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Unstoppable explanation
pando83
Member Posts: 2,564 Arc User
Here i want to adress the continuous request of unstoppable nerfs due to regeneration sentinel builds
Unstoppable: this misterious GWF skill. The one most people blame when they meet a sentinel tank build.
How it works: you get a decent amount of damage, the determination meter goes past 50% and you can go unstoppable. Depending on how much your determination bar is filled:
50%---> 25% more damage reduction, attack speed on at-wills increased, 10% of your total HP as temporary HP that go away once Unstoppable ends. Drains at 12% per second, meaning that a 50% determination bar gives you 4 seconds of Unstoppable
100%---> 50% more damage reduction, attack speed on at-wills increased, 20% of your total HP as temporary HP that go away once Unstoppable ends. Drains at 12% per second, meaning that a 100% determination bar gives you 8 seconds of Unstoppable
Obviously, to fill the bar you must lose A LOT of HPs.
With Unstoppable recovery feat (Instigator tree) you get a 5% of total HP healing.
Why GWFs have Unstoppable: cause, plain and simple, they can't 1) teleport immune dodge 2) immune dodge roll 3) block with a shield 4) heal themselves. What do they do? They eat damage. They fight at melee range, so they must get close to the target to attack. And while they do this, they eat all the damage that the enemy throws at them. They can sprint to close the gap faster, but sprint is not immune to damage or cc. So basically Unstoppable is what makes the GWF survive all the damage and cc they can't avoid in any way, and counter the ability of TRs to engange from stealth, dodge roll or range attack, or the ability of GFs to chain prone, or the ability of CWs to cc, repel, range attack, dodge teleport. Must be said also that GWF encounters are very slow and very easy to predict, block or dodge. Which gives them a high chance of their attack being nullified in PvP, while any other class basically does not have much of a problem in making their hits land. So, again, Unstoppable basically lets a GWF buy time. Forever? No.
A destroyer is at around 24k hp usually, a hybrid may be at 28-29k depending on gear.
At 28k, you usually have to lose 35% roughly of your total Hp before you can go Unstoppable at 50% det bar. More if you want to fill the bar at 100%. Must be noted that a very high spike damage can send the bar at full while dealing more than the damage it would usually require to fill your determination. This gives a normal GWF build around 2 unstoppables at 50% or 1 at 100% before the enemy gets the chance to take them down. You either go Unstoppable at 50% 2 times, or at 100% one time, the bonus is the same, just splitted in the first case. 8 seconds of Unstoppable.
This is, USUALLY, the limitation of the skill. Unlike ITC, it's not an encounter and cannot be "spammed" as some people says. if you spam unstoppable this means your getting fast, very fast damage. If your first unstoppable ends and you can go unstoppable again after 1 second, it means that in that second your HP dropped by around 35%.
Another Unstoppable weakness is that GWFs do not have a ranged attack. So, basically, if you just avoid them in those 4 seconds or 8 seconds (using teleports, dodge rolls, shield block or even just running around if they're out of stamina and can't sprint), Unstoppable bonus ends up in just a 5% healing if they have Unstoppable recovery slotted. Not so much.
You see this in normal or less geared PvP builds, or if you meet a destroyer in PvP: they usually get a ton of damage, hp drop dramatically, they go unstoppable and try a comeback or try to run away, depending on the situation. Unstoppable runs out, they get either killed or can go unstoppable at around 10% hp, then they get killed.
So, what makes GWF so fearsome for some players in PvP? Their ability to eat damage and fill the gap with the enemy. You hit him, you see his HPs dropping down...then he go immune, sprint and he's in your face. If you don't panic, you just try to avoid him. If you succeed and his unstoppable goes to waste, you win.
I've read many players calling GWFs "weak" just cause they basically were not undying sentinel tanks. And really, a GWF that is not sentinel and tries to PvP without tactic (avoid damage and being targeted by multiple enemies), really looks weaker than any other class. If unstoppable really was OP, those players would easily be able to look strong even if they suck. I myself got into a one-sided match (i'm a hybrid build), and ended up swarmed by 3 or 4 enemies a couple of times. A guy said "those GWFs are weak". I asked why, and he said that GWFs usually tank 4 people.
Like any GWF around is a regeneration sentinel tank.
What makes Unstoppable look so OP for some people: quite simple, the ability to regain the lost health, and doing so, use even more unstoppable. And, also, the high HPs that make it possible to have a very high temporary health AND build determination without losing a high PERCENTAGE of their total HP.
And it's not cause Unstoppable is OP itself. It's the build that makes it look so. Else, even the other builds would be OP in PvP. But they are not, and require strategy and skills to play well.
