Where Did, "The Feedback," Come From?

freedumb4eva · August 2013

Cryptic said that the changes which made a lot of loot Bind on Pickup were due to feedback. I'm just wondering where that feedback cake from. I don't recall any players asking for this change. It's not a big deal just curious.

I happen to prefer the way that loot worked prior to this change. How do others feel?

ambisinisterr · August 2013

The feedback tends to get buried after a while, especially after the update goes into effect and everybody who didn't want the change spams the heck out of the forums, but there have been plenty of calls for BoP rewards especially when the game initially launched.

Same thing happened with the rogue nerf. The forums were flooded with cries to nerf perma-stealth for many weeks. As soon as the changes were announced several dozen threads pushed the feedback which bolstered the change pages back in the forums.

However players with a bit of foresight could see the horrible implications of the frequent gear drops from a mile away. It's been requested since day one by those who care about the game in the long term.

freedumb4eva · August 2013

ambisinisterr wrote: »

The feedback tends to get buried after a while, especially after the update goes into effect and everybody who didn't want the change spams the heck out of the forums, but there have been plenty of calls for BoP rewards especially when the game initially launched.

Same thing happened with the rogue nerf. The forums were flooded with cries to nerf perma-stealth for many weeks. As soon as the changes were announced several dozen threads pushed the feedback which bolstered the change pages back in the forums.

However players with a bit of foresight could see the horrible implications of the frequent gear drops from a mile away. It's been requested since day one by those who care about the game in the long term.

Can you link me to a thread because I can't seem to find one?

pandapaul · August 2013

Lets be honest they say they listen to feedback but 99% of the time.. They don't

Look at the GWF class.. All the forum feedback asking them to rethink the nerfs and that they huge list of GWF bugs destroying the class need attention ASAP..

They still progress with the massive nerf.. Killing the class
They don't fix the bugs.. Some we have Been complaining about for months now

Result: only a few end game GWF remain active

They don't really listen

dardove · August 2013

As far as class balance, they seem to listen to PvP feedback the most. I know when the TR nerfs hits the preview server, there was a complaints about GWFs in PvP.

freedumb4eva · August 2013

This change has removed my incentive to run any dungeons. So, where did that feedback come from?

kouroumbelo · August 2013

ambisinisterr wrote: »

The feedback tends to get buried after a while, especially after the update goes into effect and everybody who didn't want the change spams the heck out of the forums, but there have been plenty of calls for BoP rewards especially when the game initially launched.

Same thing happened with the rogue nerf. The forums were flooded with cries to nerf perma-stealth for many weeks. As soon as the changes were announced several dozen threads pushed the feedback which bolstered the change pages back in the forums.

However players with a bit of foresight could see the horrible implications of the frequent gear drops from a mile away. It's been requested since day one by those who care about the game in the long term.

But why drake seals bound too?
T1 pvp gear bound too?
t2 GG items bound too?

Was there so much complain and feedback about them being bound too?

Also about DD box being bop and AH flooded with epics,there were quite a few threads about raid exploits and speed runs that would mb fix the overflow of items caused by DD Box,why werent they fixed and instead u made everything bound except boss drops?

I do not see if it was only possible mb do 1 raid during DD without bugs/exploits etc hurt the economy so bad,unless the raids stay like this forever and no new items that are better than previous are implemented ...

conchitobanano · August 2013

The feedback came mostly from their pockets....they do not care at all for their playerbase and they hide behind their mode.....erhrmmm.... their pawns.. to justify their actions...

ordensmarschall · August 2013

freedumb4eva wrote: »

Can you link me to a thread because I can't seem to find one?

http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?284192-SUGGESTION-Until-live-use-BoP
Just one of the many threads that requested BoP on loot. Both because of Ninja looters and because of the long term impact on the game.

ambisinisterr · August 2013

Numerous threads discussed the need for Bind on Pickup gear in positive light.

Example One
Example Two
Example Three
Example Four

Of course it was never a one sided argument and there were people on both sides of the argument expressing views. These aren't even the main ones I remember but many, many people were quite upset at the lack of BoP.

You'll also notice how people even said they didn't care in those threads about the fact it was BoE just because the prices were still in the millions for every T2 but now that we look back the prices have dropped to the point that except for a couple of sets every T2 is 100-200K and dropping.

