Getting rid of the ratings won't help anything. I assume they're there primarily for the system and for extremely lazy players, so all you win by removing them is making Cryptic either lose the current sorting/best list we currently have or they come up with a new metric. And obsessive authors will continue to obsess, but instead of over ratings it will be over the content of the reviews or their number of plays.
A positive only rating system would actually hurt the current system as it would then become more difficult for a player to easily distinguish between a quest that has been played less and a quest that most players didn't like. Currently this is only true if the players who didn't like it didn't even bother to finish/review. And again, obsessive authors would still have number of likes, reviews, and plays to obsess over.
Genre tabs or tags also won't work well if it's only up to the author to decide them. If either is added there needs to be a system in place to auto-adjust poorly designated quests or else it will quickly become just as useful as the current search but with even more frustration. And that system would be gamed, creating something new for obsessive authors to obsess over.
I think the best thing Cryptic could do, that's simple, is to remove the daily and event until they can come up with better game incentives for players to do foundry quests. This would eliminate a lot of the have and have not-ITIS that's going on which creates most of the personality clashes.
Yeh, its just a shame that how you feel about it itsn't how everyone rates. Like I said above. Just doesn't work out in the real world. Too many temptations for abuse, and it is abused. A lot. It needs to go.
If you actually look at ratings objectively, I can't see how anyone could come to the conclusion that the general player base is anything but fair...generous even. You guys may be pissing on each other's work, but it isn't something we, the audience, tend to do.
@Zoiks. Hells man, how many hours do you think there are in a day? "Extremely lazy" because as a player of a DnD game, I may actually find it of some use to know what my fellow DnD gamers are currently enjoying. It must be that same extreme laziness that has be spending hours in 'beta hell' so you guys can get out of it. Way to disrespect your audience.
@Zoiks. Hells man, how many hours do you think there are in a day? "Extremely lazy" because as a player of a DnD game, I may actually find it of some use to know what my fellow DnD gamers are currently enjoying. It must be that same extreme laziness that has be spending hours in 'beta hell' so you guys can get out of it. Way to disrespect your audience.
I was referring to SOLELY using the ratings to choose a quest to play. If you feel that's not a lazy way of choosing a quest to take then we'll just have to agree to disagree. Personally I consider it to be, as I said, extremely lazy, and a terrible way to choose quests since ratings are rarely correct in my experience.
Ratings in combination with at least skimming reviews and the description I wouldn't consider lazy.
Don't Panic.
Okay, Panic.
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ellindar1Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
If you actually look at ratings objectively, I can't see how anyone could come to the conclusion that the general player base is anything but fair...generous even. You guys may be pissing on each other's work, but it isn't something we, the audience, tend to do.
@Zoiks. Hells man, how many hours do you think there are in a day? "Extremely lazy" because as a player of a DnD game, I may actually find it of some use to know what my fellow DnD gamers are currently enjoying. It must be that same extreme laziness that has be spending hours in 'beta hell' so you guys can get out of it. Way to disrespect your audience.
Omg dude you MUST be joking lol. I am not even going to bother point to all the threads of actual factual 1 star troll reviews people get from the general player base lol. I will let dzogen apoc or chili educate you there. I dont know what world you are living in but can I live there too? Lol
Grr ellindar, please read again. 1 star reviews do not negate the fact that players are generally (bold, underline) fair with their ratings.
@zoiks. Yeah, I tend to use the rating hand in hand with player comments and my own profound common sense
Right, I can agree with that... but what you don't understand is that makes zero difference to anyone with quests with under 500 plays... which is like 95% of the quests out there. lol. The reason being, is that one single troll, or a few, will bring the newer quest down so low in rating its off the lists. Since there is no way to search for quests by categories, the only single way to achieve plays is to have an extremely high score and stay near the top of the new list for the entire time your quest is eligible to be on that list. Once it goes off the new list if its not on the best, your plays drop so drastically its almost comical. And trust me, I know all this for a fact, as I did the experiment with Melee Magthere my daily quest.
The ratings just emphasize the fact that the only quests getting plays are the highest rating quests with gazillions of plays that can't be effected anymore by the odd 1 star troll. Its just the way it is, regardless of how well meaning 'most' of the player base is.
I think the old saying goes... the rich just get richer.
For authors looking for exposure for their new quests, a couple of 1-star bombs really will relegate their quest to obscurity.
For authors looking for exposure and plays, keeping their rating high is the equivalent of paying some SEO firm a hundred grand to keep you on the front page of Google, because the majority of people won't even click to page 2.
