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Malabogs Castle groups Exclude the GWF
devilwings1337
Member Posts: 20 Arc User
You know when I first started doing Malabogs castle I thought they finally had a dungeon that played on ever classes strengths. Mini-bosses are tough enough to warrant a TR to DPS them down. GF's became important again as tanking the adds and bosses is an essential strategy, DC of course for the heals and CW for the Adds. And also GWF for the adds.
But GWF dont get into groups
Why is this you ask?
The horrible horrible GWF nerfs from last patch. Reduced best DPS daily to there worst one, AP generation on all Multi target attacks dropped like a rock. Unstoppable damage reduction and temp HP killed. Deflection class features reduced by half.
No it's none of that, they handle everything on the way to the the Final boss in the dungeon well/ It's just that they are not needed at all for the final boss. In a group of one of every class against the Blue dragon. The GWF cannot tank either the dragon or the adds. Because the TR and the GF will split those jobs simply by how much threat each class makes.
And since a TR's threat comes from his massive damage the GWF has no threat moves to compare. Even if sentinal spec he cannot out threat the TR. and The GWF is supposed to be the #2 guy to tank in a pinch when needed.
So since players know that GWFS deal less damage than rogues and do about the same damage as CW's in AOE but without the control. Parties exclude the GWF yet again from another final end game dungeon.
The devs have spent months trying to get this class "right" but everytime they make a change they just dig it deeper into this black hole that all players avoid and it's known as the GWF.
I see alot of players asking for more damage on the GWF so they can be the undisputed kings of AOE. But in these dungeons that wont save the class. THey have no party role and the Devs need to realize that.
GWFs need to be more versitile. They need to have Good single target damage"IF" they have equipped the right moves and Good AOE damage with the right moves and a Good Tank if they have the right moves. But they cant do all three at once. And all GWFs of every spec needs to be able to do this so players can expect all GWFS to fill a needed roll in a gorup no matter what there play style.
To solve this the Devs really really need to buff the Moves on GWF that are too weak to bring to end game dungeons. Buff these moves hardcore to help the GWF fulfill the rolls in a group that parties need them to be. I've see nsome great suggestions in The Barracks on buffing specific moves.
The truth is it would be better for the Devs to overbuff the class at this point than to take babysteps on buffs like that have been recently. The class is doomed as soon as a 6th class gets released.
Procrastination will only doom the GWFs and the way this game is going if one class officially Dies and is completely ignore by all players then the entire game is done for.
And the GWF is so very very close to being eliminated. Only a few very good and stubborn GWF players are managing to keep it alive.
Act now Devs before it is too late.
But GWF dont get into groups
Why is this you ask?
The horrible horrible GWF nerfs from last patch. Reduced best DPS daily to there worst one, AP generation on all Multi target attacks dropped like a rock. Unstoppable damage reduction and temp HP killed. Deflection class features reduced by half.
No it's none of that, they handle everything on the way to the the Final boss in the dungeon well/ It's just that they are not needed at all for the final boss. In a group of one of every class against the Blue dragon. The GWF cannot tank either the dragon or the adds. Because the TR and the GF will split those jobs simply by how much threat each class makes.
And since a TR's threat comes from his massive damage the GWF has no threat moves to compare. Even if sentinal spec he cannot out threat the TR. and The GWF is supposed to be the #2 guy to tank in a pinch when needed.
So since players know that GWFS deal less damage than rogues and do about the same damage as CW's in AOE but without the control. Parties exclude the GWF yet again from another final end game dungeon.
The devs have spent months trying to get this class "right" but everytime they make a change they just dig it deeper into this black hole that all players avoid and it's known as the GWF.
I see alot of players asking for more damage on the GWF so they can be the undisputed kings of AOE. But in these dungeons that wont save the class. THey have no party role and the Devs need to realize that.
GWFs need to be more versitile. They need to have Good single target damage"IF" they have equipped the right moves and Good AOE damage with the right moves and a Good Tank if they have the right moves. But they cant do all three at once. And all GWFs of every spec needs to be able to do this so players can expect all GWFS to fill a needed roll in a gorup no matter what there play style.
To solve this the Devs really really need to buff the Moves on GWF that are too weak to bring to end game dungeons. Buff these moves hardcore to help the GWF fulfill the rolls in a group that parties need them to be. I've see nsome great suggestions in The Barracks on buffing specific moves.
