For one thing, it doesn't take anywhere near a long time to level a new character in this game.
You'll notice how they used WoW as an example of a game that works in this way, and they've managed to add new classes and have multiple classes that can fill the same role. Huh. It's almost like every outside example you try using goes against the point you're trying to make.
Leveling a character from 1-60 is not even a faction of the time you spend gearing your character, learning how that character functions in a dungeon environment, etc. Heck I've leveled THREE characters from 1 to 60 in less time than it took to gear my ONE character.
You go on and on about this "History repeats." nonsense but you seem to be out of touch when it comes to modern mmos. I think you need to understand more about mmo history before you lecture people on "keeping in touch with history."
LOL! Now that just makes me laugh! Obviously history will repeat itself and the path of least resistance will repeat over an over...
As far as what will make me take a devote cleric over a warpriest if say the fights I was going into a warpriest is a advantage? Skill.
I'd rather have a good DC than a meh warpriest. I think people weigh too much on gearscores and optimum builds that they forget that no skill will get you killed faster than 1000pt GS difference. I'd rather have a person who's great to play with and knows what to do and how to do it than someone who doesn't know how to play and makes everyone miserable.
This is, after all, about having fun.
This was the official warcry of World of Warcraft developers a couple years back, "Bring the player not the class!" That statement has come back to burn them time after time...
They need to add both classes and new paragon paths. 4e demands more paths as well as classes. End of story.
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gummibear2Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 31Arc User
edited June 2013
You know you can have classes in the same role that are good at it in DIFFERENT ways, with healers ex.: Healer class A, might be very good at a moments notice to put out huge spike heals to counter dmg spikes from enemies, but have quite long cd's on said heals, thus meaning there be some downtimes in his healing, where Healer class B, would be able to almost keep healing 24/7 but healing a bit less at a time but healing constantly. This would mean with a healer class A the rest of the party would need to be careful to not take too much dmg all the time, though taking a hit now and they if it means you get a hit back in that time as well is okay, where if you had healer class B, you need to block/evade those scarry hard hitters, or your healer would be hard pressed to get you filled up again, but being hit by small constant streams of dmg doesn't matter much.
Like that you have 2 healing classes neither is better than the other generally, but the group as a whole need to adapth how they play depending on which class they get
LOL! Now that just makes me laugh! Obviously history will repeat itself and the path of least resistance will repeat over an over...
Of course history will repeat over and over. Which is why they're introducing new classes. It's helped liven up many mmo's in the past and increase player base so it's the smart choice as history has proven. By saying you don't understand the history of mmo's I'm not saying "History won't repeat." I'm saying you obviously don't know how beneficial it is to release new classes and how much they have improved a game. A company would be foolish to not introduce new classes. It would be downright stupid.
This was the official warcry of World of Warcraft developers a couple years back, "Bring the player not the class!" That statement has come back to burn them time after time...
Honestly it wasn't the warcry that burned Blizzard, it was the fact they never followed through with it. They touted making a game for every class and caved in and made a game for every player.
There needs to be skills checks and a hierarchy of skill or there's really no reason to progress or improve yourself. You get that when classes are equal but competitive. You don't when a 5 year old can beat the keyboard with her dolly and score tier 13 gear.
This thread is moot. They have already stated they will be adding many more classes. There are only so many established roles in MMORPGs. Inevitably, there will be more than one class that fills each of those roles.
This was known, or should have been known, by players before they started with the game, through researching the game to see if it would be of interest. They aren't going to change their decision to do that now, as it part of their long-term plan.
I like this game and want to play it, but something bothers me about having an entire microtransaction system set up and calling the game 'live' when there is absolutely no diversity in the way you build your characters. I was really excited to hit 30 and choose a path before I realized I could only choose one, and it was the one I had no interest in. In a genre where diversity and customizability is huge, this game is sorely lacking in it and that is a shame, because this is otherwise a pretty fun game to play.
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dreorgMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 3Arc User
Value is subjective. The existence of more classes increases the potential for attracting the interest of players who might be interested in paying for either the class, or for general in game goods while playing the class.
I, for example, won't pay for this game without the inclusion of a Ranger class. I am sure that there are others out there who will spend money, or perhaps more money, if they have the option to play a class that they desire.
This is D&D. The game will have more classes. Get ready for it. That's probably not even up for debate.
I would like to see new paragon paths as well. Revamp how roles and builds are managed and monetized (sell slots, lower the cost of respecs). Keep refining and polishing paragon feat trees. They need to have better identity.
