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Whose fault is it: the rube or the carnie?
seneca671
Member Posts: 0 Arc User
Inspired by this:
There are a lot of complaints about the cost of items in the zen store and the amounts people have spent. To me, it all gets down to the question I posed in the topic title. On one hand we have PWE/Cryptic, who have presented a legitimate, F2P model that rewards patience, but they've presented it to a player base a segment of which they must know are a mix of impatient, compulsive, young, and... well (sorry, just my perspective, folks) a bit foolish with their money.
Is the model too aggressive, or even a little predatory, or is it up to adult (at least over 18) players to be able to get their acts together, control the amount of money they spend, and take some responsibility?
goddessunique wrote: »You people ARE the reason zen items are so expensive, spending so much money on worthless pixels. lol
My bf got me a $20 ugc and I spent that on a ion stone for my heal bot dc and I regret doing that every time I log on her to pray. lol
Is it really getting ripped off if you knew it wasn't worth it before you charged zen but did it anyway?
There are a lot of complaints about the cost of items in the zen store and the amounts people have spent. To me, it all gets down to the question I posed in the topic title. On one hand we have PWE/Cryptic, who have presented a legitimate, F2P model that rewards patience, but they've presented it to a player base a segment of which they must know are a mix of impatient, compulsive, young, and... well (sorry, just my perspective, folks) a bit foolish with their money.
Is the model too aggressive, or even a little predatory, or is it up to adult (at least over 18) players to be able to get their acts together, control the amount of money they spend, and take some responsibility?
Post edited by seneca671 on
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Yes, although I cannot complain too much. The fools who drop thousands for this game are the reason I can play for free.
Thank you.
Join Essence of Aggression: PVP-ing Hard Since Beta!
Sed, can you elaborate? What have you learned, that's discouraged you?
Cregar, I play similarly: I bought a Guardian pack, and spend an extra $10/month on the game. Now, I haven't always spent that money well (*cough* Lock Boxes), but that's all I spend.
Well, for me the first and biggest thing that changed the way I look at the company was how they handled the Nightmare Thursday incident. By most accounts I've read, the servers were only live for about 40 minutes. Rolling back the servers and returning the lockboxes and keys to those who opened them during that time was both the logical and ethical thing to do. But they didn't do that, did they? Instead they congratulated people who received mounts during that time. There were people logged in who didn't exploit the bug (but could have) because it was clear to them something was wrong and they assumed, as any reasonable person would, that a rollback would occur; some of those people had spent in excess of $100 on Enchanted Keys yet never received the Nightmare Mount. I could go on, but if you were around you saw for yourself the overwelmingly negative response from many people who'd bought keys in the past over how this was handled. Then, less than two weeks later, a slew of people get banned for sharing a quest?! Seriously, how stupid is that?!! And all the people who supported how all this was handled could come up with in PWE's defense were quotes from the Terms of Service. What a load of HAMSTER!
Next, you have the pattern where people purchase packs under the pretense they're receiving "exclusive" rewards only to see a reskinned version of said reward get resold at a lower price a couple of weeks later. You can't do things like this and not expect to annoy people who bought those packs. Why don't they allow people who purchase these packs to exchange the mount that came in the pack for the reskinned version if they like that one better? The answer to that question tells you everything you need to know about how PWE does business.
If they want people to continue to buy into the game over an extended period of time, they need to do a hell of a lot better job at making sure investments made by players retain their value. They are failing miserably in this area and it's going to cost them big in the long run, whether or not they ever actually realize it.
Yeah, that was rough. I've opened several hundred lock boxes without getting a Nightmare. I get your point: if the system isn't transparent (sometimes exploiters will be banned, sometimes people who get something for free get to keep it) how do you know where you stand? They blew that one, and again with the "lucky" thing. They should have responded with a "this is why we're not rolling back, you may disagree" type statement, i.e. transparency.
Your point about the skins also has merit, and is really about the same thing: transparency. Players need to know how they're going to be dealt with, incident to incident: when they do, it creates a fair arena, and things like high prices become up to players to buy into or not. When the system seems unfair or hard to predict, players lose faith.
