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SImple fix for PvP
wondras
Member Posts: 9 Arc User
There were similar threads but this is not "nerf the class!" thread. I present here three ideas how to quickly and effectively fix most of major PvP desing flaws:
50% self-healing reduction*
this would afflict:
-HP regen
-life steal
-self-healing-only skills and feats (like restoring strike or Ferocious Reaction)
this would NOT afflict:
-cleric party/another target healing skills, including self-effects of those
-potions
1 second rule**
= one character cannot be afflicted by SAME type of CC one second after the previous of-the-type CC ended
-it means no more knockdown-locks / pushback-lock / stun-locks
-it does NOT stop other skillful and creative CC gameplay or locking in varied CC
-once again, it does NOT stop CC chaining, it just require more skill to do so
CC diminishing
as many before proposed, CC diminishing is nessesary for good PvP expierence
Goals:
* increase speed of PvP, doesnt stop tanking charcters however it will stop ultra-regen builds capable of 4v1 ing
= nerfing regen-4-players-damage builds
** raises skill nessesary for CC chaining, gives a chance to retaliate when targeted by 100-0 no-risk builds
= making harder to pull off 100->0 without any chance to retaliate
50% self-healing reduction*
this would afflict:
-HP regen
-life steal
-self-healing-only skills and feats (like restoring strike or Ferocious Reaction)
this would NOT afflict:
-cleric party/another target healing skills, including self-effects of those
-potions
1 second rule**
= one character cannot be afflicted by SAME type of CC one second after the previous of-the-type CC ended
-it means no more knockdown-locks / pushback-lock / stun-locks
-it does NOT stop other skillful and creative CC gameplay or locking in varied CC
-once again, it does NOT stop CC chaining, it just require more skill to do so
CC diminishing
as many before proposed, CC diminishing is nessesary for good PvP expierence
Goals:
* increase speed of PvP, doesnt stop tanking charcters however it will stop ultra-regen builds capable of 4v1 ing
= nerfing regen-4-players-damage builds
** raises skill nessesary for CC chaining, gives a chance to retaliate when targeted by 100-0 no-risk builds
= making harder to pull off 100->0 without any chance to retaliate
Post edited by Unknown User on
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The creator of the thread is possibly a TR which is no big deal because TRs would be hit as well if the changes occur because tons of TR gear stack regen and life steal.
There is no point to whine for nerfs because you win some and loose some. Crying just makes a player look like a crier and no one, especially the devs, should take them seriously. Have a nice day!:)
Even TR's use regen quite often now. He is a DC, notice the "nerf all healing EXCEPT DC's healing"
With this nerf you would run into 3 TR 2 CW teams all the time, all full damage spec and abilities. Why? b/c they can't be CC'd to death, tanks can't live through more than 2 rotations of their attacks, and CW has many different forms of CC that would not go diminishing (repel, icy rays, chill strike, freeze - knockback, root, stun, and freeze is considered its own thing, not a stun)
You would just be nerfing GF/GWF heavily and making squishy classes more powerful than them even at melee range.
You are just wanting cleric to be more unkillable than anyone else... that's the only class that would really feel a "buff" from this.
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
I am CW (main) and sentinel GWF (non regen, alt) to satisfy your curiosity.
And if you d ask my personal opinion what I have problems with are GF "half a minute" knockdown chain. It also seems to me unfair any class could beat other without any chance of victim retaliate (and yes, GWFs Takedown+Crescendo->IBS combo should take the 1s rule too).
100 to 0 in unbreakable CC removes any competition from the exact duel - if the victim was AFK he could do just as good in that fight. If I were TR i wouldnt like the 4 times 2 seconds stun from Impactshot broken(tooltip doesnt say its stun but it act like the same).
Also the sentinel GWFs like "lets tank 4 people" and regen it should be removed completely - it slows down the game and rather then being dangerous its boring. This is another example of no-skill win, simply wait until enemy gets dead bored.
To GWFS: sentinel regen hurts the class and its reason for the ultranerfs in last patches, lets get rid of this shadow of GWF class.
