All of my experience is coming from a pugging perspective, and trust me, the loss of several 'overpowered' options is going to make pulling a terribad group through a dungeon far, far too tiresome for me.
Fair enough i see your point, i don't PUG at all really and i if i do i make sure its in a T2 that is pretty darn easy.
It doesnt seem terrible that as a group healer i slot a full heal bar.
You will be stuck with same three skills ( with minor variations) in every dungeon. It dose get old wary fast. And it upsets me that most of my skill tree will be used in foundry content only.
It doesnt seem terrible that i actually need to save my cooldowns as opposed to spamming a rotation because it will be right back up.
Thats exactly what you will be doing, spaming skills immediatly as soon as they are off cooldown. Unless you are in pro team with pro gear. But thats another story.
I like that I need to save AS for the right time, i like that i dont have 100% uptime on a daily power, even if the power level of the tools are shifting down some, i like the fact that the tools are more equal.
I never had uptime of 100% on my Dailies and im build for it. The real numbers are around 70%.
I like that now i dont HAVE to have sunburst on my bar. I like that i dont have to use HG. We are getting more viable options even if it comes at the expense of several overpowered options. (not OP like broken, but just far far better than anything else.)
Correction you HAVE to use sunburst to proc foresight and generate high Divinity. Nothing changes here. You will use HG, well maybe DA from time to time. What viable options if i may ask? Hammer of Faith got hit by a nerf bat too. There are no viable options besides generation of high DP.
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seisem2Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
You will be stuck with same three skills ( with minor variations) in every dungeon. It dose get old wary fast. And it upsets me that most of my skill tree will be used in foundry content only.
Thats exactly what you will be doing, spaming skills immediatly as soon as they are off cooldown. Unless you are in pro team with pro gear. But thats another story.
I never had uptime of 100% on my Dailies and im build for it. The real numbers are around 70%.
Correction you HAVE to use sunburst to proc foresight and generate high Divinity. Nothing changes here. You will use HG, well maybe DA from time to time. What viable options if i may ask? Hammer of Faith got hit by a nerf bat too. There are no viable options besides generation of high DP.
I think you got it backwards here man.
Since Sunburst is no longer a free AP bar full (2 shots anyway) it is no longer required on your bar. That gives you a free slot right there to sub something else in. AS will always be on the bar, it is the best encounter and getting buffed in the patch (albeit slightly). So really its AS and whatever the heck else you want. Right now its AS+SB+ whatever the heck else you want.
If you dont lean on Hallowed ground so much you can drop that for Divine Armor (which i have been using more and more lately.) since you are not leaning on HG so much you dont really even need AP except for the rare occasion you HAVE to use DA.
Divine is going to take care of itself because of my feats. Foresight will stay procced all the time no matter if i am running SB or HW or FF or whatever.
All things are subjective on each persons own experiences and playstyle of course. However with my playstyle i am excited for it.
I already have ditched HG and the ever present crazy AP gain race anyway. Allowed me to feat bastions warding for more damage reduct.
My plans post patch are to be running
CLASS: Foresight+divine fortune/holy fervor/healers lore (depending on what feels best post patch).
AT-WILLS: SF + AS
ENCOUNTERS: SB/HW/FF + AS + Bastion
DAILIES: Divine armor + HG
Running a 2/14/15 feat spread. Synergies with temp hit points, emphasis on damage reduction and using warding on bastion on AS downtime.
Edit: The nerf of Sunburst actually leads to more viability. The AP gain is nerfed overall, that leads to even MORE viability for build.
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seisem2Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Since Sunburst is no longer a free AP bar full (2 shots anyway) it is no longer required on your bar. That gives you a free slot right there to sub something else in. AS will always be on the bar, it is the best encounter and getting buffed in the patch (albeit slightly). So really its AS and whatever the heck else you want. Right now its AS+SB+ whatever the heck else you want.
If you dont lean on Hallowed ground so much you can drop that for Divine Armor (which i have been using more and more lately.) since you are not leaning on HG so much you dont really even need AP except for the rare occasion you HAVE to use DA.
Divine is going to take care of itself because of my feats. Foresight will stay procced all the time no matter if i am running SB or HW or FF or whatever.
All things are subjective on each persons own experiences and playstyle of course. However with my playstyle i am excited for it.
I already have ditched HG and the ever present crazy AP gain race anyway. Allowed me to feat bastions warding for more damage reduct.
My plans post patch are to be running
CLASS: Foresight+divine fortune/holy fervor/healers lore (depending on what feels best post patch).
AT-WILLS: SF + AS
ENCOUNTERS: SB/HW/FF + AS + Bastion
DAILIES: Divine armor + HG
Running a 2/14/15 feat spread. Synergies with temp hit points, emphasis on damage reduction and using warding on bastion on AS downtime.
Edit: The nerf of Sunburst actually leads to more viability. The AP gain is nerfed overall, that leads to even MORE viability for build.
An encounter being made to be less useful does not make other encounters more viable. It means you don’t really have a viable option so you may as well use whatever.
Viability - You use that word but I do not think it means what you think it means.
Since Sunburst is no longer a free AP bar full (2 shots anyway) it is no longer required on your bar. That gives you a free slot right there to sub something else in. AS will always be on the bar, it is the best encounter and getting buffed in the patch (albeit slightly). So really its AS and whatever the heck else you want. Right now its AS+SB+ whatever the heck else you want.