Very good points, thanks for your response. To bring it back to the original question, your answer would be that the rube is to blame, but only if the rules of the game are clear.
Yeah, I think ultimately the rube has to take responsibility for their own purchasing decisions. I mean, it's up to each individual to manage their own wallet, right? PWE/Cryptic didn't force the money out of my bank account; I made that decision. However, PWE/Cryptic should be expected to operate their business with integrity. So, I'd say the blame is divided between the rube and carnie, but with the rube baring the majority of the blame for their purchasing choices.
Aha! Interesting. I've long held that part of the fun of MMOs is that they are a closed system: a clear and understandable universe, where predictable actions lead to success. This is unlike life, which has unfairness built in. PWE/Cryptic has thrown some curves, thus making the system less controllable through play and perseverance, and thus less fun. Again, the need for predictable handling of problems and a level playing system, where exploiters aren't rewarded. The system only works if everyone knows the rules, and that people who break them aren't ultimately the ones who end up ahead.
On the plus side, I hope that the idea of referring to people who benefit from a bug/exploit "lucky" becomes a meme. That s**t is priceless.
For players, first of all, they shouldn't even be playing unless they are of age, or are being supervised by a parent/guardian. The player really needs to reign in their impulse to just *buy buy buy* when it comes to things like chance-boxes or any such virtual item.
Don't get me wrong - vague wording and those admin messages about who won what super rare item, can certainly be misleading, but no one is forcing anyone to buy these items, so it's important to exert more control when it comes to spending...
"Is it better to be feared or respected? I say, is it too much to ask for both?" -Tony Stark
Official NW_Legit_Community Forums
Cam't remember how many items are in the NW boxes but this should give you an idea.
http://co-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=241181
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By no means. What I'm interested in is the dynamics of responsibility - stuff like bioshrike brought up, i.e. implying that the model isn't good for kids, who are likely to be impulsive. I'm interested in ideas like "it's okay to link in-game compulsive behavior to real-life spending, as long as the system is consistent" - stuff like that. The gray area of who's responsible: the game designers, or the players, and how.
The gist so far seems to be that people are responsible for their own actions, but Cryptic/PWE hasn't been very consistent, and maybe kids shouldn't be playing without supervision, because of the potential impulse buying (I don't know the legal stuff, here).
I don't think it's irresponsible to spend money on the game - I spend money on it, myself.
Exactly! If you are able to properly evaluate your income and expenses, and determine what can be spent on entertainment, and if spending that disposable income on Neverwinter brings you enjoyment, then by all means spend away.
My biggest issue is the lack of information that would properly allow people to make well informed decisions about when, how much, and what, to spend money on. Certain items, like direct Zen store item purchases, are fine - you know what you will get from your purchase. It's the chance items that don't sit right with me, personally...
"Is it better to be feared or respected? I say, is it too much to ask for both?" -Tony Stark
Official NW_Legit_Community Forums
Integrity and ethics are both cornerstones of good, sound business. Marketing is not evil, the skills and techniques one learns in university are sound and effective. It is the real world experience on the job and those around the person that shape business ethics. In this case, cryptic's leaders in these areas are heading a questionable business model for their games. All of it is legal, technically so, but it is run by those that are morally bankrupt.
Though, I must concede that, as the old saying goes, "do not attribute to malice what can be better explained by stupidity". Those behind these monetization practices could be rather daft. Personally, I think they are modelling on a limited lifespan for each of these games and are setting a high price point with deceptively coercive marketing to bring in as much revenue for that timeframe. After all, the overall direction of business is handled at the highest levels, and when the revenue dips too far they will pull out, chop up the business and move on to their next little projects.
glassdoor.com - Cryptic Studios Review
I Definitely agree with this, having spent a substantial sum on the game through packs and zen purchases i have gained enjoyment from some but not all of my purchases. The diminished exclusivity of some of the pack items was annoying i will also never purchase zen or keys again unless they are both on sale and wait to do so because of how poorly worded new item descriptions,proc chances and actual effects are, don't even get me started on coalescent wards. . .but over all if they sort the wheat from the chaff, learn from their blunders and successes, put out more worthwhile items then i will probably put in more casheish and help support the game some more.
