Giving someone 1 star as a way to troll or grief them is a problem. But that doesn't mean that giving someone 1 star makes you a troll. I've played some truly, truly awful missions in STO which richly deserved 1 star.
There needs to be some sort of way of rating missions so people can sort the good from the bad, without that the Foundry has no real purpose because you'll never be able to find the good ones.
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ellindar1Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Giving someone 1 star as a way to troll or grief them is a problem. But that doesn't mean that giving someone 1 star makes you a troll. I've played some truly, truly awful missions in STO which richly deserved 1 star.
There needs to be some sort of way of rating missions so people can sort the good from the bad, without that the Foundry has no real purpose because you'll never be able to find the good ones.
There may be some that deserve it, I just don't agree its the way it should be handled. Remove the ratings but keep the feedback. I'd rather see a positive environment instead of a negative one that promotes author vs author and simple griefing.
There may be some that deserve it, I just don't agree its the way it should be handled.
How else can you handle it? It's not like Cryptic invented the 5 star rating system. It's been around for some time and it works. If a quest is bad, then it deserved to be rated as such. This is doing a service to our fellow players, by helping them avoid an unenjoyable quest that they may of otherwise wasted their time on.
If getting a 1 star hurts the authors feelings, that's their problem not mine. They should of spent more time polishing the mission, asking for help, having people play test it before publishing it.
negative one that promotes author vs author and simple griefing.
The system doesn't inherently promote such a thing.
And this helps the player base just how? What does 6 thumbs up mean? Other then 6 out of X people liked it. If the number of total reviews is shown, it's not that hard to figure out the avg. 6 thumbs up out 25 plays says pretty clearly that the quest isn't that good.
If however you don't see the number of plays, then the number of thumbs up doesn't mean anything, short of a fairly large number like say 100+.
The Thumbs Up system doesn't really change anything, it's effectively nothing more then a semantic difference, and one in which not giving a Thumbs Up is no different then a 1 star rating, because you've exchanged a 5 star system for a 1 star system.
I think the statement that this community is depraved is a little extreme, from my own experience I would say that this community has not been particularly supportive.
I started here in Apr/ May and I just made a few small quests that didn't take themselves so seriously. No lore, I thought they were a little silly and quirky.
They saw some mainstream success and since then from time to time I started finding myself the subject of rant threads by other authors on these forums. Authors claiming that the general audience are idiots & have no taste, etc. That the best tab quests aren't good and their stuff is. That my stuff is popular just because they're short.
I was perplexed. Almost never - great job. Or - hey man you got some advice how to get on the best tab? (which I would have been happy to help) That was almost non-existent. Honestly, my sense of this community quickly became that it was jealous and elitist.
Now...another thing that seems to make some people here go bonkers is I have run a few contests. I only started doing this after my actual quests had made it to best tab and they had achieved some popularity. None of my real quests ever used a promotion. Also, not one of my contests did I ever keep up permanently as a real quest. They were limited time entry forms and for promotional purposes only & a way to reward my subscribers. There's nothing currently in the TOS that says you can't do this and as an ad guy struck me as a rather smart idea.
I realize these contests rub some people the wrong way and I see whole threads are devoted to them. But think about it, if it were my intention to be a jerk, today I could take over all of the real estate on the best page and just sit there. Now that would hurt authors by pushing them off the page, and I am not interested in hurting anyone. This last promotion lasted maybe a few hours at most and I quickly voluntarily deleted them so it wouldn't have any meaningful negative impact.
Finally the last thing that people seem to have against me of late - one star reviews. Wow, people go bonkers there - you'd think someone had been physically assaulted. Yes, I have one starred people who have bashed me first. If I wanted to hide it, I wouldn't have left a comment. Petty? Most likely. But I have been wrongly & falsely accused of this quite a bit in the past on these forums. And I have never used an alt to give a one star. And you guys (you know who you are) are super hypocritical about this - what about all the one stars I get from other authors and their alts first. I guarantee you that any I have given out is a miniscule fraction of what you have given me.
So I don't feel the need to apologize here, I don't see anything particularly terrible about a one star. One stars can be helpful. Secret Agent 34 got a ton of bad reviews when it launched, and rather than cry I used them to make changes that got it into the best tab.