I would like to see: ranger (archer and 2wf), druid, psion, and bards added.
0
realboMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Well here is a question for the OP. Have you even played 4e at all. Because it seems you don't from your responses.
Each of the Leader classes, Cleric, Shaman, Ardent,Warlord,Bard, Runepriest and Artificer each have their style of play, mechanics and an area they are good at, some are good for group healing, some for single target, some are good at removing debuffs and others buffing. Each Leader is designed to work well with certain class combinations.
You can't min/max too much without building for a certain party. So long as you have a Defender,Leader,Controller and Striker you can deal with anything.
For those not familiar with 4e the Leader is the healer/support, Defender is the tank, Controller is AoE and battlefield control and Striker is DPS.
0
khadictMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited June 2013
Normal D&D has tons of races, classes, etc, if they want to add more if each they will, and they have already stated that new Paragon Paths will be added in time.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
0
khadictMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Some people just prefer form over function. I personally dislike divine classes so I tend to never play them even in PnP. Now throw in Psionic or Primal leaders and I'd be much more interested in rolling a healer. I think the game needs both classes and more paragon paths. Though I'd say that more classes would be my more immediate choice.
As to the question earlier if someone would pick vanity over mechanical efficiency I can personally answer, yes. For example in FFXI I decided early on to play the race that was the least suited for being a caster and went solidly caster with it.
Other things to note Druid is a controller and not a leader. Other leader classes are Shaman for the primal powers, Warlord for martial, Ardent for psionics and Bard for arcane.
A party in the game Elsword can only have a maximum of 4 players. They have 6 different character with 3 different job paths each. They've even come out with another character on the Korean version, to bring it up to 7 total characters.
By the OP's opinion, we could assume Elsword would have failed and died off by now. This isn't the case.
They are adding solo content. Some people like to solo. Some like to group. Some like to pvp. Most feat trees offer improvements to either solo, pvp, or group play. What we need is more paragon paths to further enchance such play types as what we have currently are dungeon enhancing paragon paths that come with pvp passives.
Also the GWF destroyer path using reaping strike will out dps anything in a group setting. Reaping strike will hit up to five targets on a crit for anywhere between 10k-25k damage. With semi descent gear. The three abilities Roar, Battle Fury, and Takedown. Allow control and give perfect opportunity to use Reaping Strike. Battle Fury maintains stacks when moving out of red and adding a dps boost. Instigator is pvp/solo dps and may work very well for better striker dps with mass amounts of power. Better for solo dps as damage does not need to be built up over time with stacks or charges.
Different classes with different bonuses and feat trees and gear synergize better with others. So having more classes and trees make it possible for five friends or guildies to come up with strategies and builds that synergize well with others. Therefore having more classes makes more possibilities for this. There may be a day when they have raids that requires tanks to take the enhanced tank specs or more difficult content preventing the use of a dps spec from being useful outside solo content or pvp.
We could use a ranged striker. Duel wield aoe sword chain armor dps as we have seen on the drow and other npcs. I would like to see a dps plate class sword and shield paladin with shield stun or damage bash mechanic. It could have multiple feat trees for either different weapon selections or enhancing dps, divine spell damage abilities, or enchancing healing with dps/defense buffing as a leader group role. Healing in the form of either one encounter ability and or a lay on hands daily. I would like to see the equivalent Shadowknight type class with same type of weapon plate setup that uses spell damage, life steal, or weapon dps. Which could come with feats that improve spell damage encounters and abilities. Self healing survival or enhancing physical dps.
Neverwinter's group size if five characters and if you create a new class either that class would be completely optional (which would be viewed as useless by the players) or required (and would by necessity replace an existing class from the group).
They can just make it 6... or what ever they want to.
Why would anyone play a rogue if you can do nearly the same damage from range? Being in melee is more difficult as you have to move around more, expose yourself to more area effect damage, etc. Seriously why would anyone play a rogue?
That's exactly why I like playing a Rogue, and I'll keep doing it even when they add a new class. I could play a ranged class and stand safely in the background, but where's the fun in that? Earlier today, I ran a dungeon with three CWs and one DC, and it was the most fun I've had in a while in the game. It was quite challenging at times, especially some bosses as we didn't have any tanks. But again, that's exactly why it was fun. A game with no challenge is incredibly boring.