DC already has 40% healing reduction shouldnt you notice. Sorry but they dont need it reduced to 90%. (well cap total healing is different story but I would never dare to propose that)
And whats the difference? Its best group nowadays and will be the same, not because of reduction of healing but because it got the best burst damage. (well except havig 3 sentinel regen buids, each blocking one node vs 5 attackers)
GF prone chain lasts 6-7 seconds when fully feated for prone duration increase, all of the proning skills are also so very easily dodged for those with experience against GF's. If you take a knockdown from a GWF either it is his 4th attempt at it (because you so easily dodged the first 3 and now have no more stamina) in which case he should already be dead, or you have no reflexes whatsoever in your body. The CW is by far the easiest class to dodge 90% of CC with, I get hit by 1 of GF's 3 prones at most and rarely every get caught by a GWF (or Lashing blade for that matter). Not to mention if you slot the right skills GF can't even get close to you.
CC is quite dodgeable/blockable by all classes except GWF... who is completely immune 50% of the time. If played correctly you can mitigate over 50% of CC completely, so to nerf it any more would be foolish and make melee classes quite weak.
There is such an easy counter to Sent GWF, it's called shocking execution. Also multiple prones and debuffing work quite well. A good CW + any class should be able to take down 95% of Sent GWF's. Keep in mind I'm talking good as in they take full debuffs as a CW should in higher tier PvP.
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
It is extremly hard to dodge because it has high range and short animation contrary to Takedown - you can never know when expierenced GF will press it. (ofc I laught at GF pressing it right away)
It OK, to knock down, its OK to do it multiple time but its not OK doing it without any counters.
GFs arent the only class in PvP so sorry. I will sacrifice one or two slots to keep them at range but not all 4(3).
Wrong, wrong and wrong. You clearly dont know GWF well - even GWF can completely dodge CC without unstoppable. And Unstoppable uptime is much lower(even lower then ItC) - i can see your frustration from sentinel regen GWF.
Not every class has Shocking Execution, give every class SE and it will be OK (or just reduce the self-healing).
Not every class is GF and can chain knockdowns for extended time. Give every class 3 low-CD knockdowns, it will fix the regen build(or just reduce the self-healing).
I dont agree with you - I think it really was NEVER intended for one class to tank 4 other people infinitely.
and it is not OK.
(and tested, regen sentinel can outlive debuff feated COI, two Ray of Enfeeblement and ice knife while othe people hit him simply by having crazy regen, giving him enought HP to fuel another unstoppable after prone of ice knife ended)
/next.
2. Every class, except Cleric, can chain CC.
3. Every class can either avoid or mitigate chain CC, including from GF's.
4. Any form of "diminishing return" on CC just favors the damage classes, i.e. mostly TR, and favors the side with even a weak Cleric.
5. Any form of nerf to self-healing further favors the side with a Cleric, but at the cost of everyone else.
Why not just nerf Sentinel GWF's, and buff TR's directly because your changes will achieve just that?
No. Clerics already have a self-heal debuff, which is fecking re tarded.
Agree with the rest, CC locking is stupid. It's ridiculous that you arn't able to do anything while getting perms-stunned. I can't, at this moment, think of any other game that allows perma-CC.
Sadly, I disagree almost completely.
First and foremost, a GWF's main competitor and nemesis on the battlefield is the GF. They can rip us apart like no other class. About the only other class that GF's really have hand over fist over is a DC, but since DC's should not be at the forward point in a fight and should be shadowing the CW's, this is usually the fault of the DC's.
As a Nemesis, the time to kill said individual is short. A well built GF will thrash and pin a GWF, which is about the only way to really kill us easy. Just like the Nemesis of a CW is a Rogue, or a Rogue is a GWF, or a GF is a CW. That four-man cycle where each class has it's worse enemy out there ... that is a very clear cut form of balance, believe it or not. The hiccup is DC's, which are largely vulnerable but have not particular weakspot for them to attack, at which point you must remind them that attacking really isn't the point.
But a Nemesis does NOT mean there is no chance of retaliation. It just means there isn't as fair of a 1v1.
