Guidelines For Professions level 20! (not alchemy or leadership)

krisst0f · August 2013

I think it may be time for a refresher for players at professions level 20 who make pants and shirts. I am amazed by the number of people who just DON'T understand how auctions work and not only lose money themselves but make EVERYONE else lose money as well.

Ok, we all get the basics, you invested 4M AD for 4 epic tools, and maybe another 1-2M AD for grandmaster and various resources to get there...

Now, everyone want to sell these pants and shirts but when I see people undercutting the price by 1000AD (or more), it can (and does) snowball and can quickly bring down the prices by a 10,000 or more... then everyone is stuck there forever.

1) Being the cheapest on the list IS ENOUGH to make sure you'll be next to sell it (regardless of the price)

2) Given (1), you only need to UNDERCUT the price by 10AD to be the next to sell (undercutting by more than that only bring your profit down, and everyone else who WILL undercut you by 10 as well)...

3) Do NOT spam the auction with 5 shirts at once... I usually place only one until it sells (unless you need to sell and undercut someone else BY -10 no more because you really need AD)... Yes, you WILL often have several shirts/pants that will be down in the queue, and that's fine, which brings me to (4).

4) Use 1 Day auction, not 4 days! This way in case some moron brought all the prices down and you have no hope to see your shirts/pants sold for a while, then you can at least recover them in a day, and replace them into auction.

If everyone would follow these simple, elementary rules, EVERYONE will make more money!
And remember, sometime, it is better to let "low-ballers" sell THEIR shirt so that the price goes back to the next bracket...then you can place your item... Just common sense..

Same goes whatever the item you want to sell BTW... Today was a bad day, I got 9 non-gemmed and only 2 gemmed shirts made... hopefully tomorrow it will be reverse...

ohman1336 · August 2013

It's sad to see people using the finish_now method only for a profit of 5-10k, brings down the prices alot. They ar most likely not aware of how small the profit is, here's a formula you can use to see how much you will profit from your shirt/pants (assumes the shirt/pant is sold by buyout):

average profit = AH_CUT(t2_probability * t2_ah_buyout + t3_probability * t3_ah_buyout) - posting_fee - creation_cost

e.g:

average profit = 0.9(0.4 * 40 + 0.6 * 150) - 1.5~ - 33 = 60.9k
This tells you that, with 4 purple assets you will on average profit 60.9k with a shirt/pant price of 40k/150k and a dragon egg cost of 33k

parp11 · August 2013

krisst0f wrote: »

4) Use 1 Day auction, not 4 days! This way in case some moron brought all the prices down and you have no hope to see your shirts/pants sold for a while, then you can at least recover them in a day, and replace them into auction.

You do know that you can go to the consignments page and take your auction down if there's no minimum bid (as long as there's no bids on it)? I still advocate using 1 day as 5 days is simply too long if you want people to bid instead of buyout; would you want to tie up over 100k for 5 days? I'd imagine most people wait for the 5 day auctions to reach the last day before they bid anyway.

On the topic of undercutting, I personally prefer to list for the same as the lowest price to avoid an undercutting war. I've seen people who will list more and more items whenever someone undercuts them. I've even seen someone undercut themself because I listed an item at the same price as theirs. Really?

tinkerstorm · August 2013

ohman1336 wrote: »

It's sad to see people using the finish_now method only for a profit of 5-10k, brings down the prices alot. They ar most likely not aware of how small the profit is, here's a formula you can use to see how much you will profit from your shirt/pants (assumes the shirt/pant is sold by buyout):

average profit = AH_CUT(t2_probability * t2_ah_buyout + t3_probability * t3_ah_buyout) - posting_fee - creation_cost

e.g:

average profit = 0.9(0.4 * 40 + 0.6 * 150) - 1.5~ - 33 = 60.9k
This tells you that, with 4 purple assets you will on average profit 60.9k with a shirt/pant price of 40k/150k and a dragon egg cost of 33k

It's sad to see people treat a video game as a Wall Street simulator.

beckylunatic · August 2013

parp11 wrote: »

I've even seen someone undercut themself because I listed an item at the same price as theirs. Really?

Have you seen people pull their auctions and re-list them because they got undercut? Sometimes doing so repeatedly over the course of a day? Probably doesn't happen so much with crafted stuff, but people were doing just this with rank 6 and up runes and enchantments. Yes, real people, not bot-farmers, because I'd see them in zone chat asking to buy keys. Then they'd open the coffers they got from the lockboxes and post even more runes and enchantments for even fewer ADs. And the undercutting war was brutal, and the prices have dropped by as much as 50%.

xelliz · August 2013

This is not just for shirts and pants, but everything. I posted a Champion Prophet Icon when the prices where all 90k and up and I posted matching the lowest...didn't even undercut. The next day I looked and 3 asshats had posted the icons for all around 65k. WTF?!

jerilyn · August 2013

xelliz wrote: »

This is not just for shirts and pants, but everything. I posted a Champion Prophet Icon when the prices where all 90k and up and I posted matching the lowest...didn't even undercut. The next day I looked and 3 asshats had posted the icons for all around 65k. WTF?!