A GWF has 6 ways to regain health:
Obviously, PvP potions
Restoring strike (must land to heal, must crit to heal a lot)
Unstoppable recovery (5% HP healing)
Heroic Duelist set: 1% Hp healing per second during Unstoppable (4% total with 50% bar, 8% total with 100% bar)
Life steal: good if you stack it with life drinker enchants, but big weakness in PvP is that you've to actually HIT someone to heal. And it's not a given, considering your encounters have very slow animations.
Regeneration: the holy graal of any GWF tank. You can heal up to 2k HP per tick depending on stats and total HP. With 45% or more damage reduction and Unstoppable, makes up for a frightening combo. Simply cause the enemy encounters can bring you down to 50% HP at best, then you go unstoppable and heal for 4k HP in the meanwhile, then again during cooldowns the enemy has 2k damage taken away from their at-wills every 3 seconds. If you use a PvP potion, you can tank multiple weaker targets. And obviously, you can go unstoppable a lot cause you get back the lost HP very fast.
Outside of this particular build, Unstoppable is never seen as OP. Without high tank regen/HP builds backing it up, Unstoppable is just the only defense a GWF has, since all they can do is eat the damage and have no way to avoid it. Any other build has either a very low (normal builds), or very situational depending (life steal builds, restoring strike) capability of regaining HPs, thus limiting the use of unstoppable due to its charging mechanic (eating damage and losing health)
Hope this helps a bit to clarify how Unstoppable works and why sometimes it looks OP, and sometimes not.
Unstoppable: this misterious GWF skill. The one most people blame when they meet a sentinel tank build.
How it works: you get a decent amount of damage, the determination meter goes past 50% and you can go unstoppable. Depending on how much your determination bar is filled:
50%---> 25% more damage reduction, attack speed on at-wills increased, 10% of your total HP as temporary HP that go away once Unstoppable ends. Drains at 12% per second, meaning that a 50% determination bar gives you 4 seconds of Unstoppable
100%---> 50% more damage reduction, attack speed on at-wills increased, 20% of your total HP as temporary HP that go away once Unstoppable ends. Drains at 12% per second, meaning that a 100% determination bar gives you 8 seconds of Unstoppable
Obviously, to fill the bar you must lose A LOT of HPs.
With Unstoppable recovery feat (Instigator tree) you get a 5% of total HP healing.
Why GWFs have Unstoppable: cause, plain and simple, they can't 1) teleport immune dodge 2) immune dodge roll 3) block with a shield 4) heal themselves. What do they do? They eat damage. They fight at melee range, so they must get close to the target to attack. And while they do this, they eat all the damage that the enemy throws at them. They can sprint to close the gap faster, but sprint is not immune to damage or cc. So basically Unstoppable is what makes the GWF survive all the damage and cc they can't avoid in any way, and counter the ability of TRs to engange from stealth, dodge roll or range attack, or the ability of GFs to chain prone, or the ability of CWs to cc, repel, range attack, dodge teleport. Must be said also that GWF encounters are very slow and very easy to predict, block or dodge. Which gives them a high chance of their attack being nullified in PvP, while any other class basically does not have much of a problem in making their hits land. So, again, Unstoppable basically lets a GWF buy time. Forever? No.
A destroyer is at around 24k hp usually, a hybrid may be at 28-29k depending on gear.
At 28k, you usually have to lose 35% roughly of your total Hp before you can go Unstoppable at 50% det bar. More if you want to fill the bar at 100%. Must be noted that a very high spike damage can send the bar at full while dealing more than the damage it would usually require to fill your determination. This gives a normal GWF build around 2 unstoppables at 50% or 1 at 100% before the enemy gets the chance to take them down. You either go Unstoppable at 50% 2 times, or at 100% one time, the bonus is the same, just splitted in the first case. 8 seconds of Unstoppable.
This is, USUALLY, the limitation of the skill. Unlike ITC, it's not an encounter and cannot be "spammed" as some people says. if you spam unstoppable this means your getting fast, very fast damage. If your first unstoppable ends and you can go unstoppable again after 1 second, it means that in that second your HP dropped by around 35%.
Another Unstoppable weakness is that GWFs do not have a ranged attack. So, basically, if you just avoid them in those 4 seconds or 8 seconds (using teleports, dodge rolls, shield block or even just running around if they're out of stamina and can't sprint), Unstoppable bonus ends up in just a 5% healing if they have Unstoppable recovery slotted. Not so much.
You see this in normal or less geared PvP builds, or if you meet a destroyer in PvP: they usually get a ton of damage, hp drop dramatically, they go unstoppable and try a comeback or try to run away, depending on the situation. Unstoppable runs out, they get either killed or can go unstoppable at around 10% hp, then they get killed.
So, what makes GWF so fearsome for some players in PvP? Their ability to eat damage and fill the gap with the enemy. You hit him, you see his HPs dropping down...then he go immune, sprint and he's in your face. If you don't panic, you just try to avoid him. If you succeed and his unstoppable goes to waste, you win.
