Stop nerfing TR!! Seriously! Execution is useless, now Lurker's Assault is going to be useless? Please be aware that the tactic on bosses is to pop Lurker's Assault and use Duelist's Flurry 2-3 times. Now that it does less damage is one thing, it's another that we won't even be able to stay stealthed while using an ability that "makes it easier to stay stealthed."
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thalesamrMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited July 2013
And list to me Dungeons that you really need a GWF to be able to do it, then list the dungeons that you need a TR...
In the current state of the game, it feels that GWF are leechers
And list to me Dungeons that you really need a GWF to be able to do it, then list the dungeons that you need a TR...
In the current state of the game, it feels that GWF are leechers
so what are you proposing? Another TR nerf or a GWF buff this time? these classes are both dps. Tr does their work on bosses while gwfs work on adds. You enemy imho is bumping in dungeons. Makes hacking down mobs useless, therefore, the gwf has little to no role in dungeons. Making their single target equal to TRs is so much of a horrible idea that i'm not gonna insult the community's intelligence by talking about it. until we have to kill the millions of adds that these bosses spew out, i dont see GWfs having a bigger role in dungeons. Buffing them further isnt gonna fix the issue.
edit: guy above kinda covered most of what i said.
Thanks Alot you PvP whiners for whining about how some classes are overpowered. Go play an actual PvP game and leave this game alone. I am sick of PvPers wrecking every game that doesn't revolve around PvP
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ta1ch0u1Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited July 2013
Wow, just wow, nerfing TR to death for PVE over a PVP issue yet again?? i mean stealth is our bread and butter now every thing we do will tick the meter down, when any aoe can still hit us while in stealth. Also, nerfing the $h*t out of another daily is really uncalled for. I dont even know where to go with my TR build after this, is there even a point in playing one after this? I have a 60 TR and 60 GF but after you kill off one of my classes; of my 2 character slots, I think i will just follow suit and find something else to waste my time with. Definitely will not be getting any purchases of any kind from me now.
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ministerofchangeMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 1Arc User
*Items purchased via Seals and Glory are now bound to the character when purchased.
WHY.
Ok so I do see the logic behind this, but if they are going to do it they need to do other stuff to compensate:
1. Make Seals and Glory (or at least the equipment they buy) Account bound (at least until equipped) - this way it still cant be sold but can be transferred to an alt who can use it.
2. Make that Trade Merchant they have been talking about - the one that lets you trade in unused purple gear for AD
Glory is going to be the worst with this change, giving people even less reason to PVP at higher levels. Right now the Bots are far more controlled but the queue times are a lot longer, especially in the 50+ Brackets. With this change I can foresee a lot more "Oh I am just here to clear the daily and have no use for glory so I am just going to hang out at the camp fire or some secluded spot on the map till its over", which works fine as long as you move the character every once in a while.
This change really needs to be thought out better.
I have to say if this Nerf goes live, That has to be the final straw for me.
No long winded thread, no whining.
I'll see myself to the door...
This. I'll be leaving too.
Understand this cryptic/pwe. The class is <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> without some serious money invested into it. Now after that has been invested, u think that u can just keep nerfing it and ppl will just keep on playing cos "awww we already spent so much"
BALLS to you k? It's fine. I'll cut my losses and move on. Take the time to do a search of my records and see how much i spent.
Thats just ONE of me. Lets see if this goes live.
I won't say stupid things like "aww u killed the game" Just TRY making this live, and lets see how u like the lashback.
Dispute,chargebacks, etc etc. May or may not be sucessfull. But u will have to deal with a TON of it. THAT i assure you.
PITY,REGRET, AND MERCY are just EXCUSES for the strong not to kill the weak!
Now, they're completely destroying Rogues again by ruining Rogues' primary class feature: Stealth and being able to attack while in stealth. They're also destroying another Daily (Lurker's Assault), which affects both PvE and PvP. Instead of nerfing the damage output of that Daily by let's say, 20%, they completely got rid of the original damage increase and instead, added a worthless 15% Crit Severity to a DAILY. Again, 0 playtesting, 0 thought was put into these gigantic and dramatic nerfs that completely cripples the entire class both in PvE and PvP.