If you dont lean on Hallowed ground so much you can drop that for Divine Armor (which i have been using more and more lately.) since you are not leaning on HG so much you dont really even need AP except for the rare occasion you HAVE to use DA.
Divine is going to take care of itself because of my feats. Foresight will stay procced all the time no matter if i am running SB or HW or FF or whatever.
All things are subjective on each persons own experiences and playstyle of course. However with my playstyle i am excited for it.
I already have ditched HG and the ever present crazy AP gain race anyway. Allowed me to feat bastions warding for more damage reduct.
My plans post patch are to be running
CLASS: Foresight+divine fortune/holy fervor/healers lore (depending on what feels best post patch).
AT-WILLS: SF + AS
ENCOUNTERS: SB/HW/FF + AS + Bastion
DAILIES: Divine armor + HG
Running a 2/14/15 feat spread. Synergies with temp hit points, emphasis on damage reduction and using warding on bastion on AS downtime.
Edit: The nerf of Sunburst actually leads to more viability. The AP gain is nerfed overall, that leads to even MORE viability for build.
While I partially agree with you that SB was quite broken and needed a fix, devs can't come and say: "Okay, you were using a crappy spell to build AP because it was bugged. We fixed the bug but it keeps being as crappy as before. No wait, now it's crappier".
Honestly, there was no reason to use SB other than building AP (and the occasional (very rare) knockback). Now, why would I want to use SB? LS was made impossible to proc with tab+SB+tab too.
Astral Shield still kicks *** even after being nerfed and fixed (it has never been buffed FYI) and to be honest... I don't see the appeal on Bastion or HW. The former having an extremely and stupidly long cooldown and the latter not being affected by recovery.
You know... to effectively build AP now you need encounters with short cooldowns but most of our (worth using) support spells have long cooldowns.
One option would be using Prophecy. Nice when you have it on paper -> not so much when you put it in practice.
The other option is to run with AS+offensive spells. They have a short cooldown and some of them are supportive aswell (Divine Glow -> I personally love this one). The problem here is that you may not be very group friendly with just one support encounter.
Or, you can play the healbot role (which seems to be your favourite) and play the AS+FF+BoH rotation (or a combination of healing stuff).
This last option is boring, very boring, and tiring.
What the cleric class really needs is its encounters being REWORKED. You can't really deny that there are only a handful of encounters that are worth slotting in a "dungeony" situation. We can't really be creative when our support spells are barely doing their job, leaving us no choice but to choose "the best of" and combine them however we can.
Sure, removing SB from the picture leaves us open to more variety, the problem is that we lack the resources to vary the current playstyle and perform as well as we did with SB being buggy.
Morsitans, I'm not sure why you'd stick to pure heals if you don't like being a healbot, but personally I've been running Sunburst/Astral Shield/x ever since before the AS nerf. I've gone with Sunburst/Astral Shield + Forgemaster's/Daunting Light/Searing Light/Break the Spirit/Chains and even Prophecy of Doom, depending on what my party needed. And yes, on T2's and CN. I slot Healer's Lore/Terrifying Insight and Holy Fervor (surprise, no Foresight) and in ideal conditions I could pull off dailies within ~15 seconds of each other given at least 3 enemy targets. That last part, of course, was the key to my "healing". The more mobs there were, the faster I could generate AP and highlight of my build is when my party was surrounded by mobs and I was generating AP so fast I could actually start stacking my Hallowed Grounds with my Divine Armors.
Build diversity has always been there, people were simply too afraid to look perhaps because they really thought that the AS nerf really was that damaging to clerics. It was not. I have never been less of an attacker cleric ever since I started playing the game back in open beta. Sunburst has also never left my bar since beta. Back then we were secondary tankers because of all the aggro our heals generated (and GF aggro management was near non-existent at the time) and Sunburst was pretty much mandatory since the divine mode version gave us a brief respite.
What I find truly shocking is that there are actually people crying about these changes when they obviously have not even begun to realize just how damaging these are, particularly to the few clerics who do not and who have never considered ourselves "healbots" (btw Sunburst also generates AP for each ally healed, and the patch specifies that only the extra AP from "enemy targets" is affected. The nerf is actually not as severe to some builds).
However, the reason I am confident we will pull through is because Cryptic has never really let us down yet. They nerfed AS, yes, but they also made it so that we no longer needed 100% uptime on AS in the first place. We complained about PvP, and so they came and nerfed the striker classes first because of the module, and then some. I'm assuming you're aware of just how hard the rogue class was hit. Right now they're nerfing Sunburst, but we're getting significantly better gear (higher damage and survivability for everyone - the higher damage part alone is going to guarantee faster boss kills) and level 30 companions which by design are supposed to hold their own against level 60 mobs. There's obviously a reason why we're getting such a big nerf, which is why I'm very eager to see just what it is about the new module that has convinced the devs that we needed this nerf.
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I have....absolutely no idea why that's directed at me. You seem to say "I've been running with the same two encounters since forever", which...well who hasn't? Astral shield is so good it was still the best skill bar none even when it couldn't be maintained 100% of the time, and sunburst was the best skill bar none at generating the necessary AP and DP to fuel astral shield and (post nerf) the downtime period, via HG or DA.
