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The speed run culture: why things fall apart
chronomancer
Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 1,223
Today I joined a PUG party for Caverns of Karrundax. And this is my personal observation. The party started uneventfully enough, about half way thru the dungeon the party leader keep bugging the rest of the party to "keep up" as he weaves thru all the various "short cuts" (ie. geographical exploits) throughout the dungeon to bypass large chunk of the dungeon. Many members of the party are new to this run and are not familiar with the dungeon. Eventually people got lost and died as a huge train of mobs bear down on those who are lost. The party leader was cussing and berating everyone. Eventually people got fed up and left hence the party failed to complete the dungeon. I find it disturbing that people are being insulted just because do not know how to do "speed runs". This is a disturbing trend for the community of this game.
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Still, I have all but given up on that particular dungeon because of this.
"Is it better to be feared or respected? I say, is it too much to ask for both?" -Tony Stark
Official NW_Legit_Community Forums
You do understand that as long as you don't lose connection and complete the dungeon you will be awarded the DD chest?
Doesn't matter if you finish in 20 minutes or 20 hours?
Back to my originally scheduled beer.
Yes, I know that. However, if you're trying to get in 2 or 3 runs during the 1 hr DD event, then time is a factor.
"Is it better to be feared or respected? I say, is it too much to ask for both?" -Tony Stark
Official NW_Legit_Community Forums
Run with like minded folks?
Better yet...Run with folks you KNOW can complete said task.
Ah... the age-old argument of "get a premade" rears it's ugly head. Frankly, cheating/exploiting shouldn't be an option. These "speed runs" simply try to take advantage of bad map designs and the mechanics of how the campfires work. How about we play the game the correct way - and I'm not talking about some sort of subjective "right"... I'm talking about in the "way the game was intended to be played" manner.
"Is it better to be feared or respected? I say, is it too much to ask for both?" -Tony Stark
Official NW_Legit_Community Forums
But I also agree if you queue for a PUG you should expect less experienced/new players. I like to show them the ropes, I don't mind if it takes a little extra time. If we fail, we fail; there will be another DD tomorrow or in 4 hrs if you have lots of time on your hands. I always thank the group for the attempt or the run. It wasn't only my time, but their time as well.
Fox Stevenson - Sandblast
Oh Wonder - Without You
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
- Dylan Thomas
This attitude....+1
Same with pushing. Some want to push even the smallest easiest to kill thrash, so you end up spending more time and sometimes health to try to lure them, than it would by just killing them.
It shouldn't be possible, but it is. What generally has more importance when dealing with a situation as players is what is and how to work around it than what should be, as we don't have the power to make things as they should be. As such, finding players or a guild or like mind isn't a bad idea.
What way was the game intended to be played? If it's anything other than avoiding exploits, it is pretty much subjective.
Orrrrr....some of you young pups do not realize that long term enjoyment is meeting new people and being able to interact with them in a video game....JUST SAY'N.
Nothing better than to log in on a given night and folks asking you to run a dungeon, GG, or DD just because they have faith in your abilities to get it done.
Orrrrrr the fact that once you get together with folks you meet via a game and start developing a friendship and people make fun of you (or vice versa) while getting smashed and running a dungeon...
Better off pointing out weaknesses instead of doing something about it...AMIRITE????
It's not fun, nor rewarding.
So he should "/zone LFM 11k GS, exp and arrogant"
Bascially your solution to the problem of people wanting to do speedruns is to do speedruns.
Quite simply, genius.
Part of the problem is the delves - it encourages those type of players to rush through the content in the window. What I don't understand is that Cryptic must be aware of this practice and they must realise that they're partly responsible. I think removing the delve window and keeping the chest in place would reduce the need for people to rush through. Unfortunately, I think it has now gone on for so long that you'll always get some players rushing through it anyway now.
Ironically, I've never known an MMORPG put up so many barriers to prevent their players from taking their time and enjoying their content; easy PvP XP, very short time to max level, timed windows for bonus content.
Heck, people on the forums are asking for a way to turn off XP as they want to take their time and play longer.
I don't think they intended content to be bypassed. If they did.....well that would just be stupid.
You are unfortunetly in the Minority we do need more experianced players with your attitude.
Of course, I don't expect Cryptic to listen to a suggestion like that.
That's pretty simple - look in the Wondrous Bazaar.
When Cryptic were working on the economy/pricing in the game, they felt that 2,000,000 Astral Diamonds was appropriate for a piece of T0, blue armor @ level 60 - this is the reason we can refine 24,000 AD's a day (as opposed to Star Trek Online's 8000 Dilithium).
With the lack of QA on the dungeons (and the terrible DD mechanic), they've devalued their entire planned economy to the point where you can buy end-game T2 purple armor from the AH for 30,000 AD's or less (something Cryptic would probably value at 5,000,000+).
Exploiting to this degree shouldn't have been possible and the game (and end-game) has been massively skewed because of of it - but the damage is done and with every new patch players are finding ways to circumvent the content again (look at all the LFG's for 1/4 CN farming atm).
Cryptic and the players are going to have to adapt because the game (as planned) isn't possible any more.
When they reduce the trash by half or more then I won't feel the need to skip the unneeded, no useful item dropping, nothing more than time consuming, trash mobs. I'm happy that they have it the way it is really. For the first few runs of an instance I got to experience everything, it was long and difficult and a great challenge for the first few experiences. But now that I'm well versed in these dungeons I can run through them quickly and actually get some decent AD without having to play the game 8 hours a day.