Totally agreed with you. It make more sense by reducing the % damage. Having a Daily that just increase a small bits of Crit Severity is ridiculous.
These Patch notes make me not want to come back to this game at all. 2 new Professions? New map? New dungeon? ok people will have those beaten in 1-2 days easy. then what? whats after that? I mean come on....Then its Nerf the TR into the ground while leaving the truely OverPOwered classes alone aka GF/GWF. Its stuff like this is why i will NEVER spend money on a game that has Item Malls. Companies like PWE only think about how much money they can drain from people rather then trying to make their "Customers" happy. Im not a WoW fan. but you know why they have been around for so long and have had such a huge player base for such a long time? Blizzard has put out some really great quality products (Except D3 which was shameful) but other then that. they can make and keep their customers happy. All you are going to do is push players to quit. /end rant
Anyways RIP Neverwinter Online. This game cant even compare to how great NWN and NWN2 is. Which i went back to playing NWN2 because this game is a god **** shame to the name of Neverwinter
As a person who does not play a rogue in PVE at all, but does play one in PVP, these are my thoughts. Note that I do also play teh other classes.
Cloud of Steel: This power now has 8 maximum charges, down from 12.
Removing 4 charges may be a little too much, I personally feel removing 2 charges would suffice. Still, I personally felt that this skill needed to be toned down a bit, and I dont think this change is all that bad. With the change to lurkers I feel that removing 4 charges on this skill is going to make kiting rogues a little too easy, but probably won't be a huge issue.
Duelist's Flurry: When the bleed portion of this power is at 10 stacks, further applications now recalculate damage in addition to refreshing the duration.
Could be a change for the better, not sure on this one. If the idea here is to make DF less attractive for PVE and perhaps promote sly flourish as viable, I think buffing Sly might have been a better route. I will agree this change is at least partly for the better simply since it feels a bit silly to get a stack to 10 and let it drop off if it isn't critting.
Feat: Speed Swindle: This feat is now properly considered a Control effect for calculations and procs.
Sounds like a good plan.
Lurker's Assault: This power now grants 5 / 10 / 15% bonus Crit Severity, instead of 20 / 40 / 60% bonus damage.
This I think might be a bit over the top for PVE rogues. I think a better solution to balancing rogue PVP damage would have been to change lurkers to the following: This power now grants 5 / 10 / 15% bonus Crit Severity, AND 10 / 15 / 30% bonus bleed damage.
Stealth: At-will powers used from stealth will now partially deplete the Stealth Meter.
I won't argue with this change. If I had a perm stealth rogue however, I would probably be upset. I don't think that people playing against perm stealth rogues is something that is good for the game though, which is why I say I won't argue with it.
If these changes go live I recommend the devs play close attention to the viability of rogues in PVE. Let's not go back to the situation during OB where we had a class (GWF) that had a very difficult time finding groups for alot of the content. Rogues are taken in PUG groups due to the potential high single target damage they can produce. It seems to me the chagnes to lurkers assault might put them in a very bad spot.
If you are going to remove the ability to sell seals and glory - at least give us something else to spend these respective currencies on. I rather not have 80 seals or 3000ish glory just equal a pittance of gold for selling the junk items back to the vendors. Add something like coffers of enchants/runestones, profession resource items or anything to make these useless currencies more then wasted inventory space.
That is a good suggestion.
This is another ridiculous "fix" from the Dev on the "Bound to Character" for the items purchase via Glory. Even at the current state, the price for selling those PvP equipment drops a lots (down to like about 4K - 5K AD per piece in Dragon Shard), which means the players will not be able to earn lots of AD by selling those PvP equipment. I don't see the reason why there is a need to implement "Bound to Character" when purchase.
Sad day for rogues. I don't do pvp but will be crippled in pve.
I am glad there are good games out there to go to.
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leemianyangMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 5Arc User
edited July 2013
do u how hard for a rogue to kill a GWF, GF even a DC. u dont know for sure. this change only make rogue weak nothing help. why rogue stay in sleath? beacause once we out of sleath we will dead. lower gear and healpoint. haha now u even not allow we r stay in sleath. i get the information from this change is rogue go to hell. am i right?
