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GWF Have nothing now.... So what do we need?
farfig1337
Member Posts: 108 Bounty Hunter
Now GWF are as squishy as TR's with Half the single target DPS, No immunities or escapes.
... But we have Aoe....
Since the Nerf the GWFS best moves for Encounters and Dailies are all single target.
I have used alot of the New spinning strike and found that mobs can break it even if you are CC Immune. I have used Crescendo after the path and had a Cyclops shaman CC me during the casting time (With a move that felt like TR smoke bomb). I have used alot of the new slam and noticed nothing from the Damage mitigation compared to using Spinning Strike.
Sad to say Spinning strike is the better move because slam cannot crit. But I wont use either. I keep Avalanche of Steel as my 2nd daily to use only when I need an Escape and an extra 4 second cooldown on my potions. GWF are once again the Great Potion Drinks Of the past.
Crescendo is the only Daily worth using. It's sad because it is only like a Battle strike but takes longer with a knock down. And you can still be broken out of it.
The only thing a GWF has that no other class has is WeaponMasters Strike/Wicked Strike. A consistent at-will that does Aoe Damage. And no players say lets Invite GWFs to spam at wills Yay!
So now that GWF has nothing, What do we need? What would make us the most viable in PvE?
Being very tough did not do it. It made us good in PvP but nothing else. With that gone what should we ask for as GWF's that may one day wish to be useful, and wanted by other players.
If GWF's had single target damage comparable to TR's would we be valuable? ALot of players have suggested this in the past. But I dont see this giving us a role in the group. TR's will always be better single target DPS and they are the better runners with stealth and invulnerability moves. GWF without there unstoppable and deflection just are not tough enough to make runs anymore. Even if using Daring shout to get Defense boosts to run.
Do GWf's need there defense back and Threat so they can play the role of a proper tank? GF's still get block and Push/Control powers that are superior to what the GWF gets. But GWF's have better Aoe at wills and being more mobile the can pick up adds faster than a GF. IF GWf had the threat to tank and there defense back I could see them being every bit as eqaul to a GF for any group. The sad thing is, Is that Tanks are already not high on any ones need to have list.
Do GWF's need control powers? Daily powers that can gather up mobs like Arcane Singularity. Group Knockdowns that dont require them to leap in the are for 6 seconds before it activates (And Yes I've tried the new slams "Interupt" it's garbage I never even noticed it's effect, I completely forgot about for 3 dungeons I used it in as I watched it's sad sad damage).
Do GWF need group buffs like increasing all parties damage, or defense. TR increase the entire groups crit. CW increase everyone stats by 3%. DC Heal and GF have great party defense buffs. GWF has nothing like that.
Do GWFs need some healing like granting the entire party Lifesteal on all attacks. Or giving them all regen some sort of battle vigor type of move that invigorates your allies.
Or do GWF need more Aoe Damage. simply breaking there 5 target hit caps on all moves, allowing them to beat out everyone in Damage dealt in dungeons just for being GWF's. (And for you players that think GWF's already do that, check the gear score of the next GWF you think is doing good. He is probably 2k GS higher than you like most of the GWF that still bother to play.
... But we have Aoe....
Since the Nerf the GWFS best moves for Encounters and Dailies are all single target.
I have used alot of the New spinning strike and found that mobs can break it even if you are CC Immune. I have used Crescendo after the path and had a Cyclops shaman CC me during the casting time (With a move that felt like TR smoke bomb). I have used alot of the new slam and noticed nothing from the Damage mitigation compared to using Spinning Strike.
Sad to say Spinning strike is the better move because slam cannot crit. But I wont use either. I keep Avalanche of Steel as my 2nd daily to use only when I need an Escape and an extra 4 second cooldown on my potions. GWF are once again the Great Potion Drinks Of the past.
Crescendo is the only Daily worth using. It's sad because it is only like a Battle strike but takes longer with a knock down. And you can still be broken out of it.
The only thing a GWF has that no other class has is WeaponMasters Strike/Wicked Strike. A consistent at-will that does Aoe Damage. And no players say lets Invite GWFs to spam at wills Yay!
So now that GWF has nothing, What do we need? What would make us the most viable in PvE?
Being very tough did not do it. It made us good in PvP but nothing else. With that gone what should we ask for as GWF's that may one day wish to be useful, and wanted by other players.
If GWF's had single target damage comparable to TR's would we be valuable? ALot of players have suggested this in the past. But I dont see this giving us a role in the group. TR's will always be better single target DPS and they are the better runners with stealth and invulnerability moves. GWF without there unstoppable and deflection just are not tough enough to make runs anymore. Even if using Daring shout to get Defense boosts to run.