I was there in early beta too, I remember what spending the entire time kiting everyone's adds was like. In a sense it was kinda amusing, since at least that way I could make sure SOMEONE was handling the adds (it was me). But what cryptic doesn't seem to grasp is that encouraging people to use other skills by making the good ones worthless is a really bad way of approaching it. If sunburst can't generate AP or proc linked spirit, then really...what good is it? The DP can be gained by doing other, more useful things, the knockback really shouldn't be needed (and if it is you have bigger problems than sunburst), the damage is pretty low, the heal is pretty crappy.
What's worrying is that even in light of all the above, I don't actually think we have all that much else to replace it. Instead of doing one thing amazingly, one thing ok, and two things crappily (AP, DP, damage&heals), it now does one thing ok and three things crappily...but it still fulfills FOUR ROLES. It's similar to the astral shield nerf: it's unarguably worse, but still better than the other HAMSTER we have.
Also, and this I cannot stress enough: do you pug? Because saying "depending on what your party needed" sounds to me very much like you're running with guildies or premades: people who can play well and communicate. If you pug much, you will know that what your party needs is "constant, constant healing and mitigation, plx", and that's getting harder and harder to provide.
All these people saying "yeah, s'not gonna affect me much": They're good players, running WITH good players. We're pretty much the only class whose contribution is critically team dependent. In a great team, we don't even need to be there. In a terrible terrible team, we need to bring our absolute total A-game, and the more they make that difficult, the less likely people are to bother.
It's generally a bad idea to try to make exisiting content more challenging for top-tier players by "nerfing everything", because they're probably barely going to notice: that's why they're top tier players, in top tier gear. The game for them went from easy to "marginally less easy". You give them harder content, it doesn't even need to be new harder content. It could be like epic EPIC dungeons, or something (seriously, select all monsters in cloak tower, add 5 levels, done).
Conversely, all the less top-tier players are suddenly going to find their fun, challenging game is now a chore to play, and they'll get pissed off.
Finally, to all the people saying OLOL U CANT HADNLE TEH CHANGE LOL: think about it this way. If they replaced the entire cleric skillset with one button that added 2 hp to a random party member, and that was all you could do...would you be annoyed? If your answer is yes, then you also can't handle change. You simply have a presumably higher tolerance threshold than I do (and of course, if the answer is no, then you're an idiot).
The cleric in neverwinter has the potential to be something really interesting, but (for me) it's progessively moving away from 'enjoyable' and rapidly toward 'frustrating'. I can HANDLE change, certainly, but if I'm playing a game, for entertainment, in my scant amounts of free time, why should I stick around and do something I don't enjoy?
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fathomfulMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 207Bounty Hunter
edited August 2013
i stated in my post that it was subjective to each and every persons playstyle.
In this patch the changes just happen to complement my playstyle, buff my build and increase my enjoyment by offering more options. I am lucky in this instance i suppose.
Yes you can say it would be better to buff all other encounters rather than nerf one. I can get behind that, but that takes tons of work and in my opinion doesnt fit with the theme of decreasing power levels across all classes.
I understand what viability means, however determining what constitutes viability is subjective. It was probably a poor choice of words though.
However my point is still correct. With SB no longer being better than everything else it opens up another encounter spot that used to HAVE to be SB. Just because you are half empty person does not change the end result, just your perspective of it.
With respec fees the way they are and so many balance updates i think we have barely scratched the surface of what "viable" cleric builds are.
I'm asking why you're playing like a healbot since apparently you don't like to play as one.
I do run pugs. Not as frequently nowadays, but I still do. Sunburst will still generate lots of AP, the fix is for "enemy targets". Note that Sunburst also generates AP for each ally hit. Even nerfed it will likely still be one of our strongest AP generators, if only because of its low CD.
I specifically included "depending on what my party needs" because pugs are random. Sometimes you don't get a wizard, sometimes you don't get a rogue... Regardless of all that, I maintain my standards. I expect GWFs to use Slam (that may change, depending on how useful Slam's enemy damage reduction is). I expect rogues to use smoke when there's no wizard in the party. I expect solo wizards to use spell mastered Entangling Force if control is badly needed. I expect everyone to carry pots/kits. Then I make up for whatever else is missing: if more CC is needed, I slot Chains. By dropping chains below Singularities or after the wizard uses Steal Time I give him a bit more time to build AP. I use Break the Spirit against dangerous mobs like Thoons or Syndrith in her humanoid form, so people can then use pots to regain HP instead of getting 1-shotted. I use Forgemaster's if the party keeps getting split up. I make my opinions known, and usually people will cooperate.
It's not always about needing to heal more or needing more mitigation. You may not think so, but my insight is based on how in particularly hectic fights I can keep Divine Armor up at 100% of the time. Combined with AS and other minor stuff like Sunburst/Soothing Light/pots/Holy Avenger, if more healing/mitigation is still needed at this point then you have to wonder if something else is terribly wrong. I did use to run SB/AS/FF a lot of the time. I still do if I play with guildies - ironic, given your statement. The reason is because they already know everything that is expected of them, so all they really need from me is healing.
You there. New to the game? Feeling overwhelmed? Maybe you think getting to end-game is impossible for a casual player like yourself, or maybe you just need to be around a community that helps each other stay sane and competitive with the latest news, current trends, random chitchat and most of all LEGIT (that is, we try to keep things fair) gameplay. If you don't mind being around quirky people and the rare occasional drama (one of our prominent TR members is apparently a mafia godfather) join nw_legit_community at http://www.nwlegitcommunity.shivtr.com/forum_threads/2330542.
