The Cleric is undoubtedly broken. One of the things you really come to notice when fiddling around with different specs is how messy it all is. The Cleric has splashes of things scattered across the paragon paths. Even if there were enough feat points to access all of the related buffs there still aren't enough to build a solid spec. A touch of %max health heals, a touch of debuffs, a touch of buffs, a few actual heals(with charges or prohibitive cooldowns).
The Cleric is a mess. It very much looks like a few ideas were thrown in a hat, jumbled about and then drawn at random.
Apparently the devs ran 5-man content with the cleric to test it, if this is true I would really appreciate the specs they used.
you forgot to mention that in order to even use what clerics can put points into they often have a small chance to proc them and only get such chance when having to do weird stuff like critical heal to get an effect that is good if the cleric is attacking
I just wanted to to say a few words to this thread. I fully agree to the OP saying that cleric class is basically not usable in PVP in the current state. I play a 60 TR, a 60 CW, and having an almost 60 DC now, so I know what I am talking abbout. TR & CW having both about 11K GS and both very often top any PVP table at the end or are very high placed.
In PVP I almost never saw any cleric who could stand long against me as TR. When having Daily ready a DC is a oneshot, even when standing in Astralshield. When no daily is available the fight can take a bit longer, I just wait till the DC got kicked out of his AS and kill
him/her quickly or just wait till the got cced by any other class.
With my CW its a bit harder but when my 4seconds all next hits are crits proc got active any DC dies. The DC only stands a chance when he/she is well protected by the group but that is often not the case, at least not in PUG.
So in my opinion the DC definetely needs some love from the Devs. For example I would remove this ridiculous -40% Heal penalty or at least lower it to -20% or whatever value and I would give the class a bit more defense. Just have a look at the ridiculous overpowered Tank class. When played/geared correctly they are almost unstoppable and dealing more or equal damage than any DD... there is just no balancing around PVP..
PS: Dont flame me for my English, I am no native speaker
I just wanted to to say a few words to this thread. I fully agree to the OP saying that cleric class is basically not usable in PVP in the current state. I play a 60 TR, a 60 CW, and having an almost 60 DC now, so I know what I am talking abbout. TR & CW having both about 11K GS and both very often top any PVP table at the end or are very high placed.
In PVP I almost never saw any cleric who could stand long against me as TR. When having Daily ready a DC is a oneshot, even when standing in Astralshield. When no daily is available the fight can take a bit longer, I just wait till the DC got kicked out of his AS and kill
him/her quickly or just wait till the got cced by any other class.
With my CW its a bit harder but when my 4seconds all next hits are crits proc got active any DC dies. The DC only stands a chance when he/she is well protected by the group but that is often not the case, at least not in PUG.
So in my opinion the DC definetely needs some love from the Devs. For example I would remove this ridiculous -40% Heal penalty or at least lower it to -20% or whatever value and I would give the class a bit more defense. Just have a look at the ridiculous overpowered Tank class. When played/geared correctly they are almost unstoppable and dealing more or equal damage than any DD... there is just no balancing around PVP..
PS: Dont flame me for my English, I am no native speaker
Unless you have 4-5 tenes and a greater vorpal, i could solo you with my cleric. I really don't see what's the issue with rogues. The issue is tanks, but they have a counter (CWs). I have killed many rogues being too daring, thinking i can be an easy prey. I'm not, and i don't even use bugged potions. The fact is that many clerics players are plainly bad and don't want to think they can improve the way they play the game. If facts don't please people, people start blaming facts, not their inability to adapt.
I have a CW char now, and i've been playing with many different DCs. The number of incompetent ones is astounding. Really. It's definitely not a minority. There must be maybe 20% of good clerics, and the rest is hardly able do to epic pirate king. Bad specs, not the good spells, heals that barely heal because of that... Don't think the class is underpowered. If it gets buffed, players like myself will just be the PvP masters and everyone will start complaining about how OP clerics are.
Currently, i can kill a 9-10k GS rogue withing 5s. Isn't that enough?
The problem is you can be an utterly terrible TR/GF/GWF/CW and still rack up the kills. Clerics do not have this luxury.
If you need to be an utterly astounding player to do "ok", then that is in itself exactly the problem.
But hey, for the sake of argument, what's your cleric wearing and what encounters etc do you take?
GWFs eat CWs for breakfast, lunch, dinner, maybe even for a midnight snack. GFs eat everything bar their own kind and probably the GWF (the CW matchup is at most just frustrating [blink range = threatening rush <at-will> range]).
