Maybe some of us are secure in the knowledge that we don't need acceptance of others and therefore don't need to play pvp for a boost in self confidence.
That isnt true. Im not at all strictly pvp player.
But I do enjoy playing pvp just as much as pve and those are not any reasons at all that I play. That is a heavily false generalizing statement.
Maybe some of us are secure in the knowledge that we don't need acceptance of others and therefore don't need to play pvp for a boost in self confidence.
then online gaming is not for you this is parade of ego nothing more, for some more for some less but its like that
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slayorianMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
they were near perfect pre-feywild patch. They went and messed them up again.
What they need is thier utility skills buffed
-Not So Fast -increased damage and radius)
-Mighty Leap - Longer immunity during animation jumping
-Come and Get It - Increased radius, damage buff longer
-Punishing Charge- Increased range and/or damage
-Daring Shout- Increased cone range and damage resistance
-Restoring Strike- Having a slight heal increase. (the heal is very low for an encounter ability, a GF Crushing surge heals just as much and it is an At-Will )
-Slam- The damage it gives can stay the same, but its duration needs to be the same as it was before, if not a second or two longer. Not shorter.
-Reaping Strike- damage boost and increased determination gain while charging. (the damage can remain split between multiple targets as it is currently as long as the hit cap is removed), An alternative to the previous, the full power charge of this move could provide knock back instead with twice the distance Shout gives.
General things:
-Hit caps removed-
-Unstoppable reverted exactly like it was before pre-feywild patch- (minus the occasional bug that permenantly prevents its use until log out or zone change)
-Steel Blitz- chance rate increased-
-Powerful Challenge- Marked targets no longer dissappear when damaged, but dissappear after a set amount of time, but do not stack with new marks until old ones time has run out.
These are more going to in the right direction with GWF. Changes like these widens and encourages differing playstyles without inhibiting the class as a whole. Changes like the ones I stated above will put the GWF into as close as the vision stated in the first post the closest it will every be.
Totally opposite of the changes implemented in the Feywild patch.
Can't disagree with this at all. Would help in fixing GWF quite a bit.
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katbozejziemiMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 856Arc User
No it is not ego. It was a response to someone flailing his e-peen in answering someone else about pvp.
He/she got the point and pointed out my generalizing statement. No reason for you to jump in when you failed to follow who answered what.
not one point was made except on my side.you can talk silly all day i never lost in logic all my life coz i dont despize the truth and dont have hidden agenda.and the point was its impossibile to make pvp,pve viable gwf now you can beat around the bush but you lost long time ago
in fact lets make a challenge i will find a same geared group and if gwf is first in cn or mc in dps and can beat me one on one in pvp right after with the same build i give him my 400 dragon egs if not he gives me only 100.now thats more then fair who wants a go.
then online gaming is not for you this is parade of ego nothing more, for some more for some less but its like that
And here I thought it was just a game. But maybe for the likes of you who suffer from an inferiority complex, you need that ego stroked constantly. Fortunately you represent a small minority, basically a nuisance we just have to deal with to get our MMO fix.
not one point was made except on my side.you can talk silly all day i never lost in logic all my life coz i dont despize the truth and dont have hidden agenda.and the point was its impossibile to make pvp,pve viable gwf now you can beat around the bush but you lost long time ago
I tried using Google Translate to understand this amazing insight and this is what I got:
కాదు ఒకానొక నా side.you మినహాయిస్తే చేశారు i తర్కం లో నేను పాయింట్ ఇప్పుడు pvp, pve ఆచరణీయ gwf చేయడానికి దాని impossibile ఉంది agenda.and దాచివేశారు నిజం despize డోంట్ మరియు డోంట్ అన్ని నా జీవితంలో coz కోల్పోలేదు రోజంతా వెర్రి మాట్లాడవచ్చు మీరు బుష్ చుట్టూ ఓడించి కానీ మీరు క్రితం కాలం కోల్పోయింది
And here I thought it was just a game. But maybe for the likes of you who suffer from an inferiority complex, you need that ego stroked constantly. Fortunately you represent a small minority, basically a nuisance we just have to deal with to get our MMO fix.
I tried using Google Translate to understand this amazing insight and this is what I got:
కాదు ఒకానొక నా side.you మినహాయిస్తే చేశారు i తర్కం లో నేను పాయింట్ ఇప్పుడు pvp, pve ఆచరణీయ gwf చేయడానికి దాని impossibile ఉంది agenda.and దాచివేశారు నిజం despize డోంట్ మరియు డోంట్ అన్ని నా జీవితంలో coz కోల్పోలేదు రోజంతా వెర్రి మాట్లాడవచ్చు మీరు బుష్ చుట్టూ ఓడించి కానీ మీరు క్రితం కాలం కోల్పోయింది
lol sorry, I couldnt help it.
all i get from you is same HAMSTER over and over you lost an argument long time ago...you have nothing but malicious intentions coz you cant beat me with logic
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reagan247Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
they were near perfect pre-feywild patch. They went and messed them up again.
What they need is thier utility skills buffed
-Not So Fast -increased damage and radius)
-Mighty Leap - Longer immunity during animation jumping
-Come and Get It - Increased radius, damage buff longer
-Punishing Charge- Increased range and/or damage
-Daring Shout- Increased cone range and damage resistance
-Restoring Strike- Having a slight heal increase. (the heal is very low for an encounter ability, a GF Crushing surge heals just as much and it is an At-Will )
-Slam- The damage it gives can stay the same, but its duration needs to be the same as it was before, if not a second or two longer. Not shorter.
-Reaping Strike- damage boost and increased determination gain while charging. (the damage can remain split between multiple targets as it is currently as long as the hit cap is removed), An alternative to the previous, the full power charge of this move could provide knock back instead with twice the distance Shout gives.
