AoE trash... I mean enemy team on GG. Waiting 1 mil AD on Beholder.
Realistic scenario: They wont be 10 on you except once you're perma cc'd, you wont ever have time to cast it to make it worth putting on tab over a skill which will win you your 1v1s. More than that, you will get killed by people having icy rays before you even get to the big pack. Scenario denied.
Also, Icy Rays currently being bugged, it got a tiny AOE. So Icy Rays would still be better.
If you can find me 1 advantage of putting chill strike there over Icy Rays in a realistic PvP scenario, I'll give you 1 million AD.
Oh, I think someone like remorse would tell you that Chill Strike's stun is more valuable than Icy Rays' root -- which is at least a defensible argument -- and that therefore giving Chill Strike the benefit of the PvP armor set bonus is the right call.
Like I said, I don't agree with it, but he does have a reason. The reason is the set bonus.
Oh, I think someone like remorse would tell you that Chill Strike's stun is more valuable than Icy Rays' root -- which is at least a defensible argument -- and that therefore giving Chill Strike the benefit of the PvP armor set bonus is the right call.
Like I said, I don't agree with it, but he does have a reason. The reason is the set bonus.
You can have it on your main skill for the same duration, but chill strike isnt garanteed to land, in fact, it's very easy to dodge. Having icy rays on tab shot first and then casting chill strike would actually get you a 100% garanteed hit on chill strike, you would hit it more often then putting it on tab anyways
You can have it on your main skill for the same duration, but chill strike isnt garanteed to land, in fact, it's very easy to dodge. Having icy rays on tab shot first and then casting chill strike would actually get you a 100% garanteed hit on chill strike, you would hit it more often then putting it on tab anyways
1m denied
It's all about control and not necessarily a 1 vs 1 scenario. The only reason I use Chill Strike over Ice Rays is because Ice Rays requires you to do 2 actions; set rune on target or targets, and cast it again. This is a manual tasks and in the case of an assassin I hardly see you setting Ice Rays off when they vanish in seconds. The reason I use this setup is because I play both TR and CW and I know exactly how and what to avoid when I go for CW. As it stands, CW's are easiest to kill for me on my TR, and I don't even try. I am not permastealth TR, infact I go straight in your face style TR. However, I don't use any of the BS skills like Lashing Blade, or Deft strike. To defeat your precious setup all a TR needs is ITC, and Impact Shot, and that is it. So how do you defeat such TR? You "Control" which is what your mage is great at as far as I remember. I'm using Chill Strike not for damage but for the stun. Assuming you never read the whole wall of text I wote in my post, the advantage of chill is burst AOE. And a decent one at that. The second advantage is fast CD. The stun is an added bonus that I consider extra.
I love to experiment with skills, and this is part of why I like this game as a single variation in how you setup your skills can make all the difference in your character's performance.
Another thing to note is the fact that you hit a TR with chill even if they go into stealth. Meaning that at the time of casting your enemy disappears, but your chill still hits him. This does more just screw up that TR, it eats at the stealth and basically wastes at least half of the stealth because of 1 sec stun, and damage.
The only reason I mention a TR is because you are a number 1 target for almost any other class, and TR happens to love you that much more. If you can avoid a TR and survive them then you should have no issues with any other class. Not that you have any issues based on your post but still everyone has their preferences. If you like Ice Rays on tab then use it. There is no single solution to how a player plays, each to their own.
It's all about control and not necessarily a 1 vs 1 scenario. The only reason I use Chill Strike over Ice Rays is because Ice Rays requires you to do 2 actions; set rune on target or targets, and cast it again. This is a manual tasks and in the case of an assassin I hardly see you setting Ice Rays off when they vanish in seconds. The reason I use this setup is because I play both TR and CW and I know exactly how and what to avoid when I go for CW. As it stands, CW's are easiest to kill for me on my TR, and I don't even try. I am not permastealth TR, infact I go straight in your face style TR. However, I don't use any of the BS skills like Lashing Blade, or Deft strike. To defeat your precious setup all a TR needs is ITC, and Impact Shot, and that is it. So how do you defeat such TR? You "Control" which is what your mage is great at as far as I remember. I'm using Chill Strike not for damage but for the stun. Assuming you never read the whole wall of text I wote in my post, the advantage of chill is burst AOE. And a decent one at that. The second advantage is fast CD. The stun is an added bonus that I consider extra.
I love to experiment with skills, and this is part of why I like this game as a single variation in how you setup your skills can make all the difference in your character's performance.
Another thing to note is the fact that you hit a TR with chill even if they go into stealth. Meaning that at the time of casting your enemy disappears, but your chill still hits him. This does more just screw up that TR, it eats at the stealth and basically wastes at least half of the stealth because of 1 sec stun, and damage.
The only reason I mention a TR is because you are a number 1 target for almost any other class, and TR happens to love you that much more. If you can avoid a TR and survive them then you should have no issues with any other class. Not that you have any issues based on your post but still everyone has their preferences. If you like Ice Rays on tab then use it. There is no single solution to how a player plays, each to their own.
Fyi: I got a TR also.
The cast speed for Icy Rays is the same if not faster if you double tap it.