To be fair, any class can kill a TR in 5 seconds IF they are caught with their pants down (no dodges, ITC is down, stealth runs out etc). You might need a daily to do it (Ice Knife, Crescendo, Hammer) but doable for any class. I don't see it as being 'special'.
The problem is you can be an utterly terrible TR/GF/GWF/CW and still rack up the kills. Clerics do not have this luxury.
If you need to be an utterly astounding player to do "ok", then that is in itself exactly the problem.
But hey, for the sake of argument, what's your cleric wearing and what encounters etc do you take?
that's because their need to buff their defences. Any class that can heal will be a natural target. I mean I feel like I'm wearing cloth when I'm wearing chain mail.
Unless you have 4-5 tenes and a greater vorpal, i could solo you with my cleric. I really don't see what's the issue with rogues. The issue is tanks, but they have a counter (CWs). I have killed many rogues being too daring, thinking i can be an easy prey. I'm not, and i don't even use bugged potions. The fact is that many clerics players are plainly bad and don't want to think they can improve the way they play the game. If facts don't please people, people start blaming facts, not their inability to adapt.
I have a CW char now, and i've been playing with many different DCs. The number of incompetent ones is astounding. Really. It's definitely not a minority. There must be maybe 20% of good clerics, and the rest is hardly able do to epic pirate king. Bad specs, not the good spells, heals that barely heal because of that... Don't think the class is underpowered. If it gets buffed, players like myself will just be the PvP masters and everyone will start complaining about how OP clerics are.
Currently, i can kill a 9-10k GS rogue withing 5s. Isn't that enough?
Actually my cleric is 58 so far so I dont know personally how good or bad they are on 60. Anyway greater vorpal is very overrated, I am using greater Plage fire with cumulated 45% def reducement with 3 stacks and have about 2000 armor penetration on my rogue and only met very few clerics who could tank me a little while in 1:1.
I would be interested how you skill and what armor, enchantments you would recommand for high end PVP Heal cleric. Thank you.
The problem is that the cleric is balanced around PvE in group, where they are supposed to heal and protect against minion damage but not against "red (dodgeable) attacks". Such large damage is supposed to be avoided by every class depending on their own skills/reaction ... or pots.
When specced deep into healing PvE performance is quite ok (but not exceptional) in group, but it don't work in PvP that way. Damage is too high to heal against, espacially if two or even more player assist. That fact is even more pronounced with enchantments like tenebrous.
There are imho only two solutions. Redo the combat concept, make healing and defense much stronger as they are now. Or make high damage encounter powers better dodgeable by increasing the animation time by around 2-5 secs and better visible by red areas, like in PvE. Exception are only healing and control spells doing no damage.
That means e.g. Rogue's lashing blade or Wizard's ray of enfeb it would make you blink red for 2-3 secs. If you can dodge, you avoid damage.
Full miracle healer set. Currently 2 greater tenebrous enchantments (working on a 3rd), a greater thundehead enchantment (anti rogue/gwf tool), the CN set, around 1.7k def. Soulforged is imo vastly overestimated. A stun is more precious than A 3-4s immunity (you can still get stunned and you won't be able to heal yourself).
Encounters: sun burst, forgemaster's flame (for dots, not for heals), astral shield. At wills: Brand of the sun, astral seal. Daily: hammer of fate, divine armor. I currently have linked spirit for gauntlgrym.
I have a very aggressive pvp play style, so i'm not afraid of using the yellow astral shield just to bump the rogue/mage/tank with a divine sun burst if i have only one tick left, and then hitting them with hammer of fate during the stun time, so that they can't dodge it. The last 5k hp will be removed via dots. If it's a tank, i just hope the CW is in the vincinity. With sun burst, the daily is often full if you like taking risks and try to use it on numerous red guys. Players charge the daily much better than mobs.
Actually, i heal when i can or when i feel it will make a difference, but the team is mostly on its own and mostly get buffs only when i'm busy killing rogues and wizards.
Based on my experience, there is no one set of powers that fits all situations. For PVP, I did well in one skirmish and failed miserably in an other. For PVE, especially the dungeons, depending on the group, either I have to use all the healing buffs or to change to a setting that lowers the boss defense and makes it weak. Astral shield, for example, may sound like a good skill. However, in certain situations where everyone has to keep running around and not staying in one spot, its use is limited. It is a challenge to be a DC but interesting though.
Ok, so that's....quite good gear, I'd say. Better than the majority of clerics, even if we restrict it to 60s only. Hell of a lot better than my stuff, that's for sure. I tip my hat to you.