General things:
-Hit caps removed-
-Unstoppable reverted exactly like it was before pre-feywild patch- (minus the occasional bug that permenantly prevents its use until log out or zone change)
-Steel Blitz- chance rate increased-
-Powerful Challenge- Marked targets no longer dissappear when damaged, but dissappear after a set amount of time, but do not stack with new marks until old ones time has run out.
These are more going to in the right direction with GWF. Changes like these widens and encourages differing playstyles without inhibiting the class as a whole. Changes like the ones I stated above will put the GWF into as close as the vision stated in the first post the closest it will every be.
Totally opposite of the changes implemented in the Feywild patch.
Ok seriously people, can I please hear from other GWFs who are still doing very well, despite the changes?
Ok yes, there are some issues. We were promised Unstoppable fixed and it wasn't. Our Slam damage got nerfed and in turn lowered our dps (slightly). Sure some of our Powers/Dailies/Feats could use some adjustments or tweaks. But come on! It's like practically everyone is on the bandwagon of GWF being a dead class, which is far from the truth.
I am running a Destroyer with less than 12k GS, 1500 LifeSteal, Slotting combination of Roar/Daring Shout/Mighty leap/IBS, SOLO tanking any T2, including Malabog's Castle, STILL topping damage over 12k+ GS TRs/CWs with Greater enchants (over 2mil ahead in Malabog's Castle thanks to no opportunity for CW punting). As much as I would love ANY buff to the class, many if not all of these issues are greatly exaggerated.
We can 100% tank, not OFF-Tank. In fact in many cases better than GFs. We can generate aggro by means of dps. And we can certainly AoE. We may not have the CW burst AoE, but we can definitely pump out similar damage from WMS spam.
I totally understand the "intentions" of all this hysteria. I think many people feel the more we exaggerate the better our chances of getting some buff. And I do agree with some of the issues to some degree, but these reactions are way over the top IMHO.
finally, someone who gets it. Just because our damage was toned down, it absolutely does not mean GWF are useless. The class requires intelligence now instead of facerolling on the unstoppable and slam buttons to win.
finally, someone who gets it. Just because our damage was toned down, it absolutely does not mean GWF are useless. The class requires intelligence now instead of facerolling on the unstoppable and slam buttons to win.
not one viable build that can pve,pvp and you speak abouth inteligence.some people have no shame.
Ok, I think copticone missed a few concepts, or I might be mixing threads, I don't know nor do I really see a reason to dig into it, since my expectations arn't really hig on this subject anymore.
yes, you can use the gwf destroyer. (I use it, and choose it because you could build it to be viable, *not uber but decently good* in both pve and pvp, I enjoy both.)
I'm a tad sentimental to my gwf because it's my first character and I like(d) him (he wasn't really good when I lvl'ed him, but they gave the gwf some love, and I felt it was pretty on par with other classes)*
*Then I played a few other classes, and while those classes had allot worse gear I found they were generally more usefull in pve, and/or did better in pvp. (except maybe the cleric, but played him the least, still work in progress i guess
I read something about doing more dmg and getting more dmg on you than the cleric and cw.. ofc!!! you would be a horrible gwf if you wouldnt get more dmg on yourself than cw and the cleric.!?! lol!
*that was just a silly statement?!*
101. how to collect dps and dps done on you
1. rush into group, and swing wildly before the rest of the group gets there ..
yes, you will get more kills on the small mobs, because you'r inside the with the small buggers
if your not getting more kills, you'r doing something wrong.. (but would the group really feel worse by having any other class with them?).. most likely not. Actually, they will even find the run easyer and faster, and more controlled.
*gettin whats being said? there is sadly not much brainwork in that..
Just because you'r rushing ahead of the others and dishing out some dps untill the group catches upp doesn't make it good lol.
*in fact if the cw would be able to rush like you do, he would outDps you by so much your behind would cry.*
Don't get me wrong, I love playing gwf, I really do. I can use it, and I probably will(now and then for sentimental reasons), but am I not making it worse for everyone else by using it.. ? probably but my friends and guildies bear with me and show me pity since i'm pretty fun to be around ;D
but to be honest, I use my other classes more now. *pretty simple isn't it?*
Ok, I think copticone missed a few concepts, or I might be mixing threads, I don't know nor do I really see a reason to dig into it, since my expectations arn't really hig on this subject anymore.
yes, you can use the gwf destroyer. (I use it, and choose it because you could build it to be viable, *not uber but decently good* in both pve and pvp, I enjoy both.)
I'm a tad sentimental to my gwf because it's my first character and I like(d) him (he wasn't really good when I lvl'ed him, but they gave the gwf some love, and I felt it was pretty on par with other classes)*
*Then I played a few other classes, and while those classes had allot worse gear I found they were generally more usefull in pve, and/or did better in pvp. (except maybe the cleric, but played him the least, still work in progress i guess
I totally understand, and I wasn't directing my post to you or anyone specifically. I know the class still has some issues. But all I am saying is that it is not to the extent that warrants this ridiculous hysteria of thread after thread saying the GWF is dead. It isnt, not by a mile. My main is CW so I can definitely relate to some of the issues given the utility CWs bring. But in all honestly it really has more to do with the content and less about the classes. Most of the content is tailored for CWs. Malabog's Castle is a step in the right direction, and even on our first run we didnt bring ANY CWs.
I read something about doing more dmg and getting more dmg on you than the cleric and cw.. ofc!!! you would be a horrible gwf if you wouldnt get more dmg on yourself than cw and the cleric.!?! lol!
*that was just a silly statement?!*
101. how to collect dps and dps done on you
1. rush into group, and swing wildly before the rest of the group gets there ..
yes, you will get more kills on the small mobs, because you'r inside the with the small buggers
if your not getting more kills, you'r doing something wrong.. (but would the group really feel worse by having any other class with them?).. most likely not. Actually, they will even find the run easyer and faster, and more controlled.