Nobody will stand close to each other, or only rarely, for you to hit them with chill strike all at once, and if they are, it's because they are gf // gwf in which case, you won't do them much anyway, if it's not blocked.
With your scenario, there would need to have 2 TR's side by side simultaneously attacking you.
"Another thing to note is the fact that you hit a TR with chill even if they go into stealth. Meaning that at the time of casting your enemy disappears, but your chill still hits him. This does more just screw up that TR, it eats at the stealth and basically wastes at least half of the stealth because of 1 sec stun, and damage. " Valid with Icy Rays
But If I may add: Chilling strike can be avoided with a roll, while Icy Rays will hit them no matter what. +1 to Icy Rays.
AND LET'S NOT FORGET: Having chill strike on tab only adds an aoe (except in the case of a PvP set but then any skill placed here will get that bonus anyways), nothing else. You can have it on your regular encounter slot for the same result.
I will end the "debate" here, I don't plan on debating much more about this or that skill. Use whatever you want, experiment for yourself and have fun. The ultimate goal of a game is to have fun anyways, so do whatever pleases you most
PS: If you're interested in my views or comments mostly on how to deal with pretty much anything, feel free to look up the guide I made.
Not that I'm disagreeing with you about Icy Rays over Chill Strike tabbed, there are a few things:
*Tabbed CS will benefit from the AoE damage increasing Heroic Feats, IR wont
*Tabbed CS will benefit from Snap Freeze, IR wont (bug?)
*Tabbed CS will benefit from Evocation, IR wont
*Tabbed CS will proc the HV 4pc Set Bonus, IR wont.
Using the above build, which I personally would never do for PvP, Tabbed CS hits much harder than IR(or anything besides Ice Knife). In "some" situations, you could see 15K AoE Tabbed CS's on multiple targets while dropping the HV debuff. It's viable, but I would still use a more "traditional" PvP build and stick with IR (or RoE) tabbed.
1. Taking the aoe increasing feats is of dubious value in a PvP build.
2. I've seen contradictory reports on whether snap freeze is working with tabbed IR, but whether it is or isn't in my opinion isn't a good enough reason to move CS to tab (more below).
3. Evocation for a PvP spec? Even if you have CS on tab that isn't optimal.
4. CS will proc the set bonus off tab too.
IR casts MUCH faster than CS and can't be dodged. The difference in damage output is relatively small compared to tabbed CS. And I'm still not convinced tabbed CS hits harder. In my experience it didn't. But to be fair, I only played a few games with it slotted because it was quickly apparent that it was inferior. Maybe results will vary by build, but even if it had a slight damage advantage, I don't see that overcoming IRs cast speed and undodgable advantage.
Not that I'm disagreeing with you about Icy Rays over Chill Strike tabbed, there are a few things:
*Tabbed CS will benefit from the AoE damage increasing Heroic Feats, IR wont
*Tabbed CS will benefit from Snap Freeze, IR wont (bug?)
*Tabbed CS will benefit from Evocation, IR wont
*Tabbed CS will proc the HV 4pc Set Bonus, IR wont.
Using the above build, which I personally would never do for PvP, Tabbed CS hits much harder than IR(or anything besides Ice Knife). In "some" situations, you could see 15K AoE Tabbed CS's on multiple targets while dropping the HV debuff. It's viable, but I would still use a more "traditional" PvP build and stick with IR (or RoE) tabbed.
Oh and you can keep the AD, I'm good. :cool:
The problem is Chill strike will nearly never hit. If you want we can do a test, ill go with icy rays and you go with chill strike, we just spam it until one of us die. You will see why Icy Rays is superior.
*Tabbed CS will benefit from Evocation, IR wont ~~ Evocation in PvP is <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> ~ not realistic +0
*Tabbed CS will benefit from Snap Freeze, IR wont (bug?) ~~ Link me, I'm not quite sure about that, but we'll assume +1
*Tabbed CS will benefit from the AoE damage increasing Heroic Feats, IR wont ~~ Basically because you messed your PvP build, you're using it? But hey, let's pretend it's +1 anyways
*Tabbed CS will proc the HV 4pc Set Bonus, IR wont. ~~ +1 point, but only if using HV, which is about 1/3 chance.
2.33 here,
Now on my own:
Icy Rays cannot be avoided
Icy Rays can target two peoples if needed
Icy Rays does higher damage (we're looking at 20k+ here)
and more
You'll need more arguments :P
Debate closed with you too. And for future reference, closed with anybody else.
1. Taking the aoe increasing feats is of dubious value in a PvP build.
2. I've seen contradictory reports on whether snap freeze is working with tabbed IR, but whether it is or isn't in my opinion isn't a good enough reason to move CS to tab (more below).
3. Evocation for a PvP spec? Even if you have CS on tab that isn't optimal.
4. CS will proc the set bonus off tab too.
IR casts MUCH faster than CS and can't be dodged. The difference in damage output is relatively small compared to tabbed CS. And I'm still not convinced tabbed CS hits harder. In my experience it didn't. But to be fair, I only played a few games with it slotted because it was quickly apparent that it was inferior. Maybe results will vary by build, but even if it had a slight damage advantage, I don't see that overcoming IRs cast speed and undodgable advantage.