However, more germane to the topic: if you rolled up in unenchanted PvP purps (or 'freshly dinged 60' blues/greens) I suspect you'd have a much, much harder time (I know I did -armour with stacked lifesteal? GENIUS). Do the same as a GF/TR/GWF/CW and you can more or less start melting faces -to a satisfying if not spectacular degree- right off the bat.
We're primarily a support class, ultimately, and PvP isn't really balanced around support classes at all.
I think at current you need to choose between being decent in PvP and foundries, or decent in PvE and foundries, being decent at all three you have to be geared up with the best of everything and then you are merely decent.
Ok, so that's....quite good gear, I'd say. Better than the majority of clerics, even if we restrict it to 60s only. Hell of a lot better than my stuff, that's for sure. I tip my hat to you.
However, more germane to the topic: if you rolled up in unenchanted PvP purps (or 'freshly dinged 60' blues/greens) I suspect you'd have a much, much harder time (I know I did -armour with stacked lifesteal? GENIUS). Do the same as a GF/TR/GWF/CW and you can more or less start melting faces -to a satisfying if not spectacular degree- right off the bat.
We're primarily a support class, ultimately, and PvP isn't really balanced around support classes at all.
Well i'm still around 10.5k GS, so if it's what a cleric needs to be on par with other classes, then be it. Many rogues have more GS than me anyway.
And for the record, a proof that clerics don't suck in pvp. I did it for you 1h ago, guys! :cool:
And for the record, a proof that clerics don't suck in pvp. I did it for you 1h ago, guys! :cool:
lolscoreboardimage.jpg
Why do people keep posting screenshots of the scoreboard as if that's proof of something? You want to prove that the cleric class isn't weak in PvP then do some premades against other good premades (e.g., against DPS with perfect vorpals and 7 greater tenes where you get bursted 100-0 in 2 seconds) and show me video proof of you carrying your own weight, and by that i mean doing as well as or better than any other class if you were to be replaced by them. The sad truth is it's far better to replace a cleric with literally any other class (except maybe a CW, which is also a weak class) and your team will be better off for it. Clerics don't do enough burst healing or have enough crowd control to really compete in high-end PvP. Yes, you can do very well against pugs if you are a better player than them and more geared than them, no one is debating that. However, as soon as you're up against players of equal gear and skill the glaring weakness of the cleric class becomes extremely apparent.
Oh, and before i forget the obligatory scoreboard images to 'prove' how 'strong' the cleric class is (herpderp, and yes, this is sarcasm):
Too bad, even though i dominate the scoreboard with zero deaths, i still think the cleric class is absurdly weak in comparison to the other classes -- scoreboard screenshots seriously prove nothing and mean nothing, stop posting them, please. Oh, and I can make this statement about clerics being weak compared to the other classes because i actually have every class at level 60 with at least equal gear as my cleric. The difference between the cleric class and a well-geared/played TR/GF/GWF is absolutely night and day, these three classes can completely carry games whereas clerics will just hold back the maximum potential of any team.
clerics lack the kills, good assists and can run up points, still weak but if played extremely well they can still place ... the only other cleric shown had 0 kills 5 deaths and 43 assists
clerics lack the kills, good assists and can run up points, still weak but if played extremely well they can still place ... the only other cleric shown had 0 kills 5 deaths and 43 assists
I can do kills, unless rogues give the last hit, and it happens quite a lot.
And yes, the scoreboard is meaningful, it means a well played clerics can get the top tier rewards, which is all we should care about. I'm not talking about weird premades in which you have a team of 5 clerics against a team of 5 tanks... :rolleyes:
And yes, the scoreboard is meaningful, it means a well played clerics can get the top tier rewards, which is all we should care about. I'm not talking about weird premades in which you have a team of 5 clerics against a team of 5 tanks... :rolleyes:
It's true that a cleric can get top score but only if they significantly outplay everyone else (or try the hardest or care the most about getting top score). I can effortlessly (i.e., without even thinking about it or trying to get it) get the top score in literally 95% of every PvP game i've ever done on my TR. Guess how many times i effortlessly get top score on my cleric? Zero times. Zero times out thousands of games have i got top score on my cleric without trying. Since you seem to care so much about getting top score and the best reward, do you think it's fair that a cleric has to work at least three times as hard as a TR to get top score? If there's even a remotely competent TR in your party you will NEVER get top score. Never. It's literally impossible with how the scoring system works since a TR can easily kill-steal with stealth --> lashing blade and get the +50 kill points and the +100/50 bonus points per kill. Clerics can only reliably kill steal with their daily and even that sucks because of how slow it is and how easy it is to dodge/avoid. Clerics also can't back-cap because it takes them so long to win a 1v1 that by the time they kill one person another enemy has showed up or your team shows up to get points as well (so that means you wasted 1 minute wining a 1v1 just so your team can show up for 5 seconds and get the same point reward as you).