TOR must have made some changes since I played it last... When I played there were eight classes total, four on each faction (Republic & Sith) Trooper/Bounty Hunter, Smuggler/Imperial Agent, Jedi Knight/Sith Warrior and Jedi Counsular/Sith Inquisitor. The four classes were cosmetic clones of each other.
Actually, SW:TOR has 16 classes in total. The eight ones you mentioned are just the core classes, but they branch out into two advanced classes each early on. It might not seem like much, but a Sith Inquisitor branch out into Sith Assassin and Sith Sorceror, for instance. They are very, very different classes. The assassin is a melee-thingy that can function as a tank, and the sorceror is a ranged class.
But anyway, my two cents: When I pick my character, I always pick the smaller races. Halfling and dwarf here, Hobbit in LotRO, Asura in Guild Wars 2, and so on. I don't care what stats they have, or what classes they can be. I go for looks first, usefulness second. The same goes for the class. I want a class that's fun to play, and not the 'best' one. Is a GF better than a GWF? So what? I think the GWF is a lot more fun to play. There's alwyas someone else ready to fill up the tank-spot, which leaves me to the DPS spot. Oh, sure, maybe the TR is a better DPSer, but who cares? Killing an enemy might take me a bit longer, but I'm having a heck of a lot of fun doing it. Also, if the DC is any use, we will easily survive anyway. If I wanted a game where I can just click on an enemy to kill it, I'd play Diablo.
Why are some of you so obsessed over efficiency? Whatever happened to having fun? I can't wait until the Fury of the Feywild is launch, so I get to play my Moon Elf. Yes, there are Wood Elves and Half-elves already, and we're getting Sun Elves with FotF. Then there's the Menzo-elves for some of you, and we're getting Drow later. But so what? I want my Moon Elf. Not because it's the 'best' elf class, or that it's this or that. I like how it looks, and that's good enough for me.
Besides, it doesn't matter how great or bad your character is. It all depends on the player behind it. You can have the best character in the game stat-wise, but if you suck as a player, it won't help you at all. Likewise, you can have a rather mediocre character stat-wise, and yet be one of the best players in a group if you really know how to play your character. And last I checked, we don't have stats on us players.
I think there needs to be a tank that more people enjoy playing, like a Paladin or something. I know it's just conjecture but I feel that GF is the least played class.
I think there needs to be a tank that more people enjoy playing, like a Paladin or something. I know it's just conjecture but I feel that GF is the least played class.
I would love to play a Paladin myself but I think that they should first focus on making the GF more enjoyable to play before adding new classes.
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t3hpzMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 3Arc User
edited July 2013
They cant focus on paragon paths because they already screwed that up with the GF and GWF. Both of those are essentially paths of the Fighter in 4e. What they should do is have the base class, than you choose your initial path (IE GF, or GWF) than you go from there. That way they could add Paragon Paths. Plus those Paths arent really even new classes, they had some different stats and some variation of skills and thats about it.
They cant focus on paragon paths because they already screwed that up with the GF and GWF. Both of those are essentially paths of the Fighter in 4e. What they should do is have the base class, than you choose your initial path (IE GF, or GWF) than you go from there. That way they could add Paragon Paths. Plus those Paths arent really even new classes, they had some different stats and some variation of skills and thats about it.
+1
I completely agree that GF and GWF should have been one class with two different paragon paths.
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fathomfulMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 207Bounty Hunter
edited July 2013
ahhhh you are looking @ dungeons and dragons with WoW colored glasses.
Of course there will be a part of the population that will want to number crunch and only have the most optimal party there could be. That cannot be avoided because this is a MMO.
The majority of the population wont care because they like the class due to flavor, or playing it forever in DnD, or whatever.
Seriously the major difference between this game and other MMO's and the reason i think it will stick around for quite a while is such a large existing lore and player base that see above and beyond pure statistical superiority.
If there was another healer besides cleric i would still run a cleric because i have always played clerics. If the next healers is cool i may level one just because i always play healers. Heck even if that new healer is better numerically i may still play cleric just because the playstyle.
Etc, etc, etc.
There are more people interested in lore/vanity/playstyle than there are pure number crunching i must make a half halfing archer with brown hair that has the spider pet and worships the god of toilets because it is min/max superior compared to the non half halfling archer with brown hair that has the spider pet and worships the god of toilets.
I Played in Beta of this Game... A GWF, I still do. I Enjoyed it, Can't Stand playing the GF.
I Prefer playing Powertech Tank in Swtor... Even though at 50 I'm kinda Squishy compared to Juggernaughts.