Secondly, the sentinel build your talking about is called the 'Speed Bump'. It usually supports a Titan set and has a sharp decline in damage output compared to an AoW sentinel or a destroyer build. Those individuals aren't killing things, they are absorbing damage with a burst tank until help arrives, and using our utility abilities of knockdowns, stuns and slows to help us in this team effort.
The actual top end power of that armor set is pretty high, especially with 7+ gems and certain armor attachments. Which is sadly in line with all classes, as each class has a series of high-end build options which generally make the class overpowered. We're not talking about a nerf of GWF's or healing options, though, and instead a rework of an armor set ... which I won't argue needs considered.
But your wrong in figuring that sentinel regen is what got us nerfed. It was fast firing daily immunities tied with slam interrupt, which the devs admitted in the patch notes themselves. Between the speed of our dailies (having the aoe options we do, dailies could be built in a tenth of the time as they are today), the 5 second immunity, and the massive self heal that unstoppable gave us, even a destroyer could be almost completely immune to damage. It was a broken mechanic, that led to them quite possibly going too far in the nerf.
DnD isn't built on 1v1's. It's built on team play. Which is why the true effectiveness of any one class cannot be set aside when that class is considered in a well built team. Just because a GWF or GF is hard to kill (GF by way of massive EHP tank and damage immunity, GWF by way of temporary CC immunity and DR), does not mean they are overpowered.
"D*mn wizards," said Morik the Rogue.
Learn what a GWF and GF really are: The History of Fighters
leave game as it is, iti s balanced. tr kill everybody, gwf tanks, gfs cc chain, cw good dps and controls. cleric heals
perfect balance and individuality for me, if touch any of these, you break the game.
the "regen" debuff is the most stupid think i ever read here, looks like it is a cry a undergeared CW/TR that got pwned by a tank build GWF, which is good pvp and poor pve, and has to do a lot of sacrifices. tankers gwf cant even kill clerigs of their same gear score. this thread is nonsense, ppl ask nerfs because they get pwned by some specific classes, and they ask for nerfs without analyze the outcome to the game of their nerfs.
if we do what you asked in the thread. can as well remove gwf of the game, because it will be the most useless class in it.
I have fought decents CWs that really do me crazy DPS and I am a top gear gwf sentinel...
hint hint, explore more your armor debuffs, and avoid 1 v 1 gwfs, they are good in 1 v 1, and weak killers in groups.
Gannicus Destroyer, GWF Destroyer retired
Kate Beckinsale NB DC, Link NB GF
"There is only one way to be a champion..., Never ...ing lose"
I play Sent GWF. 38k HP, ~45% deflect, 1300 regen, 3200 defense. I can be killed within 30 seconds when 2 GOOD players are sent against me. I do GvG matches all the time, so we're talking equally well geared players. With a CW it's even faster than 30 seconds.
Of course they are beasts vs. pugs, pugs have average of 10k GS and little PvP experience, put any decked out character that is experienced in PvP vs. a random and you get the same result every time.
CW's have 3 dodges and soon after the 3rd can dodge again, I find it quite easy to dodge at least 1 if not 2 of the GF's prone abilities. Frontline (their longest prone) has ~20 second CD, while bull rush is only about 9-10. You can even dodge while mid air after the first hit of their daily and avoid the 2nd hit lol. Vs. premade team yes there is no room for repel + icy rays, but in that setting you have competent teammates to help guard you from the GF, while vs. pugs you can live forever with 4 CC abilities slotted.
Back to GWF: My CW reduces defense by 55%, mitigation by 55% (can go negative) and defense by -1350, I can solo 90% of GWF's no problem, and with help the super tanky ones melt very quickly.
PvP is well balanced when you have equally geared and skilled teams, the people that are doing the complaining are the ones that don't know how to dodge, don't know the strengths of their class, and are playing against premades that do.
DC has a prone, albeit a crappy one =P, CW has a prone, GF has 3, GWF has 2, and TR has SE, pretty much any 2 classes (except 2 DC's) can kill a sent GWF when equally geared.
I have a 60 of every class, pvp with all of them, and can both do very well and get countered with all of them.