Sun burst isn't a heal, it's an aoe damage spell with a heal effect, and if you want to run bastion of HAMSTER + daunting light + AS, well, now you can because you don't need (even if you should want) to use SB for AP. Yes you can really get rid of SB, if convenient, easy to use spells make you furious. If you want to make your game more complex, go ahead, bastion of health has been buffed lately and the healing per second should be equivalent to sun burst, you just lose the damage. You can also respec out of faithful now. I can switch to a faithful LOLDPS cleric build when i want to and i am often #1 damage when i use it, it's not hard, it works well, and it's also super boring since it makes everyone running on pots on CD and you take so much aggro the GF starts yelling on you to know wtf you're doing, but yes, you can, it works, you can LOLDPS, make your epeen bigger and keep the party alive with good healing from AS only.
In the past I resisted using Sunburst, but it's just too good to pass up. It procs too many bonuses NOT to use it.
Would love it if Cryptic would consider tweaking other powers to make them more attractive options for the average group. Maybe a wider radius on Divine FF's heal or a lifesteal DoT for Prophecy. Unfortunately, there is currently an excellent reason why AS and SB are both almost always slotted outside of Foundry.
I'm asking why you're playing like a healbot since apparently you don't like to play as one.
...what?
Yes, I play a cleric because I hate healing. I tried being a GF but they heal people too much. (??!??)
-_-
NB: the above is sarcasm. The fact I feel it necessary to make this clear is...quite depressing.
Let's try and break it down into nice easily digestible statements:
>Ooh! Neverwinter beta is up! I'll try that, see how the healer is.
>Hey, this is kinda interesting: you have to be much more aggressive to get the power for heals. Huh, aside from the laughable divinity at-wills, it seems to work ok, but I wonder how it'll cope at endgame.
>Oh! We get astral shield, and it is lovely. That's basically all the healing a team needs, so I can dedicated-healbot hopeless groups through T2s, or in good groups actually be a healbot with additional utility? Now that IS different. I like this!
NERF
>Oh. Ok, no: maybe just a healbot, then. Hrmm, well, it's still manageable, what with sunburst being so useful for generating AP/DP, and if my pug turns out to be not facepalmingly stupid, I can still sometimes get away with being a healbot with utility.
NERF
>Oh, ok, so exactly the same, but now needlessly more difficult? That just raises the threshold of team skill needed to do anything except healbot (also, all the classes have been nerfed, so that'll be more difficult), and also healbotting is now more of a chore. Hooray?
That's pretty much the process. It's the continual shift from something (for me) that was interesting, different, and FUN, to something that is more like work than anything else. And I get enough work..at work.
It looked very much like they were trying to break out of the generic healer mold, and take it in a different direction. This was interesting. Mind you, I quite enjoy the traditional healer mold too, but it was a refreshing change.
What it progressively feels like is that they don't actually have a clue where they're going with this class, other than...downhill. The 'balancing' thus far seems to amount to "watch what powers clerics use a lot, make those powers worse". Occasionally they throw us a bone, but 90% of the time it's either fixing something that should've been working from the start (often breaking something else in the process), or it's a buff to punishing/soothing light, which even after all the buffs, remain terrible.
I wouldn't be so frustrated if I didn't enjoy playing: I really did, it was some of the most dynamic and engaging healing I've seen in an MMO, but it's just getting less and less fun, with no clear signs of improving (or even moving in a consistent direction).
EDIT: also, of course, respecs are stupidly expensive. :-/
While I agree with the general sentiment that playing with pugs is almost always a horrible experience and a waste of time, I wouldn't say that it has much to do with the Cleric. I don't think that healers should be expected to heal stupid people who do stupid things in any game, personally.
I play with my guild and I've recruited people as well because, well... of COURSE it will be better! I've accepted the fact that pugging in this game is a nightmare and so not worth my time, so I adapted to that fact and gathered like minded, similarly skilled people and now it's a blast.
So in short, it's not a healing issue IMO. It's a player issue.
Its a Cleric. Not a healer. People seem to have the most difficult time grasping this concept. You are playing a Dungeons and Dragons based game so maybe you should read about what a Cleric is in the DnD 4th edition (its on Wikipedia and its only a few sentences...you'll survive). If you say a Cleric is terrible in PVP its probably because you are terrible at timing your slides to immune avoid GF bulls and whatever attack rogues do when they jump in the air behind you. Also that you aren't using divine Forgemasters and staying near the target while you kill them. I have zero problems killing people in PVP and if I am healing in PVP I can outlast other players no problem till I dot/sunburst kill them or my team comes up to smash them. I can top the DPS charts in my CN runs (until CW begin throwing over edges) even with a 31 Faithful spec by stacking armor pen and understanding how to stack armor/protection mitigation(wearing a T1 set mind you). Action Point gains are broken considering I can pop my daily with one well placed sunburst.
Also you people desperately need to reconsider what you call an exploit...if the mobs can knock you over the edge its not an exploit for you to knock them over. For all the people panicking that CN Draco will be impossible its perfectly doable still without 3 CW chain singing.
Couldn't agree with Fefeenah more its a player issue and the reason why they are stuck doing pugs is probably because they themselves are terrible and either can't get into a guild or can't build a decent friends list. Cleric class is awesome in every way and I welcome the changes because it will only further weed out the derps that give Clerics a bad name.