I've been holding my tongue for a while now but it is time someone says something to you. This will probably get me in trouble with the mods, but so be it.
Why do you always seem to think EVERY thread that doesn't have a positive "I'm so Happy with the game!" message in it is a negative and useless thread? I have read many of your posts and usually they are very intelligently written and explain your opinion in a constructive manner. Lately you seem to just be attacking every thread claiming they are a Doom and Gloom thread and you are constantly accusing players of wanting the game to fail.
This thread was created to offer players a place to voice their opinion on a subject. The OP did not start the thread with a negative post, they just voiced their opinion and asked what others thought. Some of the preceding post may have been negative, and those players are entitled to their opinion. You have your opinions on this game and you voice them quite often on the forums. Why are others not allowed to do the same? I rarely see anyone attacking your posts even though you come across as PWE/Cryptic's hero most of the time, so why do you always feel the need to attack others. Most of the people you are attacking genuinely want the game to succeed and they voice their opinion of what they think will help the game continue to move forward. Let the people voice their opinion and if you disagree you can post your own opinion and leave it at that. Constantly posting to basically say you are going to ignore a thread in it's entirety because you disagree with it is not really necessary. If you do not like the content of the thread voice your constructive opinion or move on to another thread that has content worthy of your time.
The mods may hit me with the hammer now...
On to the topic. We do it to ourselves so it is the rube's fault. No one forced me to spend the money and I gladly gave it to them. I did feel everything was a bit overpriced so I tried to make money saving choices when I could. Over time the buyer's remorse kicked in because I realized most of the things I got with my money were pretty useless (companions) or the value of what I bought was lowered by changes put in the game (profession assets). Honestly, I would still give them money if there was something worth buying, but so far nothing has popped up.
Yeah, I was kind of thinking this same thing. It doesn't make sense to come to a gaming forum expecting nothing but sunshine and roses. And I think very few people who post here actually want the game to fail.
I got the Feywild pack and don't care about the armored unicorns, why would I? Every character I ever make gets a unicorn and a bunch of other stuff that I don't need to spend gold, $$ or time on to get.
Going back to the original question; both are. The carnie might set the price but as long the rube is prepared and able to pay the price will remain, if the rubes stop paying the carnie lowers the price (or does something else to increase perceived value). This is all fair.
Ultimately you have 2 choices; be patient and pay nothing, or be impatient and pay. Personally I'm happy to be a little impatient and throw some money at the game, but my patience is gaining strength.
Obsidian Oath - Warlock
A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
And just because I'm so tired of hearing this type of complaining I need to address the whole "I bought _____ because I thought it was unique but then they released a slightly different version of it". First of all, do yourself a favor and look up the definition of "Unique". For those complaining about the unicorns, hate to break it to you but your white unicorn is still unique to the feywild pack. Yes, they released a reskinned version of it in the zen shop but it is not white. So while you may be sad that you're no longer one of a select few players able to ride around on a unicorn, you can still be (and should be) happy that you're one of a select few players able to ride around on a white unicorn.
I mean after all, you wanted a unicorn mount because you liked the idea of having a unicorn right? Well, you got exactly what you wanted. But I suspect that many players only wanted the unicorn mount just so they could have something the other players couldn't have and that is what truly makes them unhappy about the release of the black unicorn and if that's the case, you really need to grow up.
A full rollback, even to remove 40 minutes of uptime, would have involved taking the servers down for at least a further 6 hours, possibly 12. On the day of the biggest patch since the official launch, doing this would have sent the wrong message out and could possibly have resulted in even worse publicity than what actually happened.
As for those who say that the patch shouldn't have launched without fixing the nightmare drop rate, you can conclude from the fact that they fixed the bug in less than 2 hours that not only was a fix on the internal build, but it's more than likely that some executive decided to put the servers back up before the devs had finished the internal testing and pushing the fix to the live servers in order to put the servers back up on schedule.
Two points.
