I don't know of another mmo with a gear-score based system. I thought there were some however which have a pvp ranking system and that is used to generate matches - although it's been a while since I was interested in mmos so maybe I'm imagining that - happy to be corrected.
What I do know is that the discrepancy between gear setups at 60 in this game is enormous. There is an almost perfect equipment (and for most classes character) build for pvp in this game, and if you're up against it you will almost always get curb stomped. And we all know what it is. It also happens to be a very expensive build in terms of real dollars, exploit usage, or serious grind time. And if I see it - I have no problems just leaving the match. I'm not rewarding anybody - player or pwe for the hideous results of that unbalancing cash grab.
*insert usual arguments* - "but it's not a good build for pve": don't care. "but I earned/bought those enchants legitimately": don't care. "but perfect AP enchants are just as good": don't care, wrong, and the means of obtaining these is also a symptom of the cash grab. "L2P": always, but it still needs to be fun.
I'm not saying that the huge gear differences in the game are good. I would prefer totally normalized gear with some options for horizontal progression or cosmetic rewards and a ladder.
All I am saying is that the existence of gear differences in the game is not a good reason for letting people leave pvp matches with no penalty. The mainstream MMOs I have played that are gear-based such as Tera, WoW, Rift and WAR all have huge gear differences- even worse than in NW- and from memory have pugs matched up against premades (although Tera has 2 equalized BGs which are awesome!). Even so these games enforce a leavers penalty. And because of the penalty people are more apt to stay around even if getting hammered, since the game will end soon enough and they can play a new match.
A penalty is not there to punish players. It is there to protect you. It cultivates a game culture of staying in a pvp game, and when coupled with other incentives, to fight to win to the end. At the moment this game's pvp culture is to just quit when the going gets tough- or indeed for any petty reason.
I have posted this like 20 times already, you will never get better by leaving, spawn sitting etc..
Actually playing against good opponent, and even with unbalanced teams is the best you can wish for.
Bashing noobs and winning, is yes, winning, but do you get better by this?
And if you do not want to play, why do you queue in the first place ?
Also they should make it possible to kick people once again.. It's purely stupid to have this option now disabled.
0
pers3phoneBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited August 2013
Tell me how do you get better playing against a rogue that one shots you all the time? A GF that keeps you stunned and does 8K damage/hit? A CW that hits you once, you escape, and die from that initial strike anyway. A cleric that you can use as dummy for target practice, because he will just heal through all your single-target abilities with ease.
True, some of these things are in other games as well, I only know about WoW, but the imbalance is not so harsh and after years of PvP in WoW I never felt so badly outmatched that I wanted to leave. Not to mention the deserter debuff is nothing anyways...
No. You get better by playing opponents you actually get to use your abilities on, instead of just being target practice. And it's also inefficient glory-wise to stay in the losing game. Just leave, and find a match that you can win or it's close.
Also. Big question.
Why the hell isn't the incomplete party refreshed by being put automatically on queue?!? This is true for dungeons as well. I've been in a few runs where we got people leaving right before the last boss and we were useless. Was there a way that you can queue back? We didn't find any...
Tell me how do you get better playing against a rogue that one shots you all the time? A GF that keeps you stunned and does 8K damage/hit? A CW that hits you once, you escape, and die from that initial strike anyway. A cleric that you can use as dummy for target practice, because he will just heal through all your single-target abilities with ease.
You learn to better dodge and counter these mechanics. I'm not saying I'm amazing at PvP but I have increased my skill the most by playing against better and stronger opponents, even those that 1 shot you. I can now dodge Lashing Blade about 80%+ of the time. I know when to dodge to make GF's waste their frontline, and CW's are easy to dodge just listen for the daily. You'd be surprised how much you'd learn if you just come out and actually participate in the pvp instead of roast marshmallows at the bonfire...
Guild Master of <Enemy Team>
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
0
mmuircastleMember, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 21Arc User
Why the hell isn't the incomplete party refreshed by being put automatically on queue?!?
While I'm not sure it would work in PVP (I can just see the average or below-average person looking at the score and quitting instantly), I would LOVE to see that in dungeons!
