Tag trading?

agentjaspor · August 2013

So with the new Module landing tomorrow, I was thinking about the whole new tagging system and how authors won't have the ability to tag their own quests when the feature launches.

What do people think of including "tag trading" as part of the ongoing "review trading" practice? In other words, when an author asks that their quest be reviewed, they also list a few tags they'd like for it to be marked with upon completion.

I realize this sort of goes against the spirit of the "Well, the community will be the ones who determine what a quest should be tagged as" concept. But it will also give quests at least some initial tag associations, particularly new ones that won't show up in the advanced search since they'll have zero tags to start with.

Thoughts?

mrthebozer · August 2013

I think this is a great idea, though I do think the players reserve the right to disagree with the author on which tags are appropriate. I think if I saw this, I would definitely jot them down as my "default" tags to use at the end, and only make changes to the list if my own experience is dramatically different from what they suggest.

Of course, if it is part of a review, I might save tagging for a second playthrough in that case, and just let the author know my feelings on it. Hm - forget my stipulation, it's a great idea.

Edit: on a much more self serving note, I think we need a thread for older quests that need tags.

karitr · August 2013

mrthebozer wrote: »

Edit: on a much more self serving note, I think we need a thread for older quests that need tags.

I certainly intend to replay older quests to tag them...and of course for the fun of playing.

jaspor, I think tag trading is a good idea, but only (please) if the tags are honest. If they aren't then you will only pull ratings down when player expectations are not met.

eldarth · August 2013

Absolutely! This was essentially what I was suggesting to badbotlimit - the author would simply "seed" the first tags so that the quest would show up on searches otherwise it starts out nearly invisible.

And tag trading I think allows the person doing the tagging to basically "validate" what the author believes should be the tags. If the tag trader doesn't agree then they could just tag the ones they do agree with and perhaps others. But at least the quest then starts out with something.

agentjaspor · August 2013

eldarth wrote: »

And tag trading I think allows the person doing the tagging to basically "validate" what the author believes should be the tags. If the tag trader doesn't agree then they could just tag the ones they do agree with and perhaps others. But at least the quest then starts out with something.

Exactly. It will be interesting to watch how the advanced search results unfold over the first few hours and days as quests start being tagged.

badbotlimit · August 2013

We will be watching it very closely.
Keep in mind that we will be republishing all of the Foundry Quests and that will take some time.
As the Catalog grows (publishes complete) players will be able to start tagging quests.

klixan · August 2013

Keep in mind that we will be republishing all of the Foundry Quests and that will take some time.

Does this mean all foundry quests need to be re-published for the new system? Should Author's withdraw their quests and republish them?

runis12 · August 2013

badbotlimit wrote: »

Keep in mind that we will be republishing all of the Foundry Quests and that will take some time.

Probably a silly question, but can they be published with the whole profanity filter bug? o.O

agentjaspor · August 2013

klixan wrote: »

Does this mean all foundry quests need to be re-published for the new system? Should Author's withdraw their quests and republish them?

If previous instances of this is any indication, authors don't have to do anything. This is something they (the developers) do automatically on their end.

agentjaspor · August 2013

runis12 wrote: »

Probably a silly question, but can they be published with the whole profanity filter bug? o.O

In theory, today's update fixed the profanity issue. We'll see...

antonkyle · August 2013

agentjaspor wrote: »

In theory, today's update fixed the profanity issue. We'll see...

Lets hope so.

I will be tagging any new quests I review. If I can tag quests without playing them I will also tag ones I reviewed in the past.(but I can't see that being the case) Doubt I will replay many quests just for this reason though. Maybe some of the ones that were ace.

I still think it is idiotic that you can't tag your own. I would have thought that was the point.

klixan · August 2013

I still think it is idiotic that you can't tag your own. I would have thought that was the point.