And those were the big threads about the issue which I haven't been able to find. There was plenty of feedback threads involving the DD Chest which expressed the ill effects it had on the in game economy.

And through it all players also want a lot of things which aren't good for the game. If you ran a poll asking if cheat codes should be added into the game players would.
Look at the Foundry Exploits which ravaged the Foundry for a few days back in May because the developers wanted to make the Foundry as rewarding as possible. The players who exploited the system ignorantly said that 'Others and I don't want to level and they gave us this tool to do things we like so I should be able to use this as an easy XP farm!' That type of action is horrible for the rest of the game...

Point is, not everything players want is best for the game. If you step away from what you want and start questioning what a BoE chest would do...
You might realize all it does is cause drop values to decrease because the drops were too common and it flooded the market.

Look at the prices now. Look at how many items are on the market now. When I last checked on Mindlfayer numerous sets didn't even have helmets (one of the most expensive items) available to purchase. Every T2 Set Piece seems to have increased just within a few days. They will of course find their new home soon enough but the economy is looking much healthier IMO and that is the most important thing.

ambisinisterr · August 2013

kouroumbelo wrote: »

But why drake seals bound too?
T1 pvp gear bound too?
t2 GG items bound too?

Was there so much complain and feedback about them being bound too?

Actually those were noted extremely early on and often without much debate. However, of course, players have also consistently asked for them to be much stronger even if it meant more grinding.
I already posted this link but this one specifically was started because of the seals being BoE. People were amazed that seal gear was able to be traded and were quite upset about that.

PvP constantly had people request items to be BoP as well. Basically day one and it has always been brought up whenever the PvP Bots are discussed.

Although, as one person pointed out, due to the salvager it did some-what miss the mark in that department. We'll see what the future holds there. *shrug*

kouroumbelo · August 2013

so in a game with ''million'' of players not having on AH a full set show healthy economy?

or that people no bother raid?

wait abit and prices will again become same almost~.lol

ro7shadow · August 2013

You should focus on balancing economy and exploits, dungeons and loot, bind on pick up / equip won't solve a thing itself neither will help economy to run, it will simply ruin trading and this system is bad, bind on equip is whats makes economy worse at first place because no one even equip or use items since they are usless afterwards, bind on pickup is even worse. Obviously when you can't trade 99% of the drop the price will go up but what this solve really? The problem is there are only dungeons in this game for end game, obviously such small amount of content need to meet it's end somwhere. Still no challenging content for single player lack of random loot, this will never work out. If 90% of people just run this dunegoens all over and over again the price goes down, if you make everything bind on pickup this people will simply stop playing this because it's even more unrewarding than before.

ambisinisterr · August 2013

The shortcuts are absolutely being worked on and Cryptic agrees is a major source of the problem as well!

The BoP changes are simply an additional change due to the extremely large volume of gear which would have been gained even if the players were not taking advantage of any terrain issues.

ro7shadow · August 2013

Same goes for seals it exactly describe the problem of the economy in this game, only one activity farming dungeons = price goes down. this is because for majority of the people there is nothing else to do in game than making some wealth or collecting gear. And the buyers probably are guys that spend some money on zen and exchanged their zen to AD to buy gear. Adding some hard and solo friendly end game content like challenging dungeons with chance of random loot and new better loot is the only way to go really.

kouroumbelo · August 2013

ambisinisterr wrote: »

The shortcuts are absolutely being worked on and Cryptic agrees is a major source of the problem as well!

The BoP changes are simply an additional change due to the extremely large volume of gear which would have been gained even if the players were not taking advantage of any terrain issues.

Well fixing these would be nice,(and tbh would be more than enuf to cut down the large volume of purples).

i forgot ask you sth about ur last post tho,about pvp that means cryptic thinking making pvp gear not salvagable?><

Also isnt it kinda unfair because ppl used bots to make stuff BOP?

PVP is content of game too,and now with changes u make so less compared to before ;/

And seems everything in new content is BOP as well i think.(why?most items there are worse than previous ones,after ppl get boons why bother play this update?)

i predict a ''bound on aquire trade xeon'' for few zen?? in many other f2p games happened same ^^.

tang56 · August 2013

I don't really think having a very limited(as in one or two) number of T2 set pieces available to buy on the AH for upwards of 400k to 2.5million means the economy is healthy. It just means that freshly leveled people will have a worse time in T2 dungeons and the queues and pug frustration will be worse than ever.