Tell me how do you get better playing against a rogue that one shots you all the time? A GF that keeps you stunned and does 8K damage/hit? A CW that hits you once, you escape, and die from that initial strike anyway. A cleric that you can use as dummy for target practice, because he will just heal through all your single-target abilities with ease.
True, some of these things are in other games as well, I only know about WoW, but the imbalance is not so harsh and after years of PvP in WoW I never felt so badly outmatched that I wanted to leave. Not to mention the deserter debuff is nothing anyways...
No. You get better by playing opponents you actually get to use your abilities on, instead of just being target practice. And it's also inefficient glory-wise to stay in the losing game. Just leave, and find a match that you can win or it's close.
Also. Big question.
Why the hell isn't the incomplete party refreshed by being put automatically on queue?!? This is true for dungeons as well. I've been in a few runs where we got people leaving right before the last boss and we were useless. Was there a way that you can queue back? We didn't find any...
You more then well represents what sadly is a majority of NWN PVP players. Just a casual gamer
You guys just have no patience whatsoever...
Exactly what cribstaxxx replied to you, by playing against the evened team you never learn how to dodge invisible TRs, cws daily, or actually kitting a GF when he has unstopable popped up, or how to just waste GWF shield and then unleash your fury
The PVP path is not simple, but I can guarantee you that you improve with every single frcking game even you might not notice.
Really, any previous experience helps to get to a new game faster. But if you do not have any prior real PVP experience from different games , expect it takes some time, and expect a drill.
But don't be a kid, don't quit after first lost game and keep trying. You will yourself see the difference, it just takes time.
Oh also one important note, the game is maybe not super duper balanced, but it is also not a 1vs1 game.
Depending on your class you need to play your role (For example, CW is not made for rushing and capping the points).
So if you get a bad team, expects to have a bad result (Another example, it's not only about each individual skill level, but for example ability to play in team and focus people together one by one)
Good advice is to join a guild that plays PVP and just do a pre-made
0
pers3phoneBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
You learn to better dodge and counter these mechanics. I'm not saying I'm amazing at PvP but I have increased my skill the most by playing against better and stronger opponents, even those that 1 shot you. I can now dodge Lashing Blade about 80%+ of the time. I know when to dodge to make GF's waste their frontline, and CW's are easy to dodge just listen for the daily. You'd be surprised how much you'd learn if you just come out and actually participate in the pvp instead of roast marshmallows at the bonfire...
I don't need an OP opponent to learn these things. It's true for underpowered opponents also, since many times you will find yourself in teams that win very clearly and destroy the poor enemy.
You learn very little in either of these situations. In my case, I'm learning most when I'm always on the brink, with good opponents that I have a chance at killing.
0
pers3phoneBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
You more then well represents what sadly is a majority of NWN PVP players. Just a casual gamer
You guys just have no patience whatsoever...
Exactly what cribstaxxx replied to you, by playing against the evened team you never learn how to dodge invisible TRs, cws daily, or actually kitting a GF when he has unstopable popped up, or how to just waste GWF shield and then unleash your fury
The PVP path is not simple, but I can guarantee you that you improve with every single frcking game even you might not notice.
Really, any previous experience helps to get to a new game faster. But if you do not have any prior real PVP experience from different games , expect it takes some time, and expect a drill.
But don't be a kid, don't quit after first lost game and keep trying. You will yourself see the difference, it just takes time.
I've cleared SWP in TBC. I finished all Cataclysm heroic raids when they were relevant content - if these things say something to you. And so on. Yeah I might be in my 30s now with family and a business to manage, but I'm hardly your everyday casual gamer.
That doesn't mean I'll waste time on inefficient methods of accumulating currency, in this case, Glory. Or that I'll stay to be target practice for some guy that has to hit me just once.
By the way. There's no incentive to really improve in PvP in this game. No real competition. No ladders. Just skirmishes between players, that's all.
I don't need an OP opponent to learn these things. It's true for underpowered opponents also, since many times you will find yourself in teams that win very clearly and destroy the poor enemy.
You learn very little in either of these situations. In my case, I'm learning most when I'm always on the brink, with good opponents that I have a chance at killing.