I've read many players calling GWFs "weak" just cause they basically were not undying sentinel tanks. And really, a GWF that is not sentinel and tries to PvP without tactic (avoid damage and being targeted by multiple enemies), really looks weaker than any other class. If unstoppable really was OP, those players would easily be able to look strong even if they suck. I myself got into a one-sided match (i'm a hybrid build), and ended up swarmed by 3 or 4 enemies a couple of times. A guy said "those GWFs are weak". I asked why, and he said that GWFs usually tank 4 people.
Like any GWF around is a regeneration sentinel tank.
What makes Unstoppable look so OP for some people: quite simple, the ability to regain the lost health, and doing so, use even more unstoppable. And, also, the high HPs that make it possible to have a very high temporary health AND build determination without losing a high PERCENTAGE of their total HP.
And it's not cause Unstoppable is OP itself. It's the build that makes it look so. Else, even the other builds would be OP in PvP. But they are not, and require strategy and skills to play well.
A GWF has 6 ways to regain health:
Obviously, PvP potions
Restoring strike (must land to heal, must crit to heal a lot)
Unstoppable recovery (5% HP healing)
Heroic Duelist set: 1% Hp healing per second during Unstoppable (4% total with 50% bar, 8% total with 100% bar)
Life steal: good if you stack it with life drinker enchants, but big weakness in PvP is that you've to actually HIT someone to heal. And it's not a given, considering your encounters have very slow animations.
Regeneration: the holy graal of any GWF tank. You can heal up to 2k HP per tick depending on stats and total HP. With 45% or more damage reduction and Unstoppable, makes up for a frightening combo. Simply cause the enemy encounters can bring you down to 50% HP at best, then you go unstoppable and heal for 4k HP in the meanwhile, then again during cooldowns the enemy has 2k damage taken away from their at-wills every 3 seconds. If you use a PvP potion, you can tank multiple weaker targets. And obviously, you can go unstoppable a lot cause you get back the lost HP very fast.
Outside of this particular build, Unstoppable is never seen as OP. Without high tank regen/HP builds backing it up, Unstoppable is just the only defense a GWF has, since all they can do is eat the damage and have no way to avoid it. Any other build has either a very low (normal builds), or very situational depending (life steal builds, restoring strike) capability of regaining HPs, thus limiting the use of unstoppable due to its charging mechanic (eating damage and losing health)
Hope this helps a bit to clarify how Unstoppable works and why sometimes it looks OP, and sometimes not.
Post edited by pando83 on
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Comments
Three minor corrections: We do have a dodge option with Mighty Leap. Our dailies can provide us with complete damage immunities, Avalanche of Steel at all times, and the rest with the appropriate class feature. And sprint provides movement CC immunities (covers slows and CC's that 'stop' you from moving, but not dazes, stuns, knockdowns, knockbacks, etc).
There is a bit of an issue, in my mind, with the combination of a full HP sentinel build, the full Titan or Titan/Valiant combo set (1800 - 3600 extra hp boost), the function of the regen stats (regen just as much in combat as outside of combat, only game I've ever seen that in), and the tenebrous enchants (allow this normally low damage build to do much more than normal, due to the high HP of the player and high damage stat of greatswords).
It's not any one thing. It's the combination of them that is pushing the envelope, and I am a full defense sentinel build myself. I know how effective I am and where my weaknesses are, and with rank 7's and greater enchants now, I worry about the very peak of gear in our class.
"D*mn wizards," said Morik the Rogue.
Learn what a GWF and GF really are: The History of Fighters
As an offensive ability, in PvP particularly, Unstoppable is almost completely useless. It's major strengths is to help us avoid CC while we're closing with a target (which sprint and mighty leap also help with, outside of unstoppable) and it provides us with a 25-50% higher DR.
Another note is the ability to 'tank' using defense and deflect. Our class has a lot of options to improve our deflect, which gives us a LOT of pvp sustainability (there are at least three feats in the Sentinel line that boost deflect). The downside of us using deflect? It lowers how much damage we take.
Why is less damage a bad thing? Our unstoppable builds off of HP loss, not damage applied.
"D*mn wizards," said Morik the Rogue.
Learn what a GWF and GF really are: The History of Fighters
So you don't approve of our classes balance as a single-target, CC or tank class. Gotcha. And I don't disagree that we don't have a role in PvE.
But how does this relate to a post explaining how Unstoppable works and clarifying how it's perceived by players who don't know anything about GWF's? As I clarified, it's not really an offensive ability anyhow, true.
"D*mn wizards," said Morik the Rogue.
Learn what a GWF and GF really are: The History of Fighters
I dont mean this as a bash post since alot of this is good information but you need to really qualify the name of your post saying Unstoppable explaination, in view of a destroyer build. Because thats what this is.