I'm a little confused with this post: the 4 things I listed are not in dispute, they are facts. I also stated that I did not think that they were a reason to use CS over IR, so.....I'm not sure if you are arguing with me, agreeing with me or just wanted to see your name on the forums. Using the build/feats I mentioned, WHICH I SAID I WOULD NEVER DO(caps so you don't miss it this time), CS tabbed, when used in PvP, on a player that is standing next to another player(or multiple) will do MUCH MORE DAMAGE than IR.
THAT is a benefit. Is it ENOUGH benefit to actually do it? OF COURSE NOT, which is what I said. Thank you for playing.
I have easily taken down TR's last days with my RoF, the trick is to not get caught by them first and repel/shield them away from you. At least it works for me most of the time.
The problem is Chill strike will nearly never hit. If you want we can do a test, ill go with icy rays and you go with chill strike, we just spam it until one of us die. You will see why Icy Rays is superior.
*Tabbed CS will benefit from Evocation, IR wont ~~ Evocation in PvP is <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> ~ not realistic +0
*Tabbed CS will benefit from Snap Freeze, IR wont (bug?) ~~ Link me, I'm not quite sure about that, but we'll assume +1
*Tabbed CS will benefit from the AoE damage increasing Heroic Feats, IR wont ~~ Basically because you messed your PvP build, you're using it? But hey, let's pretend it's +1 anyways
*Tabbed CS will proc the HV 4pc Set Bonus, IR wont. ~~ +1 point, but only if using HV, which is about 1/3 chance.
2.33 here,
Now on my own:
Icy Rays cannot be avoided
Icy Rays can target two peoples if needed
Icy Rays does higher damage (we're looking at 20k+ here)
and more
You'll need more arguments :P
Debate closed with you too. And for future reference, closed with anybody else.
so according to you....I will "nearly never" land a chill strike in a match......ok. It's obvious this wasn't a "serious" pvp discussion, much like your guide isn't really targeted to "serious" pvp, more like random pvp where you try to get as many kills as possible, which is fine since that encompasses 80% of the CWs that will read it.
I especially like the part where you will "never die" to a Perma Stealth TR. lol
I'm a little confused with this post: the 4 things I listed are not in dispute, they are facts. I also stated that I did not think that they were a reason to use CS over IR, so.....I'm not sure if you are arguing with me, agreeing with me or just wanted to see your name on the forums. Using the build/feats I mentioned, WHICH I SAID I WOULD NEVER DO(caps so you don't miss it this time), CS tabbed, when used in PvP, on a player that is standing next to another player(or multiple) will do MUCH MORE DAMAGE than IR.
THAT is a benefit. Is it ENOUGH benefit to actually do it? OF COURSE NOT, which is what I said. Thank you for playing.
I have easily taken down TR's last days with my RoF, the trick is to not get caught by them first and repel/shield them away from you. At least it works for me most of the time.
so according to you....I will "nearly never" land a chill strike in a match......ok. It's obvious this wasn't a "serious" pvp discussion, much like your guide isn't really targeted to "serious" pvp, more like random pvp where you try to get as many kills as possible, which is fine since that encompasses 80% of the CWs that will read it.
I especially like the part where you will "never die" to a Perma Stealth TR. lol
I got a lvl 60 rogue myself, so I know how they work and their limitation. No, I won't die to a perma-stealth TR. They can catch me when I'm low, of course, But they won't ever "assassinate" me. In fact, they are lucky if half my hp is gone. But hey, I'm not asking you to believe me.
You do whatever you want, I'm not going to argue over someone who obviously played just enough to start to know what he's talking about, but not enough to really do (or at least, that's what I'm getting out of it).
Don't forget, the most important thing in a game is to have fun!
It's all about control and not necessarily a 1 vs 1 scenario. The only reason I use Chill Strike over Ice Rays is because Ice Rays requires you to do 2 actions; set rune on target or targets, and cast it again. This is a manual tasks and in the case of an assassin I hardly see you setting Ice Rays off when they vanish in seconds. The reason I use this setup is because I play both TR and CW and I know exactly how and what to avoid when I go for CW. As it stands, CW's are easiest to kill for me on my TR, and I don't even try. I am not permastealth TR, infact I go straight in your face style TR. However, I don't use any of the BS skills like Lashing Blade, or Deft strike. To defeat your precious setup all a TR needs is ITC, and Impact Shot, and that is it. So how do you defeat such TR? You "Control" which is what your mage is great at as far as I remember. I'm using Chill Strike not for damage but for the stun. Assuming you never read the whole wall of text I wote in my post, the advantage of chill is burst AOE. And a decent one at that. The second advantage is fast CD. The stun is an added bonus that I consider extra.
I love to experiment with skills, and this is part of why I like this game as a single variation in how you setup your skills can make all the difference in your character's performance.
Another thing to note is the fact that you hit a TR with chill even if they go into stealth. Meaning that at the time of casting your enemy disappears, but your chill still hits him. This does more just screw up that TR, it eats at the stealth and basically wastes at least half of the stealth because of 1 sec stun, and damage.