*gettin whats being said? there is sadly not much brainwork in that..
Just because you'r rushing ahead of the others and dishing out some dps untill the group catches upp doesn't make it good lol.
*in fact if the cw would be able to rush like you do, he would outDps you by so much your behind would cry.*
Don't get me wrong, I love playing gwf, I really do. I can use it, and I probably will(now and then for sentimental reasons), but am I not making it worse for everyone else by using it.. ? probably but my friends and guildies bear with me and show me pity since i'm pretty fun to be around ;D
but to be honest, I use my other classes more now. *pretty simple isn't it?*
You are taking my comment out of context. I was replying to the many comments claiming that GWFs cant tank or draw aggro. The only direct proof that we can do both is the Damage Taken scorecard. And this is in NO WAY due to the GWF just rushing in first. If we weren't generating enough threat we wouldnt be able to hold aggro and get hit as much. This also shows that our AoE damage is adequate enough to at least accomplish that. In fact, given that I tried all 3 trees, from my experience generating threat as a Destroyer through raw DPS is a lot more effective than the threat feats of Sentinel.
You really can't give me lessons about GWFs and certainly no need for the "101. how to collect dps bla bla bla" sarcasm. Lets be a little bit more mature if we want to have a serious discussion.
I do WAY more than rush in and spam the "small buggers".
- I can hold the aggro running with CWs using max AoE dps CW spec in my Sig.
- I have a AoE INTERRUPT that's on an 8.6sec Cooldown. Yea you know how many mobs do nasty AoEs and Cleaves? I stop those, not one at a time, but multiples.
- I Mark targets all around me, and despite the naysayers, the Marks last long enough, and sometimes the full 8seconds with Stuns.
- I provide 45% debuff to everything I am hitting PASSIVELY, without the need to use an encounter or weapon enchants.
- I can kite hordes of adds if situation is called for, like last phase of Spellplague
- As a GWF, I am arguably the BEST class to run in AoEs to revive a fallen party member, which is often the TR. And if/when the TR is down for good, which happens often no matter how many freaking smokebombs they throw, the fight goes on and often 4man and even 3man bosses.
- The GWF can do the speed run in CN getting the Fire Camps, just like a TR. In fact there are some groups that take 2xGWFs and ZERO TRs for CN speed runs.
I clear T2 content on my GWF just like I do on my CW. Do I think CWs have an edge? Sure, in the CC department. But there are DEFINITELY situations where not even the BEST CW of ANY server can do what a good GWF can accomplish. I can fill in for a GF and even a TR. Will the boss go down faster with a TR on it instead of me? Of course. But so what? Taking down the boss in practically EVERY T2 is the easiest part. Exploits aside, the only boss that a TR will make things alot easier is the Spider Queen.
The above is not me bragging. I know quite a few GWFs that do the same thing much better than I do.
Tired of folks who think they know about the numbers...let me spell it out for you in regards to dailies and DPS.
I won't run dungeons or DD nor will I pvp and here is why.
Not So Fast = 5.5% Regardless of targets hit: 0% on miss
Indomitable Battle Strike = 6.5% Regardless of targets hit: Bonus on a kill
Roar= 6.5% Regardless of targets hit: 0% on miss
Wicked Strike=1.5% per target: 0% on miss
Weapon master strike 1.5% per target: 0% on miss
So I can do a full encounter rotation and have less than 20% AP. Lowest cool down is Not So Fast at 9.9s with current recovery. The other two are over 10 seconds. For the following example I round all to 10s.
Using just encounters in the first rotation nets 20%. 10 seconds until next rotation.
Five full rotations to reach 100% for a daily. So in a perfect world and chaining encounters it would take the following time.
20% at 3 seconds
40% at 13 seconds
60% at 23 seconds
80% at 33 seconds
100% at 43 seconds for full AP.
Using just at-wills with ~1.5 second animation time and hitting 5 mobs would generate roughly 7.5%.
So in a perfect world with mobs not moving and me not dodging red ground or mob hits nor missing the hits is as follows:
13.3 X 1.5 seconds = Hitting 5 mobs for 20 seconds for a daily.
16.6 X 1.5 seconds = Hitting 4 mobs for 24.9 seconds for a daily
22.2 X 1.5 seconds = Hitting 3 mobs for 33.3 seconds for a daily.
33.3X 1.5 seconds = Hitting 2 mobs for 49.9 seconds for a daily.
66.6X 1.5 seconds = Hitting 1 mobs for 99.9 seconds for a daily.
GWF is an AOE class. The less mobs on the board the less AP we regen. When there is more than 5 mobs on the board then we should be generating massive amounts of AP to deal with the large number of mobs. That was working as designed before the patch using our encounters. Now that they have removed AP generation regardless of mobs hit our AP generation has tanked which means less dailies meaning less DPS.
When there is only one mob it takes us longer generate full AP, after all we are an AOE class . Now we are stuck with the same constraint regardless of mob count.
I talked with other class members in the guild and they did tests to see how long it would take to generate AP.
The best was 9 seconds. Yes 9 seconds. From empty to full using encounters.
The worst was GWF as shown above.
GWF job is to take out the trash. Given the current state. You are better off taking ANY class that is NOT a GWF.
Nothing much to say here other than my PVE enjoyment was trying to keep #1 DPS against my guild which always depended on the dungeon. I normally finished in top 2 and lowest was 3. Now I am lucky to get 3rd and usually end up just above the DC.
Recap. AOE class no longer generates AP to handle large groups of mobs. Stuck generating AP against SINGLE target.
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reagenlionel1Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Tired of folks who think they know about the numbers...let me spell it out for you in regards to dailies and DPS.
I won't run dungeons or DD nor will I pvp and here is why.