Do GWf's need there defense back and Threat so they can play the role of a proper tank? GF's still get block and Push/Control powers that are superior to what the GWF gets. But GWF's have better Aoe at wills and being more mobile the can pick up adds faster than a GF. IF GWf had the threat to tank and there defense back I could see them being every bit as eqaul to a GF for any group. The sad thing is, Is that Tanks are already not high on any ones need to have list.
Do GWF's need control powers? Daily powers that can gather up mobs like Arcane Singularity. Group Knockdowns that dont require them to leap in the are for 6 seconds before it activates (And Yes I've tried the new slams "Interupt" it's garbage I never even noticed it's effect, I completely forgot about for 3 dungeons I used it in as I watched it's sad sad damage).
Do GWF need group buffs like increasing all parties damage, or defense. TR increase the entire groups crit. CW increase everyone stats by 3%. DC Heal and GF have great party defense buffs. GWF has nothing like that.
Do GWFs need some healing like granting the entire party Lifesteal on all attacks. Or giving them all regen some sort of battle vigor type of move that invigorates your allies.
Or do GWF need more Aoe Damage. simply breaking there 5 target hit caps on all moves, allowing them to beat out everyone in Damage dealt in dungeons just for being GWF's. (And for you players that think GWF's already do that, check the gear score of the next GWF you think is doing good. He is probably 2k GS higher than you like most of the GWF that still bother to play.
Post edited by farfig1337 on
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I mean cw and tr were always the better assets to a group, nothing really has changed.
Also i like them in Malabogs Castle, very useful, they can take some hits and rez people if neccessary.
What they need is thier utility skills buffed
-Not So Fast -increased damage and radius)
-Mighty Leap - Longer immunity during animation jumping
-Come and Get It - Increased radius, damage buff longer
-Punishing Charge- Increased range and/or damage
-Daring Shout- Increased cone range and damage resistance
-Restoring Strike- Having a slight heal increase. (the heal is very low for an encounter ability, a GF Crushing surge heals just as much and it is an At-Will )
-Slam- The damage it gives can stay the same, but its duration needs to be the same as it was before, if not a second or two longer. Not shorter.
-Reaping Strike- damage boost and increased determination gain while charging. (the damage can remain split between multiple targets as it is currently as long as the hit cap is removed), An alternative to the previous, the full power charge of this move could provide knock back instead with twice the distance Shout gives.
General things:
-Hit caps removed-
-Unstoppable reverted exactly like it was before pre-feywild patch- (minus the occasional bug that permenantly prevents its use until log out or zone change)
-Steel Blitz- chance rate increased-
-Powerful Challenge- Marked targets no longer dissappear when damaged, but dissappear after a set amount of time, but do not stack with new marks until old ones time has run out.
These are more going to in the right direction with GWF. Changes like these widens and encourages differing playstyles without inhibiting the class as a whole. Changes like the ones I stated above will put the GWF into as close as the vision stated in the first post the closest it will every be.
Totally opposite of the changes implemented in the Feywild patch.
And the hit-cap is just silly. We're aoe specialists who stop doing damage when there is too much aoe?
But I'm really worried the devs will pull out their old trick, change the descriptions and call the new bugs a 'feauture'.
'Quit play this suck game if nothing change ASAP'
Nah, doesnt need. It needs to stop at target and do burst type damage with high threat.
Ok yes, there are some issues. We were promised Unstoppable fixed and it wasn't. Our Slam damage got nerfed and in turn lowered our dps (slightly). Sure some of our Powers/Dailies/Feats could use some adjustments or tweaks. But come on! It's like practically everyone is on the bandwagon of GWF being a dead class, which is far from the truth.
I am running a Destroyer with less than 12k GS, 1500 LifeSteal, Slotting combination of Roar/Daring Shout/Mighty leap/IBS, SOLO tanking any T2, including Malabog's Castle, STILL topping damage over 12k+ GS TRs/CWs with Greater enchants (over 2mil ahead in Malabog's Castle thanks to no opportunity for CW punting). As much as I would love ANY buff to the class, many if not all of these issues are greatly exaggerated.
We can 100% tank, not OFF-Tank. In fact in many cases better than GFs. We can generate aggro by means of dps. And we can certainly AoE. We may not have the CW burst AoE, but we can definitely pump out similar damage from WMS spam.
I totally understand the "intentions" of all this hysteria. I think many people feel the more we exaggerate the better our chances of getting some buff. And I do agree with some of the issues to some degree, but these reactions are way over the top IMHO.
so you can do one map nice(with no proof)....whole point of the game is to get the best weapons, enchants possible to play pvp (especcialy for gwf they are fighters you know).now tell me a person whos not gonna try to pvp with best enchants even if he dont likes pvp.your build sucks to say atleast for pvp and for pve is mediocre compared to other top classes...you have nothing on cw not even close and malabog is just one map what about cn lol and other maps.i dont know any guild that preffer you over g vorpal cw.but we have different standards gwf that dont pvp...meh
Running ahead of all others popping powers-daylies so you can increase you dps dont make you good dps just fast in facing mobs before others.