The truth is it would be better for the Devs to overbuff the class at this point than to take babysteps on buffs like that have been recently. The class is doomed as soon as a 6th class gets released.
Procrastination will only doom the GWFs and the way this game is going if one class officially Dies and is completely ignore by all players then the entire game is done for.
And the GWF is so very very close to being eliminated. Only a few very good and stubborn GWF players are managing to keep it alive.
Act now Devs before it is too late.
Post edited by devilwings1337 on
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Comments
It's already too late. The entire game post 60 is horribly broken.The gwf issue is only a symptom of a much larger problem.
It's obvious they have no idea how to fix their game.
Nor does it appear they have any interest in doing so.
The interest lies solely in sucking as much zen as possible from players on the way to 60 (as these are the ones who primarily buy zen). If you aren't a possible zen sale then you do not matter.
What kind of game company allows widely known exploitable content to exist for months on end?
Join Essence of Aggression: PVP-ing Hard Since Beta!
It's quite simple: CWs are not supposed to be the "kings of AoE damage", as they call themselves. But they are. And they are the kings of cc too. It's all cause the devs, instead of making the GWF the kings of AoE damage in PvE, like the say they want to do, preferred to do it this way.
The thing to do would be to give the GWF a set of encounters that deal heavy AoE damage and nerf CWs AoE damage.
This way you would have complete parties, where everyone is needed. DC for heal, TR for damage, GF for tank, CW for CC and GWF for AoE damage. Also, this way GWFs would just have to pick the AoE encounters when in PvE, and the usual ST encounters when in PvP.
I'm pretty sure that giving the CWs a little buff in some single target encounters would calm the incoming whining.
But the way i see it, every class has a role in PvE except the GWF, just cause the CWs took that role TOO, along with their main cc role.
CWs shouldn't be able to deal more AoE damage than GWF, period.
They are the main cause of GWFs being excluded from epic dungeons. Where it's permitted, they can cc the mobs out of the map. But also where it's not permitted, they still can outdamage the GWFs in AoE. So one of the two. They can't have both. Or, as we can see, one class (the GWF) is left out with no PvE role.
I think it's not rocket science, but may be the devs are too scared of the reaction of the CW community. As someone said, they now see themselves as the "AoE DPS kings". But if they're not kids, they should also understand that an entire class cannot be left with no role just cause they want to be both the best at cc and AoE DPS.
Until devs give the GWFs a set of encounters that makes them do more AoE damage than CWs to use in PvE, there will be no room for them in epic dungeons.
I, as a CW, approve this post 100%. Devs need to buff GWF AoE damage BIG TIME and please remove their stupid penalties if hitting more than one target, THEY SHOULD HIT MORE THAN ONE.
The way i see it, it could be done simply by buffing damage for single target encounters for CWs (but may be nerfing a bit Ice Knife. It's close to TRs damage, and it's ranged and unavoidable), and decreasing damage for the CWs AoE skills. So they'll keep their role as primary cc class, and will be effective in PvP too.
On the other hand, the GWFs could get some changes in their encounter AoE powers, giving them a set of AoE encounters designed for AoE DPS in PvE. For example, encounters that have a good area of effect, but require the GWF to stand still, and deal damage over time like the old slam daily, may be with some debuff to mob defense. This way, PvP would not be affected, cause:
-players in PvP do not behave like a mob crowd: they move and avoid damage, and do not pack together
-the damage is dealt over time, so while a mob usually stand still attacking the tank, a player just slip away
- GWFs would have a set of encounters AoE DPS for PvE, and a set of single target DPS encounters for PvP
Now, you have the same set up in PvP, with PvE parties that require all 5 classes to work well:
- DC to heal
- TR for boss and miniboss, Single Target DPS
- GF to kite and tank the mobs, keeping them packed together in a point
- CW to cc the mobs, to give some breath to the GF and DC, and helping the GF to keep the mobs packed in a single
spot
- and finally the GWF to stay near the tank and unleash AoE DPS, Killing the adds and helping the party to clear mob
crowd fast
To me, this is the way it's supposed to work. Devs too said, when they explained the changes in GWF dailies, that they want the GWF to be the AoE DPSrs.
Well, isn't it time they turn all their talking into actual changes to the game?
Cause as rojor said, GWF end game PvE is close to nothing (unless you've a guild and good guild mates that let you join out of pure pity). To say it better, there's no role for them in a dungeon run.