Not So Fast = 5.5% Regardless of targets hit: 0% on miss
Indomitable Battle Strike = 6.5% Regardless of targets hit: Bonus on a kill
Roar= 6.5% Regardless of targets hit: 0% on miss
Wicked Strike=1.5% per target: 0% on miss
Weapon master strike 1.5% per target: 0% on miss
So I can do a full encounter rotation and have less than 20% AP. Lowest cool down is Not So Fast at 9.9s with current recovery. The other two are over 10 seconds. For the following example I round all to 10s.
Using just encounters in the first rotation nets 20%. 10 seconds until next rotation.
Five full rotations to reach 100% for a daily. So in a perfect world and chaining encounters it would take the following time.
20% at 3 seconds
40% at 13 seconds
60% at 23 seconds
80% at 33 seconds
100% at 43 seconds for full AP.
Using just at-wills with ~1.5 second animation time and hitting 5 mobs would generate roughly 7.5%.
So in a perfect world with mobs not moving and me not dodging red ground or mob hits nor missing the hits is as follows:
13.3 X 1.5 seconds = Hitting 5 mobs for 20 seconds for a daily.
16.6 X 1.5 seconds = Hitting 4 mobs for 24.9 seconds for a daily
22.2 X 1.5 seconds = Hitting 3 mobs for 33.3 seconds for a daily.
33.3X 1.5 seconds = Hitting 2 mobs for 49.9 seconds for a daily.
66.6X 1.5 seconds = Hitting 1 mobs for 99.9 seconds for a daily.
GWF is an AOE class. The less mobs on the board the less AP we regen. When there is more than 5 mobs on the board then we should be generating massive amounts of AP to deal with the large number of mobs. That was working as designed before the patch using our encounters. Now that they have removed AP generation regardless of mobs hit our AP generation has tanked which means less dailies meaning less DPS.
When there is only one mob it takes us longer generate full AP, after all we are an AOE class . Now we are stuck with the same constraint regardless of mob count.
I talked with other class members in the guild and they did tests to see how long it would take to generate AP.
The best was 9 seconds. Yes 9 seconds. From empty to full using encounters.
The worst was GWF as shown above.
GWF job is to take out the trash. Given the current state. You are better off taking ANY class that is NOT a GWF.
Nothing much to say here other than my PVE enjoyment was trying to keep #1 DPS against my guild which always depended on the dungeon. I normally finished in top 2 and lowest was 3. Now I am lucky to get 3rd and usually end up just above the DC.
Recap. AOE class no longer generates AP to handle large groups of mobs. Stuck generating AP against SINGLE target.
So in a nutshell...Copticone SHUT THE **** UP. You admit your main is a CW. My main IS a GWF.
I'm pretty sure we get aditional AP for when we kill stuff aswell. Kill the trash, more AP
Recap. AOE class no longer generates AP to handle large groups of mobs. Stuck generating AP against SINGLE target.
So in a nutshell...Copticone SHUT THE **** UP. You admit your main is a CW. My main IS a GWF.
I didnt bother quoting the wall of nonsense you posted, because it IS nonsense. Maybe YOUR GWF generate AP as you described. Certainly not mine. Maybe YOUR GWF sucks at handling large groups of mobs. Certainly not mine or others I run with. Oh I forgot, you're the guy with the Avalanche of Steel aren't you? And you probably think firing off Avalanche a few seconds faster will make you a better GWF. Well your circle of buddies you run with certainly aren't going to miss your GWF if all you brought was your Daily before the last update.
Yes my main is a CW, because it was my first 60 and spent the most hours on it. Now I play my 60 GWF as well as 60 DC just as much as my CW. You know this is how sane people make an informed comparison. The difference between us is that your GWF is not just your MAIN, but your ONLY 60. So practically all your distorted facts about other classes are second hand at best. So in a nutshell...Tarmalen SHUT THE ******* cabinet door on your shelved GWF and dont worry about him collecting dust. It wasn't anything special to begin with
My guild is full of GWFs, and very few TRs and we do not have a problem with content, sure their single target damage is not as great as a TR but its managable.
But still saying that GWFs are not a high demand class, which is easily replaced by another. the reason why is because a GWF does not have anything special it can do for the group, all it can do is flat damage and minor debuffs. To make them wanted would require many changes not more flat damage (which can be replaced by a wizard who does damage/control/debuff). But more party/self beneficial things like group buffs/shouts, maybe a feat that gives hp/sec to allies when using unstoppable and fix the threat feats.
If GWFs cannot bring something new to the table then why bother with them?
I seriously doubt people would treat GWFs differently even if their AoE got boosted.
So in a nutshell...Copticone SHUT THE **** UP. You admit your main is a CW. My main IS a GWF.
lololol
If GWFs cannot bring something new to the table then why bother with them?
hmmm we gonna be viable again in pvp and kick your *** so hard its gonna be funny like it used to be and suposed to be thats why. lol.
I do not see the logic here, just because someone has more than 1 character. I personally have invest more AD on my gwf than my CW, Cant a person play 2 classes and enjoy them both?
- I can hold the aggro running with CWs using max AoE dps CW spec in my Sig.
- I have a AoE INTERRUPT that's on an 8.6sec Cooldown. Yea you know how many mobs do nasty AoEs and Cleaves? I stop those, not one at a time, but multiples.
- As a GWF, I am arguably the BEST class to run in AoEs to revive a fallen party member, which is often the TR. And if/when the TR is down for good, which happens often no matter how many freaking smokebombs they throw, the fight goes on and often 4man and even 3man bosses.
- The GWF can do the speed run in CN getting the Fire Camps, just like a TR. In fact there are some groups that take 2xGWFs and ZERO TRs for CN speed runs.
And I've done 4-man Traven Blackdagger, without a GF in the party, on my poorly geared Destroyer GWF, without taking any damage from any his special attacks (and with him focusing almost entirely on me), except for a few ticks of his fire bomb. I've also done him with a full party and seen GFs get 2-shotted by him. Now, is this because GWFs really shine in such a fight, while GFs usually suck, or is it more plausible to just say that I simply know the pace of the fight, whereas they didn't?