The only reason I mention a TR is because you are a number 1 target for almost any other class, and TR happens to love you that much more. If you can avoid a TR and survive them then you should have no issues with any other class. Not that you have any issues based on your post but still everyone has their preferences. If you like Ice Rays on tab then use it. There is no single solution to how a player plays, each to their own.
I do in fact read all post, however I do not respond to all of them since there is SO MUCH to say... and well to be honest I am just a n.0.0.b and do not always understand every detail that some of you guys really like to describe it what seems the most words :P But I will in fact inspect your comments further, since they seem understandable to me and logic.
I do not really have a hard time against other players... just normal I guess... depending on if they are overpowered. I can't kill tanks tho, but I can keep them off often and they just leave since they can't get the kill. The same happens sometimes with a GWF. As long as I stick with my team I am fine. 1 vs 1 with a CW/cleric I often just win and sometimes when in luck a TR.
I have bought new gear btw, just the pvp gear. This is my new set up atm. (The character image is not yet updated I see)
It is interesting how my armor class fell down... I just noticed that! Before I was 20... hmm
Also people keep telling me to quit the repel/shield. Ok well maybe it is all in my head that it somehow keeps me save and it doesn't really do anything. I need to think well what other power would be helpfull and would fit in my play tactics. Maybe it is because I am a woman (or a coward xD) but I want something that just fits me. I probably got to used to blowing enemies away.
I especially like the part where you will "never die" to a Perma Stealth TR. lol
I never die to perma stealth TRs 1v1. They don't hit hard enough. You just need to dodge a couple of attacks and create a gap.
The dangerous ones are the ones that manage to catch you off guard with smoke bomb and have a Lurker's Assault up. That can literally one-shot you as CW or DC (at least for now pre-nerfs on preview).
I also stated that I did not think that they were a reason to use CS over IR, so.....
THAT is a benefit. Is it ENOUGH benefit to actually do it? OF COURSE NOT, which is what I said. Thank you for playing.
So you're making an argument for using tabbed CS and at the same time saying its not a good idea. Any you question my reason for posting? You're confused by my post? There is no reason for your self-contradicting post at all.
A benefit that is outweighed by the opportunity cost of that choice is not a benefit at all.
How about you stick to offering USEFUL advice instead of posting nonsense that might mislead a novice PvPer into putting chill strike into Tab which almost no one thinks is a good idea.
Thank you for playing??? Hah. That's the kind of self-congratulatory dismissal only someone very insecure could post. Grow up.
I'm not making an argument TO use it, I was making an argument for why someone MIGHT use it, which is what I said. My advice was sound for "novice PvPers", so perhaps you should dial down the ego and listen to it. Almost all of the "advice" for pvp posted these days is for CWs who are pugging it solo for max kills/kd's for a trophy screenshot (that comment may hit a little close to home, eh?). Thats fine and all, but don't pretend it's the end all-be all of playstyles.
I'll be happy to post my thoughts after the Mindflayer 5v5 tournament is over. Till then, thanks for playing!
Realistic scenario: They wont be 10 on you except once you're perma cc'd, you wont ever have time to cast it to make it worth putting on tab over a skill which will win you your 1v1s. More than that, you will get killed by people having icy rays before you even get to the big pack. Scenario denied.
Realistic scenario: AS on enemy pack, CoI for debuff and than AoE with CS. Most people get at least 2/3 of their HP fly away. I'm doing this quite often.
Still waiting my 1mil AD.
I'm not making an argument TO use it, I was making an argument for why someone MIGHT use it, which is what I said. My advice was sound for "novice PvPers", so perhaps you should dial down the ego and listen to it. Almost all of the "advice" for pvp posted these days is for CWs who are pugging it solo for max kills/kd's for a trophy screenshot (that comment may hit a little close to home, eh?). Thats fine and all, but don't pretend it's the end all-be all of playstyles.
I'll be happy to post my thoughts after the Mindflayer 5v5 tournament is over. Till then, thanks for playing!
The vast majority of CWs are pugging it (certainly the OP). So that sort of makes sense doesn't it?
No one said it was optimal for team play. Optimal for team play doesn't even include CW. But if you used a rules set that forced each team to take one, I still think you'd be a fool to tab CS.
And that's hardly a trophy SS, but I think you and I both know 95% of CW have never done that. So it is sufficient evidence of the effectiveness of the build. Unless you want to claim that is the result of my exceptional skill in spite of a sub-optimal build... Your choice.
Realistic scenario: AS on enemy pack, CoI for debuff and than AoE with CS. Most people get at least 2/3 of their HP fly away. I'm doing this quite often.
Still waiting my 1mil AD.
Not bad. Arguably useful for the initial rush to tower 2. Not likely to be useful for the rest of the game though.
There is so much bad information in this thread its ridiculous. At least guys like Xavory are talking sense.
Any CW that claims he cant lose to a perma stealth TR is just showing his complete and total noobness and total lack of exposure to top tier premade PVP. I will put 1 mil AD on the fact, that you will NEVER beat a top tier perma stealth TR. PM me if you are up for the challenge. (Mindflayer)
This kind of nonsense, is why most premades get 1000-0'd against top tier ones.