Yeah, there's Always someone that drops in and says "guys, it's just that you're not good enough".
So: pelase share with us which rotation, setup, build can make the average GWF do more AoE damage than a CW. And which specific role they cover that can't be covered by a second CW.
Also: looks like we're welcome by you, but not by 90% of people forming parties for epic dungeons. And the reason is Always the same: we're not needed. TRs single damage is much better to tank a boss, CW AoE damage is the best. You're not a tank. Not needed, sorry.
Which role the GWF is absolutely required to cover in your parties? Single target DPS? AoE DPS? Healing? Tank? CC? Or are you just saying that you join them, even if you don't really need them/ would perform better with a second CW?
Those people who say: "GWF is already GOOD" or "Iam very happy to play with good GWF" CAN NOT explain or answer your question pando83.
I DARE WHOEVER YOU ARE, TO EXPLAIN HOW GWF CAN BE MORE USEFUL THAN CW IN PVE Dungeon!!!
I don't play one, and the purpose isn't to out dps CWs, but GWFs are semi tank and semi dps, which is perfect if well played. Since i don't know how other people play their characters, i'm of course unable to answer your question. I can only say when it's well played, just not telling how you can do that.
So in short you might be relying on an experience several patches ago ,where an extremely specific build may have been able to make the class perform adequately (being able to out dps a cw) yet you can't even tell us how it was done as you don't play one and never have ? yet are still insisting that it is still the case and to get moar skill. Now i do not want you to take this the wrong way ,but please go.
So, let me get it. You don't play a GWF. You never played one. You basically come here and say "i've seen someone doing well in dungeons as a GWF".
Well, i do play a GWF. And in every dungeon run i've been in, even the few epic ones when i've been lucky, i scored Always in the first two positions for damage and kills. Second when there was a TR (almost Always). What does this means?
I just means that with the old slam daily and our single target powers, we could be second DPSrs and killers (and this was pre-nerf).
What does it means being second DPSrs? Nothing. Absolutely, nothing.
Also, being a second AoE damager, behind the CW, means nothing.
Also, being a second tank, behind the GF means nothing.
Why getting a second, less efficient DPS/ AoE DPS/ TANK when you can just take the most efficient one?
That's why it's TR and not GWF, CW and not GWF, GF and not GWF. Cause a hybrid class in PvE have no use. Cause a party needs specialization to be the best in a specific role.
We also perform very well in PvP. But that doesn't make us any more useful in PvE.
Things needed in a dungeon are: a healer (DC), a DPS (TR), cc (CW), tank (GF), and AoE DPS (CW, again).
Force a GWF to use ONLY AoE skills, as they are right now, in a dungeon run, and see how well he performs.
But, again, even not knowing the class, you should just look around: players who run the high end epic dungeons figured out what i wrote before. And looking at them, the other players started to do the same. That's why GWFs are almost never invited in dungeons at lvl 60.
The random guy dropping in and saying "you're wrong, i've seen them doing good in dungeons!!!", doesn't change the fact that GWFs are out of the end game PvE.
You misunderstand I'm NOT a GWF I'm a GF. And yes I've seen the Good GWF's too, and the reason they are rare is because all the Good GWF's out gear everyone else in the group. When I group with a known good GWF and a Good CW's comes long the CW will equal or exceed an equally geared good GWF's damage.
As a fighter I feel bad now that GF finally got a spot in ONE dungeon and the GWF is still completely left out. Because the Devs cannot fix the class.
But to fix the class they need to think of how players view the GWF's One of the reason why the GWF's suffer s omuch is that the GWF has been an absolutely terrible class since open beta and that has not changed in the slightest. Players are used to the GWF being bad. And if the Devs ever did make the GWF on par ... Finally. Nothing will change because players still are used to the GWF being a subpar class.
Alot of the other players I know dont even realize that the GWF's AP generation and Slam damage dropped like a rock in last patch. I only know because I read the fighter forums. And they still think the GWF is the same old baddie and not even more worse off since last patch.
The class needs a buff that players will notice. Not this garbage Slam damage mitigation that know one has yet to see. And I thought activating Slam was supposed to interrupt or stun mobs I've seen enough GWF use slam and I notice nothing. My Terrifying Impact is still a much better Aoe Interupt move.
