Where can I find ability base damage and weapon coefficient for damage calculating?
There is nothing comprehensive at this point. You can find the "base" damage by removing all your gear including weapons. the damage value on the skill will still include your attribute bonus, the skill level bonus (I,II,III), and any bonuses from feats.
You can find the contribution of the weapon by adding the weapon back in and checking how much damage was added. Note that some weapons have power bonuses that can skew the result a bit. But technically, the weapon damage coefficient is independent from the power bonuses.
There is nothing comprehensive at this point. You can find the "base" damage by removing all your gear including weapons. the damage value on the skill will still include your attribute bonus, the skill level bonus (I,II,III), and any bonuses from feats.
You can find the contribution of the weapon by adding the weapon back in and checking how much damage was added. Note that some weapons have power bonuses that can skew the result a bit. But technically, the weapon damage coefficient is independent from the power bonuses.
Thank you very much, I'll do that on my build then...
Was trying to compile all data and formulas in a single program, but the power database is harder to find than I first expected...
as soon as I have my own numbers I'll post the base damage of the powers I have points in my character (which, unfortunately, are not all powers from my class) to help build said database... as for the weapons, at least once I have the power base damage stats will be the one variable missing.
It is interesting though. ^_^
We're you looking at the mitigated damage, or unmitigated? I did a test yesterday that suggests that the amount blocked is the mitigated amount.
I just took the full numbers, before mitigation,....even though my armor (stalwart) and the pvp armor (indomitable) have the same defense, so it didnt really matter much. I'm going to try to test again with the Iron Warrior power up,...though mine is only level 1 so it doesn't last long. I'll be able to see how much improved guard that gives.
My end goal is to see if the guard talents in the paragon tree are worth it,..if they all worked.
I'm having problems with recovery... frontline surge: CD reduced from 18sec to 17,8sec (NOT OK)
are there different constants per ability or is there something I'm missing?
Frontline Surges base cooldown might not be 18, it might be 18.1 or 17.9 or some other amount. To pin down the actual base cooldown you might have to check the cooldown at a number of different recovery points and work backwards from those.
lunging strike: CD reduced from 8sec to 7,1sec (ok)
enforced threat: CD reduced from 15sec to 13,2sec (ok) frontline surge: CD reduced from 18sec to 17,8sec (NOT OK)
are there different constants per ability or is there something I'm missing?
Base cooldown of Frontline Surge is 20 seconds, not 18.
It's only an error by myself or is Spott(Enforced Threat) bugged? It doesnt give the block back, but it say it would.. I tried it after Patch 33, but broken block = broken block and some block = same block after activating it. Can anyone say the same?
Second: How the STR work with block? Only 100% + x% or it recover block faster or what?
Enforced Threat does add to the Guard Meter but it's not a lot, roughly 20% over 8 seconds (8 ticks of 2.5%). I spent a lot of time yesterday trying to figure out how to measure that.
I have not been able to test the Strength bonus to Guard Meter, but if it works that same was the damage bonus from Strength it will be multiplicative:
Guard Meter = BaseGuardMeter*(1+StrBonus)*(1+FeatBonus)
...but again, I've not tested that, I don't know for sure.
Got-effect i dont mind. That's realistic in case of using Enforced Threat and then only small Guard upgrades come. I'm only think at that time it's my own Guard recovery - but to fast and small for it after reading your conclusion.
Then i have more question:
1. Does Shieldmaster really depend on Shield talent as passive in using it? Because in the german it show that:
Tranlated: 'The impact on consuming of the guardmeter is decreased by 10%'. Nothing with Shield Talent only get this ability or something like that. So the neverwinter wiki is right or the german translation?
2. Does Ferocious Reaction CD get decreased by recovery/abilities too like the non passive encounter skills?
3. How Ubiquitous Shield work? Because you state that combat advantage is usually 15%. But it reduce it by 25%! So how it calculated that?
1+(0,15*0,75) or 1,15*0,75 or 1+(0,15-0,25)????
First case CA is an advantage. Second and third cases are disadvantage for the attacker(and an advantage for the defender).