Obviously not all authors work in that manner (I'm one of the odd ones that doesn't, for example), but for those that do, fighting the 1-star trolls is a huge priority.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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derpaderpistMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
First off, I'd like to note, this is not a "boohoo, whoa is me, everything sucks, someone pay attention to me" thread. This isn't directed at Cryptic and the bugs that hinder us, or the limitations, or even that the Foundry goes down more often than Michael Douglas.
No, this is a thread directed at us, the community. Never in my life have I seen such pandering, such backstabbing, suck butt-kissing, such name calling, all out hatred and low-life activities as I have here. Yeah, sometimes it can be entertaining, and hey, I'm no angel, I've been caught up in the drama plenty myself.
But seriously, people, get over it. Get over yourselves. We need to build each other up, not knock each other down. So what if you disagree with someone, get the **** over it and grow up. Don't like someone? Don't respond to their threads, no need to comment to throw some snide remark. Someone criticized your quest? Boohoo, don't put your quest into public domain.
You're quest got 1-star ratings? Big freaking deal, you're still getting plays. Someone sent you a message saying that your quest needs a lot of work? Awesome, let them be jerks. Don't go run their quest just to purposely one star them.
Seriously, this is worse than high school. You people (broad generalization, some of you are awesome) need to grow up. Support each other. Don't like someone? Pretend they don't exist. There is no need for you to go posting on a thread laughing because someone is having problems, no need to bash someone because they didn't like your quest.
And for the record, if you are one of the worthless people who bribe, buy your reviews, and then go out of your way to give others one star reviews, then you are the biggest problem here. Seriously, stop worrying about how your e-peen looks and grow up.
Now, that being said, I would like to comment on two people I see posting on the forums: Zovya and Lovepeas. You two are the kindest, most uplifting and positive people I have met. If the rest of the community could be like you, this would be an amazing place.
Unfortunately, we have people starting threads to call others out, posting in general discussion to BUY 5-star reviews, people one-star bombing other quests, breaking the rules, and making this one of the WORST communities I have ever belonged to.
So, what does this mean for me? Well, I'm not quitting, as that would go against my anti-"bring attention to myself" point I made earlier. I'm sticking around, and I'm going to make some quests. Want to play them? Awesome, play them. Want to bash them because you disagree with me or because I made you angry somehow on the forums? Awesome, go right ahead. Want to start a campaign making others downvote difficult quests for stacking encounters, or putting in lots of reading, or mazes, or puzzles, or anything else you don't like? Be my guest. I'll play your quests, and I will rate them fairly with a rating they deserve. I will earn my reviews the right way, I will do what I can to BUILD this community up, instead of trying everything in my power to bring it down.
You people make me sick. Try to rise up and be the bigger men (women? people? authors?) instead of being the lowest common denominator.
oreally ?!??!!?!
" We live in an age of the cheaply made, disposable, high priced junk. " - theunwarshed
That's not a flaw in the system, and doesn't mean the system doesn't work.
Oh. I'd say it is, from my point of view.
Don't you think that all quests created should have a chance to be played, regardless if someone with a different taste than the author played it first? (Or say, the first 5 times?)
Rescue in Rainwall, ID: NW-DRQK3HKVV Chef's Challenge, ID: NW-DGTKIBVF3 The Dreamfall Campaign, ID: NWS-DEB7Z9IJC(3 Quests) Ogre: For the win!, ID: NW-DR5O3PD63 Cults and Culture, ID: NW-DCLSFYSQ2
I'm not sure that I should even take this denial of ratings being meaningful seriously, so I will just say that as a player I agree with Vanor. I like the ratings system, it is a very useful gauge that cuts through a lot of time. And still I manage to retain my own mind and judge for myself what is and what is not enjoyable. Fancy that!
Some of you seriously need to trust the general player base more.
I don't understand how you mean that an "endorse or not"-system with tags will affect this negatively?
You will still be totally free to play quests that are heavily endorsed and don't play those quests that don't have many endorsements yet.
As for the player base... Everyone is different, but the current system does not allow for that.
Just an example: I tried a quest from the top (not THE top) of the "Best"-tab yesterday and I can honestly say that I did not enjoy it at all.
Rescue in Rainwall, ID: NW-DRQK3HKVV Chef's Challenge, ID: NW-DGTKIBVF3 The Dreamfall Campaign, ID: NWS-DEB7Z9IJC(3 Quests) Ogre: For the win!, ID: NW-DR5O3PD63 Cults and Culture, ID: NW-DCLSFYSQ2
Because if making the system more resistance to troll/grief reviews means the system is less useful to the player base, it may not matter how many upvotes you get, if no one bothers to play foundry missions, because it's too hard to find good ones.