I Would Play Warlock, Ranger or Warlord... (definatly Warlord) even if they were non-competative compared to other classes.
Just Because you can't Believe it... Doesn't mean it's not worth doing.
I also would like more choice in Paragon Paths and also Classes. Nothing Says they NEED TO BE NOW, just aslong as they come... DnD is big enough that Clone classes shouldn't be that common. Yes at the end of the day all your doing is making a number on the Screen Build until your Numbers beats the Other Number (or the other number runs out) but that what Astecics are for.
Diplomancy: Sometimes "I hit it with my Axe" is the only Answer.
A Challenge is something interesting and awkward until you beat it... then it's called "Repetative"
Comments
Leveling a character from 1-60 is not even a faction of the time you spend gearing your character, learning how that character functions in a dungeon environment, etc. Heck I've leveled THREE characters from 1 to 60 in less time than it took to gear my ONE character.
LOL! Now that just makes me laugh! Obviously history will repeat itself and the path of least resistance will repeat over an over...
This was the official warcry of World of Warcraft developers a couple years back, "Bring the player not the class!" That statement has come back to burn them time after time...
Like that you have 2 healing classes neither is better than the other generally, but the group as a whole need to adapth how they play depending on which class they get
Of course history will repeat over and over. Which is why they're introducing new classes. It's helped liven up many mmo's in the past and increase player base so it's the smart choice as history has proven. By saying you don't understand the history of mmo's I'm not saying "History won't repeat." I'm saying you obviously don't know how beneficial it is to release new classes and how much they have improved a game. A company would be foolish to not introduce new classes. It would be downright stupid.
Honestly it wasn't the warcry that burned Blizzard, it was the fact they never followed through with it. They touted making a game for every class and caved in and made a game for every player.
There needs to be skills checks and a hierarchy of skill or there's really no reason to progress or improve yourself. You get that when classes are equal but competitive. You don't when a 5 year old can beat the keyboard with her dolly and score tier 13 gear.
This was known, or should have been known, by players before they started with the game, through researching the game to see if it would be of interest. They aren't going to change their decision to do that now, as it part of their long-term plan.
This is a point you keep making.
It is incorrect.
Value is subjective. The existence of more classes increases the potential for attracting the interest of players who might be interested in paying for either the class, or for general in game goods while playing the class.
I, for example, won't pay for this game without the inclusion of a Ranger class. I am sure that there are others out there who will spend money, or perhaps more money, if they have the option to play a class that they desire.
'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.
I would like to see new paragon paths as well. Revamp how roles and builds are managed and monetized (sell slots, lower the cost of respecs). Keep refining and polishing paragon feat trees. They need to have better identity.
I would like to see: ranger (archer and 2wf), druid, psion, and bards added.
Each of the Leader classes, Cleric, Shaman, Ardent,Warlord,Bard, Runepriest and Artificer each have their style of play, mechanics and an area they are good at, some are good for group healing, some for single target, some are good at removing debuffs and others buffing. Each Leader is designed to work well with certain class combinations.
You can't min/max too much without building for a certain party. So long as you have a Defender,Leader,Controller and Striker you can deal with anything.
For those not familiar with 4e the Leader is the healer/support, Defender is the tank, Controller is AoE and battlefield control and Striker is DPS.
This, I totally agree with.
As to the question earlier if someone would pick vanity over mechanical efficiency I can personally answer, yes. For example in FFXI I decided early on to play the race that was the least suited for being a caster and went solidly caster with it.
Other things to note Druid is a controller and not a leader. Other leader classes are Shaman for the primal powers, Warlord for martial, Ardent for psionics and Bard for arcane.
By the OP's opinion, we could assume Elsword would have failed and died off by now. This isn't the case.
plzz give a good reward to this guy
Also the GWF destroyer path using reaping strike will out dps anything in a group setting. Reaping strike will hit up to five targets on a crit for anywhere between 10k-25k damage. With semi descent gear. The three abilities Roar, Battle Fury, and Takedown. Allow control and give perfect opportunity to use Reaping Strike. Battle Fury maintains stacks when moving out of red and adding a dps boost. Instigator is pvp/solo dps and may work very well for better striker dps with mass amounts of power. Better for solo dps as damage does not need to be built up over time with stacks or charges.
Different classes with different bonuses and feat trees and gear synergize better with others. So having more classes and trees make it possible for five friends or guildies to come up with strategies and builds that synergize well with others. Therefore having more classes makes more possibilities for this. There may be a day when they have raids that requires tanks to take the enhanced tank specs or more difficult content preventing the use of a dps spec from being useful outside solo content or pvp.