Oh.. and I think jawarisin owes some people 1mil AD. I unlike him, will back up my **** talk with actual delivery.
Nonsense is posting in a **** pug's help me PvP thread about the fact that they can't beat a top tier rogue. How is that relevant at all when the vast majority of rogues are killable by the OP, even with starter gear?
No one came here for advice on how to beat the best rogues in the game, in a premade that will pick their CW as the first target every time, with their under geared CW. THAT is nonsense.
The only person in this thread with an ounce of intelligence is Xavory.
Any CW that claims he cant lose to a perma stealth TR is just showing his complete and total noobness and total lack of exposure to top tier premade PVP. I will put 1 mil AD on the fact, that you will NEVER beat a top tier perma stealth TR.
Careful, your arrogance is showing!
By definition 99% of the playerbase may have no clue what you're talking about, of them almost as many would not care what you are talking about in this respect since they will never do what you do.
All people can do is report their own experiences. When individuals tell you they do not die to perma-stealth TRs 1v1, then they do not die to perma-stealth TRs. That's all it means.
It does, however, not mean that they are godlike, P2W-geared, nightly or 24/7 Dominion pvp guild-vs-guild, laddered competitive pvp matching! Or whatever it is that you do that puts you in that sub-1%.
I got a lvl 60 rogue myself, so I know how they work and their limitation. No, I won't die to a perma-stealth TR. They can catch me when I'm low, of course, But they won't ever "assassinate" me. In fact, they are lucky if half my hp is gone. But hey, I'm not asking you to believe me.
I never die to perma stealth TRs 1v1. They don't hit hard enough. You just need to dodge a couple of attacks and create a gap.
Two of the most ridiculous, false, misleading quotes I have ever seen in CW forums. I had to go read the "PVP guide" after reading that. Honestly there is so many things totally and completely wrong in this thread and that guide, it is not even worth the typing time. Someday Xavory, myself, or another real PVP CW will write a guide, because if this is the kind of mis-information people are following.... ridiculous.
Oh and btw, if you don't have repel and ray of frost in any pvp build you are recommending, just more reason why you shouldn't be giving any advice at all.
All people can do is report their own experiences. When individuals tell you they do not die to perma-stealth TRs 1v1, then they do not die to perma-stealth TRs. That's all it means.
Nah, if they claim they do not die to perma stealth TR's, its because they have no idea what a perma stealth TR is or capable of. They have never actually faced one. Which puts into question all their class knowledge. They should come watch the big boys play sometime.
Nonsense is posting in a **** pug's help me PvP thread about the fact that they can't beat a top tier rogue. How is that relevant at all when the vast majority of rogues are killable by the OP, even with starter gear?
No one came here for advice on how to beat the best rogues in the game, in a premade that will pick their CW as the first target every time, with their under geared CW. THAT is nonsense.
Nonsense is the gratuitous ego stroking and rhetorical gamesmanship that seems to arise in threads like this one all the time. The origin of the bickering in this thread is really quite silly when you look back on it: jawarsin (sp?) claimed that there is absolutely NO REASON for remorselord to slot Chill Strike on tab. But there are two key facts that jawarsin either willfully ignored or unintentionally glossed over: remorselord either hasn't ranked or doesn't use Icy Rays, so jawarsin's preferred alternative isn't even on the table -- and secondly, remorselord uses the PvP armor set, which reduces the cooldown on the tab slot, which means that there is a reason to place a preferred encounter power, even one that doesn't directly benefit in any normally PvP-relevant way, in the tab slot.
It's probably not a good reason, but there is a reason.
Everyone could have left it at that. Disagree if you must; feel free to state the reasons why you disagree, but the bluster about never losing to this-or-that build, the grandiose (and insincere) offer of a reward for anyone who can prove a theory wrong, the bickering about whose play style is more impressive, or who should be deemed correct-by-default based on his pro-gamer resume (in a two-month old game, no less) -- all of the above serves no purpose.
Just because we're discussing PvP, it doesn't follow that we have to play forum PvP.
Nonsense is the gratuitous ego stroking and rhetorical gamesmanship that seems to arise in threads like this one all the time. The origin of the bickering in this thread is really quite silly when you look back on it: jawarsin (sp?) claimed that there is absolutely NO REASON for remorselord to slot Chill Strike on tab. But there are two key facts that jawarsin either willfully ignored or unintentionally glossed over: remorselord either hasn't ranked or doesn't use Icy Rays, so jawarsin's preferred alternative isn't even on the table -- and secondly, remorselord uses the PvP armor set, which reduces the cooldown on the tab slot, which means that there is a reason to place a preferred encounter power, even one that doesn't directly benefit in any normally PvP-relevant way, in the tab slot.
It's probably not a good reason, but there is a reason.
Everyone could have left it at that. Disagree if you must; feel free to state the reasons why you disagree, but the bluster about never losing to this-or-that build, the grandiose (and insincere) offer of a reward for anyone who can prove a theory wrong, the bickering about whose play style is more impressive, or who should be deemed correct-by-default based on his pro-gamer resume (in a two-month old game, no less) -- all of the above serves no purpose.