The fact is, clerics are not only weak in top-tier premade vs premade games, but they get shafted when it comes to getting top score in pug games as well.
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derpaderpistMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited July 2013
Clerics in pvp = easy kills , please roll more of them thanks .
" We live in an age of the cheaply made, disposable, high priced junk. " - theunwarshed
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you forgot to mention that in order to even use what clerics can put points into they often have a small chance to proc them and only get such chance when having to do weird stuff like critical heal to get an effect that is good if the cleric is attacking
In PVP I almost never saw any cleric who could stand long against me as TR. When having Daily ready a DC is a oneshot, even when standing in Astralshield. When no daily is available the fight can take a bit longer, I just wait till the DC got kicked out of his AS and kill
him/her quickly or just wait till the got cced by any other class.
With my CW its a bit harder but when my 4seconds all next hits are crits proc got active any DC dies. The DC only stands a chance when he/she is well protected by the group but that is often not the case, at least not in PUG.
So in my opinion the DC definetely needs some love from the Devs. For example I would remove this ridiculous -40% Heal penalty or at least lower it to -20% or whatever value and I would give the class a bit more defense. Just have a look at the ridiculous overpowered Tank class. When played/geared correctly they are almost unstoppable and dealing more or equal damage than any DD... there is just no balancing around PVP..
PS: Dont flame me for my English, I am no native speaker
Unless you have 4-5 tenes and a greater vorpal, i could solo you with my cleric. I really don't see what's the issue with rogues. The issue is tanks, but they have a counter (CWs). I have killed many rogues being too daring, thinking i can be an easy prey. I'm not, and i don't even use bugged potions. The fact is that many clerics players are plainly bad and don't want to think they can improve the way they play the game. If facts don't please people, people start blaming facts, not their inability to adapt.
I have a CW char now, and i've been playing with many different DCs. The number of incompetent ones is astounding. Really. It's definitely not a minority. There must be maybe 20% of good clerics, and the rest is hardly able do to epic pirate king. Bad specs, not the good spells, heals that barely heal because of that... Don't think the class is underpowered. If it gets buffed, players like myself will just be the PvP masters and everyone will start complaining about how OP clerics are.
Currently, i can kill a 9-10k GS rogue withing 5s. Isn't that enough?
The problem is you can be an utterly terrible TR/GF/GWF/CW and still rack up the kills. Clerics do not have this luxury.
If you need to be an utterly astounding player to do "ok", then that is in itself exactly the problem.
But hey, for the sake of argument, what's your cleric wearing and what encounters etc do you take?
To be fair, any class can kill a TR in 5 seconds IF they are caught with their pants down (no dodges, ITC is down, stealth runs out etc). You might need a daily to do it (Ice Knife, Crescendo, Hammer) but doable for any class. I don't see it as being 'special'.
PVP: How to make your life less miserable as a Devoted Clerics -- Still in it's Unfinished Glory
Dragon
that's because their need to buff their defences. Any class that can heal will be a natural target. I mean I feel like I'm wearing cloth when I'm wearing chain mail.
Actually my cleric is 58 so far so I dont know personally how good or bad they are on 60. Anyway greater vorpal is very overrated, I am using greater Plage fire with cumulated 45% def reducement with 3 stacks and have about 2000 armor penetration on my rogue and only met very few clerics who could tank me a little while in 1:1.
I would be interested how you skill and what armor, enchantments you would recommand for high end PVP Heal cleric. Thank you.
When specced deep into healing PvE performance is quite ok (but not exceptional) in group, but it don't work in PvP that way. Damage is too high to heal against, espacially if two or even more player assist. That fact is even more pronounced with enchantments like tenebrous.
There are imho only two solutions. Redo the combat concept, make healing and defense much stronger as they are now. Or make high damage encounter powers better dodgeable by increasing the animation time by around 2-5 secs and better visible by red areas, like in PvE. Exception are only healing and control spells doing no damage.
That means e.g. Rogue's lashing blade or Wizard's ray of enfeb it would make you blink red for 2-3 secs. If you can dodge, you avoid damage.