We could use a ranged striker. Duel wield aoe sword chain armor dps as we have seen on the drow and other npcs. I would like to see a dps plate class sword and shield paladin with shield stun or damage bash mechanic. It could have multiple feat trees for either different weapon selections or enhancing dps, divine spell damage abilities, or enchancing healing with dps/defense buffing as a leader group role. Healing in the form of either one encounter ability and or a lay on hands daily. I would like to see the equivalent Shadowknight type class with same type of weapon plate setup that uses spell damage, life steal, or weapon dps. Which could come with feats that improve spell damage encounters and abilities. Self healing survival or enhancing physical dps.
They can just make it 6... or what ever they want to.
Actually, SW:TOR has 16 classes in total. The eight ones you mentioned are just the core classes, but they branch out into two advanced classes each early on. It might not seem like much, but a Sith Inquisitor branch out into Sith Assassin and Sith Sorceror, for instance. They are very, very different classes. The assassin is a melee-thingy that can function as a tank, and the sorceror is a ranged class.
But anyway, my two cents: When I pick my character, I always pick the smaller races. Halfling and dwarf here, Hobbit in LotRO, Asura in Guild Wars 2, and so on. I don't care what stats they have, or what classes they can be. I go for looks first, usefulness second. The same goes for the class. I want a class that's fun to play, and not the 'best' one. Is a GF better than a GWF? So what? I think the GWF is a lot more fun to play. There's alwyas someone else ready to fill up the tank-spot, which leaves me to the DPS spot. Oh, sure, maybe the TR is a better DPSer, but who cares? Killing an enemy might take me a bit longer, but I'm having a heck of a lot of fun doing it. Also, if the DC is any use, we will easily survive anyway. If I wanted a game where I can just click on an enemy to kill it, I'd play Diablo.
Why are some of you so obsessed over efficiency? Whatever happened to having fun? I can't wait until the Fury of the Feywild is launch, so I get to play my Moon Elf. Yes, there are Wood Elves and Half-elves already, and we're getting Sun Elves with FotF. Then there's the Menzo-elves for some of you, and we're getting Drow later. But so what? I want my Moon Elf. Not because it's the 'best' elf class, or that it's this or that. I like how it looks, and that's good enough for me.
Besides, it doesn't matter how great or bad your character is. It all depends on the player behind it. You can have the best character in the game stat-wise, but if you suck as a player, it won't help you at all. Likewise, you can have a rather mediocre character stat-wise, and yet be one of the best players in a group if you really know how to play your character. And last I checked, we don't have stats on us players.
I would love to play a Paladin myself but I think that they should first focus on making the GF more enjoyable to play before adding new classes.
+1
I completely agree that GF and GWF should have been one class with two different paragon paths.
Of course there will be a part of the population that will want to number crunch and only have the most optimal party there could be. That cannot be avoided because this is a MMO.
The majority of the population wont care because they like the class due to flavor, or playing it forever in DnD, or whatever.
Seriously the major difference between this game and other MMO's and the reason i think it will stick around for quite a while is such a large existing lore and player base that see above and beyond pure statistical superiority.
If there was another healer besides cleric i would still run a cleric because i have always played clerics. If the next healers is cool i may level one just because i always play healers. Heck even if that new healer is better numerically i may still play cleric just because the playstyle.
Etc, etc, etc.
There are more people interested in lore/vanity/playstyle than there are pure number crunching i must make a half halfing archer with brown hair that has the spider pet and worships the god of toilets because it is min/max superior compared to the non half halfling archer with brown hair that has the spider pet and worships the god of toilets.
I Prefer playing Powertech Tank in Swtor... Even though at 50 I'm kinda Squishy compared to Juggernaughts.
I Would Play Warlock, Ranger or Warlord... (definatly Warlord) even if they were non-competative compared to other classes.
Just Because you can't Believe it... Doesn't mean it's not worth doing.
I also would like more choice in Paragon Paths and also Classes. Nothing Says they NEED TO BE NOW, just aslong as they come... DnD is big enough that Clone classes shouldn't be that common. Yes at the end of the day all your doing is making a number on the Screen Build until your Numbers beats the Other Number (or the other number runs out) but that what Astecics are for.
A Challenge is something interesting and awkward until you beat it... then it's called "Repetative"
Neverwinter on TVTropes(Needs some loving)
Neverwinter Nights on TVTropes