How does it differ in Sentinel? Let me tell you.
POINT 1) Sents only have to lose about 15% HP to have a 50% Unstoppable. They gain 5% healed of base hp and 10% temp HP putting them at 100% HP. Even if they take damage they have over 70% DR and have lifesteal+regen+often times lifedrinker which means they ATLEAST come out of unstoppable with 90% often 95% or more.
POINT 2) This is half true, GWFs have takedown which is a fast casting encounter that if you miss it has a 3 sec CD. You have flourish which if done right even follows CW/TR/DC if they blink/dodge away and still stuns and does damage. You have Roar which is ranged and fast. The only thing thats really easy to dodge is IBS and frankly if your IBSing someone thats not stunned by any manner, your doing it wrong.
POINT 3) A Sent, 35k-38k standard HP.
POINT 4) At 36k HP you have to lose 15% to give you unstoppable, this means you TOOK 5400 damage, at over 40% roughly DR or higher that means you eat 10k daamage, take 5400 of it, and go unstoppable which heals you for 5% (or 1800 HP) meaning you REALLY took 5400-1800 = 3600 of a total 10k AND you have 4 seconds of CC immune/high DR.
POINT 5) Most people realize their only window to kill a Sent is out of ujnstoppable. They (and rightly so) save their CDs for that moment. Well what happens when you save your encounters and use them right out of unstoppable? Well the GWF takes alot of burst and guess what happens when we just demonstrated you deal 10k damage and with DR the GWF takes 5400? Another unstoppable... So this actually happen more often then not. As a Sent GWF I probably spend atleast half my time in combat in unstoppable. IN unstoppable atleast 4 seconds as you pointed out, and it usually only takes about 3 seconds to take enough damage to go back in. Hence why people say "spamming" ITC has a long CD and I would wager a Sent can get around 3 Unstoppables for every 1 ITC.
POINT 6) Look up Roar, its pretty amazing.
POINT 7) Having to avoid someone for 4-8 seconds while simultaneously trying to stay ON a point is almost impossible to do. In order to avoid them, youll have to leave the point which results in a loss of points for the team OR you let the GWf cap.
POINT 8) Lets take a scenario here..
Lets say a GWF is at 25% HP because he took a ton of damage as burst, he has a full Unstop meter. He pops that and it lasts almost 8 seconds at 90% DR. Well every 3 seconds he is getting 1600-2k in regen ticks, so almost 6k healed from regen alone (4500ish or more) Then you get 8 seconds as the GWF Sent to attack which gives nice lifesteal call this 1k+ in healing, some Sents use restoring strike which heals 1.5k-3k depending on damage. They gained 20% Temp HP (so almost 7k in temp hp) and full healed themselves 5% HP which on a 35k HP Sent is 1700. THEN add a lifedrinker, even a regular one, and youll atleast heal another 1-2k or even more healing. Lets add this up now.
6k+1k+2k+1700+2k = 11k+? Just using rough math here. Now, for fun add a potion and your at 16k+? Now to mention they have 25% hp (on a Sent thats 9000) which brings them back to 25,000 HP. Again just rough math. So they went from almost being dead to well over 50-60%. Again this is on a Sent.
ALL IN ALL: The question remains. On a Sent GWF its really clear how unstoppable is slightly too strong. But how then do you NOT nerf the Non-Sent Specs while nerfing the Sent Spec.
My idea was to give unstoppable for damage done, since Dest. are damage specs this would help them build deter at a fast rate than sents from dealing more damage, however People then claim what about kiting?
I dont have an answer however, I think the suggestion bring it MORE inline with a balance than leaving it. Just my 2 sents (see what I did there).
So absolute best possible in the game FULL TANK SPEC GWF, can tank a CW and GWF for approximately 45 seconds, when his entire spec is geared toward staying alive. That is far from OP.
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
Its not hard to FF a GWF down 2v1 and time your damage well. The issue is that the mechanic offers them a large 1v1 advantage in a game consisting of hold the point.
Also a Max geared GWF is going to be one that uses Teneb enchants and more than likely Roar. I have not met 1 CW yet that could beat me in a 1v1 on my GWF. I have had CWs try and they can last 45sec-1 min but the result is the same.
I have not faced a GTE CW though so it may be different.
Now when you say GWF vs GWF on back point, then that you come to 2v1 the GWF, the fight doesnt last more than 30 seconds, I completely agree. So.. your saying?
Im not saying it cant be done. Im simple agreeing with Lantiss, he said it really well...
The mechanic allows bad GWFs to make macro mistakes and get away with it. Its not a "skill" based move its a HUGE crutch for the class.
What I would like to see is more skill factor involved where played optimally the class can excel VERY well still, however it actually requiring skill to use, rather a GWf is now a 1 trick pony that basically is 100% reliant upon gear and unstoppable.