It's fairly comical for you guys to complain about being undercut on pricing. If someone wants to sell for less that it their call. If they want to sell for a loss that is their call. In the real world we may have laws that limit predatory pricing, but in a game it's fair.

1. Maybe a person is trying to force the price low to scare off competition so they can corner the market.

2. Maybe a person needs to clear space and is willing to sell at a loss just to get something for stuff they don't have room for.

3. Maybe a person came across a lot of raw materials for cheap and can afford to sell at really low prices and still make some profit.

4. Maybe a person likes crafting for fun and doesn't care about making any profit. It's a game after all.

There are lots of reasons people might undercut pricing. In summation, if you can't handle the undercutting you should probably not craft. Complaining about it just looks silly.

parp12 · August 2013

If people want to complain about other people's selling techniques that's their call. Complaining about complainers just looks silly.

texasgunman · August 2013

tinkerstorm wrote: »

It's sad to see people treat a video game as a Wall Street simulator.

That's the fun the game has for them. Leave them alone.

vrtesseract · August 2013

The spirit of this thread is less whining about the undercutters and more to help people who may not know earn a better profit by helping them better evaluate the worth of the items they are selling.

A general bit of under cutting rule of thumb is similar to bidding if you keep trying to have the lowest price in short times is the same as a small bidding war.

if you have a LOT of time left more than a few hours on your item its ok to be second or even 3rd on the list. go back in a few hours to reassess, chances are the people below you will be bought out especially if they undercut you buy a lot and you loose no profit plus they will be much less likely to counter cut you as they might not be watching as closely.

if they have still undercut you or if a lot more more have joined them you can then under cut the whole group and probably lose much less profit than if you had relisted earlier. I often do not relist unless im in last 4 hours of my auction or I am going to bed soon and the auction will end before I wake.

One of the lovely aspects of NWO is there are multiple ways to enjoy the game depending on player skillsets. some people are PVPers, Some people are rpers, some prefer running the same dungeons over and over, some people lavish hours on foundry missions. some people run the main quests over multiple alts, some people just run with friends and family, some invoke and log out...

there is not really a wrong way to play this game as long as you don't harm another person's ability to enjoy it as well or break terms of service. People with the skills to efficiently profit from game economies very well might be preparing themselves for real world professions. much like the foundry authors might be training themselves to be actual authors/game designers

krisst0f · August 2013

jerilyn wrote: »

It's fairly comical for you guys to complain about being undercut on pricing. If someone wants to sell for less that it their call. If they want to sell for a loss that is their call. In the real world we may have laws that limit predatory pricing, but in a game it's fair.

1. Maybe a person is trying to force the price low to scare off competition so they can corner the market.

2. Maybe a person needs to clear space and is willing to sell at a loss just to get something for stuff they don't have room for.

3. Maybe a person came across a lot of raw materials for cheap and can afford to sell at really low prices and still make some profit.

4. Maybe a person likes crafting for fun and doesn't care about making any profit. It's a game after all.

There are lots of reasons people might undercut pricing. In summation, if you can't handle the undercutting you should probably not craft. Complaining about it just looks silly.

People can also play Leeroy Jenkins all day and mess up other people's game....
It's their right! pfff...

:rolleyes:

xelliz · August 2013

jerilyn wrote: »

It's fairly comical for you guys to complain about being undercut on pricing. If someone wants to sell for less that it their call. If they want to sell for a loss that is their call. In the real world we may have laws that limit predatory pricing, but in a game it's fair.

1. Maybe a person is trying to force the price low to scare off competition so they can corner the market.

2. Maybe a person needs to clear space and is willing to sell at a loss just to get something for stuff they don't have room for.

3. Maybe a person came across a lot of raw materials for cheap and can afford to sell at really low prices and still make some profit.

4. Maybe a person likes crafting for fun and doesn't care about making any profit. It's a game after all.

There are lots of reasons people might undercut pricing. In summation, if you can't handle the undercutting you should probably not craft. Complaining about it just looks silly.

Maybe as a person selling items, we don't care WHY they undercut the lowest previous listed by 30% or more. The fact is that dropping the prices by such a large amount is DB move.

krisst0f · August 2013

"The spirit of this thread is less whining about the undercutters and more to help people who may not know earn a better profit by helping them better evaluate the worth of the items they are selling."

Thank you for summarizing my intent so well vrtesseract.

I have spent a lot of time in chat with a lots of bidders and tried to convince them just to undercut by 10 if they want to be at the top of the list. I am glad to report that aside from 1 or 2 who don't get it, at least 90% of them really do and started doing this. Especially for high value items like gemmed exquisite shirts and pants. Now I can't keep up anymore with dozens of level 20 tailors but at least I try when I see them. Hope you'll do the same for everyone to profit more...

Cheers and good luck fellow crafters!

spanky2014 · August 2013

krisst0f wrote: »

"The spirit of this thread is less whining about the undercutters and more to help people who may not know earn a better profit by helping them better evaluate the worth of the items they are selling."