And dude, really... you've got to know you're opening yourself up to it by bashing me publicly and one-starring me first, don't you think?
To me, you're just asking for a review trade, but in a not positive way. And that's fine.
So that's been my experience & perspective. If I've offended anyone in this forum or somehow interfered with their gaming experience along the way I apologize.
Finally, don't forget - a little depravity and flaming in these forums can be a bit entertaining, so try not to remove all of it. If you think about it, all in all the drama has sort of ended up being kind of a wash...As authors we know that any good story needs just a little conflict to make it interesting...
If getting a 1 star hurts the authors feelings, that's their problem not mine. They should of spent more time polishing the mission, asking for help, having people play test it before publishing it.
This is feedback from a knowledgeable individual who clearly understand the intricacies of the tools that foundry authors use to create quests.
Everyone, listen to this guy, and make sure you have someone else playtest your quest BEFORE you publish it.
Indeed. I’m trying to keep away from review trading too, I get the feeling there’s an unspoken understanding as to what it really means.
I think that's a little unfair. Not everyone who does review trade threads are doing a "you 5-star me, I'll 5-star you" deal. The threads made by authors specifically about their own quests, and that offer to review other quests in return have been for the most part very fair. I've given mostly 4-3 star reviews (and one 2-star review, that I can recall) specifically from review trades, and I've received unfavorable reviews from review trades. When I've given 5 star reviews, it's because I truly believed that they deserved 5 stars. Granted, a lot of my early reviews that I gave were more favorable (4 instead of 3) because I didn't really understand what you were capable of doing with Foundry quests.
Some of the best feedback I've received were from review trades and/or video reviews. You can get a lot more information from a forum post than the few characters you get from the in-game reviews. Some of the best feedback you're going to get is from other Foundry authors, because they generally know what you're working with. The thing is, they only have so much time to review other people's work because: A.) They're working on their own quests, which is quite time-consuming, B.)They need to try to get plays for their own quest and are working towards that, and C.) Real life obligations. A review trade thread helps all parties, assuming honest feedback.
I'll put this out there, since there's this mentality of "why does this person get all these plays when my quest is clearly better?": In terms of story/design/etc, my only quest that's out currently is not very good at all. I think the reason that it's gotten so many plays and favorable reviews is because of the following: Dialogue choice/ability to roleplay their character, quest length, but most of all, because of my actually going out there and trying to advertise the existence of my quest (review threads). It wasn't until maybe 3-4 weeks after the initial posting that it seriously started getting a lot of plays. It got bumped into the Best tab for a few weeks on and off (I personally don't believe that it's best of material), and plays skyrocketed. I didn't need to advertise it anymore, and the majority of reviews were extremely favorable. It's sitting at 2000+ reviews, and is now mostly stagnant due to no longer being on any tab and, simply put, because there are much better quests out there of similar length.
I'm not in a guild, only 2 of my RL friends were interested in this game (and have stopped playing altogether several weeks ago), and I've never used bots. I still say that the biggest problem is not the star rating system. It's that we have a crummy means of searching for Foundry quests, and it's very hard to get any visibility for them.
This is feedback from a knowledgeable individual who clearly understand the intricacies of the tools that foundry authors use to create quests.
My point, which you apparently chose to ignore, is that sometimes a quest published in the foundry is simply bad, and deserves to be rated as such.
Because it was quite clear that in STO there were a number of missions published that clearly weren't tested or polished nearly enough to be released yet. The mere fact that you published something doesn't mean that you deserve praise, or a good review.
But hey, feel free to post nothing but an ad-hominid attack if that's what makes you feel better. It surely doesn't help your argument any.
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cipher9nemoMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
I think that's a little unfair. Not everyone who does review trade threads are doing a "you 5-star me, I'll 5-star you" deal. The threads made by authors specifically about their own quests, and that offer to review other quests in return have been for the most part very fair.
(...)
I'll put this out there, since there's this mentality of "why does this person get all these plays when my quest is clearly better?": In terms of story/design/etc, my only quest that's out currently is not very good at all.
Indeed. Plenty of reasonable authors here without those expectations, and plenty of authors with special snowflake personalities.
How else can you handle it? It's not like Cryptic invented the 5 star rating system. It's been around for some time and it works. If a quest is bad, then it deserved to be rated as such. This is doing a service to our fellow players, by helping them avoid an unenjoyable quest that they may of otherwise wasted their time on.