Anyone who says "Omg you're such an elitist jerk to want to run the instance in 20 minutes instead of an hour+" either has wayyyy too much play time, or is new to the instance, and in this case you have fun with your run with other new people and I will have fun with my quicker run because I'm already experienced in this dungeon.
I see a new "OMG elitist exploiters breaking game!!!!" post every other day. If you don't like running through a dungeon quickly then just ask at the very start "Hey would you guys like to clear the trash all the way to the boss?" if they all say no we're going to hop over some walls and be done with this in 20 minutes find a new group, and their group will auto fill with someone new, no harm to either party. But instead of living and let live people have to post on the forum trying to get cryptic to ban anything that would make runs take less than an hour.
@ poster above do you really want to see T2 cost 5 mil ad per piece? Yes getting end game gear should take some time, and it most certainly does to get T2, gemmed shirt/pants, rank 7+ enchants, ancient weapons etc.
If they actually removed any and all shortcuts so that you had to kill every mob up to the boss I simply wouldn't have the time to do dungeons. This is F2P so their paying customer base are people with full-time jobs like myself, which is why I'm pretty confident they aren't going to make dungeons take an hour+ mandatory because most of their paying customers can only make 1 DD at most anyway.
By the way, an exploit is something that players figure out that makes a dungeon easier that was NOT cryptics intent in the game. Many such exploits have been fixed (CN, FH, Pirate and others) However some have been there since early open beta and continue to be usable. It seems to me that cryptic shares my view that certain time shaving shortcuts need to be there to keep their players with less time running the dungeons.
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
The OPs problems is that NW is full of impatient idiots, and put the time requirement of DDs together with impatient idiots and you'll have a bad time. Once you actually get well geared, know decent people you like to run with (guild of otherwise) and you've ran t2's a million times you'll see what i mean. There is not enough content in the game to take away the metagame of speedrunning.
That is an exceleent suggestion....
They could remove the T2 set dropping from the DD chest and give bosses a guaranteed T2 drop instead. Im mostly doing this "speed runs" but as soon as the timer is gone, the pacing gets far more relaxed.
and also the featured satirical comedic adventure "A Call for Heroes".
If you concentrate the maximum reward in a limited time window, with no limit to how many times you can clear the instance, the speed run becomes the best way to maximize your reward with the least effort.
If I had to "propose" a change it would be to remove the event and move those rewards to a new daily quest of clearing epic dungeons (of course it has to be rebalanced in terms of quantity/quality, but the idea is there), I think it would help a bit with the "speed run culture".
Of course, it wouldn't solve it completely, as it still remains the fact that they are doable and save you a lot of time and boredom.
Another change to include could be reduction of the amount of trash mobs in dungeons, and their buffing in "power" (making them harder to skip), while also increasing the reward for killing them, for example removing all that green <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> they drop and adding a chance to drop the boss tokens or some very rare unique gear (low chance) instead.
Don't tell me that you avoid using the shortcuts.
the DD event is all about speed , if you don't have good group that clears fast - you get less loot . If someone wants to slack and waste their time they can do it outside the DD event for lelz . Not in my groups though .
In D&D we call these Hidden Paths not an exploit. They are design elements that the DEVs created in the game and many of which are obviously there as intended.
This.
Look at the games that have lasted years.
Most of them are in it for the long-haul from the beginning.
The root cause of this is what I have come to term "LGD" - lazy game design.
Any game that is designed so that a player, even if playing 24/7, can level to cap within anything less than 2 months of time has got one of the fundamentals wrong.
MMORPG's are a bit like life: the destination is not the important bit, the journey is. And if an MMORPG rushes to the destination it will find, that just like in life, that destination is death.
But to hold people's attentions for slower progression requires more content, better designed content, gated instances etc.
And you don't get that with LGD.
Almost all games that have "instanced zones", as opposed to open world play, are inherently guilty of LGD.
Open World Play requires a lot more joined up thinking in terms of story, content, gear, skill progression design and implementation.
Games like this with "instanced zones" don't need that as much - so costs are down right off the bat.
Making it an Action MMO, rather that a story-arc MMO also cuts costs.
Problem is those things also cut player immersion, game longevity etc.
I've played LOTRO on and off for the last 5 years or so; I am 100% that I'll return at some point.
Now, hand on hearts guys; how many of you genuinely you'll be here playing this in 5 years time?
What about 4?
Or even 3?
Game longevity requires player engagement and immersion with the content.
Lazy Game Design is a barrier to both of those things.
Bean-Counters are ruining this genre. They think that most profit is derived by driving down cost, and increasing fees.
It isn't.
Most profit is derived from having a product players are willing to invest time in, and that will lead to them investing money.
How much time are you really going to devote to a game that 80% of players were at end-game in within 10 days of release?
Game Designers need to understand that rapid player progression ONLY works if the Content Updates are equally rapid. And paradoxically trying to meet that demand will drive up costs OR as we have seen here drive down quality.
I like the setting here. I like the Action MMO feel (other games feel very slow in comparison). I absolutely LOVE the Foundry.
I'd love to be able to say I'll be here in 5 years time.
But the truth is I don't even think the game itself will be here then.
As Lao Tzu said: The flame that burns twice as bright burns half as long.
Cryptic/PWE have delivered us brightly burning flame in terms of level progression.
They'd get a lot more life, and so money, out of the game if they delivered us a flame that burned longer.
All The Best
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