Couldn't agree with Fefeenah more its a player issue and the reason why they are stuck doing pugs is probably because they themselves are terrible and either can't get into a guild or can't build a decent friends list.
Well, get out to the real world my friend, a little sunlight won't hurt you.
My issue here is that I cannot become a mmo slave mainly because of the lack of time, and you can't really expect to be in a "pro" party/group/guild if you're not a regular, dedicated, slave gamer.
Mind you, I though I could join a guild... but at the second day of not logging in I got ditched or /deleted from friendlists.
Now tell me a tale with a happy ending, I must go to sleep and i don't wanna have nightmares.
Well, get out to the real world my friend, a little sunlight won't hurt you.
My issue here is that I cannot become a mmo slave mainly because of the lack of time, and you can't really expect to be in a "pro" party/group/guild if you're not a regular, dedicated, slave gamer.
Mind you, I though I could join a guild... but at the second day of not logging in I got ditched or /deleted from friendlists.
First and foremost if you aren't a regular player/dedicated/slave gamer why would you be posting on a forum for the game? I work full time so not quite sure what you mean by real world...have a feeling I experience it more than yourself. Also considering you can't check how long a person hasn't logged in for outside of the Gateway I am betting heavily on over-exaggeration regarding your two day they kicked me comment.
Yup happy ending would be a Ranger class in Neverwinter.
Well, get out to the real world my friend, a little sunlight won't hurt you.
My issue here is that I cannot become a mmo slave mainly because of the lack of time, and you can't really expect to be in a "pro" party/group/guild if you're not a regular, dedicated, slave gamer.
Mind you, I though I could join a guild... but at the second day of not logging in I got ditched or /deleted from friendlists.
Now tell me a tale with a happy ending, I must go to sleep and i don't wanna have nightmares.
One thing that Neverwinter nailed is that you are in now way relegated to the slave mentality of MMO's.
Cant throw that excuse out there. There are no weekly locks, DD happens multiple times a day, etc.
I am in a huge guild that has hundreds of people. Leaders stream runs every single day. Even with my hectic work/life schedule i still can grab a run every single time i log in.
There is no excuse to not be in a guild or have friends other than you just dont wanna. (which is fine that is your choice).
I started with PuGs before i found my guild and every.... single..... run..... i did i got at least 2 friend requests. After being 60 for two weeks i had a list of 10 tanks that considered me their "personal" healer.
I met my current guild in a PuG as well. Once i heard how they operate (complete no exploit guild, no tolerance whatsoever) i joined up as soon as they would let me.
Even though i dont get the hours a day playtime others do they know my value in a group and i always get invites even if its been 2 weeks since i logged in. (having a huge guild helps of course).
My issue here is that I cannot become a mmo slave mainly because of the lack of time, and you can't really expect to be in a "pro" party/group/guild if you're not a regular, dedicated, slave gamer.
This is completely false. I am in a great guild with great people and I only log on to run dungeons maybe twice a week, tops, and am definitely not a slave gamer. I did the insane raiding schedule thing for 8 years and I'm DONE.
I think perhaps you've ended up meeting a bunch of a-holes who expect 100% attendance at every dungeon. And that is very unfortunate because this game has quite a lot to offer!
You just proved my point. You think completing a dungeon in any other way than mindlessly grinding every single monster between Point A and Point B is exploiting.
You're one of those people who complains when they random queue for a random group of players in a random dungeon and people are trying "to exploit" complete the dungeons.
As I said, you obviously play the game differently than I do. You're OK with a mediocre party with 45min-1hr Spellplague runs. Soon to become 1.5hr-2hr Spellplague runs post-patch. The more powerful gear you're talking about doesn't instantly appear in your mailbox when your game patches.
Someone who runs dungeons as you claim to will take quite some time gathering any amount of gear required to bring your toon up to the effectiveness of it's pre-patch self.
Enjoy your gimped game on a gimped class bro.
I don't play games for mediocrity. I play games to complete them and play my characters to their maximum potential.
Casual player versus Hardcore player mentality. Simple as that.
EDIT:
Oh, and about the preview server part with things supposed to be unbalanced for fine tuning. Just LOL. They announced the Cleric changes and put them up for "testing" just 7 days before going live with them. There is BARELY anyone ever on the test server dude. Have you even downloaded it? How can things be tested on a large enough scale to know what's balanced and what isn't when nobody is hardly on the test server? You tried to make a dungeon group after logging into it? How many people do you know getting 5 people to log in at the same time to test out an old dungeon? That's what I thought...you don't know anyone logging into preview to run Castle Never or Spellplague or anything. If anyone is running any dungeon it's the new one, and that has very little trash in it so that's not even what the discussion is about.
Wow you so hardcore... you so l337 gamer... wow... so gud.. so pro
If you say a Cleric is terrible in PVP its probably because you are terrible at timing your slides to immune avoid GF bulls and whatever attack rogues do when they jump in the air behind you.
Hey Dorffie, I have wanted to believe this was true for a while. I've never managed to do anything but get stomped, despite trying all the tricks. Can you put up a video of your PvP on Youtube for us, so I can see your timing and stuff? Maybe I just don't know what I'm doing.
Comments
Fair enough i see your point, i don't PUG at all really and i if i do i make sure its in a T2 that is pretty darn easy.