If getting a 1 star hurts the authors feelings, that's their problem not mine. They should of spent more time polishing the mission, asking for help, having people play test it before publishing it.
The system doesn't inherently promote such a thing.
And this helps the player base just how? What does 6 thumbs up mean? Other then 6 out of X people liked it. If the number of total reviews is shown, it's not that hard to figure out the avg. 6 thumbs up out 25 plays says pretty clearly that the quest isn't that good.
If however you don't see the number of plays, then the number of thumbs up doesn't mean anything, short of a fairly large number like say 100+.
The Thumbs Up system doesn't really change anything, it's effectively nothing more then a semantic difference, and one in which not giving a Thumbs Up is no different then a 1 star rating, because you've exchanged a 5 star system for a 1 star system.
I just disagree with you completely. I don't feel the need to see what someone else thinks is the best. But more than that, I absolutely think the system promotes 1 star trolls who do it for fun and also for author vs author 1 star griefing. Its your right to disagree with that perspective also. Its what makes the world go around.
I can tell you this, most quests just need the chance to get enough reviews that the 1 star griefers can't really effect the score. at 2300 reviews and almost 4k plays mine daily sits over 4 stars now and that was after surviving the onslaught of several groups of 1 star buddies. So what I'm saying is that 1 star trolling hugely hurts a quest that doesn't have many plays, so when its NOT deserved, and lets be honest, you know when it does or doesn't deserve it.... then it almost devastating and allows griefers to control the placement of quests that aren't their own.
The system is broken, and that's all I will say on it. Feel free to have your own opinion on it, but this one is mine.
Author 1 (0 plays) Author 2, you are disgusting. Trading for reviews. Go to Hell
Author 2 (6 plays) I'm sorry you're mad. I reviewed your quest, and gave it five stars. Hope that helps you get more plays.
Author 1 (1 play) That's even worse, giving out a dishonest review. Shame on you. I gave you one star because you're a jerk.
Author 2 (7 plays) Wow, I take my five stars back. 1 star. No one is going to play your quest with THAT attitude.
Author 3 (0 plays) Author 2 is an A-hole for giving Author 1 a bad rating. I'm giving him two stars because even though his quest is the best I have played, he's a horrible person, and should be banned.
Author 4 (28542 plays) Wow, Author 2 has made a really awesome quest. Five stars. Since I'm so successful, and have so much extra AD laying around, I'm going to have a contest.
Author 2 (9 plays) Thanks for the encouragement Author 4! Your contest seems like a good idea, it might help me get more favorable reviews after those jerks down-voted me. I think I'll try it out.
Author 1 (2 plays) Author 4 is ruining the game! How dare he hog the best list with his contests?!
Author 3 (1 play) Author 2 is worse! Buying good ratings! He should be banned!
Author 2 (18 plays) Look, I'm just trying to get back the adjusted rating points I lost from you guys trolling me when I was trying to help you. Hate me if you want. I don't care.
Author 4 (29132 plays) Authors 1 and 3 should stop being so jealous and petty..
Author 2 (29 plays) I agree with Author 4.
Author 5 (800 plays) Play my quest and knock ogres off a cliff! Derp!
Author 2 (41 plays) Why hasn't anyone said anything about Author 5?
Author 1 (3 plays) Author 2 is being an Elitist jerk! Maybe your quest sucks and people would rather knock ogres off a cliff! I rated Author 5's quest five stars, by the way.
Author 3 (2 plays) Me too! Knocking ogres off the cliff is the best map ever!
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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xhritMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Yes, I have one starred people who have bashed me first.
I am sorry, but how did I bash you in any way?
Criticism of your quest is not criticism of you.
I said that your quest was "technically and thematically complete" and even though I despise lore breaking comedy quests that I was not going to give it a 1 star based on that one minor setback.
I hate Jazz music, but I know Miles Davis is a 5 star jazz musician.
I hate comedy quests, but Dzogen makes some 5 star comedy quests.
Also, my one complaint about bills tavern ( that it is linear ) is absolutely true. You could have asked me what changes I think you could make to your quest to make it not so linear, but instead you went and gave my non linear quest a 1 star review, criticizing it as linear.