Oh! This is news to me! I thought we'd now be able to use search tags in our quests to make them easier to find. Are you saying Author's can't tag their own quests?

zovya · August 2013

klixan wrote: »

Oh! This is news to me! I thought we'd now be able to use search tags in our quests to make them easier to find. Are you saying Author's can't tag their own quests?

Correct. Tagging happens in the review window. Authors can't review their own quests.

klixan · August 2013

Bummer! That seems rather absurd! But I guess we'll just have to see how it goes.

boomba66 · August 2013

I just hope it isn't like the best list and the new best list where when you start to get near the top suddenly you see a rash of one that has caused some of our better foundry creators to quit.

agentjaspor · August 2013

Here's a very good explanation from badbotlimit on why they decided not to allow authors to tag their own quests initially:

http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?436591-Official-tag-list-feedback&p=5619581&viewfull=1#post5619581

ash4ll · August 2013

I'll add tag trading functionality to my thread, thanks for noticing.

karitr · August 2013

badbotlimit explained the reasoning behind the decision to make this a player tag system and not an author led one in the preview thread. Here's the post:

While discussing the options for the tag system we looked at several other games and products/services that use tags. We also weighed the pros and cons of having author driven tags vs. player driven tags.

Here are two things that we struggled with and discussed.
Almost immediately the tags added by users are perceived as "incorrect" by the author

Almost immediately the tags added by the author are perceived as "incorrect" and ignored by the player

The perception in both of these cases is that the system is broken
Having two sources with different investment levels adding qualifiers to the content presents a potential conflict for the user. The user looses confidence in the system when it appears the system is broken.

In a test where the author seeds the initial tags we see that player tags outweigh and dilute the tag an author may have added in just a few plays. With the number of plays we are seeing on live, that single tag becomes invisible if the other tags, added by users, are not the same.

There is, admittedly, an assumption on our part.
In the end the more a tag is used, the closer the content matches that tag. That match happens without an initial seed of tags. After investigation, weighing options and looking at potential issues with the system, we decided not to include author tagging for now.

I will however say that the discussion of author seeded tags is not closed. We are rolling out the tag system without author seeded tags but we will be watching the way tags are used very closely. There will be a review of the system, it's use and the needs of both the player and author.

Let's keep an eye on it together.

And the thread link - http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?436591-Official-tag-list-feedback (NB: The tags proposed in the OP were changed over the course of the discussion and is not the list we will see in 32 mins. You can check through the thread to find the tags the team finally decided upon).

bluedarky · August 2013

I brought this up in the TavernUGC Podcast yesterday and pointed out that the system will probably work well as there are no negative tags, only positive ones.

This way people can't maliciously give negative tags to missions because they don't like the author, or because the mission is a Spotlighted mission, or the several other reasons why people maliciously give low ratings to missions that don't deserve it.

There choices are, positive tag, or no tag, no chance to negatively impact the mission at all.

antonkyle · August 2013

One problem though, is the reason I wanted a tag system was to spread the plays around more Authors. It seems silly to me that any quest on the best or featured tab will get up to and over 1000 plays a day where as new quests struggle to get 20 over a month. It has nothing to do with the quality of the quests, it is the way the system is geared. Play two - often the quickest - come back the next day. (often playing the same quests.)

If Authors can't tag then how do those quests not getting plays get tags? So I fail to see how it will help really. I hold judgment but my expectations are not high for this.

agentjaspor · August 2013

antonkyle wrote: »

One problem though, is the reason I wanted a tag system was to spread the plays around more Authors. It seems silly to me that any quest on the best or featured tab will get up to and over 1000 plays a day where as new quests struggle to get 20 over a month. It has nothing to do with the quality of the quests, it is the way the system is geared. Play two - often the quickest - come back the next day. (often playing the same quests.)

If Authors can't tag then how do those quests not getting plays get tags? So I fail to see how it will help really. I hold judgment but my expectations are not high for this.