I like to think that I am a reasonable person. I never assumed they would have a rollback. In fact, at the time I suggested to many of the people who predicted the utter destruction of the economy that it would have a negligible long-term effect. And, as it happens, I was right. To suggest that only your point-of-view is reasonable is, perhaps, unreasonable itself.
Secondly, if the only thing keeping you moral is the notion that you won't get away with it, then you probably weren't that moral to begin with. In this wise, it's a bit inconsistent to deride Cryptic for 'not morally taking away ill-gotten mounts' if you would have happily taking the ill-gotten mounts if only you thought they wouldn't roll the system back. It sounds like sour grapes instead of an actual call for fairness. A truly moral person isn't upset at missing the opportunity for crime because he truly feels that crime doesn't pay... instead he'd be more sad for those folks who couldn't resist the temptation.
None of this is intended as a personal attack on you. I'm sorry you're not happy with what's been going on. And this, I think, is one of the great benefits of NOT having subscriptions. Nobody has to feel cheated out of a week's, month's, or year's time that they've already paid for if they lose faith in the game, the developers, or the producers. They can just stop.
Also a good point, and of concern to me, as well. When I see people spending big amounts of money within a few months, it makes me think that the model is a little shady – maybe not intentionally, it is a new game – but it’s hard for a company to turn away from these kind of results. The concern is that they’re not sustainable: if too much of the player base spends too quickly, gets frustrated and leaves, bad talking the game, that’s not a good sign for long-term health.
Again, transparency, in another form: being consistent with offers, rather than making you wish you’d waited to buy Zen until there was an offer. If they want to create “zen buying windows” then say that that’s how they’ll operate!
Oddly enough, part of what I like about the game is forced patience: I feel weirdly like I’m learning to be less impulsive.
Good point, I’d forgotten that it was the day of the big patch – a lot was at stake that day.
Thanks everyone, for the posts so far. I feel like the original question, if a little tongue in cheek, is receiving some thoughtful answers. The gist seems to be that people are responsible for their own spending, but Cryptic/PWE needs to do some work on how they approach transparency, consistency, and relaying information.
Incidentally, since it came up, this is probably my favorite MMO, out of the too-many-to-count I’ve played. It’s primarily because I spend a lot of time soloing: this game gives me the opportunity to earn rewards solo, over time, and to do real, instanced dungeons on my own. So I’m pretty much the last person who would start a doom and gloom thread. I think the game is still in early days, and still has a lot of potential to be a long-term, successful, F2P Game.
With that distinction made, when it comes to responsibility, I don't hold the rube responsible for being taken advantage of, but I do hold the fool responsible.
...Your fact is as valid as those "bashers" who claim that the devs "conveniently" forget to fix the drop rate before putting it live, despite receiving ample bug reports, so a lot of keys are ready for opening.
And, without a proper explanation except for the "You are lucky!" post, most players will just choose to believe that the devs fail to fix it on time despite receiving ample warning before uploading the patch, yet it is an easy fix, seeing they can fix this issue fast after happening in live.
Of course, there are more unusual causes, like attempt to sell more keys for those who know the issue (even it is not true, it just makes legit players perceive it as) , and possible and plausible scenarios like what you had described (and vigorously defended), but most players will just flip their fingers at you anyway.
Unlike most of their claims mine isn't an absolute and does leave room for doubt, besides, if as you said people brought keys in advance for Nightmare Thursday then it would have been in the devs best interests to fix the bug before it went live as they already had the money for the keys and it would have prevented a mass influx of limited mounts into the market.
Yeah, I don't think Cryptic was complicit in that fiasco. I think they were just incompetent, which wouldn't be as big a deal if they'd handled the situation appropriately.
Ok so we've established that it was incompetence (or something similar) that caused Nightmare Thursday, given how fast the turnaround on the second downtime was (less than 2 hours from the servers going up originally, servers went up at 9am, down at 10.05am, back up at 10.50am) we can establish that it was more than likely that a fix was already on an internal build. The feywild patch was heavily advertised and the time the servers were scheduled to be originally brought up was posted on several MMO news sites.
Now in this scenario which is more likely -
Having done some programming work in the past I know which option is more likely.