Thank you for summarizing my intent so well vrtesseract.

I have spent a lot of time in chat with a lots of bidders and tried to convince them just to undercut by 10 if they want to be at the top of the list. I am glad to report that aside from 1 or 2 who don't get it, at least 90% of them really do and started doing this. Especially for high value items like gemmed exquisite shirts and pants. Now I can't keep up anymore with dozens of level 20 tailors but at least I try when I see them. Hope you'll do the same for everyone to profit more...

Cheers and good luck fellow crafters!

I love undercutting! Cash in hand baby!!
Usually I don't undercut by a lot, but recently it seems HARDER to sell items and the only way to move my items is to undercut by an insane amount. Supply & Demand and all that.

You also must realise if I list a high price and it does not sell because others are undercutting me then After the 5 days, I get my item back but no refund for the cost of the posting. You only get that refunded if you sell your item. This is why I ALWAYS price my items to sell within 24 hrs.

Can't wait to get tailoring and smithing to 20 to start undercutting people. I don't mind making 10k an item

krisst0f · August 2013

spanky2014 wrote: »

You also must realise if I list a high price and it does not sell because others are undercutting me then After the 5 days, I get my item back but no refund for the cost of the posting. You only get that refunded if you sell your item. This is why I ALWAYS price my items to sell within 24 hrs.

Did you notice in the AH "My Bids" section there is a way to Remove your bids if noone has bid on it??? Probably not... You're welcome

Given, you won't get your fee back... but that's peanuts compared to profit you can make without undercutting by 1000s..

axer128 · August 2013

By the same logic that undercutting by a 1000 is poor practice. So is undercutting by 10.

The fact is the shirts and pants sell. Always. They are best in slot. There is no risk. If they are priced the lowest - They will sell, guaranteed.

So there is zero logic to undercutting by any more than the bare minimum.

The bare minimum is 1 diamond. Never go over 1 diamond or you're ruining your own crafting profession.

10 ad may not seem like much, but it is infact ruining it at 10x of what should be the normal decay, thats pretty severe.

I usually don't undercut by even a single diamond, i just match the lowest buyout. They always sell.

abbotred · August 2013

To the OP...Quit your crying I am and will undercut and sell for what ever I please and I encourage everyone else to do the same. Some of these people on this game need to get a life.

beckylunatic · August 2013

Here's another habit you might have noticed, where the same seller undercuts themself. By 1 or 10 or 1000, doesn't really matter, but the increments are too regular for it to be a manifestation of using the AH's recommended pricing. You can tell they're choosing those prices intentionally. Mindboggling. If you're posting up three of the same item at once, yours are the three cheapest on the AH, no undercutting required. You're not going to sell any faster that way.

greywholf64 · August 2013

First, what OP is saying is not part of our negotiations nor our agreement so I must do nothing. And secondly, you must be my grandma for your guidelines to apply and you're not. And thirdly, what you are saying is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules. Welcome aboard the F2P Auction House, krisst0f.

abbotred · August 2013

I concur, The Gall of these people to try to tell us what to post our items for is a joke. We really need to get these outrageous prices down on the AH. Undercutting and posting items for lower amounts is the way forward to that goal, Some of the items on here are way out of line like purple shirts and pants.

parp12 · August 2013

spanky2014 wrote: »

I love undercutting! Cash in hand baby!!
Usually I don't undercut by a lot, but recently it seems HARDER to sell items and the only way to move my items is to undercut by an insane amount. Supply & Demand and all that.

You also must realise if I list a high price and it does not sell because others are undercutting me then After the 5 days, I get my item back but no refund for the cost of the posting. You only get that refunded if you sell your item. This is why I ALWAYS price my items to sell within 24 hrs.

Can't wait to get tailoring and smithing to 20 to start undercutting people. I don't mind making 10k an item

The flaw being that when 10 people undercut you the base price has now gone down by a lot because of your method of "guaranteeing" a sale. If someone is going to buy they will buy regardless of whether you undercut by a huge amount.

parp12 · August 2013

abbotred wrote: »

I concur, The Gall of these people to try to tell us what to post our items for is a joke. We really need to get these outrageous prices down on the AH. Undercutting and posting items for lower amounts is the way forward to that goal, Some of the items on here are way out of line like purple shirts and pants.

Spoken like a true non crafter who hasn't invested millions of AD. The price of gemmed exquisite is based on the price of dragon eggs + chance of failure to get a gemmed version + some profit to repay the investment. You'd know that if you weren't just pretending to be selling.

ohman1336 · August 2013

abbotred wrote: »

I concur, The Gall of these people to try to tell us what to post our items for is a joke. We really need to get these outrageous prices down on the AH. Undercutting and posting items for lower amounts is the way forward to that goal, Some of the items on here are way out of line like purple shirts and pants.

with the current prices you'd have to craft about 70 shirts before you can even cover your 4kk investment. 70 shirts, each taking 12 hours to craft just to cover the investments, considering this I don't see how you can call the prices "outrageous"..

Guidelines For Professions level 20! (not alchemy or leadership)

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