Just because we're discussing PvP, it doesn't follow that we have to play forum PvP.
Not only. I often see groups of luskans, so my tactics works fine. And when I want some fun, I place repel on tab and go for 5.
Ice storm is fun at 5 too. I got 4 guys in 1 shot that way yesterday. Problem is you have to get close for that. And at least on Beholder the Luskans seem to have an inordinate amount of GFs. So I have been knocked in myself a few times trying to do that very thing. Repel is definitely a better way to do it.
Thaum aoe is obviously more viable in GG. Too bad it's only once every 6 hours. A lot of tactics become more viable in bigger groups. Would make for some interesting theory crafting. Just seems kind of pointless when it's a small percentage of our gameplay.
Comments
AoE trash... I mean enemy team on GG. Waiting 1 mil AD on Beholder.
Realistic scenario: They wont be 10 on you except once you're perma cc'd, you wont ever have time to cast it to make it worth putting on tab over a skill which will win you your 1v1s. More than that, you will get killed by people having icy rays before you even get to the big pack. Scenario denied.
Also, Icy Rays currently being bugged, it got a tiny AOE. So Icy Rays would still be better.
1m denied
Here for the build+guide
Oh, I think someone like remorse would tell you that Chill Strike's stun is more valuable than Icy Rays' root -- which is at least a defensible argument -- and that therefore giving Chill Strike the benefit of the PvP armor set bonus is the right call.
Like I said, I don't agree with it, but he does have a reason. The reason is the set bonus.
You can have it on your main skill for the same duration, but chill strike isnt garanteed to land, in fact, it's very easy to dodge. Having icy rays on tab shot first and then casting chill strike would actually get you a 100% garanteed hit on chill strike, you would hit it more often then putting it on tab anyways
1m denied
Here for the build+guide
It's all about control and not necessarily a 1 vs 1 scenario. The only reason I use Chill Strike over Ice Rays is because Ice Rays requires you to do 2 actions; set rune on target or targets, and cast it again. This is a manual tasks and in the case of an assassin I hardly see you setting Ice Rays off when they vanish in seconds. The reason I use this setup is because I play both TR and CW and I know exactly how and what to avoid when I go for CW. As it stands, CW's are easiest to kill for me on my TR, and I don't even try. I am not permastealth TR, infact I go straight in your face style TR. However, I don't use any of the BS skills like Lashing Blade, or Deft strike. To defeat your precious setup all a TR needs is ITC, and Impact Shot, and that is it. So how do you defeat such TR? You "Control" which is what your mage is great at as far as I remember. I'm using Chill Strike not for damage but for the stun. Assuming you never read the whole wall of text I wote in my post, the advantage of chill is burst AOE. And a decent one at that. The second advantage is fast CD. The stun is an added bonus that I consider extra.
I love to experiment with skills, and this is part of why I like this game as a single variation in how you setup your skills can make all the difference in your character's performance.
Another thing to note is the fact that you hit a TR with chill even if they go into stealth. Meaning that at the time of casting your enemy disappears, but your chill still hits him. This does more just screw up that TR, it eats at the stealth and basically wastes at least half of the stealth because of 1 sec stun, and damage.
The only reason I mention a TR is because you are a number 1 target for almost any other class, and TR happens to love you that much more. If you can avoid a TR and survive them then you should have no issues with any other class. Not that you have any issues based on your post but still everyone has their preferences. If you like Ice Rays on tab then use it. There is no single solution to how a player plays, each to their own.
Video Review: http://www.twitch.tv/zovya/c/2671017
Fyi: I got a TR also.
The cast speed for Icy Rays is the same if not faster if you double tap it.
Impact shot is not really problematic....
now, to quote myself:
Nobody will stand close to each other, or only rarely, for you to hit them with chill strike all at once, and if they are, it's because they are gf // gwf in which case, you won't do them much anyway, if it's not blocked.
With your scenario, there would need to have 2 TR's side by side simultaneously attacking you.
"Another thing to note is the fact that you hit a TR with chill even if they go into stealth. Meaning that at the time of casting your enemy disappears, but your chill still hits him. This does more just screw up that TR, it eats at the stealth and basically wastes at least half of the stealth because of 1 sec stun, and damage. "
Valid with Icy Rays
But If I may add: Chilling strike can be avoided with a roll, while Icy Rays will hit them no matter what. +1 to Icy Rays.
AND LET'S NOT FORGET: Having chill strike on tab only adds an aoe (except in the case of a PvP set but then any skill placed here will get that bonus anyways), nothing else. You can have it on your regular encounter slot for the same result.
I will end the "debate" here, I don't plan on debating much more about this or that skill. Use whatever you want, experiment for yourself and have fun. The ultimate goal of a game is to have fun anyways, so do whatever pleases you most
PS: If you're interested in my views or comments mostly on how to deal with pretty much anything, feel free to look up the guide I made.
Here for the build+guide
*Tabbed CS will benefit from the AoE damage increasing Heroic Feats, IR wont
*Tabbed CS will benefit from Snap Freeze, IR wont (bug?)