Well, yes, this might not be an instant fix for the "rich get richer" pattern. But consider this:

Previously, in order to get out of the initial "not showing up" limbo, review trades are a popular way to get several reviews and possibly become eligible for the daily. But there was no mechanism to get further than that. Unless the quest became featured, was extraordinarily good, and had quite a bit of luck, there's just wasn't much chance of breaking into that group of quests that gets thousands of plays and lands on the easily accessible lists. Once the quest is off the "New" list and doesn't make the cut for the "Best" list, it's in a limbo where really the only way someone finds it is by short code, author, or somehow stumbles across it by chance.

Now, at least during those initial reviews the quest will potentially be tagged. Which means it will show up in the advanced search with more frequency for those searching by tags.

If the new advanced search becomes popular and the tag system is working well, we should see an improvement to the overall visibility of quests, big and small.

*Crosses fingers*

antonkyle · August 2013

agentjaspor wrote: »

Well, yes, this might not be an instant fix for the "rich get richer" pattern. But consider this:

Previously, in order to get out of the initial "not showing up" limbo, review trades are a popular way to get several reviews and possibly become eligible for the daily. But there was no mechanism to get further than that. Unless the quest became featured, was extraordinarily good, and had quite a bit of luck, there's just wasn't much chance of breaking into that group of quests that gets thousands of plays and lands on the easily accessible lists. Once the quest is off the "New" list and doesn't make the cut for the "Best" list, it's in a limbo where really the only way someone finds it is by short code, author, or somehow stumbles across it by chance.

Now, at least during those initial reviews the quest will potentially be tagged. Which means it will show up in the advanced search with more frequency for those searching by tags.

If the new advanced search becomes popular and the tag system is working well, we should see an improvement to the overall visibility of quests, big and small.

*Crosses fingers*

True, enough. It is a travesty that quests that are no longer 'new' can not be found except a direct search of the Author(this is hopefully finished now).

I still think the real issue is the reward system. Like I said two a day and usually the shortest that fit within the daily. That will be the majority of people's mind set. Also with the featured tab, I've only played for little over six weeks or so but they seem to be 4/1 not in English. Is that a fair representation of the player base?

agentjaspor · August 2013

antonkyle wrote: »

Also with the featured tab, I've only played for little over six weeks or so but they seem to be 4/1 not in English. Is that a fair representation of the player base?

There are only 1-3 quests per language featured at any given time. It's a limited time thing, though the featured versions (ie, the copies) do hang around afterwards and many of them make up the "Best" list.

karitr · August 2013

antonkyle wrote:

It is a travesty that quests that are no longer 'new' can not be found except a direct search of the Author(this is hopefully finished now).

I've never known that to be the case.

I don't think the new search functions mean that authors will no longer need to promote their quests either. What it should mean is that if I, as a player, want to search for a long, story quest, for example, the results returned will be more relevant than they are right now.

I've only played for little over six weeks or so but they seem to be 4/1 not in English. Is that a fair representation of the player base?

Aside from the facts your numbers are a little off AND that probably is a good representation of the player base, surely featured quests should be based on their innovation and quality, not languages or player demographics.

antonkyle · August 2013

karitr wrote: »

I've never known that to be the case.

I don't think the new search functions mean that authors will no longer need to promote their quests either. What it should mean is that if I, as a player, want to search for a long, story quest, for example, the results returned will be more relevant than they are right now.

I'm not sure what you mean by you haven't found that to be the case. So where would I find a quest that is no longer on the new tab? Anyway, it may not be an issue now.

karitr wrote: »

Aside from the facts your numbers are a little off AND that probably is a good representation of the player base, surely featured quests should be based on their innovation and quality, not languages or player demographics.

I didn't look in my first two to three week in all fairness but in the last 3-4 weeks I don't think my numbers are that far off. A quest can never be great if you can't understand it, a story driven one at least. So although yes, the best should be featured they also should be in-line with the player base. For all I know they are. It was just a question. I would say that there should be language based tabs anyway.

redneckronin · August 2013

antonkyle wrote: »

If Authors can't tag then how do those quests not getting plays get tags? So I fail to see how it will help really. I hold judgment but my expectations are not high for this.

