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Is Arm Pen Necessary?
plasid8
Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 9
Hello all,
Just had a quick question about Arm Pen. I was out dps'd today by a CW with 1800 less arm pen then myself and relatively the same stats everywhere else. Is Arm Pen irrelevant? I am sitting at roughly 2000 arm pen, him at around 200. If I could just get some insight, or pointed toward a thread that already covers this. I would greatly appreciate it!
Thank you,
Plasid
Just had a quick question about Arm Pen. I was out dps'd today by a CW with 1800 less arm pen then myself and relatively the same stats everywhere else. Is Arm Pen irrelevant? I am sitting at roughly 2000 arm pen, him at around 200. If I could just get some insight, or pointed toward a thread that already covers this. I would greatly appreciate it!
Thank you,
Plasid
Post edited by Unknown User on
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Comments
0. Be certain that you took into account any significant difference in number of ledge pushes. The HP of mobs that die to the environment counts as "damage" for whoever pushed them. It does not take many pushes for a CW to artificially pull well ahead of others...
1. Crit-based builds in any spec can often do more damage on trash than non-crit based builds because trash mitigation can be half that of bosses.
2. Overall, even an average skilled Thaum spec player who consistently uses Conduit of Ice and Chilling Cloud spam can easily outdps a good Renegade/Oppressor spec player in PvE if they have not stacked crit heavily (this is especially the case in High Vizier set) and/or has a control playstyle, regardless of how much Armor Pen they have.
But on bosses, given two similarly skilled players of any spec, the one with significantly higher armor penetration is virtually guaranteed to do much higher damage.
In short, they probably beat you on trash or by ledge pushes.
Note. I am assuming you have either a full set of High Vizier or Shadow Weaver. If you have a mixed set, you are already at a disadvantage to yourself and the group (I am not saying the disadvantage matters, I am just saying that set bonuses exist for a reason).
I am running two Shadow and two High Viz. I know it isn't optimal, but really all I can afford right now until I start getting better drops. I also feel I may have messed up my spec by going 22 INT, 22 CHA. He was out dps'ing me in areas of CN where pushes weren't available. Such as, the fights following the Valindras Pet. He is a guildie and a friend, so I will keep a close eye on our dps output and try to time my CoI better. I know as a CW we should be going more for add control then DPS itself, but I can't help myself from wanting to be the top of the DPS charts as well. Including in areas where pushing isn't an option.
Maybe he was using a slightly different power loadout. Maybe he used his AoEs on more targets. Maybe he spent less time dodging. Maybe he has a better weapon or a higher-damage weapon enchant. Impossible to say.
Banshee
Bloodthristy
Guild - <Lords of The Dead>
LvL 60 CW-Dragon Server
If you look at the PVP and PVE gears, the thing that is freely available in PVP gears is AP and is absent on most PVE gears, why? cause other players has Armors hence you need armor penetration but not on PVE, have you seen GHOST wearing armors, or Fire Elemental wearing some or Spider for that matter who wears armor, what they have is tons of HP, remember this game is based on Role Playing D&D, just a thought?
THe other CW is gear for PVE, you are geared balance PVP/PVE.
I do not have evidence to support this, but my build is based on this conception.
There is only one hole in your argument here AP is not really used against "armor" its used to get around "defense" and if Im not mistaken all enemy's have some defense if even a little so its not really "is that mob wearing armor or not".
Banshee
Bloodthristy
Guild - <Lords of The Dead>
LvL 60 CW-Dragon Server
Then it should have been called Defense Penetration and not Armor Penetration!
For me, i have AC 29 (Armor Constitution) and have Defense value of 4200, these are two separate values.
Yeah I get what your saying about the name but AP is to negate defense not someones actual armor which is just a visual...
Banshee
Bloodthristy
Guild - <Lords of The Dead>
LvL 60 CW-Dragon Server
Thank you for correction. lol. I still believe AP is for AC and mostly use for players with AC stats. PVP gears is staring on our face no need to go further what AP does.
Well then the best thing I can advise is mouse over the AP and read the tooltip it will tell you what its for......
Banshee
Bloodthristy
Guild - <Lords of The Dead>
LvL 60 CW-Dragon Server
Yup you're right. Armor Penetration is exactly what you said. I will take your word over what the tooltip description says.
Gave me a good chuckle....
Armor penetration,
Tooltip "Increase's the percentage of damage resistance that is ignored when attacking an enemy"
Nuff Said.....:p
Banshee
Bloodthristy
Guild - <Lords of The Dead>
LvL 60 CW-Dragon Server
Pls. enlighted us with the "Damage Resistance" from what I understand that AC reduces damages dealt to you? that is why GF has higher AC than GWF and the rest of the class has lower AC.
As you said, it is in the tooltip, Players has Resistance (AC) and mobs have little or dont have them.
Anyways, it is your opinion, as new player i could not contest anything at this point.
Damage resistance is determined by a combination of your AC and your Defense stat. If you want the formula, you'll find it here: http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?301761-Calculating-stats-and-their-effects
Suffice to say that all targets in PvP, and any target worth bothering with in PvE, has significant damage resistance. Armor Penetration is the best singular offensive stat investment you can make (up to a point, anyway).
^^
This and he knows what he is talking about thank you.....;)
Banshee
Bloodthristy
Guild - <Lords of The Dead>
LvL 60 CW-Dragon Server
Forget about DPS as a CW. You're a Control Wizard, not a Damage-Per-Second Wizard. Do you know what you get for getting top DPS in a bunch of Epic DDs? Nothing. Maybe some lame title.
Your job is to control and condense mobs so your GWF/GF/TR can tear them to pieces, and to knock stuff of ledges. Our Destroyer/AOE GWFs in our guild out DPS the best of our CWs by millions each T2 run.
Join Essence of Aggression: PVP-ing Hard Since Beta!
Forget about your destroyer/AOE Gwfs. A CW can and must do dps and control at the same time without any problem (most of the cc skill are doing tons of damage like steal time and shield explosion) so cw are much better than any gwf for pve
This. Any CW who isn't maximizing his or her dps is doing a disservice to their group. Armor pen, as many have already said, is the most efficient offensive stat for us to achieve this (up to the 2530 value mentioned above). Our best control spells (except Singularity) do a ton of damage as it is. I find I only need 1 singularity for most trash packs, to group them up. After that they are usually dead. I play with the same group all the time and we all have great dps and are often all competing for the top dps spot (although I win most of the time
MeyvnHart
Lvl 60 Control Wizard (Tiefling) - Spellstorm Mage [Thauma-DPS]
Philippines' <TANGINA MO PO KOYA> Guild
Mindflayer Server
I seriously don't get what you are trying to say here. It sounds like you are saying that damage and control are mutually exclusive. The point I, and many others in this thread, was trying to make is that you can EASILY do both at the same time as a control wizard. With the same spells. I control just as much as any other CW and destroy the charts at the same time. Lots of other wizards I run with do the same. Armor Pen is the key stat for this. End of story really.
You are so right. Makes me happy I've been playing the way I have, 'cause this nerf will barely affect me and my group.