You will be stuck with same three skills ( with minor variations) in every dungeon. It dose get old wary fast. And it upsets me that most of my skill tree will be used in foundry content only.
Thats exactly what you will be doing, spaming skills immediatly as soon as they are off cooldown. Unless you are in pro team with pro gear. But thats another story.
I never had uptime of 100% on my Dailies and im build for it. The real numbers are around 70%.
Correction you HAVE to use sunburst to proc foresight and generate high Divinity. Nothing changes here. You will use HG, well maybe DA from time to time. What viable options if i may ask? Hammer of Faith got hit by a nerf bat too. There are no viable options besides generation of high DP.
Catalina Erantzo - GWF 13.9K GS
<Future> Guild on Dragon - Legit Non Exploit Guild (We are always recruiting great players)
Future Guild Recruitment Thread: http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?475381-lt-Future-gt-Legit-Non-Exploit-Guild-Recruiting
Me too actually, and I hope that the arrival of the patch will lead to the departure of the people who can't adapt to change
I think you got it backwards here man.
Since Sunburst is no longer a free AP bar full (2 shots anyway) it is no longer required on your bar. That gives you a free slot right there to sub something else in. AS will always be on the bar, it is the best encounter and getting buffed in the patch (albeit slightly). So really its AS and whatever the heck else you want. Right now its AS+SB+ whatever the heck else you want.
If you dont lean on Hallowed ground so much you can drop that for Divine Armor (which i have been using more and more lately.) since you are not leaning on HG so much you dont really even need AP except for the rare occasion you HAVE to use DA.
Divine is going to take care of itself because of my feats. Foresight will stay procced all the time no matter if i am running SB or HW or FF or whatever.
All things are subjective on each persons own experiences and playstyle of course. However with my playstyle i am excited for it.
I already have ditched HG and the ever present crazy AP gain race anyway. Allowed me to feat bastions warding for more damage reduct.
My plans post patch are to be running
CLASS: Foresight+divine fortune/holy fervor/healers lore (depending on what feels best post patch).
AT-WILLS: SF + AS
ENCOUNTERS: SB/HW/FF + AS + Bastion
DAILIES: Divine armor + HG
Running a 2/14/15 feat spread. Synergies with temp hit points, emphasis on damage reduction and using warding on bastion on AS downtime.
Edit: The nerf of Sunburst actually leads to more viability. The AP gain is nerfed overall, that leads to even MORE viability for build.
Yup! Also a mass departure of exploiters.
Catalina Erantzo - GWF 13.9K GS
<Future> Guild on Dragon - Legit Non Exploit Guild (We are always recruiting great players)
Future Guild Recruitment Thread: http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?475381-lt-Future-gt-Legit-Non-Exploit-Guild-Recruiting
I am personally excited to have some change. Good/Bad/Or Otherwise. (Though the hammer nurf was a bit harsh haha)
An encounter being made to be less useful does not make other encounters more viable. It means you don’t really have a viable option so you may as well use whatever.
Viability - You use that word but I do not think it means what you think it means.
While I partially agree with you that SB was quite broken and needed a fix, devs can't come and say: "Okay, you were using a crappy spell to build AP because it was bugged. We fixed the bug but it keeps being as crappy as before. No wait, now it's crappier".
Honestly, there was no reason to use SB other than building AP (and the occasional (very rare) knockback). Now, why would I want to use SB? LS was made impossible to proc with tab+SB+tab too.
Astral Shield still kicks *** even after being nerfed and fixed (it has never been buffed FYI) and to be honest... I don't see the appeal on Bastion or HW. The former having an extremely and stupidly long cooldown and the latter not being affected by recovery.
You know... to effectively build AP now you need encounters with short cooldowns but most of our (worth using) support spells have long cooldowns.
One option would be using Prophecy. Nice when you have it on paper -> not so much when you put it in practice.
The other option is to run with AS+offensive spells. They have a short cooldown and some of them are supportive aswell (Divine Glow -> I personally love this one). The problem here is that you may not be very group friendly with just one support encounter.
Or, you can play the healbot role (which seems to be your favourite) and play the AS+FF+BoH rotation (or a combination of healing stuff).
This last option is boring, very boring, and tiring.
What the cleric class really needs is its encounters being REWORKED. You can't really deny that there are only a handful of encounters that are worth slotting in a "dungeony" situation. We can't really be creative when our support spells are barely doing their job, leaving us no choice but to choose "the best of" and combine them however we can.
Sure, removing SB from the picture leaves us open to more variety, the problem is that we lack the resources to vary the current playstyle and perform as well as we did with SB being buggy.
I want this class in NW.
...inconceivable!!!!
Build diversity has always been there, people were simply too afraid to look perhaps because they really thought that the AS nerf really was that damaging to clerics. It was not. I have never been less of an attacker cleric ever since I started playing the game back in open beta. Sunburst has also never left my bar since beta. Back then we were secondary tankers because of all the aggro our heals generated (and GF aggro management was near non-existent at the time) and Sunburst was pretty much mandatory since the divine mode version gave us a brief respite.
What I find truly shocking is that there are actually people crying about these changes when they obviously have not even begun to realize just how damaging these are, particularly to the few clerics who do not and who have never considered ourselves "healbots" (btw Sunburst also generates AP for each ally healed, and the patch specifies that only the extra AP from "enemy targets" is affected. The nerf is actually not as severe to some builds).