Is it insulting to realize that a certain playstyle might have the upper hand on you because of the way you play? Are you the aggressive type that can't pass up on finishing a fight and must focus one target at a time? Are you the defensive type who picks his objective and fights for it no matter the odds? Maybe your an ambusher, like me, who picks each fight carefully and will move on if he doesn't hold the best advantage? Or possibly, your a team supporter who focuses more on what your teammates and friends are doing than what the enemy is doing?
By the way, those are just four little examples, and there are hundreds of styles. Let me tell you my enemy. My enemy is the min-maxer personal-vendetta type. They fit BiS, they skip every non-essential feat and abilty, and once I get a kill on them, they hunt me down for the rest of the match. They usually insult me in zone or through tells, and when the battles over, they insult me afterwards. But their personal issues aside, the part that really gets me is I'm an ambusher, and kinda need my enemy to forget I'm there to be the most effective. When two or three players on the opposing team are hunting my head, I am no longer as good at my job, and my tactics are kinda foiled.
I say this because, it seems, you have a vendetta against sentinel GWF's. Lost a few fights against them. Or maybe even leveled a GWF to 60 yourself, chose the class, got BiS, and had nobody to play against because nobody liked fighting you. But you go from post to post talking about how awesome we are (even when many of us agree that the extremely expensive combination of armor and enchants can make us too powerful), but your suggestions are always into nerfing the whole class, and not a set of armor or an enchant that is causing more problems for other classes, not just ours alone.
As a GWF, and as someone who looks at what's going on behind the scenes, I know that Unstoppable isn't that great an ability for us. Temporary burst tank of heightened Damage Resistance, something we get a lot of anyway with the way our feats and armor stack. But that full sentinel build is also receiving less damage due to their deflect tanks, too.
If any change I would agree to help balance unstoppable, should the devs agree it needs updated, is I would make determination gain off of the percentage of max effective HP (not temporary). In essence, require the GWF lose 25% HP to gain 50% unstoppable, whether that's 25% of 25k, or 34k.
And if you see another one of those 38k sentinels with the full HP boost and regen build, laugh at them as they hit you with a wet noodle that might get a small tene boost. Cause they do <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> for damage.
"D*mn wizards," said Morik the Rogue.
Learn what a GWF and GF really are: The History of Fighters
There are right ways and wrong ways to use unstoppable. Same as any other tab ability. More than once as I was learning did I try to takedown a rogue in dodge, or timed my daily wrong on a CW who teleported at the right moment. But also more than once, have I run into the GWF that pops their unstoppable far too soon, start swinging their encounter powers, and trying to rush around the battlefield sprinting here and there. They are wasting all of their advantage, and I just started hitting them with debuffs, because they aren't immune to those. As soon as that 4-8 seconds is up? CC, lock them down, nuke them, let them pop it again, apply debuffs.
Don't waste your daily when the good CW has only teleported twice.
Don't throw away your CC on that rogue who's all dark and smokey.
Don't blow your encounter rotation on the GF with block up.
And don't try to DPS or CC the GWF in Unstoppable. Debuff and wait it out.
"D*mn wizards," said Morik the Rogue.
Learn what a GWF and GF really are: The History of Fighters
Take away tenebrous, and these builds are suddenly toothless. Not entirely, but I can tell you I hardly feel overpowered in my games without tenebrous. It may take 2 or more to kill me when I gear out full tank, but they don't have to be careful about it because they know I cannot kill them fast. That allows them to be more reckless than they could be against a tenebrous warrior. In order for me to get some offense going that they have to respect, I have to drop defensive gear for some offense, making me more vulnerable.
If they ever actually re-balance tenebrous, we would get a much clearer picture of balance between all the classes. Tenebrous just change the way pvp is played too much.
Daria - Dwarf Sentinel GWF (mistaken for Halfling a lot)
Karia (aka "The Pug") - Human Combat HR
Kayd - Human Conqueror GF - Retired
This is a very reasonable approach. Start with the enchant which is causing headaches across multiple classes and builds, and when that is done, if GWF Sentinel/Regen builds are still having too much life expectancy, then we can look at the next issue across platforms ... regen.
"D*mn wizards," said Morik the Rogue.
Learn what a GWF and GF really are: The History of Fighters
Hey Ive been posting about how OP tenes are for a long time. I wont comment about all your previous posts, because essentially this sums up the issue. Which I have also posted about regen nerf and got MASSIVE flame for asking for a change to that.
I see people arguing over Tenes that they arent OP and I just need to L2P. Ill say this, I have 3 60s (GWF/GF/TR) with very good gear, I played since OB so ive seen ALOT of things in the game, Ive farmed PVE content for months and am now bored of PVE. I only pretty much PVP now.