I know I'm giving an example of an epic dungeon you can do with greens, but my contention is that the same principle (that knowing a fight causes you to avoid a lot of nasty things) applies for all dungeons, no matter if they are T1 or T2.
So with all due respect, I consider that your argument about how awesome GWFs are at reviving fallen party members is silly.
Also, how many mobs have nasty AoEs and Cleaves? I'm not being sarcastic here, I'm asking with genuine curiosity. And we're not talking about trash throughout the dungeon here, are we? Sure, you'll interrupt the cleavers at, say, Spider boss... for 1 second. What do you do for the next 7.6 seconds?
"You want proof? Go play your GWF and adapt. Why waste my time to stream videos and post screenshots?"
so you can make a 2 guides and have time for that but cant make a screenshot to prove a point?it takes just 2 min to post screenshot. your guides took days man.that sent build of yours cant top nothing in dungeon and still sucks in pvp.so you made a destroyer which you claim to :
"STILL topping damage over 12k+ GS TRs/CWs with Greater enchants"
" I said ANY T2, including CN, and even CN speed run,"
you top all dungeons but not one screenshoot lol. but even so its complete and utter failure at pvp not even good enough for pugs.so all you do is failure but still saying that gwf is viable pvp,pve and all should learn to play lololol.
I didnt bother quoting the wall of nonsense you posted, because it IS nonsense. Maybe YOUR GWF generate AP as you described. Certainly not mine. Maybe YOUR GWF sucks at handling large groups of mobs. Certainly not mine or others I run with. Oh I forgot, you're the guy with the Avalanche of Steel aren't you? And you probably think firing off Avalanche a few seconds faster will make you a better GWF. Well your circle of buddies you run with certainly aren't going to miss your GWF if all you brought was your Daily before the last update.
Yes my main is a CW, because it was my first 60 and spent the most hours on it. Now I play my 60 GWF as well as 60 DC just as much as my CW. You know this is how sane people make an informed comparison. The difference between us is that your GWF is not just your MAIN, but your ONLY 60. So practically all your distorted facts about other classes are second hand at best. So in a nutshell...Tarmalen SHUT THE ******* cabinet door on your shelved GWF and dont worry about him collecting dust. It wasn't anything special to begin with
You aren't the brightest bulb are you?
Trade of blades is a good place to test things out. How about you test baseline numbers about AP generation before you spout your BS. How about you time your encounter rotations to see how long it takes. How about you ask other classes how long it takes them to generate a full bar from empty using nothing but encounters?
That doesnt sound right. Skills that does little damage but has an effect additionally gained AP based on how many opponents were hit.
IF this was intentional. GF frontline surge would have gotten this nerf even more so than the nerf done to Roar and Daring Shout. As well as Master: Repel, Sudden Storm, Shard of Avalanche, Steal Time (I'm pretty sure Mastery: Conduit of Ice as well, but I never used that on Mastery)
And these are a mix of utility and damage encounters.
For the GWF At-Will and Utility and few aoe damage encounters it has to be nerfed in AP generation just doesnt make any sense taking that into consideration, when the only other skill that got the same treatment was the Devoted Clerics's damage/healing skill.
So...an AOE class has AP generation removed. Classic.
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axven3Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 1Arc User
edited August 2013
Sigh sad thing is most of these people are destroyer build.Why haven't you fixed the aggro mechanics in the sentinel paragon.
Your being lazy , cutting slams power and adding "utility". Why is it only one paragon is favored for pve?Why is it when i use daring shout with 5000 power i still can't pull aggro?.Why is it ?Cryptic u need to take a break from trying to snipe peoples pockets and fix your core game/class mechanics.I don't care how many more races/ classes you release. I want to know why haven't you fixed my class my paragon.The one i have been spending time and money on.Is it that u don't value my money. ONE WORD BETHESDA.....
Trade of blades is a good place to test things out. How about you test baseline numbers about AP generation before you spout your BS. How about you time your encounter rotations to see how long it takes. How about you ask other classes how long it takes them to generate a full bar from empty using nothing but encounters?
Oh I probably spent more time on training dummies than you have spent on these forums lol.
I have 3/5 Unstoppable Action and a Destroyer. If I remember correctly, you said once before that you were an Instigator, and maybe that's part of the reason you are having issues. That said. I generate 100% AP anywhere between 13sec and 36seconds, and that includes Single Target.
I dont need to ask other Classes anything. Unlike you, I like to get my information first hand. On my CW, I get a full AP bar in an average of 24seconds. Can a CW fill his AP bar faster? Sure, by slotting EF on tab. I don't because to me it is a HUGE dps loss and pointless. In fact, generating AP at a slower rate not only allows me to do insane damage, but also allows my CW to provide more CC. Singularity bots, is a failed concept.
Again, I have no freaking idea why you are so hung up on dailies. It is not like we have a daily that does 50k AoE damage that you can use to maintain aggro on mobs.
And I've done 4-man Traven Blackdagger, without a GF in the party, on my poorly geared Destroyer GWF, without taking any damage from any his special attacks (and with him focusing almost entirely on me), except for a few ticks of his fire bomb. I've also done him with a full party and seen GFs get 2-shotted by him. Now, is this because GWFs really shine in such a fight, while GFs usually suck, or is it more plausible to just say that I simply know the pace of the fight, whereas they didn't?
I know I'm giving an example of an epic dungeon you can do with greens, but my contention is that the same principle (that knowing a fight causes you to avoid a lot of nasty things) applies for all dungeons, no matter if they are T1 or T2.
So with all due respect, I consider that your argument about how awesome GWFs are at reviving fallen party members is silly.