4. Next question! Do you know how the distance for CA is measured? A is first Attacker B Defender and C Second Attacker.
Max a - c distance or max c/a - b distance? For example First Case a - c max distance: 50 feet(not right i know it's only a number for the example). So a - b = 49 feet and b - c 1 feet so a - c = 50 feet. Or a - b = 20 feet and b - c = 30 feet so a - c = 50 feet.
Or second case: a - b and b - c every max distance 50 feet. So a - b = 40 feet and b - c = 50 feet so a - c = 90 feet CA work. a - b 30 feet and b - c = 60 feet so a - c = same 90 feet but CA doesn't work.
And here is a picture for CA possibility:
White circle: CA is allowed for that attacker, who is on that side of the enemy. CA is still not active.
Violet circle: CA is active, because attacker is on that side of enemy, that another one enable for CA.
5: The last one! How the companion stat bonus work? Give it the companion 1% of your stats or that it give you 1% of him?
Can you share how you arrived at the formulas? I'm asking because I want to understand, not criticize. A step-by-step walkthrough would be a huge help to many of us. No need to walk through every stat. Just one would be enough.
Can you share how you arrived at the formulas? I'm asking because I want to understand, not criticize. A step-by-step walkthrough would be a huge help to many of us. No need to walk through every stat. Just one would be enough.
I hope it's okay for you, that i give an answer.
For power: You have in one case 500 power, that show you +20 attack/healing as 60er char. Second case you have 1000 power same 60er char and it shows you +40. Then you have more cases in which you have other numbers, but the +x is still the same independ on which level you have.
For the others:
He possible make it so, that he draw a graphic, which have for a huge number of different settings of one stat shows different results. But still it decrease how bigger the number raise of the stat. It seems complicated mathematic calculation. That's the easy answer of it. Or you want more mathematic calculations to show how it works?
@freehugs9: Recording broken/small block then activate Enforced Threat, then open the file with every picture made and count how many pictures are used to tick up the guard.(30 frames/s = 30 counts of pictures for guard is/doesn't affected by Enforced Threat and so on for caunting how big and long it takes for Got-effect)
If i have time i maybe do that tomorrow.
1. Does Shieldmaster really depend on Shield talent as passive in using it? Because in the german it show that:
Tranlated: 'The impact on consuming of the guardmeter is decreased by 10%'. Nothing with Shield Talent only get this ability or something like that. So the neverwinter wiki is right or the german translation?
The German version is correct, you don't need to have Shield Talent for Shieldmaster to work.
5: How the companion stat bonus work? Give it the companion 1% of your stats or that it give you 1% of him?
Not sure what you mean by that. You don't share stats with your companion unless it's a Cat or Ioun Stone or you've put in a specific runestone.
The companion has their own stats that increase as they level up, and they get stats from the gear and runestones that you give them. The bonus they get from those stats seems unrelated to the bonus a player gets, they have their own formulas e.g. my Tank Companion gets 5.5% regen from 253 points where a player would get 0.97%, and 2.8% regen from 84 points where a player would get 0.25%.
I'm curious about what their formulas are but I may never get around to working it out, it's not high on my to-do list.
Step 1: Try things and collect data, the more the better. For example I have 65 values of Critical Strike at level 60 and the % bonus they give, and another 143 points at different levels.
Step 2: Graph the data and look at the shape of the curve. Find a formula that gives the right shape: in this case a*b^2/(c+b^2)=x (in practice this took a lot of trial and error and graphing random things with online tools.
Step 3: Fill in different values for a, b and c until you're eyes bleed. When I was trying to make the formulas work for different levels I spent whole days entering tiny incremental changes into the constants without getting a correct result.
So all up it was not cleverness so much as determination.
Recording broken/small block then activate Enforced Threat, then open the file with every picture made and count how many pictures are used to tick up the guard.(30 frames/s = 30 counts of pictures for guard is/doesn't affected by Enforced Threat and so on for caunting how big and long it takes for Got-effect)
If i have time i maybe do that tomorrow.
For power: You have in one case 500 power, that show you +20 attack/healing as 60er char. Second case you have 1000 power same 60er char and it shows you +40. Then you have more cases in which you have other numbers, but the +x is still the same independ on which level you have.
For the others:
He possible make it so, that he draw a graphic, which have for a huge number of different settings of one stat shows different results. But still it decrease how bigger the number raise of the stat. It seems complicated mathematic calculation. That's the easy answer of it. Or you want more mathematic calculations to show how it works?