There is a huge difference between the average well geared pug and a premade pvp guild group that all fill their role's perfectly. You need to learn not only to play your class to its strengths but how to counter each other class and build with it's weaknesses. I learned 10x more about pvp playing opponents that were better than me, than playing those who were equal to me, thats common sense. Spend time with all people who are smarter than you, and you will be smarter etc...
Now if you're like 90% of the NW population if you aren't winning within the first 1 minute it simply "isn't worth your time" and you leave the game or spawn camp. I believe this is an exponentially larger problem than premades. If you que for pvp, you should have to pvp, otherwise you should recieve no honor and no daily IMO. the guys that sit at their fire for 10 minutes 4 times a day to get AD are just sad, and it shouldn't be allowed to happen.
Not to mention if you just play the pvp and are in the top 5 you get 2 toward your daily instead of 1.
Guild Master of <Enemy Team>
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
Now when a match is evenly matched I do find it moderately enjoyable and am happy to play…
Why argue when the answer is right here. Its right here and so simple, uttered by accident and hidden in a sea of other words, I think these few serve as summation of the entire problem with PVP and how to think about fixing it.
Is PVP enjoyable? There are only a few answers to that. Yes, No, I don’t know, and I don’t care. Where do you think Cryptic would answer? What do you think they SHOULD answer?
Pedantic lists to the side, make PVP entertaining. Arrange for the players to have some brand of fun. Just do that much. Rather than making the goal just managing to get 10 people into a big room, imagine what might be fun for everyone. Then leaving will disappear.
Rather than trying to punish people and make their days bad, think about how to make PVP more engaging and fun and then people will not want to leave. It works for other games, no reason to think it won’t work here.
I've cleared SWP in TBC. I finished all Cataclysm heroic raids when they were relevant content - if these things say something to you. And so on. Yeah I might be in my 30s now with family and a business to manage, but I'm hardly your everyday casual gamer.
That doesn't mean I'll waste time on inefficient methods of accumulating currency, in this case, Glory. Or that I'll stay to be target practice for some guy that has to hit me just once.
By the way. There's no incentive to really improve in PvP in this game. No real competition. No ladders. Just skirmishes between players, that's all.
And yet again, misunderstanding... Doing heroic raids, or finishing any PVE content really do not makes you better gamer for PVP.. Yeah, you learn how to press buttons on keyboard and mouse, and it maybe give some kind of reflexes. But do not forget that in PVP you play against other real people, and this is something no computer AI yet can beat
Really, as you start mastering the PVP in Neverwinter, you also realize that it's not only knowing what to do against invisible TR, but what to exactly against that one particular invis TR.. People have their own playstyles, even understanding each person playstyle makes you better.. But this only after you learn basics
0
pers3phoneBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
And yet again, misunderstanding... Doing heroic raids, or finishing any PVE content really do not makes you better gamer for PVP.. Yeah, you learn how to press buttons on keyboard and mouse, and it maybe give some kind of reflexes. But do not forget that in PVP you play against other real people, and this is something no computer AI yet can beat
Really, as you start mastering the PVP in Neverwinter, you also realize that it's not only knowing what to do against invisible TR, but what to exactly against that one particular invis TR.. People have their own playstyles, even understanding each person playstyle makes you better.. But this only after you learn basics
Somebody said I was a casual. I just pointed out I'm not really one, although I am also not a hardcore Neverwinter player, since I just started of 2-3 weeks here. Finishing that WoW content before nerfs takes a HUGE amount of teamwork and dedication by the way.
And I did PvP on WoW too, but it was mostly for the fun, even if we had some good results because we knew to communicate well from raiding. It was never a goal in itself, more like a distraction between raids. It is the same here on Neverwinter... I don't plan to be some pro PvPer. I like PvE more. But I also don't intend to be the kickbag of some team with huge amount of gear advantage. One example, yesterday, I was going against this team, they had a CW, he once put a SINGLE arcane missile or whatever the spell on me, and his enchant procced. I looked in awe as I was running at the DoT ticking on me, 12K, potion, 11K... So why would I bother?