Fact is that if you do more dps then GS TR and CW:s they dont know how to play their classes. As it now stands with GWF class you cant compare you dps with those classes just becouse of core class mechanics. The changes makes it impossible to get unstoppeble and daylies up as fast as other classes and much slower then before = loss of alot of dps.
Broken unstoppeble means you have to avoid alot of more damage which means you cant be in combat as long as before which means loss of damage.
If you manage to outdamage your groups in t2 with lesser gear then the other dps classes you are alone in doing so and guess what it might have to with your team or your way of running ahead(which is the only chanse for you to have greater dps).
In short your statement is either false or very naive.
GWF need a fix for several reasons and your post is just offencive to those knowing this.
1. I'd like to see Sprint removed from the game completely and replaced with Punishing Charge by default. As it is now, Sprint only offers mobility and allegedly ignores slow effects. But when it comes to avoiding red spots/AoE, you really need to have fast fingers - not only react in time, moving out, but also letting go of the button in time, as otherwise you still get hit by the AoE even if standing outside of the circle. Much greater lee-way is given to TR, CW and DC when it comes to their escape mechanics. Nothing can hit me on my DC, as opposed to my GWF, when I don't have Punishing Charge slotted.
In place of Punishing Charge, we could use having a new Encounter (WIP name: 'Roundhouse Kick') that is all about dealing AoE damage.
2. Reaping Strike needs to have a Block kind of mechanic built into it, whether by a feat (with Executioner's Style tweaked, as nobody in their right mind feats it right now) or by default, that makes the GWF more durable while charging it and less likely to get interrupted. Another way to improve this at-will is to have a feat that adds a random proc, or synergize it with other at-wills (akin to TR's Master Duelist 4-piece set bonus), to make it instant cast from time to time.
3. Speaking of synergy, I'd like to have more of it. An idea that I'm having, that I think would be very cool, could be Features augmenting some Encounter powers in addition to their current bonuses, which would allow GWFs to "toggle" between party defender and AoE damage dealer, based on skill set-up.
For example, Bravery is a common Feature to slot when wanting to be more tanky - it could augment Daring Shout to also weaken mob damage output + force them to attack you. Destroyer, currently severely underutilized, could, when slotted, remove the target cap and/or damage penalties for striking multiple targets with At-wills and Encounters. Steel Blitz could halve Battle Fury's cooldown and make its buff (+15% damage and +30% AP gain) party-wide.
There is an easy way for developers to weasel out of any sophisticated calculations and make GWF desirable for all parties, no matter how broken the class is currently, with a simple passive of the following sort:
"Thorough Dungeoneer [Passive]: Increases the chance of bosses in Epic Dungeons to drop loot of Epic quality."
Nope, defenetly not this one - GFs got same passive and they already are more desired for MC last boss.
If the nerf was to tone down Sent PvP this was implemented very wrong. Really sucks that all other specs lost a big chunk of their survivability because of it. The only thing I notice is my unstoppable is very short, I can see where this would really suck for dps GWF, But it doesn't really inhibit sent that much to be honest. Very poor implementation here as GWF was already unwanted in PvE.
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
Yep. I played against two Sents last night, very little change. They're still ridiculous to kill, though I found against a tough one we could do it with two players, but we're generally well stacked in terms of enchants. Destroyer and Instigator are basically worthless now. I barely feel like playing, which is a shame, I've put a lot of time in this game, thankfully not money. Their process of doing this kind of **** is what made me quit D3. It's like they don't even play it themselves.
2. decrease weapon master's strike damage but add additional effect such as 15% chance to make enemy paralyzed, and take off the cap limit.
3. add additional effect in to sure strike. "at last cycle(powerful downward slam) gives 50% chance to knockdown target"
4. increase the range and buff time for come and get it.
5. increase cap of punishing charge charges to 5.
6. decrease the cooldown of battle fury and increase its buff effect.
7. change flourish animation and make something that doesn't take too much time like now.
8. CC immunity when activating unstoppable
9. increase roar range and damage slightly.
10. decrease daring shout cooldown and increase its cap to 10 enemies.
11. instigator: remove "goes away when you are struck" in instigator's vengeance but decrease its time to 5seconds.
12. destroyer: increase all damage by 20% every time use unstoppable for destroyer's purpose.
13. sentinel: increase restoring strike heal to 100% over 6 second.
14. reaping strike: decrease its charging time, increase its damage alot and it gives 360 degree of attack for a large range area.
Did a T1 dungeon to get those rusty fingers going.
Now, this isn't premade (just good old annoying Queue system selected team)..