However, the reason I am confident we will pull through is because Cryptic has never really let us down yet. They nerfed AS, yes, but they also made it so that we no longer needed 100% uptime on AS in the first place. We complained about PvP, and so they came and nerfed the striker classes first because of the module, and then some. I'm assuming you're aware of just how hard the rogue class was hit. Right now they're nerfing Sunburst, but we're getting significantly better gear (higher damage and survivability for everyone - the higher damage part alone is going to guarantee faster boss kills) and level 30 companions which by design are supposed to hold their own against level 60 mobs. There's obviously a reason why we're getting such a big nerf, which is why I'm very eager to see just what it is about the new module that has convinced the devs that we needed this nerf.
I was there in early beta too, I remember what spending the entire time kiting everyone's adds was like. In a sense it was kinda amusing, since at least that way I could make sure SOMEONE was handling the adds (it was me). But what cryptic doesn't seem to grasp is that encouraging people to use other skills by making the good ones worthless is a really bad way of approaching it. If sunburst can't generate AP or proc linked spirit, then really...what good is it? The DP can be gained by doing other, more useful things, the knockback really shouldn't be needed (and if it is you have bigger problems than sunburst), the damage is pretty low, the heal is pretty crappy.
What's worrying is that even in light of all the above, I don't actually think we have all that much else to replace it. Instead of doing one thing amazingly, one thing ok, and two things crappily (AP, DP, damage&heals), it now does one thing ok and three things crappily...but it still fulfills FOUR ROLES. It's similar to the astral shield nerf: it's unarguably worse, but still better than the other HAMSTER we have.
Also, and this I cannot stress enough: do you pug? Because saying "depending on what your party needed" sounds to me very much like you're running with guildies or premades: people who can play well and communicate. If you pug much, you will know that what your party needs is "constant, constant healing and mitigation, plx", and that's getting harder and harder to provide.
All these people saying "yeah, s'not gonna affect me much": They're good players, running WITH good players. We're pretty much the only class whose contribution is critically team dependent. In a great team, we don't even need to be there. In a terrible terrible team, we need to bring our absolute total A-game, and the more they make that difficult, the less likely people are to bother.
It's generally a bad idea to try to make exisiting content more challenging for top-tier players by "nerfing everything", because they're probably barely going to notice: that's why they're top tier players, in top tier gear. The game for them went from easy to "marginally less easy". You give them harder content, it doesn't even need to be new harder content. It could be like epic EPIC dungeons, or something (seriously, select all monsters in cloak tower, add 5 levels, done).
Conversely, all the less top-tier players are suddenly going to find their fun, challenging game is now a chore to play, and they'll get pissed off.
Finally, to all the people saying OLOL U CANT HADNLE TEH CHANGE LOL: think about it this way. If they replaced the entire cleric skillset with one button that added 2 hp to a random party member, and that was all you could do...would you be annoyed? If your answer is yes, then you also can't handle change. You simply have a presumably higher tolerance threshold than I do (and of course, if the answer is no, then you're an idiot).
The cleric in neverwinter has the potential to be something really interesting, but (for me) it's progessively moving away from 'enjoyable' and rapidly toward 'frustrating'. I can HANDLE change, certainly, but if I'm playing a game, for entertainment, in my scant amounts of free time, why should I stick around and do something I don't enjoy?
In this patch the changes just happen to complement my playstyle, buff my build and increase my enjoyment by offering more options. I am lucky in this instance i suppose.
Yes you can say it would be better to buff all other encounters rather than nerf one. I can get behind that, but that takes tons of work and in my opinion doesnt fit with the theme of decreasing power levels across all classes.
I understand what viability means, however determining what constitutes viability is subjective. It was probably a poor choice of words though.
However my point is still correct. With SB no longer being better than everything else it opens up another encounter spot that used to HAVE to be SB. Just because you are half empty person does not change the end result, just your perspective of it.
With respec fees the way they are and so many balance updates i think we have barely scratched the surface of what "viable" cleric builds are.
I do run pugs. Not as frequently nowadays, but I still do. Sunburst will still generate lots of AP, the fix is for "enemy targets". Note that Sunburst also generates AP for each ally hit. Even nerfed it will likely still be one of our strongest AP generators, if only because of its low CD.
I specifically included "depending on what my party needs" because pugs are random. Sometimes you don't get a wizard, sometimes you don't get a rogue... Regardless of all that, I maintain my standards. I expect GWFs to use Slam (that may change, depending on how useful Slam's enemy damage reduction is). I expect rogues to use smoke when there's no wizard in the party. I expect solo wizards to use spell mastered Entangling Force if control is badly needed. I expect everyone to carry pots/kits. Then I make up for whatever else is missing: if more CC is needed, I slot Chains. By dropping chains below Singularities or after the wizard uses Steal Time I give him a bit more time to build AP. I use Break the Spirit against dangerous mobs like Thoons or Syndrith in her humanoid form, so people can then use pots to regain HP instead of getting 1-shotted. I use Forgemaster's if the party keeps getting split up. I make my opinions known, and usually people will cooperate.
It's not always about needing to heal more or needing more mitigation. You may not think so, but my insight is based on how in particularly hectic fights I can keep Divine Armor up at 100% of the time. Combined with AS and other minor stuff like Sunburst/Soothing Light/pots/Holy Avenger, if more healing/mitigation is still needed at this point then you have to wonder if something else is terribly wrong. I did use to run SB/AS/FF a lot of the time. I still do if I play with guildies - ironic, given your statement. The reason is because they already know everything that is expected of them, so all they really need from me is healing.