The way I see it, drake an unicorn seal gear should be more useful, i.e. they should be weaker than their dungeon counterparts but should also still have a 2/2 set bonus(maybe +275 for T1 and +325 for T2) and a watered down 4/4 bonus. As it is, the seal items are pretty much useless.

I'd also like to see some stuff(maybe just T1 and accessories) being account bound(with a method of transferring between characters) so that grinding an alt up the gearing chain will be slightly less of a strain.

ambisinisterr · August 2013

It's not fair that Rule Breakers took an awesome foundry reward system and got it destroyed either.

Rule breakers ruin the game for everybody.

However I have no information on what the future holds for PvP. I simply know that making items BoP while the salvager exists will not prevent bots from benefiting from PvP and future changes might be warranted in my opinion. The key is, though, that Cryptic has to look into rewarding PvPers without also rewarding bots and that's not going to be a simple proposition.

fallenhawk · August 2013

The "feedback" came from same people who ***** about the need system and whine about how they think it wrong to skip trash monster just because they thinking is the only right way . If you do anything that not their ****ing way you and anyone who does try a different way get call a ****ing *** cheater/hacker/expositor . I could go on about this kind of people but I won't.

manathayria · August 2013

The request for BoP loot was done early on in dungeons (as far as need/greed items - not the chest items - your loot=your loot).

I personally made a request for a bind on need system when talking on the twitter feeds - item greeded, no bind, item needed, binds to person needing it. The reasoning behind this was early on you saw people running the dungeons, needing everything that dropped (including things they couldn't use) to sell on the AH.

End dungeon/quest chain rewards that are BTA? Sure.

Account unlocks through feats/meta feats and ongoing events - hell yes. I was actually disappointed that the loot boxes didnt drop a mount that became BTA rather than BTC given how rare it is.
***even doing like a 'mini' system would have been interesting with the rare mount/pets from boxes - have a rare mount/pet from a box that you bound to character? Get a mini non-combat pet for the account that all your characters can summon (only one summoned at a time, pets are non-combat and can be summoned/dismissed - will not take up inventory slots) <<-Not in, would be interesting though, and more free advertising for PWE on how many people have gotten the companions/mounts.

Dungeon drops that are BTA to be rolled on - people will roll need an item because they *might* at some point in the future, possibly level the class that uses it (even against the guy standing right next to them helping in the dungeon right then.

Terrain glitches are not the thing that concerned me - I'll let people play how they want. If you can stealth past a group of mobs, fine - PNP allowed for it if you had enough stealth, so I personally don't care much if you do it here.

The thing I took exception to when I ran dungeons (the loot system pre-bop drove me to idle and now I need to craft to get my gear on par for lvls) was that you'd run with someone, they'd need your class gear - which they could not use as they were the wrong class, then turn around and sell it on AH. Need = I will use it. Greed = I will sell it. Only binding something that was 'needed' would probably have been simpler and left people farming the content more. It in theory would have required adding a line to the code equating need to binding it like it is being equipped after the roll is won.

ambisinisterr · August 2013

Tranglec, people weren't doing dungeons outside of DD anyway.

I have been a bit busy and really only looking to do a few things, mainly new content, for the last few days but I expect the dungeons will become far less reliant on DD now. And the fewer people who go into dungeons the less drops there will be and the higher the prices will go.
Eventually the prices will get to the point you'll do them and feel rewarded. It's just a matter of time for the economy to stabilize.

Fallenhawk, those people are the ones who had the most to lose with this update, not the least. All in all this will hurt those people and reward the more casual player who has the time to go out and do dungeons.

fallenhawk · August 2013

Let me make it more simple for you guys.