I dont have a vendetta against them, I want to make pvp more fun for people and more exciting. Right now, the only viable pvp spec is sent. The only way a sent can kill anything is Tenebs. But without it, any GWF role in a PVP match is going to be a Backcapper Sent. Its very boring and I would LIKE to see other specs in pvp, but they arent viable. Why is that? because even if they WERE more viable, people would still flock to having a Sent GWF backcap because no class can do it as well.
Why is that? Well for 1 unstoppable on a Sent as I have outlined before. 2 is regen stat and top those off with tenebs and you have a very OP class.
I would love to see more diversity in pvp. More viable builds, less "Cheese" in a sense... What is cheesy in pvp?
Well Tenebs for 1, see my video as another poster put up there. Thats my point exactly.
For 2, Sent GWF builds are cheese
For 3. Perma stealth TRs are cheese.
What makes these builds viable? Well Regen/Tenebs and on GWF - Unstoppable and on TRs - stealth.
So how do you change something for 1 build without changing it for the other builds? I like your idea of having it be based on a % of HP. That means sents would build FAR less determination than they do now. But you still have issues with Dest spec being WAY too squishy to be viable.
And btw, I agree DCs need some love, hence why I made the "patch notes id like to see" thread, which blew up about some of these same issues.
Hey, if a Sent GWF with tenes DOESNT post about unstoppable/Tenes/regen being OP when combined WHO is going to? If anyone else does it, itsa **** who needs to L2P, but then when I do it, its the same thing? So WHO can post about these things and have their perspective respected? Obviously not me or Lantiss who also admits the build needs a tweak...
I bet the Unnoticeable is not what the other classes want to see nerfed , at it is so obviously the least efficient way to mitigate damage.
As for myself, let's say I am fighting 4 trash mob or one elite. Unnoticeable is so low replenish that it will usually trigger only once the four zombies are dead. Or the elite. And this is a 50% Unnoticeable. So, I am here with my HP lost from the fight, I can see the yellow temp HP for 4 seconds, completely useless as the fight is over. Then the yellow temp HP points just vanish before the next fight begins. Unnoticeable has brought me absolutelly nothing in the fight.
But, the other classes will answer, slot something else in your TAB, just like we do!
Yeah I got that, hence why the beginning of my post says that yours is directed towards Dest and then I wanted to point out the differences between Sent in more detail. You gave some good info and I learned from it even!
What it made me realize is how crappy Unstoppable is for NON Sent Specs. It really doesnt live up to its job of Keeping Dest. up in pvp. Part of that blame can fall on gear selection just like anyother class has to balance damage and survivability, a Non-Sent GWF should be more aware of that tradeoff and gear accordingly, but even to that extent, if it doesnt pop until 35% hp is lost, thats a LARGE amount of HP.
This is ALL why I changed my "Patch notes" post to incorporate this info. Since currently my Sent takes 15% HP lost and gets a 50% Unstop, a Dest spec GWF takes 35% HP lost to make this happen as well, well that makes me wonder exactly their formula for Unstoppable.
What it SHOULD be based on is not any flat amount of damage taken, but the amount of HP lost. Regardless of spec.
My poposition is to make a 50% Unstoppable after 25% of hp lost. A full unstoppable would then be at 50% hp lost.
This balances out Sents versus non Sents. Now the Sent has to take considerable amount more damage to pop unstoppable. At 35k HP, they will need to take almost 9k damage versus a GWF Dest with 26k HP will only need to take about 6k damage. This would buff Destroyers in PVP as they would be popping unstoppable alot more often than now, and Sents would take much more time and eat more damage to proc theirs.
25% and 50% seems like a pretty fair tradeoff. To prevent Unstoppable spamming, however, I think an ICD of atleast 2 seconds should be placed, if not 3 seconds, before a GWF can enter unstoppable again.
To address benskix2,
My idea there was reduce the effectiveness of regen in combat by 25% and keep it the same out of combat..
I would also like to see the mechanic sprint use more as a utility for the class as well, not just a movement enhancer but some defensive qualities built in.
An idea I had was only make sprint available AFTER the half way mark (like unstoppable is) or comparable to a TR with its "dodge". When a GWF has sprint, you can use it like it is now, except that it grants either some deflect, or extra DR or something to help avoid taking massive damage.
The nerf to unstoppable for Sents, but giving the addition of a better sprint mechanic, balanced with the buff for destroyers unstoppable AND the buff for sprint would make alot more classes viable in pvp and would reduce the "Sent or GTFO" that it currently is in pvp because you highlighted it very well,
Unstoppable is too weak on Non Sents and too strong on Sents.
Another idea that I dont have a ton of incite into is removeing the reduced damage done while in unstoppable but also reduce the attack speed a little as well.