My other complaint was not really a complaint, but more of an observation. The story in bills tavern is thin. It is a hack and slash quest. One of my favorite quests in the foundry is a hack and slash quest with almost no story whatsoever. It is called Ork Fortress, and the story is you go to an ork fortress and kill all the orks inside.
The story of bill's tavern is you go to bill's tavern, and kill all the brain eating zombies inside. The story is pretty thin. You could have asked me what changes I think you could make to the story to make it a bit more fleshed out, but honestly I do not think the quest needs any more story, just like I do not think Ork Fortress needs any more story.
--
My only complaint about your QUESTS is when they break lore.
My only complaint about YOU is when you act like a petty child.
Saying that is totally worth you 1 staring all my quests.
Which is one indictment of Cryptic -- they've had 2 years of this crud going on with STO to learn from.
This is the thing I keep saying about the constant outages of the Foundry after Tuesday Update, they (Cryptic / PWE) seem toatlly incapable of learning from their own mistakes.
Well, the AD/AD exploit was in STO months before it was here.
They had the "change character" functionality in STO months ago but it wasn't in this even in Beta.
This doesn't bode well at all for the long-term viability (eve medium-term for that matter) of this game.
They really shouldn't be any need to ever make the same mistake twice.
1. Do not post non-constructive walls of text. It's a pain for the forum goers to read and some of them don't contribute to the discussion at hand.
2. Do not respond to a clearly inappropriate post. We have to moderate not only the inappropriate post, but everyone who quoted it just to laugh at it. Use the "Report Post" function--and report anonymously. Do not post that you have reported another person's post, as that is inflammatory and not only exposes yourself to attacks, but is a violation of RoC in itself.
ROLL TIDE ROLL
Great Weapon Fighter: Because when is today not a good day to die?
PC and PS4 player. Proud Guildmaster for PS4 Team Fencebane. Rank 5 Officer for PC Team Fencebane. Visit us at http://fencebane.shivtr.com
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runis12Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
I'm surprised that people aren't liking this idea more. I'd love for the competitive element to begone. The removal of the rating system will most likely not happen though. All I'm hoping for right now is that the Foundry Search at least be fixed/revamped. I think that will calm a lot of the frustration of trying to get plays. As for the snarky threads/posts- they are easily ignored (though some are entertaining to read...). :rolleyes:
I have to question this basic premise. The star rating should not be seen as a competitive element. It should be seen as a way of letting the people playing the quests know what the avg person thinks of it. I'm sorry but if you feel that somehow having a lower rating then someone else means you have lost... You have the wrong point of view of the whole thing.
Speaking as someone who played a Lot of foundry missions in STO. If there's not some sort of rating system that lets me get an idea of how good/bad the quest is at a glance, then the whole purpose of the foundry suffers. Because myself and I'd say most other people won't bother using it. I'm not going to spend 10-15 minutes looking at the comments of every quest trying to find one I want to play.
First off, I'd like to note, this is not a "boohoo, whoa is me, everything sucks, someone pay attention to me" thread. This isn't directed at Cryptic and the bugs that hinder us, or the limitations, or even that the Foundry goes down more often than Michael Douglas.
No, this is a thread directed at us, the community. Never in my life have I seen such pandering, such backstabbing, suck butt-kissing, such name calling, all out hatred and low-life activities as I have here. Yeah, sometimes it can be entertaining, and hey, I'm no angel, I've been caught up in the drama plenty myself.
But seriously, people, get over it. Get over yourselves. We need to build each other up, not knock each other down. So what if you disagree with someone, get the **** over it and grow up. Don't like someone? Don't respond to their threads, no need to comment to throw some snide remark. Someone criticized your quest? Boohoo, don't put your quest into public domain.
You're quest got 1-star ratings? Big freaking deal, you're still getting plays. Someone sent you a message saying that your quest needs a lot of work? Awesome, let them be jerks. Don't go run their quest just to purposely one star them.
Seriously, this is worse than high school. You people (broad generalization, some of you are awesome) need to grow up. Support each other. Don't like someone? Pretend they don't exist. There is no need for you to go posting on a thread laughing because someone is having problems, no need to bash someone because they didn't like your quest.