You have to keep in mind different people have different goals. If I personally don't have fun in PvP (which means I should have some decent winning chance), then I quit and search for better. I'm no sadomasochist.
i usually stay as a dummy in the middle of the pvp ^^ since all the Gf make you flip like a flipper, the TR will execute allmost all, the Cw will make you unabel to move all the time and the GWF now are like little armored tank xD As a Dc, the thing's i can do in pvp is wait my end by running to each pillar for boring that player to move xD i don't even care if i get kill 1milion of time, i wont lost anything ^^ so why i have to be mad ? if people wont to leave, why they must be penalized? you will like if the party after 1 min notice there 0 chance to win simply sit at campifre? you know if the opposite don't reach 100 point, you will get nothing as well, wo why bore if they left.
i usually stay as a dummy in the middle of the pvp ^^ since all the Gf make you flip like a flipper, the TR will execute allmost all, the Cw will make you unabel to move all the time and the GWF now are like little armored tank xD As a Dc, the thing's i can do in pvp is wait my end by running to each pillar for boring that player to move xD i don't even care if i get kill 1milion of time, i wont lost anything ^^ so why i have to be mad ? if people wont to leave, why they must be penalized? you will like if the party after 1 min notice there 0 chance to win simply sit at campifre? you know if the opposite don't reach 100 point, you will get nothing as well, wo why bore if they left.
Or you could stack defense/regen gear and become near unkillable and hold a point against 2-3 players rather than complain about others OP'ness. It's all about whether you want to build for PvP or not...
When a team of PvP focused players comes against a team of PvE focused players, the PvP generally stomp them pretty bad even with similar GS.
Guild Master of <Enemy Team>
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
0
pers3phoneBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Or you could stack defense/regen gear and become near unkillable and hold a point against 2-3 players rather than complain about others OP'ness. It's all about whether you want to build for PvP or not...
When a team of PvP focused players comes against a team of PvE focused players, the PvP generally stomp them pretty bad even with similar GS.
This is a real and very serious issue. We need dual spec, and for free. The game has two sides, I enjoy both, but if you want to be really good at either PvP or PvE, you gotta commit. So we should have the ability to change specs/gear set on the fly, depending on what we do. As of now, all one can do is drag&drop different abilities that suit the content better. This is also very badly done. We should either have a larger action bar with customizable binds, or be able to switch abilities on the fly with a shortcut. Having to open the ability screen and then search, drag and drop is just inefficient and clumsy.
This is a real and very serious issue. We need dual spec, and for free. The game has two sides, I enjoy both, but if you want to be really good at either PvP or PvE, you gotta commit. So we should have the ability to change specs/gear set on the fly, depending on what we do. As of now, all one can do is drag&drop different abilities that suit the content better. This is also very badly done. We should either have a larger action bar with customizable binds, or be able to switch abilities on the fly with a shortcut. Having to open the ability screen and then search, drag and drop is just inefficient and clumsy.
Um the cleric gear I'm talking about is probably 10-15k for the entire set. My CW, GF, and TR are all specced fine for PvE I only swap out certain gear for PvP. Sure I lose a few tanky feats for prone duration on my GF maybe but it really doesn't affect his PvE.
If I had to completely gear and spec for PvP then you would have to be able to make comparable diamonds in PvP otherwise you could never progress.
Guild Master of <Enemy Team>
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
You more then well represents what sadly is a majority of NWN PVP players. Just a casual gamer
You guys just have no patience whatsoever...
Exactly what cribstaxxx replied to you, by playing against the evened team you never learn how to dodge invisible TRs, cws daily, or actually kitting a GF when he has unstopable popped up, or how to just waste GWF shield and then unleash your fury
The PVP path is not simple, but I can guarantee you that you improve with every single frcking game even you might not notice.
Really, any previous experience helps to get to a new game faster. But if you do not have any prior real PVP experience from different games , expect it takes some time, and expect a drill.
But don't be a kid, don't quit after first lost game and keep trying. You will yourself see the difference, it just takes time.