This would create offensive bonuses for going unstoppable as well as defensive.
dps supposed to deal dmg not take dmg there is no reason to buff destroyers
If you are so pro, maybe you can explain to me why NO premades ever run destoryer GWFs? Or why NO top PVPer IS a Destroyer GWF.
Just a thought there....
Probably because most aren't geared up properly to use it right?
This guy is definitely a top pvp-er from his vids, but also b/c I've fought him live on Dragon a few times.
Another of his vids shows his destroyer spec, enjoy :P
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dujOCXk-H2o
also if u want to buff destroyer survaviblity(probly i spell it wrong) i demand sentiniel buff in dmg then.
Another option is a feat that provides a 2/4/6/8/10% speed boost to encounter powers and movement speed while in unstoppable for destroyers, at a sacrifice of 2/4/6/8/10% DM while unstoppable is active. This would allow them to use unstoppable far more aggressively, something that makes it next to useless right now.
"D*mn wizards," said Morik the Rogue.
Learn what a GWF and GF really are: The History of Fighters
Im not gonna blanket statement this like what is almost 99% done on forums. You mean this guy right: http://gateway.playneverwinter.com/#char(Snow@finalwinter)/charactersheet
Well I would like to point out hes running Six rank 9 enchants, Perfect Vorpal and Perfect SF and Greater Tranquils with a few R8s in there... Ofcourse a guy running that is going to do good in pvp almost regardless of spec. The question sint can he run over PUGs or bad guilds...
The question is: If this guy IS a top pvper, where are his premade versus premade vids versus say lemonade stand? My quote said that no premades run destroyer. Im NOT hating on the guy at all, I just think its funny that you post vids of a GWF with better gear than what? 98% of the player base and then are impressed with him beating people down in pvp?
Want me to make a tactician GF video of me beating people down in pvp? I can do it pretty easily... Doesnt mean the spec isnt stupid or could use a buff though, it just means my gear is amazing... heck I can even go full defensive tree as a GF and do this as well... I can take my Perf Vorp TR and run a non-executioner tree and go 20-0.. Doesnt mean that the spec isnt bad for PVP.
Its hard to qualify good pvper since there is no ranking system. The only "ranking" system we even remotely have is based on the challenges that have been issued by guilds like lemonade stand. If you can show me him versus some good pvpers in a premade match, id love to watch, and probably could learn a thing or two.
My point is, in premade versus premade, I would LOVE to see a Non Sent GWf on a team that actually is very good. I havnt seen it yet and I pvp alot!
I would love for Snow to enter the tourny once servers merge and see how far their premade can get. because I have fought other very geared GWFs that are Destroyer and also have perfect vorp on my GWF and they couldnt compete and couldnt kill me. That said, I am willing to stand corrected but have not been yet.
Just a few thoughts.
First is that it doesn't complement a GWFs role in PvP. There isn't really an AoE DPS role. GWF's role is to survive, backcap, and disrupt with CC, ie Stunning Flourish, Takedown, and Roar. Sentinel's gain 20% more resistance from defense and 15% more deflect thanks to Scale Agility and Master of Arms. 15% def mathematically doesn't work out to much, but in practice is a lot. You could go Destroyer and still hit 21% harder on Encounters if timed during unstoppable and gain quicker cooldowns on takedown and roar even in the same tank gear as Sentinels, but will lose thanks to feat placement lose out on grabbing stunning flourish and scale agility. The other problem is Focused Destroyer, which could potentially add another flat 12% damage as a multiplier, but it is nearly impossible to build up in PvP thanks to the 25% and you lose either Bravery (umm... not a good idea) or Weapon Master which is actually 2% crit per stack, not the 1.5% listed. Focused Destroyer Should really be 100% to get a stack with every hit, but even that might be a tough call against weapon master thanks to Student of the Sword.
The second though is Tenebrous again. Tenebrous add a bunch of burst damage and make the damage gain from going Destroyer really a moot point. Better to have max survivability and still do really **** good burst damage. Dead players do not do any damage. Without Tenebrous, either going destroyer, or sacrificing some gear for survivability might actually be seen more. Though we might be getting a statement about Tenebrous.
Let me start holding my breath ..................
Daria - Dwarf Sentinel GWF (mistaken for Halfling a lot)
Karia (aka "The Pug") - Human Combat HR
Kayd - Human Conqueror GF - Retired
The GWF tab ability is primarily defense based. We have a bunch of defense-related stats and feats. And top things out in the Sentinel feat line, and we make great damage takers that can't catch or hold aggro. This means, in arena pvp, we make great position holders. A simple addition of some form of aggro control in sentinel would make our PvE capabilities far greater, without boosting us any further in PvP.
AOE dps is not going to make our role in Arena PvP any better or different. Look at CW's currently. They don't get much opportunity to apply AOE damage, either. So in that mind, boosting our AOE dps potential is almost exclusively a PvE buff, and one we sorely need. More applied damage would also allow us to generate more threat, helping with the aggro issues we have, again buffing our PvE capabilities.