@freehugs9: Recording broken/small block then activate Enforced Threat, then open the file with every picture made and count how many pictures are used to tick up the guard.(30 frames/s = 30 counts of pictures for guard is/doesn't affected by Enforced Threat and so on for caunting how big and long it takes for Got-effect)
If i have time i maybe do that tomorrow.
Thank you, but I was thinking more along the lines of a doc that explains things like:
1. How did you measure damage?
1a. Assuming you used combat logs from multiple epic runs, how were different damage sources accounted for? For example, Vorpal is a source of damage. Was the damage from Vorpal included in the equations?
1b. Some powers deal more damage than others for a given set of stats. How was this accounted for?
1c. A given power can deal different amounts of damage depending on factors such as the number of mobs affected, buffs and debuffs applied by the player, other group members, and mobs. How was this accounted for?
2. How were you able to measure the effect of varying a single stat while holding all others constant, especially at higher stat values that (I believe) can only be attained in combination with other stats?
3. Assuming you could not isolate individual stats at higher values and had to accept other stats varying at the same time, how did you attribute damage for each varying stat?
4. How did you arrive at constant, coefficient, and exponent values?
4a. Did you use curve fitting?
4b. What software was used?
5. Would it be possible/meaningful to create an interactive graph that allows inputs for weapon damage (min and max), feats, and ability scores?
Read my post above if you haven't already, but to add to that: You're over thinking it, you can mouse over each stat in the character screen to see it's affect.
Aside from the stats I tested different things in different ways so you'd have to ask about something specific....there's a lot of work that I've done here, explaining every bit of it would take ages.
Ability Damage
Abilities Damage Tooltip Minimum = (BaseDamage+Power*PowerCoefficient+MinWeaponDamage*WeaponCoefficient)*(1+StatBonus)*(1+FeatBonus)*(1+BonusFrom#OfPoints)
Abilities Damage Tooltip Maximum = (BaseDamage+Power*PowerCoefficient+MaxWeaponDamage*WeaponCoefficient)*(1+StatBonus)*(1+FeatBonus)*(1+BonusFrom#OfPoints)
Abilities Minimum Damage = (BaseDamage+Power*PowerCoefficient+MinWeaponDamage*WeaponCoefficient)*(1+StatBonus)*(1+FeatBonus)*(1+BonusFrom#OfPoints)*(1-TargetsMitigation)
Abilities Maximum Damage = (BaseDamage+Power*PowerCoefficient+MaxWeaponDamage*WeaponCoefficient)*(1+StatBonus)*(1+FeatBonus)*(1+BonusFrom#OfPoints)*(1-TargetsMitigation)
The BaseDamage, PowerCofficient and WeaponCoefficient varies per damaging ability, and there are some rare exceptions where the scaling in non-linear (just Ice Storm so far).
I have been playing around with TR's damage formula for a bit so far im still a bit confused over "(1+BonusFrom#OfPoints)" For my formulas i assumed this as a 0.04 constant. Can you explain a bit further on this a little bit more?
with our Weapon damage is the average between the two daggers we wield.
Nevermore@meeggtoast 12.2 BiS TR Lanaya@meeggtoast 13.4 BiS GWF Shendelzare@meeggtoast 11.2k CN mule CW
Can anyone point me to a thread/post where the amount of damage reduction certain abilities do is discussed or analyzed?. I realize I may not have been completely clear here so, as an example, the CW talent Chilling Cloud's tooltip states in part "...The third hit of this power also damages enemies near your target, briefly reducing their attack damage.." That's the type things I'm interested in knowing stats or concrete values
I have been playing around with TR's damage formula for a bit so far im still a bit confused over "(1+BonusFrom#OfPoints)" For my formulas i assumed this as a 0.04 constant. Can you explain a bit further on this a little bit more?
with our Weapon damage is the average between the two daggers we wield.
It's true that there's nothing n that formula for the Rogues unique damage. (1+BonusFrom#OfPoints) refers to the number of points you've put in the ability (0 to 3), which typically give a 10% damage bonus per point.