This is another ridiculous "fix" from the Dev on the "Bound to Character" for the items purchase via Glory. Even at the current state, the price for selling those PvP equipment drops a lots (down to like about 4K - 5K AD per piece in Dragon Shard), which means the players will not be able to earn lots of AD by selling those PvP equipment. I don't see the reason why there is a need to implement "Bound to Character" when purchase.
I think the devs are thinking this are trying to slow down gear "progression" here and not trying to limit the ability of players earning AD through the AH. You can get a brand new level 60 in full epics very easily with the seal/glory items. If you were to buy them, it also wouldn' tbe very expensive (most likely less than 100k to fill every slot with purple)
Keep in mind that there is one incredibly awesome result of this change: Bots cannot directly earn AD by farming glory. They can of course earn gold by selling glory items to vendors. That gold could then be turned into AD. The amount of AD they earn will probably be much much less though. An unfortunate side effect to this would be the devaluing of gold in terms of exchanging gold to AD by selling items bought with gold on the AH.
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leemianyangMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 5Arc User
edited July 2013
do u how hard for a rogue to kill a GWF, GF even a DC. u dont know for sure. this change only make rogue weak nothing help. why rogue stay in sleath? beacause once we out of sleath we will dead. lower gear and healpoint. haha now u even not allow we stay in sleath. i get the information from this change is rogue go to hell. am i right? this is unfair.
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leemianyangMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 5Arc User
edited July 2013
if the punch doesn't change the only thing i can do is quit. i already send alot of money in this game because i love rogue. now im too sad. i know it wont help even i quit. but im done. this change will make rogue be impotence.
Cloud of Steel: This power now has 8 maximum charges, down from 12.
Duelist's Flurry: When the bleed portion of this power is at 10 stacks, further applications now recalculate damage in addition to refreshing the duration.
Feat: Speed Swindle: This feat is now properly considered a Control effect for calculations and procs.
Lurker's Assault: This power now grants 5 / 10 / 15% bonus Crit Severity, instead of 20 / 40 / 60% bonus damage.
Stealth: At-will powers used from stealth will now partially deplete the Stealth Meter.
Cloud of Steel- Cool Just a slight nerf to pvp rogues, decent nerf 100% agree. Now fully useless in pve.
Duelist Flurry- I never really understood how bleed worked. if you keep stabbing an enemy he should take more damage instead of ticking the same or ticking random damage. Possibly buff/nerf
Lurker's Assault- now is comparing 15% crit severity to whirlwind of blades damage? When my blitz hits as hard as whirlwind... im not sure if Trickster Rogues actually have a real "Daily"...
Gwfs have a daily that hits as hard as an encounter but it stuns them in place and prones afterwards or aoe damage that builds unstoppable(if you are destroyer spec). I don't see what can i even do with a daily slot when all of my encounters are more effective than dailies...
Stealth- If you use atwills you lose stealth, if you use encounters u lose stealth. toss me a bone we have a low armor class and yet you want us to fight manly with adds? please make impossible to catch last 15 seconds so we can actually not use stealth because how can we deal with adds when we break stealth?
So assuming it drains fairly fast 1 duelist flurry = 1 stealth bar? while we have to remain out of combat(not taking damage) to regen the bar.
Equally geared gwfs comes neck to neck with rogues in dps. don't get me wrong I always have a gwf in party, only people who think they can clear faster without the gwf debuffs think gwfs are useless.
Era of the GWFs truely begins.... Dominating from PvP to PvE... thank god just finished my 13k gwf recently, I'll look forward to crush useless other classes in pvp and top damage in aoe and single target(sprint cancel surestrike is too good!). No need for rogues for Castle Never since debuffed boss dies faster. And my end game rogue will just be another praying mule.