And for the record, if you are one of the worthless people who bribe, buy your reviews, and then go out of your way to give others one star reviews, then you are the biggest problem here. Seriously, stop worrying about how your e-peen looks and grow up.
Now, that being said, I would like to comment on two people I see posting on the forums: Zovya and Lovepeas. You two are the kindest, most uplifting and positive people I have met. If the rest of the community could be like you, this would be an amazing place.
Unfortunately, we have people starting threads to call others out, posting in general discussion to BUY 5-star reviews, people one-star bombing other quests, breaking the rules, and making this one of the WORST communities I have ever belonged to.
So, what does this mean for me? Well, I'm not quitting, as that would go against my anti-"bring attention to myself" point I made earlier. I'm sticking around, and I'm going to make some quests. Want to play them? Awesome, play them. Want to bash them because you disagree with me or because I made you angry somehow on the forums? Awesome, go right ahead. Want to start a campaign making others downvote difficult quests for stacking encounters, or putting in lots of reading, or mazes, or puzzles, or anything else you don't like? Be my guest. I'll play your quests, and I will rate them fairly with a rating they deserve. I will earn my reviews the right way, I will do what I can to BUILD this community up, instead of trying everything in my power to bring it down.
You people make me sick. Try to rise up and be the bigger men (women? people? authors?) instead of being the lowest common denominator.
Me and my wife read this and nodded our heads pretty much all the way, she doesn't play much anymore because of this, and i pretty much keep my head down and get on with it, i would LOVE to be more involved with this community, a few select people i have met have been amazingly helpfull, and delightfully uplifting. I have been playing MMOs and Online games for 9 years now, met many people and been involved in many communities, and this happens everywhere! Mainly because a lot of people are very competitive and/or lazy and like to get thrills off getting attention through ways others work hard to do. A couple of months ago i made an online blog which spread round pretty fast and even got into some online community forums stating that there are two types of people on the internet, those who come out of their shells and let everyone see their true colours, open their arms to friendship and helping people, and brighten others days - whereas the other types of people use the internet and online gaming to escape from their realitys and portray theirselves as different people, because online you can be anyone!
A long post and a little off topic i know, but what i am generally saying is anywhere in the online community and in-real life, you will get people who have the NEED to be better then everyone else and will hammer those around them down to get it, my grandmother once said that the human race was not like this back in the 1940's , humans in general were not as needy for attention and competition, but nowadays because kids are brought up in the enviroment where they can get what they want, and be what they want, they do not like it when they are told no, or they can't have their way.
Of course it's not just the youth that are doing this, adults are too...allthough to state anything about the older community i need more evidence and statistics to say anything.
- I may not have worded this in the right way, i have trouble explaining myself sometimes, but this mainly stays on topic, i apologize if this unintentionally offends you, it is just my view and opinion towards the "Bad-crowds" -
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xhritMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
I'd rather have a search function that works so that I may find a quest I want to play, instead of looking at comments. Stars are unfortunately competitive, as "good" ratings = visibility to general audience atm.
I have to question this basic premise. The star rating should not be seen as a competitive element. It should be seen as a way of letting the people playing the quests know what the avg person thinks of it. I'm sorry but if you feel that somehow having a lower rating then someone else means you have lost... You have the wrong point of view of the whole thing.
Don't tell Runis; she doesn't treat it competitively - But tell everyone else who does. Tell everyone who cares whether or not their quest is on the Best page, or who cares whether or not Cryptic selects their quest to be featured. Tell everyone who gets butthurt when their quest gets a 1-star.
A long post and a little off topic i know, but what i am generally saying is anywhere in the online community and in-real life, you will get people who have the NEED to be better then everyone else and will hammer those around them down to get it, my grandmother once said that the human race was not like this back in the 1940's , humans in general were not as needy for attention and competition, but nowadays because kids are brought up in the enviroment where they can get what they want, and be what they want, they do not like it when they are told no, or they can't have their way.