...I would love to see that too, perhaps you could start testing some of these abilities?
freehugs9, I've given some thought to how one might test these type effects with the resources available and I come up with a blank. I think we'd need the devs to be forthcoming with their calculations and I just don't see that happening. After all, how can a player test reduction of attack damage being dealt by a mob after a debuff?
You can't do it on a dummy, I think you'd need to go do something where you spammed only the trigger spell at a mob and have a parser which could tell you when the debuff 'procs' as well as what kind and amount of damage the mobs attacks were doing, wouldn't you? I'd also think you'd want a mob which only did one type attack and could stand up to repeated attacks of the spell. Most bosses wouldn't do as the mechanics in the boss fights (up to level 49 anyway; my highest so far) don't fit the 'single attack' principle and also there would be the matter of surviving long enough to allow a decent sample (10-20,000 events would be a decent baseline?). Any thoughts you, or anyone else for that matter, might share would be helpful.
After all, how can a player test reduction of attack damage being dealt by a mob after a debuff?
Well the first question is, do these effects show in the combat log? If you can see them as affecting your damage reduction then you can measure them pretty easily. The log shows the base damage and modified damage so you can quickly calculate the result.
If not it will be difficult. Abilities that reduce damage often also deal damage so maintaining the debuff makes it hard to measure a large sample of hits. Maybe an enemy that self heals if damaged slowly?
Erinyes, Wight Champion or Hellfire Magus? An elite version of the Erinyes heals quite quickly.
So you'd need to stack Regen gear and make/find a foundry with an elite Erinyes to test against, and a program called Auto Hotkey can press buttons for you so that you can let the test run for a long time.
Hey guys i may have missed this, but is there something like con/dex to gf/gwf for a cw in regards to ARP? Or should i still be going for 2200.
No, there is nothing like this. You want to get ArP as close to 2200/2530 as possible. The bosses mitigate up to 2530, but for everything but bosses 2200 will do. There is also the option of getting a couple alternate pieces of gear which you enchant for higher ArP and swapping them in on boss fights only.
I tried doing something like that in WoW years ago, but, it never really helped much because I almost always forgot to swap out the gear come boss time. I didn't like the idea that I was 'wasting' ArP or WoW equivalent when killing trash mobs. However, I got over that pretty quickly, lol.
I was curious if anyone had more of a break down for the other stats. I saw the calculations at the begniing, but I'm not that mathematically inclined. It was easily understandable for the bits on Armor Pen a bit lower where you broke it down that way for GWF, GF, and everyone else.
Anyway we can see it done like that for the other stats?
I've been searching everywhere trying to figure it all out to help my HR(combat) and my girlfriends SW(fury) and mine(temptation)
Comments
There is nothing comprehensive at this point. You can find the "base" damage by removing all your gear including weapons. the damage value on the skill will still include your attribute bonus, the skill level bonus (I,II,III), and any bonuses from feats.
You can find the contribution of the weapon by adding the weapon back in and checking how much damage was added. Note that some weapons have power bonuses that can skew the result a bit. But technically, the weapon damage coefficient is independent from the power bonuses.
Thank you very much, I'll do that on my build then...
Was trying to compile all data and formulas in a single program, but the power database is harder to find than I first expected...
as soon as I have my own numbers I'll post the base damage of the powers I have points in my character (which, unfortunately, are not all powers from my class) to help build said database... as for the weapons, at least once I have the power base damage stats will be the one variable missing.
I just took the full numbers, before mitigation,....even though my armor (stalwart) and the pvp armor (indomitable) have the same defense, so it didnt really matter much. I'm going to try to test again with the Iron Warrior power up,...though mine is only level 1 so it doesn't last long. I'll be able to see how much improved guard that gives.
My end goal is to see if the guard talents in the paragon tree are worth it,..if they all worked.
Frontline Surges base cooldown might not be 18, it might be 18.1 or 17.9 or some other amount. To pin down the actual base cooldown you might have to check the cooldown at a number of different recovery points and work backwards from those.
thank you and I'm sorry
Update 2013-7-2: Added the Guardian Fighter Block mechanics to the second half of post #2.
https://www.desmos.com/calculator/vjbo8ayi46
x-axis represents the given stat value (e.g recovery)
y-axis represents the bonus % given from the stat (e.g AP gain % for recovery)
Second: How the STR work with block? Only 100% + x% or it recover block faster or what?