Nevermore@meeggtoast 12.2 BiS TR Lanaya@meeggtoast 13.4 BiS GWF Shendelzare@meeggtoast 11.2k CN mule CW
Comments
In the current state of the game, it feels that GWF are leechers
I mean the lurkers assault change is huge
what type of theoretical damage nerf is that if I had x damage before and I have a perfect vorpal and I lurkers now vs what it would have been before?
that is because CW can toss stuff off ledge - that's cw imbalance not a TR imbalance
GWF is aoe damage rogue is ST
nerfing Rogue doesn't fix GWF - nerfing CW does
so what are you proposing? Another TR nerf or a GWF buff this time? these classes are both dps. Tr does their work on bosses while gwfs work on adds. You enemy imho is bumping in dungeons. Makes hacking down mobs useless, therefore, the gwf has little to no role in dungeons. Making their single target equal to TRs is so much of a horrible idea that i'm not gonna insult the community's intelligence by talking about it. until we have to kill the millions of adds that these bosses spew out, i dont see GWfs having a bigger role in dungeons. Buffing them further isnt gonna fix the issue.
edit: guy above kinda covered most of what i said.
That really doesnt make any sense. Ive seen gwfs tank 2-3 geared people at once. All while 3 shotin' people.
Perma stealth is so easy to counter (aoe), but lets nerf that and leave the real broken classes alone.
You, the devs, realize this wont stop tr qq? Now they all will cry about 1shot lashing blade builds like they did before.
Also, anyone else think its funny that the only spec that favors the pvp gear (to my knowledge) is getting gutted?
Nerfing rogues dmg it will only slow the dungeons clear time.
today, the best party to clear frozen heart is 1 DC and 4 rogues...
you can finish it in less than 10 minutes
It could also make a rogue's role easily be replaced by a dps spec'd gf or gwf. More survivability too
Rogue can 1v1 several bosses much better than GWF even if GWF had more 50% ST dmg than rogues...
No... it cant... because rogues can solo bosses better independent of the dmg
Ok so I do see the logic behind this, but if they are going to do it they need to do other stuff to compensate:
1. Make Seals and Glory (or at least the equipment they buy) Account bound (at least until equipped) - this way it still cant be sold but can be transferred to an alt who can use it.
2. Make that Trade Merchant they have been talking about - the one that lets you trade in unused purple gear for AD
Glory is going to be the worst with this change, giving people even less reason to PVP at higher levels. Right now the Bots are far more controlled but the queue times are a lot longer, especially in the 50+ Brackets. With this change I can foresee a lot more "Oh I am just here to clear the daily and have no use for glory so I am just going to hang out at the camp fire or some secluded spot on the map till its over", which works fine as long as you move the character every once in a while.
This change really needs to be thought out better.
D&D Home Page - What Class Are You? - Build A Character - D&D Compendium
This. I'll be leaving too.
Understand this cryptic/pwe. The class is <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> without some serious money invested into it. Now after that has been invested, u think that u can just keep nerfing it and ppl will just keep on playing cos "awww we already spent so much"
BALLS to you k? It's fine. I'll cut my losses and move on. Take the time to do a search of my records and see how much i spent.
Thats just ONE of me. Lets see if this goes live.
I won't say stupid things like "aww u killed the game" Just TRY making this live, and lets see how u like the lashback.
Dispute,chargebacks, etc etc. May or may not be sucessfull. But u will have to deal with a TON of it. THAT i assure you.
Totally agreed with you. It make more sense by reducing the % damage. Having a Daily that just increase a small bits of Crit Severity is ridiculous.
Ebony (Whisperknife)
Yep, I can't stand it when devs wreck PvE for PvP. One of the many reasons I don't PvP.
@headlesshorseman
Anyways RIP Neverwinter Online. This game cant even compare to how great NWN and NWN2 is. Which i went back to playing NWN2 because this game is a god **** shame to the name of Neverwinter
This.
/10char
Cloud of Steel: This power now has 8 maximum charges, down from 12.
Removing 4 charges may be a little too much, I personally feel removing 2 charges would suffice. Still, I personally felt that this skill needed to be toned down a bit, and I dont think this change is all that bad. With the change to lurkers I feel that removing 4 charges on this skill is going to make kiting rogues a little too easy, but probably won't be a huge issue.
Duelist's Flurry: When the bleed portion of this power is at 10 stacks, further applications now recalculate damage in addition to refreshing the duration.
Could be a change for the better, not sure on this one. If the idea here is to make DF less attractive for PVE and perhaps promote sly flourish as viable, I think buffing Sly might have been a better route. I will agree this change is at least partly for the better simply since it feels a bit silly to get a stack to 10 and let it drop off if it isn't critting.