People were just as needy, attention-hungry, and competitive as they are now back in the 40's, and any time before or afterward. The difference is that back then if you wanted something, you worked for it, or killed someone else, and took it. People nowadays just want to be able to whine, and get what they want. That's why you have people with kids they don't take care of getting five grand a year in negative income tax returns, blowing i on big screen TV's, and vacations, and getting fat as a hog on food stamps eating steak every night, while working people are living off of Hot Pockets, Ramen Noodles, or off-brand peanut butter crackers. That's why a loaf of bread costs more than a dollar. It would cost five cents, but since twenty people have to get a free loaf for every one person who earns their daily bread, the price gets inflated. Go to a country with almost no wheat production, where all these hand-outs are non-existent, and most of the bread is imported, you'll still be able to get it at five cents a loaf, from the same bread company, grown on the same farm.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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xhritMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
I'd rather have a search function that works so that I may find a quest I want to play, instead of looking at comments.
I'm curious, exactly how would that system work?
I would be all for a different system, provided it allows me to find quests that I would consider to be enjoyable without a huge amount of time and effort on my part. Clearly no system is going to be foolproof, but if you can come up with a better system then a 1-5 star rating, then I'd like to hear about it.
I would be all for a different system, provided it allows me to find quests that I would consider to be enjoyable without a huge amount of time and effort on my part. Clearly no system is going to be foolproof, but if you can come up with a better system then a 1-5 star rating, then I'd like to hear about it.
The problem is that you're sort of relying on a system that reflects the one that made a certain horribly written book the Best Seller... marketing rocketed that awful drivel to the top. Call it "housewife [stuff]" and have a bunch of people 5 star it... and even if it's horribly written and contains disgusting mentions of used feminine products... and you have a "best seller".
A much better system would be a tagging system that allows you to find quests according to what you like:
hack and slash
lore heavy
item recovery/ farming
etc.
Even books can be sorted according to "paranormal, historical, fictional, non-fictional" and sub-categories within that.
From there, yes, you can read reviews, but first, you have to be able to find the kind of thing that you like to begin with. Imagine if we treated books the way they treat foundry quests. You'd have to dig through the book with the nasty reference to bodily fluids to be able to (hopefully) eventually find your History Textbook for next college school year (for those in college, as an example).
Sure, keep the rating system if you must. But first and foremost, allow a better way to search for the type of quests you like.
Breaching the Swarm NW-DUXUHQWNP
Pick your side, take a stand, save--or kill--your former allies.
How about a few "categories" which you can put your quests under, such as "Humor", "Story" or "Arena" and then you can just click a button to receive suggestions from that category in the search function.
I'd say the quest content and genre is more important than the actual reviews, it'd save people a lot of time as well.
Instead of having ratings to promote, how about a system where you get suggestions based on what you played/endorsed last time?
"Since you played <Quest>, maybe you would also like to play <Quest>?"
or
"You endorsed <Quest>, would you also like to play <Quest> which is similar?"
Of course, this would mean that you'd have to remove the star-system and replace it with an endorse button instead as well as the ability to leave a comment.
I don't think anyone has all the answers, but I do think we all can contribute to the level that Cryptic can make something great from compromise based on our suggestions.
Rescue in Rainwall, ID: NW-DRQK3HKVV Chef's Challenge, ID: NW-DGTKIBVF3 The Dreamfall Campaign, ID: NWS-DEB7Z9IJC(3 Quests) Ogre: For the win!, ID: NW-DR5O3PD63 Cults and Culture, ID: NW-DCLSFYSQ2
Hehe, it seems me and nimmanu thought and posted about the same thing at the same time.
And you both are right on the money. But I would add not just a FEW categories. As MANY categories as we can get the better to narrow a search to just what you want.
Avg. Play Length RANGE (so you could set 15-20 if you want a daily)
along with all the other suggestions people could come up with.
This to me gets rid of a need for a star rating altogether, but I still think there should reviews allowed to be left.
Also, if there are 'exploit' maps, etc, no need for 1 stars, you simply report if you feel it needs to be reported and move on.
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runis12Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
but I still think there should reviews allowed to be left.
The idea of letting the author add tags to the quest that could be searched for could work, but does have some issues. First of all, that doesn't provide me the player with any idea of how how good the quest may or may not be.
I don't care if you think your quest is lore heavy, dialog heavy, and romantic, if the quest is bad.
Yes categories would help narrow down the type of quest you see in the list, but wouldn't do much to tell you what other peoples opinion of the quest is. There's also the issue of people putting as many tags as they can in order to get the quest to show up in as many lists as possible.