There's alot more CW's then GWF's. and GWF performs bad when mobs fly all over the map. So groups that allready have a CW with em don't wanna have a GWF coz it can't perform their best. Exclude the CW and grab another GWF instead. People are still stuck on using builds and strategies that they were using in the Beta. I prefer the runs with GF,DC, 2 GWF and TR tbh. CW's have a tendency to get em self and party killed when fing stuff all over the map. Tank looses aggro, Location heals becomes useless coz mobs are everywere etz.
^^ there is a certain truth to this. Though it is probably not advised for general population or even high-geared groups since CW can also bring High Vizier debuff, the strongest debuff in the game and just as strong on single targets as aoe. It also stacks with other CWs. However,
Prior to Feywild, CW's had good synergy with melee aoe and therefore GWFs.
Before most CW's were using Arcane Singularity and Icy Terrain as a core part of their spell priority and gathering mobs to control and aoe in one location which enabled low-target cap, melee classes like GWFs and GFs to add their damage, debuffs and control. In addition, most trash mobs were CC-able.
Now after the huge AP nerfs to CWs and with Malabog's many CC-immune mobs, that type of centralized "control" is not worth using except very occasionally. It is far easier on CW's to just spam their highest aoe damage spells and almost ignore control (even Steal Time is now used as damage rather than control). Unfortunately, that means mobs remain all over the place or are even scattered by CW spells. This has very low synergy with melee aoe.
Thus, if you have even one CW post-Feywild, it is better to have more CWs because either they will provide more non-melee aoe (which has higher synergy with itself) OR there is a chance/option one of them will try to use a limited control playstyle when it is needed.
In addition, for melee due to presence of so many CC-immune elites, it makes more sense to bring high single target damage classes, i.e. TRs and GFs.
Thus, the value of GWFs is lowered even further in PvE on top of their nerfs...
Summary: value of control reduced by AP nerfs to CWs and type of mobs in Malabog. Aoe damage CW's bring has low synergy with melee aoe. Single target damage also has higher value in new content, favoring TR and GF.
Disclaimer. My main is CW and I have a GF and DC (all CN-geared). I have no GWF.
well this is how i played my gwf in cn boss.pretending to do stuff. funny thing was no one noticed a thing.i come close to cw kill one archer then run around like pulling stuff,then i hit boss 2 times but not more then archer again lol.and that is what i call experience
Yeah. But again: dungeon parties require specialization. GWF have no specialization in PvE. GWFs are the least class wanted in a dungeon party.
What do you get from this? That they need specialization in something for PvE, or they'll keep being left out of dungeons. It's not rocket science.
back to topic, I've played with a few good GWFs, and some whose gear aren't even socketed. I'm not sure how tho.
It already eliminated The idea not about Malabogs Castle only
Castle never ,other dung
Already GWF had no use at all in Dun
The only weapon set and gear that pass 1.2k Million AD is GWF =.=
He Cannot Tank either can't make high single Damage per second either can't make longed ranged aoe skills
GWF is already is out of game as pvp been nefred in unstoppable ,still had old bugs that cause it to not work untill switch maps sometime and Don't forget 11 or 12% deflect nerf too
Will it bad fact
Was the same thing in CoH, could debuff ressistance down to negative numbers. It's very very simple. Highest debuff/buff should be the only one that counts.
Hmm, I kinda disagree. Roar and Come and Get It are great at pulling more mobs into a Singularity, or just gathering the mobs close for more AoE damage. As mob-herders GWFs do fine. But you will need a CW who knows when to Sing and when to do something else.
Were GWFs get into trouble, imo, is that we don't have the same target-caps as a CW. So even though they just sucked up 15 mobs, we're only hitting a few of them, before the mobs get punted off the cliff. And what's the point of trying to kill things when they get thrown off anyway?
Way I see it, GWFs should be the AoE dps to complete the CW AoE skills, but as it is now, CW have both the CC and the AoE dps, leaving the GWF with nothing but a big stick and fast feet.
I don't want any class nerfed (I play all five classes), and I definitely love my GWF because it's versatile. But like people said in this thread, a jack of all trades just doesn't cut it when the other classes are experts.
Aren't they just uber-geared? Do you know a very good and successful 10k gwf?
Its not that GWF's are uneeded, or worthless after 60, its that people think they are. Liken it to a group of kids who don't let little Jimmy play with them because they all have Transformers and he has a Go-Bot, so he's not good enough.