Feat: Speed Swindle: This feat is now properly considered a Control effect for calculations and procs.
Sounds like a good plan.
Lurker's Assault: This power now grants 5 / 10 / 15% bonus Crit Severity, instead of 20 / 40 / 60% bonus damage.
This I think might be a bit over the top for PVE rogues. I think a better solution to balancing rogue PVP damage would have been to change lurkers to the following: This power now grants 5 / 10 / 15% bonus Crit Severity, AND 10 / 15 / 30% bonus bleed damage.
Stealth: At-will powers used from stealth will now partially deplete the Stealth Meter.
I won't argue with this change. If I had a perm stealth rogue however, I would probably be upset. I don't think that people playing against perm stealth rogues is something that is good for the game though, which is why I say I won't argue with it.
If these changes go live I recommend the devs play close attention to the viability of rogues in PVE. Let's not go back to the situation during OB where we had a class (GWF) that had a very difficult time finding groups for alot of the content. Rogues are taken in PUG groups due to the potential high single target damage they can produce. It seems to me the chagnes to lurkers assault might put them in a very bad spot.
That is a good suggestion.
This is another ridiculous "fix" from the Dev on the "Bound to Character" for the items purchase via Glory. Even at the current state, the price for selling those PvP equipment drops a lots (down to like about 4K - 5K AD per piece in Dragon Shard), which means the players will not be able to earn lots of AD by selling those PvP equipment. I don't see the reason why there is a need to implement "Bound to Character" when purchase.
Ebony (Whisperknife)
I am glad there are good games out there to go to.
I think the devs are thinking this are trying to slow down gear "progression" here and not trying to limit the ability of players earning AD through the AH. You can get a brand new level 60 in full epics very easily with the seal/glory items. If you were to buy them, it also wouldn' tbe very expensive (most likely less than 100k to fill every slot with purple)
Keep in mind that there is one incredibly awesome result of this change: Bots cannot directly earn AD by farming glory. They can of course earn gold by selling glory items to vendors. That gold could then be turned into AD. The amount of AD they earn will probably be much much less though. An unfortunate side effect to this would be the devaluing of gold in terms of exchanging gold to AD by selling items bought with gold on the AH.
Cloud of Steel- Cool Just a slight nerf to pvp rogues, decent nerf 100% agree. Now fully useless in pve.
Duelist Flurry- I never really understood how bleed worked. if you keep stabbing an enemy he should take more damage instead of ticking the same or ticking random damage. Possibly buff/nerf
Lurker's Assault- now is comparing 15% crit severity to whirlwind of blades damage? When my blitz hits as hard as whirlwind... im not sure if Trickster Rogues actually have a real "Daily"...
Gwfs have a daily that hits as hard as an encounter but it stuns them in place and prones afterwards or aoe damage that builds unstoppable(if you are destroyer spec). I don't see what can i even do with a daily slot when all of my encounters are more effective than dailies...
Stealth- If you use atwills you lose stealth, if you use encounters u lose stealth. toss me a bone we have a low armor class and yet you want us to fight manly with adds? please make impossible to catch last 15 seconds so we can actually not use stealth because how can we deal with adds when we break stealth?
So assuming it drains fairly fast 1 duelist flurry = 1 stealth bar? while we have to remain out of combat(not taking damage) to regen the bar.
Equally geared gwfs comes neck to neck with rogues in dps. don't get me wrong I always have a gwf in party, only people who think they can clear faster without the gwf debuffs think gwfs are useless.
Era of the GWFs truely begins.... Dominating from PvP to PvE... thank god just finished my 13k gwf recently, I'll look forward to crush useless other classes in pvp and top damage in aoe and single target(sprint cancel surestrike is too good!). No need for rogues for Castle Never since debuffed boss dies faster. And my end game rogue will just be another praying mule.
Lanaya@meeggtoast 13.4 BiS GWF
Shendelzare@meeggtoast 11.2k CN mule CW
Server: Dragon
Stream: meeggtoast
Guide: Meeggtoast's Destroyer Dps Guide