I DON"T want BOP/BOA, I want BOE . I want to be able run/skip part of a dungeon if like trash monster . I don't want play your "look at roses and smell then too". It not my way it's the "table top Rper guys who can't agree on what rules are real kind of play". I want get in and out as fast I can to sell my loot or use it even if it my first time.

tidalwave082 · August 2013

Personally I like the way SWTOR handles this sort of thing. Basically they had it set up where when you rolled for something same as here, but it was bound to you, but for the duration of the Flash Point you COULD trade it when the OTHER members of that Flash Point if someone really needed it and you were just gonna sell it and wanted to trade it. And if you needed on something you couldn't use you could fix that by trading it to the person who truly needed it. As for people only caring about themselves and needing on everything to trade and not letting others get rewards, well that's what the Kick Player vote is for. Everyone had to vote on that, it wasn't just one persons choice.

ambisinisterr · August 2013

tidalwave082,

These changes only effect the Dungeon Delve Chest. Anything which comes out of the Dungeon Delve Chest is BoP but is guaranteed to be usable by you and you may also select between three different items. All boss drops have remained BoE.

fallenhawk · August 2013

tidalwave082 wrote: »

Personally I like the way SWTOR handles this sort of thing. Basically they had it set up where when you rolled for something same as here, but it was bound to you, but for the duration of the Flash Point you COULD trade it when the OTHER members of that Flash Point if someone really needed it and you were just gonna sell it and wanted to trade it. And if you needed on something you couldn't use you could fix that by trading it to the person who truly needed it. As for people only caring about themselves and needing on everything to trade and not letting others get rewards, well that's what the Kick Player vote is for. Everyone had to vote on that, it wasn't just one persons choice.

Yeah could a FTPer trade in that way nope. Now if they have change it I don't know as I haven't play it in longtime to mush restrictions on us FTP players.

Now back on topic I'm not mush of greedy person but I'll just won't give away stuff I have unless I can get something I need in return.

th0rfinn · August 2013

ambisinisterr wrote: »

tidalwave082,

These changes only effect the Dungeon Delve Chest. Anything which comes out of the Dungeon Delve Chest is BoP but is guaranteed to be usable by you and you may also select between three different items. All boss drops have remained BoE.

And whats the point of having BOE items drop from boss which is already lower than the chances of getting it from the chest? How do you suggest ppl to upgrade their Blue companions to purple that cost 750k AD? Converting 24k AD a day?

fallenhawk · August 2013

th0rfinn wrote: »

And whats the point of having BOE items drop from boss which is already lower than the chances of getting it from the chest? How do you suggest ppl to upgrade their Blue companions to purple that cost 750k AD? Converting 24k AD a day?

This it the price of upgrading that has lot of people in HAMSTER off mood . Yeah I bet there something around this but it just be a bigger pain in the *** to do it.

parp12 · August 2013

freedumb4eva wrote: »

Can you link me to a thread because I can't seem to find one?

As I said the last time this was asked, when you're looking at feedback you do not keep a list of links to provide evidence that you listen to feedback. If you want someone to do searches why not do it yourself? It's you that wants to see and it's just as easy for you. Well I don't mind doing it for you.

http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?131451-Question-for-dev-Top-tier-gear-BoE-or-BoP - it's really clear but I believe the OP is stating that he will not play the game if dungeon drops are not BoP.

http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?173661-Dungeon-boss-drops-not-BoP - this one is clear, he thinks it's lame that they're not BoP.

http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?351672-BoP - the OP in this thread is complaining that they were considering making drops BoP, but tellingly post 4 remembers lots of people wanted BoP.

http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?217141-BoP-end-game-loot - another thread which says there's a lot of complaints that drops are BoP and asks for future contents to be BoP.

http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?130781-Top-tier-gear-BoE-or-BoP - says if gear is BoE the game is ruined.

http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?238201-I-believe-top-tier-gear-should-be-BoP-any-thoughts - I think the name of the thread is enough.

http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?183542-Whats-the-point-of-boss-Epic-loot-being-BoE - thinks it's disgusting that drops are BoE

http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?307071-ilvl-Gearscore-T1-vs-T2 - says that gear should be BoP so that people can't just buy their gear without knowing how to play their class.

http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?262262-The-real-problem-with-the-economy - wants BoP because of exploiters ruining the economy.

http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?236512-The-game-economy-is-completely-and-utterly-broken - simalar to previous one about economy and needs BoP.

http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?352942-BoP-will-bring-me-back-to-Neverwinter - name of thread speaks for itself

http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?318142-So-the-best-Gears-can-be-bought-in-the-AH - says the best gear should be BoP.