Agree with this.

Have to say I think it totally stupid that Tags are applied by players.

I publish a new quest. No tags. Because its got no tags no one will play it. And until it is played it won't get tags. Yeah, that's clever thinking from the Foundry Dev Team... ...not.

This doesn't make it easier to get quests played, it makes it harder.

All The Best

agentjaspor · August 2013

redneckronin wrote: »

I publish a new quest. No tags. Because its got no tags no one will play it. And until it is played it won't get tags. Yeah, that's clever thinking from the Foundry Dev Team... ...not.

This doesn't make it easier to get quests played, it makes it harder.

It's definitely not any worse than the previous system...

Old System:
I publish a new quest. No visibility. Because it has no visibility no one will play it. Well except the "For Review" tab.... maybe.. sometimes.. If you're lucky... And until it is played it won't make it onto the "New" tab.

How do you get those plays? Advertise like crazy, ask some friends to try it, and/or do review trades.

New System:
Exactly the same for a brand spanking new quest except that when you get that initial set of plays they will likely come with some tags. Which will increase visibility to people searching by tags.

Which brings us full circle to the point of this thread in the first place - Why not include tag trading as part of the whole "review trading" concept to gain some visibility on quests?

karitr · August 2013

antonkyle wrote: »

I'm not sure what you mean by you haven't found that to be the case. So where would I find a quest that is no longer on the new tab? Anyway, it may not be an issue now.

You said you could only find quests by searching for the name of the author. This just isn't true.

For example, you can do a word search, so for your quests I might use "dwarven", "rebellion", "underworld", "magical" or "tour" and there is a chance your quests will appear on the page. I believe the search terms are picked up from the overview as well as the title, as sometimes I have had results that don't use my search terms in the title itself. So, you know, 'tags' have always been searchable, and now the catalogue will make that more evident and, hopefully, more relevant.

beeblebrox69 · August 2013

This new system MIGHT help some, but I still don't get why two simple fixes couldn't be implemented:

1) Add subtabs to the BEST: BEST ALL-TIME, BEST THIS MONTH, BEST THIS WEEK, BEST TODAY... That way the insanely awesome Foundries could still be found, but newer standouts could have a chance to at least be seen besides a hanging on a few weeks in the NEW tab. I know the NEW tab kind of fills in for month/week/today, but I like LOTS of options.

2) Add a NEXT button to all tabs, particularly the BEST tab. Why limit the list when a gem of an adventure is hiding just one spot down? To me, this is just really silly.

But we'll wait and see.

(In the meantime, my quest could use some plays and some tagging...)

klixan · August 2013

I've just looked through the list of available tags and they missed one. Devs, if you're reading this, please add 'Easy' as one of the tags. If I was tagging my own quests, that's the tag I'd want to use.

When searching for a new quest to play, 'Easy' is the first term I use. I think other people search for it too. I've added the word easy in all my quest descriptions and I've had no trouble getting plays and reviews, even though I don't advertize or promote my quests.

So I think 'Easy' is a very important search tag to have.

redneckronin · August 2013

agentjaspor wrote: »

Which brings us full circle to the point of this thread in the first place - Why not include tag trading as part of the whole "review trading" concept to gain some visibility on quests?

I stopped doing review trades because its somewhat artistically incestuous.
There's an implication of "you give me a good review, I'll give you one".

Which is precisely why I signed up over at Scribe's Enclave.

The Author is the only person who should be able to designate the Tags for his/her quest. He/She is the only person who knows the true intent behind the Quest.

All the problems we have seen with dishonest reviews and ratings will now be multiplied by the Tag system.

Soon as people start to see which Tag the majority of players avoid that Tag will become a weapon to keep people from getting plays.

Letting players set the Tag is the very worst case scenario.

Best case scenario is to allow the Author to preselect the range of Tags, and then let players choose from that range.

All The Best

Tag trading?

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