You just realized that? This guy has spent more time making up useless topics on the forums than actually playing the game itself
Comments
I'm not saying that the huge gear differences in the game are good. I would prefer totally normalized gear with some options for horizontal progression or cosmetic rewards and a ladder.
All I am saying is that the existence of gear differences in the game is not a good reason for letting people leave pvp matches with no penalty. The mainstream MMOs I have played that are gear-based such as Tera, WoW, Rift and WAR all have huge gear differences- even worse than in NW- and from memory have pugs matched up against premades (although Tera has 2 equalized BGs which are awesome!). Even so these games enforce a leavers penalty. And because of the penalty people are more apt to stay around even if getting hammered, since the game will end soon enough and they can play a new match.
A penalty is not there to punish players. It is there to protect you. It cultivates a game culture of staying in a pvp game, and when coupled with other incentives, to fight to win to the end. At the moment this game's pvp culture is to just quit when the going gets tough- or indeed for any petty reason.
I have posted this like 20 times already, you will never get better by leaving, spawn sitting etc..
Actually playing against good opponent, and even with unbalanced teams is the best you can wish for.
Bashing noobs and winning, is yes, winning, but do you get better by this?
And if you do not want to play, why do you queue in the first place ?
Also they should make it possible to kick people once again.. It's purely stupid to have this option now disabled.
True, some of these things are in other games as well, I only know about WoW, but the imbalance is not so harsh and after years of PvP in WoW I never felt so badly outmatched that I wanted to leave. Not to mention the deserter debuff is nothing anyways...
No. You get better by playing opponents you actually get to use your abilities on, instead of just being target practice. And it's also inefficient glory-wise to stay in the losing game. Just leave, and find a match that you can win or it's close.
Also. Big question.
Why the hell isn't the incomplete party refreshed by being put automatically on queue?!? This is true for dungeons as well. I've been in a few runs where we got people leaving right before the last boss and we were useless. Was there a way that you can queue back? We didn't find any...
You learn to better dodge and counter these mechanics. I'm not saying I'm amazing at PvP but I have increased my skill the most by playing against better and stronger opponents, even those that 1 shot you. I can now dodge Lashing Blade about 80%+ of the time. I know when to dodge to make GF's waste their frontline, and CW's are easy to dodge just listen for the daily. You'd be surprised how much you'd learn if you just come out and actually participate in the pvp instead of roast marshmallows at the bonfire...
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
While I'm not sure it would work in PVP (I can just see the average or below-average person looking at the score and quitting instantly), I would LOVE to see that in dungeons!
You more then well represents what sadly is a majority of NWN PVP players. Just a casual gamer
You guys just have no patience whatsoever...
Exactly what cribstaxxx replied to you, by playing against the evened team you never learn how to dodge invisible TRs, cws daily, or actually kitting a GF when he has unstopable popped up, or how to just waste GWF shield and then unleash your fury
The PVP path is not simple, but I can guarantee you that you improve with every single frcking game even you might not notice.
Really, any previous experience helps to get to a new game faster. But if you do not have any prior real PVP experience from different games , expect it takes some time, and expect a drill.
But don't be a kid, don't quit after first lost game and keep trying. You will yourself see the difference, it just takes time.
Depending on your class you need to play your role (For example, CW is not made for rushing and capping the points).
So if you get a bad team, expects to have a bad result (Another example, it's not only about each individual skill level, but for example ability to play in team and focus people together one by one)
Good advice is to join a guild that plays PVP and just do a pre-made
I don't need an OP opponent to learn these things. It's true for underpowered opponents also, since many times you will find yourself in teams that win very clearly and destroy the poor enemy.
You learn very little in either of these situations. In my case, I'm learning most when I'm always on the brink, with good opponents that I have a chance at killing.
That doesn't mean I'll waste time on inefficient methods of accumulating currency, in this case, Glory. Or that I'll stay to be target practice for some guy that has to hit me just once.
By the way. There's no incentive to really improve in PvP in this game. No real competition. No ladders. Just skirmishes between players, that's all.