Also, how many mobs have nasty AoEs and Cleaves? I'm not being sarcastic here, I'm asking with genuine curiosity. And we're not talking about trash throughout the dungeon here, are we? Sure, you'll interrupt the cleavers at, say, Spider boss... for 1 second. What do you do for the next 7.6 seconds?
So your argument against everything I said, is that I am constantly running with morons who dont know their class and dont know their dungeons; practically a bunch of idiots standing there not doing much. Yet we are clearing all T2s and farming CN. You know what they say about ASSumptions? and you're calling my argument silly?
How many mobs have AoEs and Cleaves? are you serious? Of course since you can run Malabog with nothing but greens, then everything I am referring to is trivial to you. Also it seems you dont have much practice with Roar, it is not just an interrupt but a daze as well. So it is not just 1 second, but more like 2-3sec that you are disabling a group of mobs, in a 8.6. That's almost half the cooldown of a CW's Steal Time.
Oh I probably spent more time on training dummies than you have spent on these forums lol.
I have 3/5 Unstoppable Action and a Destroyer. If I remember correctly, you said once before that you were an Instigator, and maybe that's part of the reason you are having issues. That said. I generate 100% AP anywhere between 13sec and 36seconds, and that includes Single Target.
I dont need to ask other Classes anything. Unlike you, I like to get my information first hand. On my CW, I get a full AP bar in an average of 24seconds. Can a CW fill his AP bar faster? Sure, by slotting EF on tab. I don't because to me it is a HUGE dps loss and pointless. In fact, generating AP at a slower rate not only allows me to do insane damage, but also allows my CW to provide more CC. Singularity bots, is a failed concept.
Again, I have no freaking idea why you are so hung up on dailies. It is not like we have a daily that does 50k AoE damage that you can use to maintain aggro on mobs.
I don't want agro. and yes I have spiked well over 100k with avalanche. After all it has no target cap.
Not knocking you but I have 5/5 AP gain during unstoppable. I don't get hit much. Therefore no determination, ergo no AP.
Also my capstone says if I get hit I lose my capstone.
Comments
That isnt true. Im not at all strictly pvp player.
But I do enjoy playing pvp just as much as pve and those are not any reasons at all that I play. That is a heavily false generalizing statement.
then online gaming is not for you this is parade of ego nothing more, for some more for some less but its like that
Can't disagree with this at all. Would help in fixing GWF quite a bit.
No it is not ego. It was a response to someone flailing his e-peen in answering someone else about pvp.
He/she got the point and pointed out my generalizing statement. No reason for you to jump in when you failed to follow who answered what.
not one point was made except on my side.you can talk silly all day i never lost in logic all my life coz i dont despize the truth and dont have hidden agenda.and the point was its impossibile to make pvp,pve viable gwf now you can beat around the bush but you lost long time ago
And here I thought it was just a game. But maybe for the likes of you who suffer from an inferiority complex, you need that ego stroked constantly. Fortunately you represent a small minority, basically a nuisance we just have to deal with to get our MMO fix.
I tried using Google Translate to understand this amazing insight and this is what I got:
కాదు ఒకానొక నా side.you మినహాయిస్తే చేశారు i తర్కం లో నేను పాయింట్ ఇప్పుడు pvp, pve ఆచరణీయ gwf చేయడానికి దాని impossibile ఉంది agenda.and దాచివేశారు నిజం despize డోంట్ మరియు డోంట్ అన్ని నా జీవితంలో coz కోల్పోలేదు రోజంతా వెర్రి మాట్లాడవచ్చు మీరు బుష్ చుట్టూ ఓడించి కానీ మీరు క్రితం కాలం కోల్పోయింది
lol sorry, I couldnt help it.
all i get from you is same HAMSTER over and over you lost an argument long time ago...you have nothing but malicious intentions coz you cant beat me with logic
100% spot on!
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finally, someone who gets it. Just because our damage was toned down, it absolutely does not mean GWF are useless. The class requires intelligence now instead of facerolling on the unstoppable and slam buttons to win.
not one viable build that can pve,pvp and you speak abouth inteligence.some people have no shame.
yes, you can use the gwf destroyer. (I use it, and choose it because you could build it to be viable, *not uber but decently good* in both pve and pvp, I enjoy both.)
I'm a tad sentimental to my gwf because it's my first character and I like(d) him (he wasn't really good when I lvl'ed him, but they gave the gwf some love, and I felt it was pretty on par with other classes)*
*Then I played a few other classes, and while those classes had allot worse gear I found they were generally more usefull in pve, and/or did better in pvp. (except maybe the cleric, but played him the least, still work in progress i guess
I read something about doing more dmg and getting more dmg on you than the cleric and cw..
ofc!!! you would be a horrible gwf if you wouldnt get more dmg on yourself than cw and the cleric.!?! lol!
*that was just a silly statement?!*
101. how to collect dps and dps done on you
1. rush into group, and swing wildly before the rest of the group gets there ..
yes, you will get more kills on the small mobs, because you'r inside the with the small buggers
if your not getting more kills, you'r doing something wrong.. (but would the group really feel worse by having any other class with them?).. most likely not. Actually, they will even find the run easyer and faster, and more controlled.
*gettin whats being said? there is sadly not much brainwork in that..
Just because you'r rushing ahead of the others and dishing out some dps untill the group catches upp doesn't make it good lol.
*in fact if the cw would be able to rush like you do, he would outDps you by so much your behind would cry.*
Don't get me wrong, I love playing gwf, I really do. I can use it, and I probably will(now and then for sentimental reasons), but am I not making it worse for everyone else by using it.. ? probably
but to be honest, I use my other classes more now. *pretty simple isn't it?*
I totally understand, and I wasn't directing my post to you or anyone specifically. I know the class still has some issues. But all I am saying is that it is not to the extent that warrants this ridiculous hysteria of thread after thread saying the GWF is dead. It isnt, not by a mile. My main is CW so I can definitely relate to some of the issues given the utility CWs bring. But in all honestly it really has more to do with the content and less about the classes. Most of the content is tailored for CWs. Malabog's Castle is a step in the right direction, and even on our first run we didnt bring ANY CWs.