To look at our single-target DPS capabilities, the question then remains on what we wish to do. Is destroyer a single target line, an aoe line, and aoe/single target all-dps line, or what?
Is there anything stopping a damage dealer that can move through CC's from being useful, besides the lack of CW's in current top premades, or the plethora of TR's that can do the same job better from stealth?
"D*mn wizards," said Morik the Rogue.
Learn what a GWF and GF really are: The History of Fighters
The problem with Instigator is the feats are just haphazard, not contributing to an overall theme, and it lacks the 5 point feat that really defines the spec like focused destroyer does for Destroyer Specs and Master of Arms does for Sentinels. The problem is I don't really do PvE, so I don't have really any experience with it. I'll post it, but probably not tonight.
Daria - Dwarf Sentinel GWF (mistaken for Halfling a lot)
Karia (aka "The Pug") - Human Combat HR
Kayd - Human Conqueror GF - Retired
Other that need this class is some of useless skills to be fixed e.g. to be changed or to be added something to them as effects.
Maybe WMS to hit 7 targets will help in PVE.
I can't remember something more.
About Destroyer and Sentinels build. If you sacrifice DMG for HP I do not know how you expect to do good DPS.
I have 22,800 HP with T1 PVP set and this is enough for me to do PVP and PVE and to be in top 1-2 chart in PVE as DPS (rare 3-4). And to die rare because too much mobs on my head and no healer around, my mistake or bad healer.
So all is about your play style and passive (feat) that you chose.
I like the idea of Unstoppable activating after losing 25% HP in place of the damage taken system we have right now. Would increase a bit Destroyers survivability making them more viable for PvP, and decrease a bit Sentinels tankiness, making them at least as tanky as a GF but not so much more tanky than any other class/ build.
I got to play as both destroyer and sentinel in PvP, even if as i said, i'm not a regeneration tank type of sentinel.
From what i've seen, the switch to Sentinel gives a defense boost that outweights the Destroyer higher damage. I got a flat 500 points increase in GS.
AoE DPS in PvP is useless. PvP is about single targeting. May be useful to pop a slam to help your team, or WMS to debuff if you've 2-3 enemies packed up together on a point. But overall, it's about single targeting.
Right now, Destroyers are mainly PvE builds, made to dish out the best AoE damage from the class. Basically, in PvP the play style should be staying in a Group, sprinting out to take down 1 target and using Unstoppable to survive, then retreat. Looking at higher GS destro builds, you can get to 37-39% crit chance (after 32-33%, critical scales really bad to me), then they get ArP at 24% overall and start stacking power.
Better Unstoppable would help them being more suitable for PvP. Or, also, they could buff damage for the destroyer tree so that they can be comparable to TRs in terms of spike damage, to suit better the hit-and-run playstyle.
The problem of high DPS builds being not useful in PvP, i see it in all classes. The main reason is that Neverwinter PvP is fast, with high spike damage, so you have to be tanky or you do not survive enough to deliver any DPS.
The thing about Unstoppable is that it's much more effective on high HP/ regeneration tanks, while on normal builds it's just a vital skill to at least survive. People focus on sentinels cause they see them in PvP, and think that Unstoppable itself is OP, while it's just the sinergy with very high HPs and regeneration.
To give a go about Destroyers possible builds for PvP:
Imho, Power is not a good choice unless you really reached a limit in ArP and critical. it gives roughly 40 damage per 1000 points of the stat. For PvP, i would rather overstack ArP since it scales very well (ArP from 1000 to 2000 is around 10% DR reduction, meaning 10% more damage for you) and usually people in PvP have more than 24% DR, go for the stunlock build (stunning flourish, reduced cooldown on roar and takedown, berseker set for reduced cooldown after crescendo, credits to Chainer), leave alone destroyer purpose and get SoTS. Then stack recovery to increase AP gain and reduce cooldowns further. Use Life steal, life drinker (more survivability, and since you hit harder, you also heal more) or vorpal (more spike damage if i crit, easier to kill opponents in 1 rotation) and stack deflection for defense. Right now, Unstoppable is not that good for detroyers in PvP, cause they have low HPs and no regeneration, so i'd rather max-out my deflection chance to reduce damage taken and avoid spike damage from TRs.
The thing is, even so, if by chance the CW/ TR survives your first rotation, you're in trouble. And Destroyers damage buff thanks to their tree is not enough, not even close to TRs, and the increased cc is worse than a GF chain prone.
Since Unstoppable does not help you much, it's easy to think that while Sentinels can bring survivability to a peak, destroyers can't do the same with DPS/cc. They still fall behind the other classes in my opinion.
Plus, playing basically as a squishy melee build that can't go stealth, requires really some awesome tactical ability imho.