http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?246221-Fixing-the-game-from-a-PvE-players-point-of-view - Make all 60 epic gear BoP (this was before need option for class was added, which introduced the concept of greed needing).

http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?350401-Feedback-Game-review-One-week-before-the-release - says that BoP is a good thing.

http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?219341-List-Your-PVP-Improvements-Constructive-Please - says pvp gear should be BoP (yes it only refers to pvp but it's on a pvp thread (and non pvp gear is best for pvp))

I'm sure there's plenty more. Anyway I think the point here is that people don't like change, many are used to BOE now and don't want this to change simply because they're used to it. That probably includes people who asked for BoP before open beta or before live. At least with people that stated what they want beforehand it wasn't influenced the natural human aversion to change.

ambisinisterr · August 2013

th0rfinn wrote: »

And whats the point of having BOE items drop from boss which is already lower than the chances of getting it from the chest? How do you suggest ppl to upgrade their Blue companions to purple that cost 750k AD? Converting 24k AD a day?

Where do you expect the AD to come from to fund high value drops?
They don't magically appear. Every bit of that AD comes from a person refining 24K per day.

And yes...those drops are rarer than the chest. That's the point. The drops were too common for the amount of AD coming into the system.

If there are too many items in the system the prices will crash indefinitely because the AD only comes from people refining AD with a few exceptions. The amount of AD people earn directly effects how much they will spend. The AH doesn't magically generate AD; somebody has to have earned that through refining 24K/Day.
(even if they buy it through the exchange, it comes from somebody refining at some point)

So...yes. I expect you will have to refine AD at some point because drops don't add AD to the game. That effect is simply your own imagination.

ckotoc666 · August 2013

Boe system was p2w.And where exactly is the rpg thing in all this since you can buy your epic set and weapons from ah?The only "players" who complain about this change are the farmers who care only to gain ad.And the excuse that is boring to run many times a dungeon to get what you want is lame.You dont play alone in this game.When you do a dungeon you go with a group of ppl and they need to get loot too.

greeniewolf0 · August 2013

ambisinisterr wrote: »

Numerous threads discussed the need for Bind on Pickup gear in positive light.

Example One
Example Two
Example Three
Example Four

Of course it was never a one sided argument and there were people on both sides of the argument expressing views. These aren't even the main ones I remember but many, many people were quite upset at the lack of BoP.

You'll also notice how people even said they didn't care in those threads about the fact it was BoE just because the prices were still in the millions for every T2 but now that we look back the prices have dropped to the point that except for a couple of sets every T2 is 100-200K and dropping.

And those were the big threads about the issue which I haven't been able to find. There was plenty of feedback threads involving the DD Chest which expressed the ill effects it had on the in game economy.

And through it all players also want a lot of things which aren't good for the game. If you ran a poll asking if cheat codes should be added into the game players would.
Look at the Foundry Exploits which ravaged the Foundry for a few days back in May because the developers wanted to make the Foundry as rewarding as possible. The players who exploited the system ignorantly said that 'Others and I don't want to level and they gave us this tool to do things we like so I should be able to use this as an easy XP farm!' That type of action is horrible for the rest of the game...

Point is, not everything players want is best for the game. If you step away from what you want and start questioning what a BoE chest would do...
You might realize all it does is cause drop values to decrease because the drops were too common and it flooded the market.

Look at the prices now. Look at how many items are on the market now. When I last checked on Mindlfayer numerous sets didn't even have helmets (one of the most expensive items) available to purchase. Every T2 Set Piece seems to have increased just within a few days. They will of course find their new home soon enough but the economy is looking much healthier IMO and that is the most important thing.

yeah I look at prices now. They are FINALLY coming in line with other MMOs. Instead of prices being in the millions they are in the 50-200k range. Where they should be. Quite frankly I'm fed up with everything being so god awfully overpriced. Bags are $10 USD, where as most mmo's I play they are half that. Pet upgrades are 1.6+ to take a pet from white to purple quality. At most it should be a tenth of that. Yes hard core gamers that have NOTHING else to do can earn millions easily, but most of us have school, jobs, and lives outside of this game and do not want or have hundreds of USD to keep dropping in the game.

Where Did, "The Feedback," Come From?

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