In order for a system to be useful, there needs to be some way for people get an idea of how good/bad the quest is without having to read 15+ reviews. I'm not going to spend 5+ minutes reading reviews for as many as 15 different quests to find out if that quest is worth playing or not.
I understand wanting to get rid of the 5 star rating, but I think people need to remember the star rating is there for the players and not the authors. I don't give reviews or ratings because I want to make the author feel warm and fuzzy or like I've slapped their face. I'm doing it to let other players know what I thought of the quest.
Make no mistake here. I don't give a rats backside if my 1 star rating hurts your feelings or not. Same goes for how good a 5 star rating makes you feel. I do it for one reason and one reason only. So that other people looking for quests can either play it because I think it's worth playing. Or so they can avoid it because I think it was <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>.
Any system that makes it more difficult for players to find enjoyable quests, is a bad system.
Comments
Giving someone 1 star as a way to troll or grief them is a problem. But that doesn't mean that giving someone 1 star makes you a troll. I've played some truly, truly awful missions in STO which richly deserved 1 star.
There needs to be some sort of way of rating missions so people can sort the good from the bad, without that the Foundry has no real purpose because you'll never be able to find the good ones.
There may be some that deserve it, I just don't agree its the way it should be handled. Remove the ratings but keep the feedback. I'd rather see a positive environment instead of a negative one that promotes author vs author and simple griefing.
NW-DMIME87F5
Awaiting a serious response from the developers on the abuse of the review system by other authors.
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How else can you handle it? It's not like Cryptic invented the 5 star rating system. It's been around for some time and it works. If a quest is bad, then it deserved to be rated as such. This is doing a service to our fellow players, by helping them avoid an unenjoyable quest that they may of otherwise wasted their time on.
If getting a 1 star hurts the authors feelings, that's their problem not mine. They should of spent more time polishing the mission, asking for help, having people play test it before publishing it.
The system doesn't inherently promote such a thing.
And this helps the player base just how? What does 6 thumbs up mean? Other then 6 out of X people liked it. If the number of total reviews is shown, it's not that hard to figure out the avg. 6 thumbs up out 25 plays says pretty clearly that the quest isn't that good.
If however you don't see the number of plays, then the number of thumbs up doesn't mean anything, short of a fairly large number like say 100+.
The Thumbs Up system doesn't really change anything, it's effectively nothing more then a semantic difference, and one in which not giving a Thumbs Up is no different then a 1 star rating, because you've exchanged a 5 star system for a 1 star system.
I started here in Apr/ May and I just made a few small quests that didn't take themselves so seriously. No lore, I thought they were a little silly and quirky.
They saw some mainstream success and since then from time to time I started finding myself the subject of rant threads by other authors on these forums. Authors claiming that the general audience are idiots & have no taste, etc. That the best tab quests aren't good and their stuff is. That my stuff is popular just because they're short.
I was perplexed. Almost never - great job. Or - hey man you got some advice how to get on the best tab? (which I would have been happy to help) That was almost non-existent. Honestly, my sense of this community quickly became that it was jealous and elitist.
Now...another thing that seems to make some people here go bonkers is I have run a few contests. I only started doing this after my actual quests had made it to best tab and they had achieved some popularity. None of my real quests ever used a promotion. Also, not one of my contests did I ever keep up permanently as a real quest. They were limited time entry forms and for promotional purposes only & a way to reward my subscribers. There's nothing currently in the TOS that says you can't do this and as an ad guy struck me as a rather smart idea.
I realize these contests rub some people the wrong way and I see whole threads are devoted to them. But think about it, if it were my intention to be a jerk, today I could take over all of the real estate on the best page and just sit there. Now that would hurt authors by pushing them off the page, and I am not interested in hurting anyone. This last promotion lasted maybe a few hours at most and I quickly voluntarily deleted them so it wouldn't have any meaningful negative impact.
Finally the last thing that people seem to have against me of late - one star reviews. Wow, people go bonkers there - you'd think someone had been physically assaulted. Yes, I have one starred people who have bashed me first. If I wanted to hide it, I wouldn't have left a comment. Petty? Most likely. But I have been wrongly & falsely accused of this quite a bit in the past on these forums. And I have never used an alt to give a one star. And you guys (you know who you are) are super hypocritical about this - what about all the one stars I get from other authors and their alts first. I guarantee you that any I have given out is a miniscule fraction of what you have given me.