You are taking my comment out of context. I was replying to the many comments claiming that GWFs cant tank or draw aggro. The only direct proof that we can do both is the Damage Taken scorecard. And this is in NO WAY due to the GWF just rushing in first. If we weren't generating enough threat we wouldnt be able to hold aggro and get hit as much. This also shows that our AoE damage is adequate enough to at least accomplish that. In fact, given that I tried all 3 trees, from my experience generating threat as a Destroyer through raw DPS is a lot more effective than the threat feats of Sentinel.
You really can't give me lessons about GWFs and certainly no need for the "101. how to collect dps bla bla bla" sarcasm. Lets be a little bit more mature if we want to have a serious discussion.
I do WAY more than rush in and spam the "small buggers".
- I can hold the aggro running with CWs using max AoE dps CW spec in my Sig.
- I have a AoE INTERRUPT that's on an 8.6sec Cooldown. Yea you know how many mobs do nasty AoEs and Cleaves? I stop those, not one at a time, but multiples.
- I Mark targets all around me, and despite the naysayers, the Marks last long enough, and sometimes the full 8seconds with Stuns.
- I provide 45% debuff to everything I am hitting PASSIVELY, without the need to use an encounter or weapon enchants.
- I can kite hordes of adds if situation is called for, like last phase of Spellplague
- As a GWF, I am arguably the BEST class to run in AoEs to revive a fallen party member, which is often the TR. And if/when the TR is down for good, which happens often no matter how many freaking smokebombs they throw, the fight goes on and often 4man and even 3man bosses.
- The GWF can do the speed run in CN getting the Fire Camps, just like a TR. In fact there are some groups that take 2xGWFs and ZERO TRs for CN speed runs.
I clear T2 content on my GWF just like I do on my CW. Do I think CWs have an edge? Sure, in the CC department. But there are DEFINITELY situations where not even the BEST CW of ANY server can do what a good GWF can accomplish. I can fill in for a GF and even a TR. Will the boss go down faster with a TR on it instead of me? Of course. But so what? Taking down the boss in practically EVERY T2 is the easiest part. Exploits aside, the only boss that a TR will make things alot easier is the Spider Queen.
The above is not me bragging. I know quite a few GWFs that do the same thing much better than I do.
I won't run dungeons or DD nor will I pvp and here is why.
Not So Fast = 5.5% Regardless of targets hit: 0% on miss
Indomitable Battle Strike = 6.5% Regardless of targets hit: Bonus on a kill
Roar= 6.5% Regardless of targets hit: 0% on miss
Wicked Strike=1.5% per target: 0% on miss
Weapon master strike 1.5% per target: 0% on miss
So I can do a full encounter rotation and have less than 20% AP. Lowest cool down is Not So Fast at 9.9s with current recovery. The other two are over 10 seconds. For the following example I round all to 10s.
Using just encounters in the first rotation nets 20%. 10 seconds until next rotation.
Five full rotations to reach 100% for a daily. So in a perfect world and chaining encounters it would take the following time.
20% at 3 seconds
40% at 13 seconds
60% at 23 seconds
80% at 33 seconds
100% at 43 seconds for full AP.
Using just at-wills with ~1.5 second animation time and hitting 5 mobs would generate roughly 7.5%.
5 mobs hit: 100% / 7.5 =13.3
4 mobs hit: 100% /6% =16.6
3 mobs hit: 100% /4.5% =22.2
2 mobs hit: 100% /3% =33.3
1 mob hit :100% /1.5% = 66.6
So in a perfect world with mobs not moving and me not dodging red ground or mob hits nor missing the hits is as follows:
13.3 X 1.5 seconds = Hitting 5 mobs for 20 seconds for a daily.
16.6 X 1.5 seconds = Hitting 4 mobs for 24.9 seconds for a daily
22.2 X 1.5 seconds = Hitting 3 mobs for 33.3 seconds for a daily.
33.3X 1.5 seconds = Hitting 2 mobs for 49.9 seconds for a daily.
66.6X 1.5 seconds = Hitting 1 mobs for 99.9 seconds for a daily.
GWF is an AOE class. The less mobs on the board the less AP we regen. When there is more than 5 mobs on the board then we should be generating massive amounts of AP to deal with the large number of mobs. That was working as designed before the patch using our encounters. Now that they have removed AP generation regardless of mobs hit our AP generation has tanked which means less dailies meaning less DPS.
When there is only one mob it takes us longer generate full AP, after all we are an AOE class . Now we are stuck with the same constraint regardless of mob count.
I talked with other class members in the guild and they did tests to see how long it would take to generate AP.
The best was 9 seconds. Yes 9 seconds. From empty to full using encounters.
The worst was GWF as shown above.
GWF job is to take out the trash. Given the current state. You are better off taking ANY class that is NOT a GWF.
Nothing much to say here other than my PVE enjoyment was trying to keep #1 DPS against my guild which always depended on the dungeon. I normally finished in top 2 and lowest was 3. Now I am lucky to get 3rd and usually end up just above the DC.
Recap. AOE class no longer generates AP to handle large groups of mobs. Stuck generating AP against SINGLE target.
Thank you.
I'm pretty sure we get aditional AP for when we kill stuff aswell. Kill the trash, more AP
I didnt bother quoting the wall of nonsense you posted, because it IS nonsense. Maybe YOUR GWF generate AP as you described. Certainly not mine. Maybe YOUR GWF sucks at handling large groups of mobs. Certainly not mine or others I run with. Oh I forgot, you're the guy with the Avalanche of Steel aren't you? And you probably think firing off Avalanche a few seconds faster will make you a better GWF. Well your circle of buddies you run with certainly aren't going to miss your GWF if all you brought was your Daily before the last update.