I have not been able to test the Strength bonus to Guard Meter, but if it works that same was the damage bonus from Strength it will be multiplicative:
Guard Meter = BaseGuardMeter*(1+StrBonus)*(1+FeatBonus)
...but again, I've not tested that, I don't know for sure.
Then i have more question:
1. Does Shieldmaster really depend on Shield talent as passive in using it? Because in the german it show that:
Tranlated: 'The impact on consuming of the guardmeter is decreased by 10%'. Nothing with Shield Talent only get this ability or something like that. So the neverwinter wiki is right or the german translation?
2. Does Ferocious Reaction CD get decreased by recovery/abilities too like the non passive encounter skills?
3. How Ubiquitous Shield work? Because you state that combat advantage is usually 15%. But it reduce it by 25%! So how it calculated that?
1+(0,15*0,75) or 1,15*0,75 or 1+(0,15-0,25)????
First case CA is an advantage. Second and third cases are disadvantage for the attacker(and an advantage for the defender).
4. Next question! Do you know how the distance for CA is measured? A is first Attacker B Defender and C Second Attacker.
Max a - c distance or max c/a - b distance? For example First Case a - c max distance: 50 feet(not right i know it's only a number for the example). So a - b = 49 feet and b - c 1 feet so a - c = 50 feet. Or a - b = 20 feet and b - c = 30 feet so a - c = 50 feet.
Or second case: a - b and b - c every max distance 50 feet. So a - b = 40 feet and b - c = 50 feet so a - c = 90 feet CA work. a - b 30 feet and b - c = 60 feet so a - c = same 90 feet but CA doesn't work.
And here is a picture for CA possibility:
White circle: CA is allowed for that attacker, who is on that side of the enemy. CA is still not active.
Violet circle: CA is active, because attacker is on that side of enemy, that another one enable for CA.
5: The last one! How the companion stat bonus work? Give it the companion 1% of your stats or that it give you 1% of him?
I hope it's okay for you, that i give an answer.
For power: You have in one case 500 power, that show you +20 attack/healing as 60er char. Second case you have 1000 power same 60er char and it shows you +40. Then you have more cases in which you have other numbers, but the +x is still the same independ on which level you have.
For the others:
He possible make it so, that he draw a graphic, which have for a huge number of different settings of one stat shows different results. But still it decrease how bigger the number raise of the stat. It seems complicated mathematic calculation. That's the easy answer of it. Or you want more mathematic calculations to show how it works?
@freehugs9: Recording broken/small block then activate Enforced Threat, then open the file with every picture made and count how many pictures are used to tick up the guard.(30 frames/s = 30 counts of pictures for guard is/doesn't affected by Enforced Threat and so on for caunting how big and long it takes for Got-effect)
If i have time i maybe do that tomorrow.
The German version is correct, you don't need to have Shield Talent for Shieldmaster to work.
Recovery reduces the cooldown of Encounter powers, not Class Features. I've never tested Ferocious Reaction but I expect the cooldown wont be reduced.
I haven't tested it and I don't want to guess.
Sorry don't know that either.
Not sure what you mean by that. You don't share stats with your companion unless it's a Cat or Ioun Stone or you've put in a specific runestone.
The companion has their own stats that increase as they level up, and they get stats from the gear and runestones that you give them. The bonus they get from those stats seems unrelated to the bonus a player gets, they have their own formulas e.g. my Tank Companion gets 5.5% regen from 253 points where a player would get 0.97%, and 2.8% regen from 84 points where a player would get 0.25%.
I'm curious about what their formulas are but I may never get around to working it out, it's not high on my to-do list.
Step 1: Try things and collect data, the more the better. For example I have 65 values of Critical Strike at level 60 and the % bonus they give, and another 143 points at different levels.
Step 2: Graph the data and look at the shape of the curve. Find a formula that gives the right shape: in this case a*b^2/(c+b^2)=x (in practice this took a lot of trial and error and graphing random things with online tools.
Step 3: Fill in different values for a, b and c until you're eyes bleed. When I was trying to make the formulas work for different levels I spent whole days entering tiny incremental changes into the constants without getting a correct result.
So all up it was not cleverness so much as determination.
Sounds good, let me know how that goes.