Encounters: sun burst, forgemaster's flame (for dots, not for heals), astral shield. At wills: Brand of the sun, astral seal. Daily: hammer of fate, divine armor. I currently have linked spirit for gauntlgrym.
I have a very aggressive pvp play style, so i'm not afraid of using the yellow astral shield just to bump the rogue/mage/tank with a divine sun burst if i have only one tick left, and then hitting them with hammer of fate during the stun time, so that they can't dodge it. The last 5k hp will be removed via dots. If it's a tank, i just hope the CW is in the vincinity. With sun burst, the daily is often full if you like taking risks and try to use it on numerous red guys. Players charge the daily much better than mobs.
Actually, i heal when i can or when i feel it will make a difference, but the team is mostly on its own and mostly get buffs only when i'm busy killing rogues and wizards.
I also always have some of the legit pvp potions.
Ok, so that's....quite good gear, I'd say. Better than the majority of clerics, even if we restrict it to 60s only. Hell of a lot better than my stuff, that's for sure. I tip my hat to you.
However, more germane to the topic: if you rolled up in unenchanted PvP purps (or 'freshly dinged 60' blues/greens) I suspect you'd have a much, much harder time (I know I did -armour with stacked lifesteal? GENIUS). Do the same as a GF/TR/GWF/CW and you can more or less start melting faces -to a satisfying if not spectacular degree- right off the bat.
We're primarily a support class, ultimately, and PvP isn't really balanced around support classes at all.
Well i'm still around 10.5k GS, so if it's what a cleric needs to be on par with other classes, then be it. Many rogues have more GS than me anyway.
And for the record, a proof that clerics don't suck in pvp. I did it for you 1h ago, guys! :cool:
Why do people keep posting screenshots of the scoreboard as if that's proof of something? You want to prove that the cleric class isn't weak in PvP then do some premades against other good premades (e.g., against DPS with perfect vorpals and 7 greater tenes where you get bursted 100-0 in 2 seconds) and show me video proof of you carrying your own weight, and by that i mean doing as well as or better than any other class if you were to be replaced by them. The sad truth is it's far better to replace a cleric with literally any other class (except maybe a CW, which is also a weak class) and your team will be better off for it. Clerics don't do enough burst healing or have enough crowd control to really compete in high-end PvP. Yes, you can do very well against pugs if you are a better player than them and more geared than them, no one is debating that. However, as soon as you're up against players of equal gear and skill the glaring weakness of the cleric class becomes extremely apparent.
Oh, and before i forget the obligatory scoreboard images to 'prove' how 'strong' the cleric class is (herpderp, and yes, this is sarcasm):
Too bad, even though i dominate the scoreboard with zero deaths, i still think the cleric class is absurdly weak in comparison to the other classes -- scoreboard screenshots seriously prove nothing and mean nothing, stop posting them, please. Oh, and I can make this statement about clerics being weak compared to the other classes because i actually have every class at level 60 with at least equal gear as my cleric. The difference between the cleric class and a well-geared/played TR/GF/GWF is absolutely night and day, these three classes can completely carry games whereas clerics will just hold back the maximum potential of any team.
I can do kills, unless rogues give the last hit, and it happens quite a lot.
And yes, the scoreboard is meaningful, it means a well played clerics can get the top tier rewards, which is all we should care about. I'm not talking about weird premades in which you have a team of 5 clerics against a team of 5 tanks... :rolleyes:
It's true that a cleric can get top score but only if they significantly outplay everyone else (or try the hardest or care the most about getting top score). I can effortlessly (i.e., without even thinking about it or trying to get it) get the top score in literally 95% of every PvP game i've ever done on my TR. Guess how many times i effortlessly get top score on my cleric? Zero times. Zero times out thousands of games have i got top score on my cleric without trying. Since you seem to care so much about getting top score and the best reward, do you think it's fair that a cleric has to work at least three times as hard as a TR to get top score? If there's even a remotely competent TR in your party you will NEVER get top score. Never. It's literally impossible with how the scoring system works since a TR can easily kill-steal with stealth --> lashing blade and get the +50 kill points and the +100/50 bonus points per kill. Clerics can only reliably kill steal with their daily and even that sucks because of how slow it is and how easy it is to dodge/avoid. Clerics also can't back-cap because it takes them so long to win a 1v1 that by the time they kill one person another enemy has showed up or your team shows up to get points as well (so that means you wasted 1 minute wining a 1v1 just so your team can show up for 5 seconds and get the same point reward as you).
The fact is, clerics are not only weak in top-tier premade vs premade games, but they get shafted when it comes to getting top score in pug games as well.