No one has provided an argument as to how a new system (even the one proposed lately in this thread) would affect this negatively. Once again: You will still be able to avoid quests that have not yet been endorsed.
Heck, there might even be a filter where you could enter how many endorsements you want your quests to have at minimum!
While I understand why you all want to see changes. I will say that letting the authors decide how the system works is most likely a bad idea.
I agree to that I don't either think that only authors should decide it, however most of the regular player base doesn't care or doesn't seem to care about these things so naturally most of the posts you see here will be from authors.
Those that care for the issue and acknowledge it then have atleast two choices: Make it a public question and advertise it to the rest of the masses, or try to find a solution themselves.
Maybe we should move this thread or create a thread about it in another forum?
At the moment, I (and I do mean myself when I write so, even if I think others will agree) think that we've found a worthy replacement for the current system, we're just going over details which should really be Cryptic's job should they choose to change the current system.
Rescue in Rainwall, ID: NW-DRQK3HKVV Chef's Challenge, ID: NW-DGTKIBVF3 The Dreamfall Campaign, ID: NWS-DEB7Z9IJC(3 Quests) Ogre: For the win!, ID: NW-DR5O3PD63 Cults and Culture, ID: NW-DCLSFYSQ2
I guess "thin" was perhaps the wrong way to describe it. The story in bill's tavern is minimalist; you have managed to strip everything down to its essential quality and achieve an elegant simplicity. Like I said, adding more story to the quest would not make it better; the only thing that I would change about the quest is to make it fit lore.
Which, honestly, would not take more then changing few lines. D&D is such a huge and strange place almost anything can happen. Even 'Secret Agent 34' is plausible within the forgotten realms lore. The Red Wizards of They are descendants of wizards fleeing Atlantis. Six teenagers from Brooklyn fell through a dimensional gate at the bottom of a haunted roller coaster, and were then chased by the dark goddess Tiamat for three years before finally returning to Earth on the night they left.
You could have easily had Seal team 6 come through a magical portal at the bottom of a haunted roller coaster; their mission to detonate a nuke, in an attempt to close the gate...
Strict adherence to obscure D&D lore, and all the zany humor your quests are famous for.
><
Thanks makes sense.
So I reran your quest and read through it this time. Good stuff. I even streamed it but I am not really set up for streaming as my upload speed is wretched (which you can tell in quality and screen load speed) & didn't do voice over. But if you want to see the run thru...here it is: http://www.twitch.tv/dzogen/b/429299273
Comments
A positive only rating system would actually hurt the current system as it would then become more difficult for a player to easily distinguish between a quest that has been played less and a quest that most players didn't like. Currently this is only true if the players who didn't like it didn't even bother to finish/review. And again, obsessive authors would still have number of likes, reviews, and plays to obsess over.
Genre tabs or tags also won't work well if it's only up to the author to decide them. If either is added there needs to be a system in place to auto-adjust poorly designated quests or else it will quickly become just as useful as the current search but with even more frustration. And that system would be gamed, creating something new for obsessive authors to obsess over.
I think the best thing Cryptic could do, that's simple, is to remove the daily and event until they can come up with better game incentives for players to do foundry quests. This would eliminate a lot of the have and have not-ITIS that's going on which creates most of the personality clashes.
Okay, Panic.
Expedition to the Barrier Peaks
Ah, was looking for one in Foundry. Heheh.
If you actually look at ratings objectively, I can't see how anyone could come to the conclusion that the general player base is anything but fair...generous even. You guys may be pissing on each other's work, but it isn't something we, the audience, tend to do.
@Zoiks. Hells man, how many hours do you think there are in a day? "Extremely lazy" because as a player of a DnD game, I may actually find it of some use to know what my fellow DnD gamers are currently enjoying. It must be that same extreme laziness that has be spending hours in 'beta hell' so you guys can get out of it. Way to disrespect your audience.
Sorry
And FR furthermore goes along with it with the traveling to different settings and so on.
Wicks and Things: NW-DI4FMZRR4 : The Fenwick merchant family has lost a caravan! Can you help?
Beggar's Hollow: NW-DR6YG4J2L : Someone, or something, has stolen away many of the Fenwicks' children! Can you find out what happened to them?
Into the Fen Wood: NW-DL89DRG7B : Enter the heart of the forest. Can you discover the secret of the Fen Wood?
Yeah throw in Spelljammer and you have in some ways the same thing as GURPS.
Wicks and Things: NW-DI4FMZRR4 : The Fenwick merchant family has lost a caravan! Can you help?
Beggar's Hollow: NW-DR6YG4J2L : Someone, or something, has stolen away many of the Fenwicks' children! Can you find out what happened to them?