Thank you, but I was thinking more along the lines of a doc that explains things like:
1. How did you measure damage?
1a. Assuming you used combat logs from multiple epic runs, how were different damage sources accounted for? For example, Vorpal is a source of damage. Was the damage from Vorpal included in the equations?
1b. Some powers deal more damage than others for a given set of stats. How was this accounted for?
1c. A given power can deal different amounts of damage depending on factors such as the number of mobs affected, buffs and debuffs applied by the player, other group members, and mobs. How was this accounted for?
2. How were you able to measure the effect of varying a single stat while holding all others constant, especially at higher stat values that (I believe) can only be attained in combination with other stats?
3. Assuming you could not isolate individual stats at higher values and had to accept other stats varying at the same time, how did you attribute damage for each varying stat?
4. How did you arrive at constant, coefficient, and exponent values?
4a. Did you use curve fitting?
4b. What software was used?
5. Would it be possible/meaningful to create an interactive graph that allows inputs for weapon damage (min and max), feats, and ability scores?
Thanks!
Aside from the stats I tested different things in different ways so you'd have to ask about something specific....there's a lot of work that I've done here, explaining every bit of it would take ages.
I have been playing around with TR's damage formula for a bit so far im still a bit confused over "(1+BonusFrom#OfPoints)" For my formulas i assumed this as a 0.04 constant. Can you explain a bit further on this a little bit more?
with our Weapon damage is the average between the two daggers we wield.
Lanaya@meeggtoast 13.4 BiS GWF
Shendelzare@meeggtoast 11.2k CN mule CW
Server: Dragon
Stream: meeggtoast
Guide: Meeggtoast's Destroyer Dps Guide
It's true that there's nothing n that formula for the Rogues unique damage. (1+BonusFrom#OfPoints) refers to the number of points you've put in the ability (0 to 3), which typically give a 10% damage bonus per point.
I would love to see that too, perhaps you could start testing some of these abilities?
freehugs9, I've given some thought to how one might test these type effects with the resources available and I come up with a blank. I think we'd need the devs to be forthcoming with their calculations and I just don't see that happening. After all, how can a player test reduction of attack damage being dealt by a mob after a debuff?
You can't do it on a dummy, I think you'd need to go do something where you spammed only the trigger spell at a mob and have a parser which could tell you when the debuff 'procs' as well as what kind and amount of damage the mobs attacks were doing, wouldn't you? I'd also think you'd want a mob which only did one type attack and could stand up to repeated attacks of the spell. Most bosses wouldn't do as the mechanics in the boss fights (up to level 49 anyway; my highest so far) don't fit the 'single attack' principle and also there would be the matter of surviving long enough to allow a decent sample (10-20,000 events would be a decent baseline?). Any thoughts you, or anyone else for that matter, might share would be helpful.
Well the first question is, do these effects show in the combat log? If you can see them as affecting your damage reduction then you can measure them pretty easily. The log shows the base damage and modified damage so you can quickly calculate the result.
If not it will be difficult. Abilities that reduce damage often also deal damage so maintaining the debuff makes it hard to measure a large sample of hits. Maybe an enemy that self heals if damaged slowly?
Erinyes, Wight Champion or Hellfire Magus? An elite version of the Erinyes heals quite quickly.
So you'd need to stack Regen gear and make/find a foundry with an elite Erinyes to test against, and a program called Auto Hotkey can press buttons for you so that you can let the test run for a long time.
What the other 3 lines on this graph, also could someone run a graph for us that are not so mathematically inclined?
Thanks
No, there is nothing like this. You want to get ArP as close to 2200/2530 as possible. The bosses mitigate up to 2530, but for everything but bosses 2200 will do. There is also the option of getting a couple alternate pieces of gear which you enchant for higher ArP and swapping them in on boss fights only.
I tried doing something like that in WoW years ago, but, it never really helped much because I almost always forgot to swap out the gear come boss time. I didn't like the idea that I was 'wasting' ArP or WoW equivalent when killing trash mobs. However, I got over that pretty quickly, lol.
Anyway we can see it done like that for the other stats?
I've been searching everywhere trying to figure it all out to help my HR(combat) and my girlfriends SW(fury) and mine(temptation)
Thanks for this information here though!