There is a huge difference between the average well geared pug and a premade pvp guild group that all fill their role's perfectly. You need to learn not only to play your class to its strengths but how to counter each other class and build with it's weaknesses. I learned 10x more about pvp playing opponents that were better than me, than playing those who were equal to me, thats common sense. Spend time with all people who are smarter than you, and you will be smarter etc...
Now if you're like 90% of the NW population if you aren't winning within the first 1 minute it simply "isn't worth your time" and you leave the game or spawn camp. I believe this is an exponentially larger problem than premades. If you que for pvp, you should have to pvp, otherwise you should recieve no honor and no daily IMO. the guys that sit at their fire for 10 minutes 4 times a day to get AD are just sad, and it shouldn't be allowed to happen.
Not to mention if you just play the pvp and are in the top 5 you get 2 toward your daily instead of 1.
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
Why argue when the answer is right here. Its right here and so simple, uttered by accident and hidden in a sea of other words, I think these few serve as summation of the entire problem with PVP and how to think about fixing it.
Is PVP enjoyable? There are only a few answers to that. Yes, No, I don’t know, and I don’t care. Where do you think Cryptic would answer? What do you think they SHOULD answer?
Pedantic lists to the side, make PVP entertaining. Arrange for the players to have some brand of fun. Just do that much. Rather than making the goal just managing to get 10 people into a big room, imagine what might be fun for everyone. Then leaving will disappear.
Rather than trying to punish people and make their days bad, think about how to make PVP more engaging and fun and then people will not want to leave. It works for other games, no reason to think it won’t work here.
And yet again, misunderstanding... Doing heroic raids, or finishing any PVE content really do not makes you better gamer for PVP.. Yeah, you learn how to press buttons on keyboard and mouse, and it maybe give some kind of reflexes. But do not forget that in PVP you play against other real people, and this is something no computer AI yet can beat
Really, as you start mastering the PVP in Neverwinter, you also realize that it's not only knowing what to do against invisible TR, but what to exactly against that one particular invis TR.. People have their own playstyles, even understanding each person playstyle makes you better.. But this only after you learn basics
Somebody said I was a casual. I just pointed out I'm not really one, although I am also not a hardcore Neverwinter player, since I just started of 2-3 weeks here. Finishing that WoW content before nerfs takes a HUGE amount of teamwork and dedication by the way.
And I did PvP on WoW too, but it was mostly for the fun, even if we had some good results because we knew to communicate well from raiding. It was never a goal in itself, more like a distraction between raids. It is the same here on Neverwinter... I don't plan to be some pro PvPer. I like PvE more. But I also don't intend to be the kickbag of some team with huge amount of gear advantage. One example, yesterday, I was going against this team, they had a CW, he once put a SINGLE arcane missile or whatever the spell on me, and his enchant procced. I looked in awe as I was running at the DoT ticking on me, 12K, potion, 11K... So why would I bother?
You have to keep in mind different people have different goals. If I personally don't have fun in PvP (which means I should have some decent winning chance), then I quit and search for better. I'm no sadomasochist.
Or you could stack defense/regen gear and become near unkillable and hold a point against 2-3 players rather than complain about others OP'ness. It's all about whether you want to build for PvP or not...
When a team of PvP focused players comes against a team of PvE focused players, the PvP generally stomp them pretty bad even with similar GS.
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
This is a real and very serious issue. We need dual spec, and for free. The game has two sides, I enjoy both, but if you want to be really good at either PvP or PvE, you gotta commit. So we should have the ability to change specs/gear set on the fly, depending on what we do. As of now, all one can do is drag&drop different abilities that suit the content better. This is also very badly done. We should either have a larger action bar with customizable binds, or be able to switch abilities on the fly with a shortcut. Having to open the ability screen and then search, drag and drop is just inefficient and clumsy.
Um the cleric gear I'm talking about is probably 10-15k for the entire set. My CW, GF, and TR are all specced fine for PvE I only swap out certain gear for PvP. Sure I lose a few tanky feats for prone duration on my GF maybe but it really doesn't affect his PvE.
If I had to completely gear and spec for PvP then you would have to be able to make comparable diamonds in PvP otherwise you could never progress.
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
You just realized that? This guy has spent more time making up useless topics on the forums than actually playing the game itself