*Tabbed CS will benefit from Evocation, IR wont
*Tabbed CS will proc the HV 4pc Set Bonus, IR wont.
Using the above build, which I personally would never do for PvP, Tabbed CS hits much harder than IR(or anything besides Ice Knife). In "some" situations, you could see 15K AoE Tabbed CS's on multiple targets while dropping the HV debuff. It's viable, but I would still use a more "traditional" PvP build and stick with IR (or RoE) tabbed.
Oh and you can keep the AD, I'm good. :cool:
1. Taking the aoe increasing feats is of dubious value in a PvP build.
2. I've seen contradictory reports on whether snap freeze is working with tabbed IR, but whether it is or isn't in my opinion isn't a good enough reason to move CS to tab (more below).
3. Evocation for a PvP spec? Even if you have CS on tab that isn't optimal.
4. CS will proc the set bonus off tab too.
IR casts MUCH faster than CS and can't be dodged. The difference in damage output is relatively small compared to tabbed CS. And I'm still not convinced tabbed CS hits harder. In my experience it didn't. But to be fair, I only played a few games with it slotted because it was quickly apparent that it was inferior. Maybe results will vary by build, but even if it had a slight damage advantage, I don't see that overcoming IRs cast speed and undodgable advantage.
The problem is Chill strike will nearly never hit. If you want we can do a test, ill go with icy rays and you go with chill strike, we just spam it until one of us die. You will see why Icy Rays is superior.
*Tabbed CS will benefit from Evocation, IR wont ~~ Evocation in PvP is <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> ~ not realistic +0
*Tabbed CS will benefit from Snap Freeze, IR wont (bug?) ~~ Link me, I'm not quite sure about that, but we'll assume +1
*Tabbed CS will benefit from the AoE damage increasing Heroic Feats, IR wont ~~ Basically because you messed your PvP build, you're using it? But hey, let's pretend it's +1 anyways
*Tabbed CS will proc the HV 4pc Set Bonus, IR wont. ~~ +1 point, but only if using HV, which is about 1/3 chance.
2.33 here,
Now on my own:
Icy Rays cannot be avoided
Icy Rays can target two peoples if needed
Icy Rays does higher damage (we're looking at 20k+ here)
and more
You'll need more arguments :P
Debate closed with you too. And for future reference, closed with anybody else.
Here for the build+guide
I'm a little confused with this post: the 4 things I listed are not in dispute, they are facts. I also stated that I did not think that they were a reason to use CS over IR, so.....I'm not sure if you are arguing with me, agreeing with me or just wanted to see your name on the forums. Using the build/feats I mentioned, WHICH I SAID I WOULD NEVER DO(caps so you don't miss it this time), CS tabbed, when used in PvP, on a player that is standing next to another player(or multiple) will do MUCH MORE DAMAGE than IR.
THAT is a benefit. Is it ENOUGH benefit to actually do it? OF COURSE NOT, which is what I said. Thank you for playing.
so according to you....I will "nearly never" land a chill strike in a match......ok. It's obvious this wasn't a "serious" pvp discussion, much like your guide isn't really targeted to "serious" pvp, more like random pvp where you try to get as many kills as possible, which is fine since that encompasses 80% of the CWs that will read it.
I especially like the part where you will "never die" to a Perma Stealth TR. lol
Bolded the self-explanatory
Well, if that works for you, keep it up!
I got a lvl 60 rogue myself, so I know how they work and their limitation. No, I won't die to a perma-stealth TR. They can catch me when I'm low, of course, But they won't ever "assassinate" me. In fact, they are lucky if half my hp is gone. But hey, I'm not asking you to believe me.
You do whatever you want, I'm not going to argue over someone who obviously played just enough to start to know what he's talking about, but not enough to really do (or at least, that's what I'm getting out of it).
Don't forget, the most important thing in a game is to have fun!
Here for the build+guide
I do in fact read all post, however I do not respond to all of them since there is SO MUCH to say... and well to be honest I am just a n.0.0.b and do not always understand every detail that some of you guys really like to describe it what seems the most words :P But I will in fact inspect your comments further, since they seem understandable to me and logic.
I do not really have a hard time against other players... just normal I guess... depending on if they are overpowered. I can't kill tanks tho, but I can keep them off often and they just leave since they can't get the kill. The same happens sometimes with a GWF. As long as I stick with my team I am fine. 1 vs 1 with a CW/cleric I often just win and sometimes when in luck a TR.
I have bought new gear btw, just the pvp gear. This is my new set up atm. (The character image is not yet updated I see)
It is interesting how my armor class fell down... I just noticed that! Before I was 20... hmm
Also people keep telling me to quit the repel/shield. Ok well maybe it is all in my head that it somehow keeps me save and it doesn't really do anything. I need to think well what other power would be helpfull and would fit in my play tactics. Maybe it is because I am a woman (or a coward xD) but I want something that just fits me. I probably got to used to blowing enemies away.
I never die to perma stealth TRs 1v1. They don't hit hard enough. You just need to dodge a couple of attacks and create a gap.