We have 2 cw, 2tr's and a (jup you guessed it.. Gwf)..
now, we do the dungeon pretty easy, and nothing wrong there..
we get to the end boss, and after utter failure o.0 our great looking almost 13k gs gwf dies, *I guess we wern't really prepared for that* all had been pretty easy going, we got utterly whiped!! *I lol'ed*
'the gwf was utterly silent the whole time'
*we just laughed and went at it again, since it felt silly failing on a T1*
The gwf get's downed again?!!?! 'so fast!! but one of our tr was nice to revive him'..
and withinn a few seconds, down he goes again!?....*he logged out without saying a word*
I was like 'silently'... (I feel your pain bro...)
we finished the boss, (didnt really notice the change after he was gone really...) *basicly found out what really caused the whipe. when reviving we were careless and got others taken down in the process. *I know, rather bad play on our part but it happens*
we just expected to have more tanki'ness / survivabillity from our gwf than he had. a 12.9k Gs gwf shouldn't have this much issue in a T1 dungeon..
*someone earlier was trying to get ppl to tell their (positive experience doing dungeons) .. well, I had fun, and I'm a gwf player(Non Sentinel), but I'm not playing it while its so utterly broken.
He is still great to play .. vs 5 tiny mobs that stay still.
while the Tr is dealing that dmg on a single large target, the Gwf is dealing that dmg on multible targets.
while the targets arn't being pushed/scattered/thrown etc..
now a quick example:
1 swing. deals maybe say 650 on avg (non crit) on 5 mobs (you are actually fighting 15, but hey, that doesnt count does it).
that's 650 x 5 = 3250 dmg. (this only dent's them a little.) you keep swinging maybe 10 times . then the other players will focus on your mob group. and kill them in matter of seconds.. o.0
now those 10 swings did 32500 dmg.. (you actually didnt manage to kill a single mob .. but collective dmg was pretty hig right
while any other class (except maybe cleric) will out dps you in terms of killing a single target.
now, the rouge did like 50k dmg on a single target, and then came over to help you kill those mobs..
not to mention the cw, will out dps you on single and aoe even when he's not really trying.
1 way to get to be that high score dmg player (rush ahead and get in as many hig dps aoe's as possible before the other players come and remove all the mobs and really show how un'usefull you are lol)
(ps. im not even bothering to find the correct numbers, but any gwf knows the drill, that plays more than 1 class)
I think this sais it all.
1 mob on screen...you generate poor AP.
5 mobs on screen you generate massive AP to use a daily.
With all due respect, complete and utter nonsense. When I, as a GWF, have more kills than a TR, then it is working as intended. When I am taking 2-3x more damage than a TR+CW combined, then it is working as intended. When the TR falls in the acid at Spellplague at 60% of the boss, and a GWF solo kills the boss and deal with adds around him, then it is working as intended.
You guys spend WAY too much time complaining on this forum and actually little time playing the class?
You want proof? Go play your GWF and adapt. Why waste my time to stream videos and post screenshots? I am not bragging, and it is not that I can do things other cant. You want proof? You are more than welcome to get on Dragon and invite me to run ANY T2.
Did I say just ONE map? Did you actually read my post? I said ANY T2, including CN, and even CN speed run, and even CN speed run without a TR stealthing.
The whole point of the game is to get gear to PvP? umm I am willing to bet that maybe 80% of the playerbase do NOT share that opinion, and I am being very generous.
My build sucks? You are actually able to see my build without me linking it? Amazing. But if you are referring to Destroyer tree in general, then more proof that you do not know anything about the class.
In poll I voted for last option just for the hell of it.
YOU SUCK IN PVP is all that matters to me no way around it.i dont care about pve.post your so called viable pve,pvp build which comes remotly close to mine in pvp than we can talk coz destoyer can be played in pvp but is then usseles in pve.your build is joke which i can beat 2,3 in a row no potions.y in the end i want to see your pvp beast and pve beast on the paper lol.
I know this is hard for you to comprehend but the game is mostly PvE, that PvP in this game is trivial and simply and afterthought, that the VAST majority of the player base PvE 10x more than PvP, that you are making yourself look like a 7year old waving a nerf gun as if no one else has one. There is not SECRET build. If you can't look at the Destroyer tree and see how viable it is in both PvP and specifically PvE, then no wonder you're QQing on this forum like a baby who doesn't know how to put back the pacifier in his mouth.
And as for the poll I think GWF needs a large bag of zen to compensate for his terrible nerf
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
hahahaha good one then why farm like crazy do exploits.why are all nerfs revolving abouth pvp then? this game like any other is a ego boost game and 99% pvp game. you are just afraid to roll with the big boys and keep your distance as a pve gwf.and there is no such thing.and again destroyer cant be viable for pve,pve in the same build not by a long shot.
Maybe some of us are secure in the knowledge that we don't need acceptance of others and therefore don't need to play pvp for a boost in self confidence.