curious about power. I've heard it basicaly has no DR. I was wondering if power is always good to stack or is there a point where stacking power becomes negligible ?
0
kolbe11Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
I'm curious about power. I've heard it basicaly has no DR. I was wondering if power is always good to stack or is there a point where stacking power becomes negligible ?
Once you are "happy" with all your other stats, power is always a good choice. Period.
"It is said that idle hands are the Devil's tools: Idle geek hands, however, came up with gunpowder, nuclear weapons, and toilet plungers." -Illiad
Comments
can you enligth us? power has being the best stats since the beggining if you are using a conqueror spec build, tell us what we do not know, this kind of treahs are created for that reason.
however wanted to add that power directly only adds 100 damage per every 1k power points (give or take) so in some ways when you crit adn increase the severity that will exponencially increase your DPS, but please give us yor ideas and details, probably you know something that the creator of the thread does not know and that is why he still consider crit worst stat
way to be helpful, it's like saying " hey i figured out how to travel at lightspeed but im not gonna tell ya." on that note i think your full of it and this is just a typical troll post. if not please enlighten us you dont have to give your build out but say something helpful to the thread or why bother posting at all. lol and why is power the worst stat so what are you stacking considering your implying you have put little power into your build?
That said, I disagree with gorguts regarding Power. Power+Crit builds do surprisingly well in both PvE and PvP (though much better in PvE due to rare need for burst and survivability is essentially covered by Cleric and decent CWs in most situations). In particular, the aoe's of a GF, i.e. Villain's Menace, Frontline Surge and Enforced Threat all scale extremely well with Power. Do a few dungeon runs with a combat log parser and see for yourself.
In my experience, PvP on a GF is mostly an issue of correct Power selection and match skill, rather than any specific build, since I have seen a wide variety of deadly builds (and played with a few myself). However, I have played with and against gorguts99 and never seen a more deadly GF in PvP. So, perhaps I still lack experience...
then im assuming if your stacking crit and arp you will have full timless and rings neck and waist will be crit arp socketed azure's then and a couple darks in shirt and weapon? and prolly perfect vorpal i imagine.
Not necessarily. Only thing you really need is an augment companion to raise your Crit to reasonable levels.
Check out dkcandy's/Scroto Baggins guides. He has full details of several typical dps GF builds.
Thx for the work, very interesting. The effect might be minor though as I personally don't slot ArPen and hit the 24% cap anyway through DEX+gear. Purists could squeeze out more power with blue rings/belts/amus, but I'm perfectly fine with my 10k.
Power vs. Crit: For PVE all my testing point towards Power>Crit with Conquerer and Plague Fire. Perfect Vorpal/Tenes/PVP is another story.
GF Guard doesn't block CC
Villains doesn't proc Life Steal
Plague Fire debuff not stacking
Nobody was talking about PvP man. This thread is about PvE DPS = DAMAGE PER SECOND. Not about burst damage in PvP. 24% Armor Penetration Cap? Not valid for PvP, Please read the thread before posting statements which just fail to adress the topic.
Thanks.
I have seen these discussions evolving over a number of threads, and when it comes to defensive attributes, e.g. defense or deflect, HP is ignored. And if you check the math, no class, no player, nobody should EVER slot defense, except perhaps on the Ioun Stone of Allure.
You can find the calculations in post #9 on http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?501401-Should-I-just-ditch-my-GF
Defense looks enticing because, depending on your gear, a point of defense can add more to your effective HP than a point of HP. However, for enchantments of the same level you get 4X the amount of HP than you do defense, making defense utter HAMSTER. Please, stop telling people that you should get up to x amount of defense and then slot HP or deflect or whatever. HP reigns supreme over all defensive stats due to the 4-to-1 point itemization.
This applies to every single class. I have thrown in the numbers for a lvl 60 character in decent gear and HP always comes out as king.
Also, for GFs, I think this shows that the hands-down best PvE tanking set is the Indomitable Champion Set. For easy encounters you can always go with something less tanky like the Timeless Hero set, but for hard-hitting bosses and mobs, Indomitable Champion is amazing. I have 37.5k HP, 8900 Power, 20% Crit, 24% ArPen, and 47.5% Damage Resistance, and 22% deflection. That combined with the 10% movement speed and 25% more guard meter is unbeatable.
For GFs with an Ioun Stone, stack power and HP on yourself, and stack ArPen on your stone, and for me I still had one offensive slot for more power. For PvE, armor penetration is the best until you hit the cap, and then just stack things which are not affected by DR, namely power and HP.
Someone please correct this, but for a GF, the current PVE-centric soft/hard caps are something along the lines of:
- arpen: 24% total (stat + dex bonus)
- crit: ~1650, target roughly 20% net
- defense: 3500(ish), target 45-47%-ish mitigation with AC factored in
- deflection: ~ 2000, target 20%-ish deflect
- movement: ~4-5%
- power, HP: as much as you can stack
- regen: ~1000 (??)
- lifesteal: ???
Seem about right? With all the new stat-sticks coming out (passive pets, artifacts) and (relatively) cheaper high level enchants, I figure it's time to play the min-max game again and rebalance my tanking/grouping/farming sets...
Input appreciated!
FaceRoller- regen recovery TR (put on the shelf for now) 14k GS
Supreme CHAOS - IV GF (put on the shelf for now) 16k GS
White Khalifa- tene/hp/regen CW (retired) 11k GS (tene)
Death From Above- TANK ranger 16kGS
(all halfling everything)
Proud rank 6 of: <Enemy Team>
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]