Would love it if Cryptic would consider tweaking other powers to make them more attractive options for the average group. Maybe a wider radius on Divine FF's heal or a lifesteal DoT for Prophecy. Unfortunately, there is currently an excellent reason why AS and SB are both almost always slotted outside of Foundry.
Contagion - Cleric
Testament - Wizard
Pestilence - Ranger
Dominion - Paladin
NIGHTSWATCH
...what?
Yes, I play a cleric because I hate healing. I tried being a GF but they heal people too much. (??!??)
-_-
NB: the above is sarcasm. The fact I feel it necessary to make this clear is...quite depressing.
Let's try and break it down into nice easily digestible statements:
That's pretty much the process. It's the continual shift from something (for me) that was interesting, different, and FUN, to something that is more like work than anything else. And I get enough work..at work.
It looked very much like they were trying to break out of the generic healer mold, and take it in a different direction. This was interesting. Mind you, I quite enjoy the traditional healer mold too, but it was a refreshing change.
What it progressively feels like is that they don't actually have a clue where they're going with this class, other than...downhill. The 'balancing' thus far seems to amount to "watch what powers clerics use a lot, make those powers worse". Occasionally they throw us a bone, but 90% of the time it's either fixing something that should've been working from the start (often breaking something else in the process), or it's a buff to punishing/soothing light, which even after all the buffs, remain terrible.
I wouldn't be so frustrated if I didn't enjoy playing: I really did, it was some of the most dynamic and engaging healing I've seen in an MMO, but it's just getting less and less fun, with no clear signs of improving (or even moving in a consistent direction).
EDIT: also, of course, respecs are stupidly expensive. :-/
I play with my guild and I've recruited people as well because, well... of COURSE it will be better! I've accepted the fact that pugging in this game is a nightmare and so not worth my time, so I adapted to that fact and gathered like minded, similarly skilled people and now it's a blast.
So in short, it's not a healing issue IMO. It's a player issue.
Also you people desperately need to reconsider what you call an exploit...if the mobs can knock you over the edge its not an exploit for you to knock them over. For all the people panicking that CN Draco will be impossible its perfectly doable still without 3 CW chain singing.
Couldn't agree with Fefeenah more its a player issue and the reason why they are stuck doing pugs is probably because they themselves are terrible and either can't get into a guild or can't build a decent friends list. Cleric class is awesome in every way and I welcome the changes because it will only further weed out the derps that give Clerics a bad name.
Dorffie - DC Faithful Dorf
Beholder
Well, get out to the real world my friend, a little sunlight won't hurt you.
My issue here is that I cannot become a mmo slave mainly because of the lack of time, and you can't really expect to be in a "pro" party/group/guild if you're not a regular, dedicated, slave gamer.
Mind you, I though I could join a guild... but at the second day of not logging in I got ditched or /deleted from friendlists.
Now tell me a tale with a happy ending, I must go to sleep and i don't wanna have nightmares.
I want this class in NW.
First and foremost if you aren't a regular player/dedicated/slave gamer why would you be posting on a forum for the game? I work full time so not quite sure what you mean by real world...have a feeling I experience it more than yourself. Also considering you can't check how long a person hasn't logged in for outside of the Gateway I am betting heavily on over-exaggeration regarding your two day they kicked me comment.
Yup happy ending would be a Ranger class in Neverwinter.
I'll still be playing my cleric for guild dungeoneering as first preference over any other class.
Ancient Shadows: Mature. Sensible. Custard.
Recruitment info at: http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?462591-Ancient-Shadows-Become-a-Lion-Tamer-without-learning-Chartered-Accountancy-first!&highlight=ancient+shadows
One thing that Neverwinter nailed is that you are in now way relegated to the slave mentality of MMO's.
Cant throw that excuse out there. There are no weekly locks, DD happens multiple times a day, etc.
I am in a huge guild that has hundreds of people. Leaders stream runs every single day. Even with my hectic work/life schedule i still can grab a run every single time i log in.
There is no excuse to not be in a guild or have friends other than you just dont wanna. (which is fine that is your choice).
I started with PuGs before i found my guild and every.... single..... run..... i did i got at least 2 friend requests. After being 60 for two weeks i had a list of 10 tanks that considered me their "personal" healer.
I met my current guild in a PuG as well. Once i heard how they operate (complete no exploit guild, no tolerance whatsoever) i joined up as soon as they would let me.
Even though i dont get the hours a day playtime others do they know my value in a group and i always get invites even if its been 2 weeks since i logged in. (having a huge guild helps of course).
This is completely false. I am in a great guild with great people and I only log on to run dungeons maybe twice a week, tops, and am definitely not a slave gamer. I did the insane raiding schedule thing for 8 years and I'm DONE.
I think perhaps you've ended up meeting a bunch of a-holes who expect 100% attendance at every dungeon. And that is very unfortunate because this game has quite a lot to offer!
Wow you so hardcore... you so l337 gamer... wow... so gud.. so pro
Hey Dorffie, I have wanted to believe this was true for a while. I've never managed to do anything but get stomped, despite trying all the tricks. Can you put up a video of your PvP on Youtube for us, so I can see your timing and stuff? Maybe I just don't know what I'm doing.