Into the Fen Wood: NW-DL89DRG7B : Enter the heart of the forest. Can you discover the secret of the Fen Wood?
I was referring to SOLELY using the ratings to choose a quest to play. If you feel that's not a lazy way of choosing a quest to take then we'll just have to agree to disagree. Personally I consider it to be, as I said, extremely lazy, and a terrible way to choose quests since ratings are rarely correct in my experience.
Ratings in combination with at least skimming reviews and the description I wouldn't consider lazy.
Okay, Panic.
Omg dude you MUST be joking lol. I am not even going to bother point to all the threads of actual factual 1 star troll reviews people get from the general player base lol. I will let dzogen apoc or chili educate you there. I dont know what world you are living in but can I live there too? Lol
@zoiks. Yeah, I tend to use the rating hand in hand with player comments and my own profound common sense
Right, I can agree with that... but what you don't understand is that makes zero difference to anyone with quests with under 500 plays... which is like 95% of the quests out there. lol. The reason being, is that one single troll, or a few, will bring the newer quest down so low in rating its off the lists. Since there is no way to search for quests by categories, the only single way to achieve plays is to have an extremely high score and stay near the top of the new list for the entire time your quest is eligible to be on that list. Once it goes off the new list if its not on the best, your plays drop so drastically its almost comical. And trust me, I know all this for a fact, as I did the experiment with Melee Magthere my daily quest.
The ratings just emphasize the fact that the only quests getting plays are the highest rating quests with gazillions of plays that can't be effected anymore by the odd 1 star troll. Its just the way it is, regardless of how well meaning 'most' of the player base is.
I think the old saying goes... the rich just get richer.
For authors looking for exposure and plays, keeping their rating high is the equivalent of paying some SEO firm a hundred grand to keep you on the front page of Google, because the majority of people won't even click to page 2.
Obviously not all authors work in that manner (I'm one of the odd ones that doesn't, for example), but for those that do, fighting the 1-star trolls is a huge priority.
oreally ?!??!!?!
Oh. I'd say it is, from my point of view.
Don't you think that all quests created should have a chance to be played, regardless if someone with a different taste than the author played it first? (Or say, the first 5 times?)
Chef's Challenge, ID: NW-DGTKIBVF3
The Dreamfall Campaign, ID: NWS-DEB7Z9IJC (3 Quests)
Ogre: For the win!, ID: NW-DR5O3PD63
Cults and Culture, ID: NW-DCLSFYSQ2
I don't understand how you mean that an "endorse or not"-system with tags will affect this negatively?
You will still be totally free to play quests that are heavily endorsed and don't play those quests that don't have many endorsements yet.
As for the player base... Everyone is different, but the current system does not allow for that.
Just an example: I tried a quest from the top (not THE top) of the "Best"-tab yesterday and I can honestly say that I did not enjoy it at all.
Chef's Challenge, ID: NW-DGTKIBVF3
The Dreamfall Campaign, ID: NWS-DEB7Z9IJC (3 Quests)
Ogre: For the win!, ID: NW-DR5O3PD63
Cults and Culture, ID: NW-DCLSFYSQ2
No one has provided an argument as to how a new system (even the one proposed lately in this thread) would affect this negatively. Once again: You will still be able to avoid quests that have not yet been endorsed.
Heck, there might even be a filter where you could enter how many endorsements you want your quests to have at minimum!
I agree to that I don't either think that only authors should decide it, however most of the regular player base doesn't care or doesn't seem to care about these things so naturally most of the posts you see here will be from authors.
Those that care for the issue and acknowledge it then have atleast two choices: Make it a public question and advertise it to the rest of the masses, or try to find a solution themselves.
Maybe we should move this thread or create a thread about it in another forum?
At the moment, I (and I do mean myself when I write so, even if I think others will agree) think that we've found a worthy replacement for the current system, we're just going over details which should really be Cryptic's job should they choose to change the current system.
Chef's Challenge, ID: NW-DGTKIBVF3
The Dreamfall Campaign, ID: NWS-DEB7Z9IJC (3 Quests)
Ogre: For the win!, ID: NW-DR5O3PD63
Cults and Culture, ID: NW-DCLSFYSQ2
Thanks makes sense.
So I reran your quest and read through it this time. Good stuff. I even streamed it but I am not really set up for streaming as my upload speed is wretched (which you can tell in quality and screen load speed) & didn't do voice over. But if you want to see the run thru...here it is: http://www.twitch.tv/dzogen/b/429299273
Bill's Tavern | The 27th Level | Secret Agent 34