Yes my main is a CW, because it was my first 60 and spent the most hours on it. Now I play my 60 GWF as well as 60 DC just as much as my CW. You know this is how sane people make an informed comparison. The difference between us is that your GWF is not just your MAIN, but your ONLY 60. So practically all your distorted facts about other classes are second hand at best. So in a nutshell...Tarmalen SHUT THE ******* cabinet door on your shelved GWF and dont worry about him collecting dust. It wasn't anything special to begin with
People who know how to play their class will always be an asset, even when they play the shunned stepchild-class.
But I do wonder how you can both draw agro so easily (and getting hit because of it) and keep the mobs marked (the mark goes away when they hit you).
You're right, the GWF can do a lot of things, but all of those things are done better by the other classes.
But still saying that GWFs are not a high demand class, which is easily replaced by another. the reason why is because a GWF does not have anything special it can do for the group, all it can do is flat damage and minor debuffs. To make them wanted would require many changes not more flat damage (which can be replaced by a wizard who does damage/control/debuff). But more party/self beneficial things like group buffs/shouts, maybe a feat that gives hp/sec to allies when using unstoppable and fix the threat feats.
If GWFs cannot bring something new to the table then why bother with them?
I seriously doubt people would treat GWFs differently even if their AoE got boosted.
and also the featured satirical comedic adventure "A Call for Heroes".
lololol
If GWFs cannot bring something new to the table then why bother with them?
hmmm we gonna be viable again in pvp and kick your *** so hard its gonna be funny like it used to be and suposed to be thats why. lol.
I do not see the logic here, just because someone has more than 1 character. I personally have invest more AD on my gwf than my CW, Cant a person play 2 classes and enjoy them both?
sure i have a very intensive guide for CW, but i also made a sentinel guide Grimah-s-PvE-Sentinel-build
Just because you own one class doesnt make your opinion more valid, especially when you have no hands on experienced with other classes.
and also the featured satirical comedic adventure "A Call for Heroes".
I know I'm giving an example of an epic dungeon you can do with greens, but my contention is that the same principle (that knowing a fight causes you to avoid a lot of nasty things) applies for all dungeons, no matter if they are T1 or T2.
So with all due respect, I consider that your argument about how awesome GWFs are at reviving fallen party members is silly.
Also, how many mobs have nasty AoEs and Cleaves? I'm not being sarcastic here, I'm asking with genuine curiosity. And we're not talking about trash throughout the dungeon here, are we? Sure, you'll interrupt the cleavers at, say, Spider boss... for 1 second. What do you do for the next 7.6 seconds?
so you can make a 2 guides and have time for that but cant make a screenshot to prove a point?it takes just 2 min to post screenshot. your guides took days man.that sent build of yours cant top nothing in dungeon and still sucks in pvp.so you made a destroyer which you claim to :
"STILL topping damage over 12k+ GS TRs/CWs with Greater enchants"
" I said ANY T2, including CN, and even CN speed run,"
you top all dungeons but not one screenshoot lol. but even so its complete and utter failure at pvp not even good enough for pugs.so all you do is failure but still saying that gwf is viable pvp,pve and all should learn to play lololol.
You aren't the brightest bulb are you?
Trade of blades is a good place to test things out. How about you test baseline numbers about AP generation before you spout your BS. How about you time your encounter rotations to see how long it takes. How about you ask other classes how long it takes them to generate a full bar from empty using nothing but encounters?
So...an AOE class has AP generation removed. Classic.
Your being lazy , cutting slams power and adding "utility". Why is it only one paragon is favored for pve?Why is it when i use daring shout with 5000 power i still can't pull aggro?.Why is it ?Cryptic u need to take a break from trying to snipe peoples pockets and fix your core game/class mechanics.I don't care how many more races/ classes you release. I want to know why haven't you fixed my class my paragon.The one i have been spending time and money on.Is it that u don't value my money. ONE WORD BETHESDA.....
Oh I probably spent more time on training dummies than you have spent on these forums lol.
I have 3/5 Unstoppable Action and a Destroyer. If I remember correctly, you said once before that you were an Instigator, and maybe that's part of the reason you are having issues. That said. I generate 100% AP anywhere between 13sec and 36seconds, and that includes Single Target.
I dont need to ask other Classes anything. Unlike you, I like to get my information first hand. On my CW, I get a full AP bar in an average of 24seconds. Can a CW fill his AP bar faster? Sure, by slotting EF on tab. I don't because to me it is a HUGE dps loss and pointless. In fact, generating AP at a slower rate not only allows me to do insane damage, but also allows my CW to provide more CC. Singularity bots, is a failed concept.
Again, I have no freaking idea why you are so hung up on dailies. It is not like we have a daily that does 50k AoE damage that you can use to maintain aggro on mobs.
So your argument against everything I said, is that I am constantly running with morons who dont know their class and dont know their dungeons; practically a bunch of idiots standing there not doing much. Yet we are clearing all T2s and farming CN. You know what they say about ASSumptions? and you're calling my argument silly?
How many mobs have AoEs and Cleaves? are you serious? Of course since you can run Malabog with nothing but greens, then everything I am referring to is trivial to you. Also it seems you dont have much practice with Roar, it is not just an interrupt but a daze as well. So it is not just 1 second, but more like 2-3sec that you are disabling a group of mobs, in a 8.6. That's almost half the cooldown of a CW's Steal Time.
I don't want agro. and yes I have spiked well over 100k with avalanche. After all it has no target cap.
Not knocking you but I have 5/5 AP gain during unstoppable. I don't get hit much. Therefore no determination, ergo no AP.
Also my capstone says if I get hit I lose my capstone.