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
Since I play GWF myself I know how to kill GWF pretty well
My point is, killing regen sentinel shouldnt be for the "few chosen".
as CW, when I dont have Ice Knife ready to trigger prone effect and one decent damager with me, there is no possible way of killing such beast. I wouldnt be mad if it was in 1v1 impossible, but in 4v1 its RIDICULOUS
If you read my post, clerics are excluded from the healing reduction debuff since they already have one. Next illiterate please.
But again, you're saying it should be easy for pugs to do it. Put any well geared and experienced player of any class vs 2 random pugs, the exp player wins 95% of the time. It's almost impossible 1v1, I was killed by a TR one time b/c I stood in his DF and laughed as I though he couldn't hurt me, his SE crit and he got me =/ Since then I have fought him a few times and never lost. He had P. vorpal 5 Gtene and R9's or better. But I have been killed tons of times by 2 players without BiS that just use good tactics.
If you take away a GWF or GF's tankiness and make CC useless who would ever play GWF or GF? You can't simply alienate 2 of 5 classes cause you don't like their mechanics.
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
Its not only sentinels, its also GF regen builds and any other classes.
I play sentinel in offensive gear, and I dont have any problems tanking two enemies. I want boring regen build efficiency reduced since it:
a) slows PvP
b) removes thrill because it extends fights
c) removes those build from rock-paper-scissors scenario, giving it "beats everything" role
what do YOU think why should be crazy regen builds(4 people tank) kept, rather then reduced to 2 or 3 people tank builds?
I dont say it should be EASY, I say it should be at least POSSIBLE.
Do math, if you can now tank 4 people and have 50% healing reduction, you should be still able to tank 2 people, not as you preset to be one-shoted.
I regularly score in first three in PvP with offensive gear sentinel(sentinel simple bc i was forced to spec so after big GWF nerfs). I tested it first before proposing this - if you are skilled(not only overgeared) you can do just as well.
It is still rock paper scissors, GF with multiple prones and TR with SE can quite quickly drop a Sent if they know what they're doing.
But I can only tank 2 good players for about 30-45 seconds, that makes me just good enough to be viable in high tier premade pvp. Take away 50% of my regen and even the pitiful damage from a perma stealth TR can drop me within 30 seconds.
I score in the top 2 95% of the time in my DPS gear. I still maintain 34k health, 2700 defense, 600 regen, and 1100 deflect though. Even with those defensive stats I have to switch back to all defense to be useful in a premade vs premade matchup.
and with your diminishing CC how would you get kills? Flourish, then knockdown (oh knockdown lasts 1/2 the time b/c flourish stunned them for a 1/2 second) they dodge IBS, you crescendo cause they are getting away (oh crescendo lasts 1/4 the time) they are already running away while you are still finishing animation. CW finally finishes them from range b/c you can't catch them with more than 1-2 sure strikes every few seconds with no CC.
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
Real silly and one-sided suggestion. It like breaking the melee class and further enhance the range class. Wow and NOT afflict cleric?? Double standard?
And pls, redefine your goal as your own agenda that you're pushing...
Probabily they will never do this, because this one shot pvp is the best for them. They will do another nerf, so the pve will get ruined again and again
My point exactly - even with half of you regen you are still beast. And let it stay that way, as long as you are not a beast tanking 5 pugs by regen only.
Clearly you are not familiar how CC diminishing works, try WoW as a good balanced example(if there is one good thing about WoW - it is -almost- perfectly balanced)
As long as I remember these rules would apply to every class.
Plus, ranged class(es) already has CC duration greatly diminished, paired with additional diminishing doesnt seems giving them any buffs.
Clerics got already 40% self healing reduction.
step 1: learn about the game
step 2: flame when you know what are you talking about
Way to cut the rest of my post out, the part where I stated people with a brain and higher than 10k GS can kill me easily 2v1. Winning vs. pugs means nothing, I can do that on all 5 of my 60's nearly every single time. In premade vs. premade you are fighting people of equal gear and equal skill, and matches are actually very balanced. If matches are balanced when gear and skill are balanced that means we have a balanced game...
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.