The dangerous ones are the ones that manage to catch you off guard with smoke bomb and have a Lurker's Assault up. That can literally one-shot you as CW or DC (at least for now pre-nerfs on preview).
So you're making an argument for using tabbed CS and at the same time saying its not a good idea. Any you question my reason for posting? You're confused by my post? There is no reason for your self-contradicting post at all.
A benefit that is outweighed by the opportunity cost of that choice is not a benefit at all.
How about you stick to offering USEFUL advice instead of posting nonsense that might mislead a novice PvPer into putting chill strike into Tab which almost no one thinks is a good idea.
Thank you for playing??? Hah. That's the kind of self-congratulatory dismissal only someone very insecure could post. Grow up.
I'll be happy to post my thoughts after the Mindflayer 5v5 tournament is over. Till then, thanks for playing!
Still waiting my 1mil AD.
The vast majority of CWs are pugging it (certainly the OP). So that sort of makes sense doesn't it?
No one said it was optimal for team play. Optimal for team play doesn't even include CW. But if you used a rules set that forced each team to take one, I still think you'd be a fool to tab CS.
And that's hardly a trophy SS, but I think you and I both know 95% of CW have never done that. So it is sufficient evidence of the effectiveness of the build. Unless you want to claim that is the result of my exceptional skill in spite of a sub-optimal build... Your choice.
Dial down the ego huh? Pot, meet the kettle.
Not bad. Arguably useful for the initial rush to tower 2. Not likely to be useful for the rest of the game though.
Any CW that claims he cant lose to a perma stealth TR is just showing his complete and total noobness and total lack of exposure to top tier premade PVP. I will put 1 mil AD on the fact, that you will NEVER beat a top tier perma stealth TR. PM me if you are up for the challenge. (Mindflayer)
This kind of nonsense, is why most premades get 1000-0'd against top tier ones.
Oh.. and I think jawarisin owes some people 1mil AD. I unlike him, will back up my **** talk with actual delivery.
No one came here for advice on how to beat the best rogues in the game, in a premade that will pick their CW as the first target every time, with their under geared CW. THAT is nonsense.
Careful, your arrogance is showing!
By definition 99% of the playerbase may have no clue what you're talking about, of them almost as many would not care what you are talking about in this respect since they will never do what you do.
All people can do is report their own experiences. When individuals tell you they do not die to perma-stealth TRs 1v1, then they do not die to perma-stealth TRs. That's all it means.
It does, however, not mean that they are godlike, P2W-geared, nightly or 24/7 Dominion pvp guild-vs-guild, laddered competitive pvp matching! Or whatever it is that you do that puts you in that sub-1%.
Two of the most ridiculous, false, misleading quotes I have ever seen in CW forums. I had to go read the "PVP guide" after reading that. Honestly there is so many things totally and completely wrong in this thread and that guide, it is not even worth the typing time. Someday Xavory, myself, or another real PVP CW will write a guide, because if this is the kind of mis-information people are following.... ridiculous.
Oh and btw, if you don't have repel and ray of frost in any pvp build you are recommending, just more reason why you shouldn't be giving any advice at all.
Nah, if they claim they do not die to perma stealth TR's, its because they have no idea what a perma stealth TR is or capable of. They have never actually faced one. Which puts into question all their class knowledge. They should come watch the big boys play sometime.
Nonsense is the gratuitous ego stroking and rhetorical gamesmanship that seems to arise in threads like this one all the time. The origin of the bickering in this thread is really quite silly when you look back on it: jawarsin (sp?) claimed that there is absolutely NO REASON for remorselord to slot Chill Strike on tab. But there are two key facts that jawarsin either willfully ignored or unintentionally glossed over: remorselord either hasn't ranked or doesn't use Icy Rays, so jawarsin's preferred alternative isn't even on the table -- and secondly, remorselord uses the PvP armor set, which reduces the cooldown on the tab slot, which means that there is a reason to place a preferred encounter power, even one that doesn't directly benefit in any normally PvP-relevant way, in the tab slot.
It's probably not a good reason, but there is a reason.
Everyone could have left it at that. Disagree if you must; feel free to state the reasons why you disagree, but the bluster about never losing to this-or-that build, the grandiose (and insincere) offer of a reward for anyone who can prove a theory wrong, the bickering about whose play style is more impressive, or who should be deemed correct-by-default based on his pro-gamer resume (in a two-month old game, no less) -- all of the above serves no purpose.
Just because we're discussing PvP, it doesn't follow that we have to play forum PvP.
Not only. I often see groups of luskans, so my tactics works fine. And when I want some fun, I place repel on tab and go for 5.
Haha. Very well said.
Ice storm is fun at 5 too. I got 4 guys in 1 shot that way yesterday. Problem is you have to get close for that. And at least on Beholder the Luskans seem to have an inordinate amount of GFs. So I have been knocked in myself a few times trying to do that very thing. Repel is definitely a better way to do it.
Thaum aoe is obviously more viable in GG. Too bad it's only once every 6 hours. A lot of tactics become more viable in bigger groups. Would make for some interesting theory crafting. Just seems kind of pointless when it's a small percentage of our gameplay.