So I don't feel the need to apologize here, I don't see anything particularly terrible about a one star. One stars can be helpful. Secret Agent 34 got a ton of bad reviews when it launched, and rather than cry I used them to make changes that got it into the best tab.
And dude, really... you've got to know you're opening yourself up to it by bashing me publicly and one-starring me first, don't you think?
To me, you're just asking for a review trade, but in a not positive way. And that's fine.
So that's been my experience & perspective. If I've offended anyone in this forum or somehow interfered with their gaming experience along the way I apologize.
Finally, don't forget - a little depravity and flaming in these forums can be a bit entertaining, so try not to remove all of it. If you think about it, all in all the drama has sort of ended up being kind of a wash...As authors we know that any good story needs just a little conflict to make it interesting...
Bill's Tavern | The 27th Level | Secret Agent 34
This is feedback from a knowledgeable individual who clearly understand the intricacies of the tools that foundry authors use to create quests.
Everyone, listen to this guy, and make sure you have someone else playtest your quest BEFORE you publish it.
Feast of the Moon | Rising of the Dark | Shadow of the World | Everdark
I think that's a little unfair. Not everyone who does review trade threads are doing a "you 5-star me, I'll 5-star you" deal. The threads made by authors specifically about their own quests, and that offer to review other quests in return have been for the most part very fair. I've given mostly 4-3 star reviews (and one 2-star review, that I can recall) specifically from review trades, and I've received unfavorable reviews from review trades. When I've given 5 star reviews, it's because I truly believed that they deserved 5 stars. Granted, a lot of my early reviews that I gave were more favorable (4 instead of 3) because I didn't really understand what you were capable of doing with Foundry quests.
Some of the best feedback I've received were from review trades and/or video reviews. You can get a lot more information from a forum post than the few characters you get from the in-game reviews. Some of the best feedback you're going to get is from other Foundry authors, because they generally know what you're working with. The thing is, they only have so much time to review other people's work because: A.) They're working on their own quests, which is quite time-consuming, B.)They need to try to get plays for their own quest and are working towards that, and C.) Real life obligations. A review trade thread helps all parties, assuming honest feedback.
I'll put this out there, since there's this mentality of "why does this person get all these plays when my quest is clearly better?": In terms of story/design/etc, my only quest that's out currently is not very good at all. I think the reason that it's gotten so many plays and favorable reviews is because of the following: Dialogue choice/ability to roleplay their character, quest length, but most of all, because of my actually going out there and trying to advertise the existence of my quest (review threads). It wasn't until maybe 3-4 weeks after the initial posting that it seriously started getting a lot of plays. It got bumped into the Best tab for a few weeks on and off (I personally don't believe that it's best of material), and plays skyrocketed. I didn't need to advertise it anymore, and the majority of reviews were extremely favorable. It's sitting at 2000+ reviews, and is now mostly stagnant due to no longer being on any tab and, simply put, because there are much better quests out there of similar length.
I'm not in a guild, only 2 of my RL friends were interested in this game (and have stopped playing altogether several weeks ago), and I've never used bots. I still say that the biggest problem is not the star rating system. It's that we have a crummy means of searching for Foundry quests, and it's very hard to get any visibility for them.
My point, which you apparently chose to ignore, is that sometimes a quest published in the foundry is simply bad, and deserves to be rated as such.
Because it was quite clear that in STO there were a number of missions published that clearly weren't tested or polished nearly enough to be released yet. The mere fact that you published something doesn't mean that you deserve praise, or a good review.
But hey, feel free to post nothing but an ad-hominid attack if that's what makes you feel better. It surely doesn't help your argument any.
Indeed. Plenty of reasonable authors here without those expectations, and plenty of authors with special snowflake personalities.
Hammerfist Clan. Jump into the Night: NW-DMXWRYTAD
I just disagree with you completely. I don't feel the need to see what someone else thinks is the best. But more than that, I absolutely think the system promotes 1 star trolls who do it for fun and also for author vs author 1 star griefing. Its your right to disagree with that perspective also. Its what makes the world go around.
I can tell you this, most quests just need the chance to get enough reviews that the 1 star griefers can't really effect the score. at 2300 reviews and almost 4k plays mine daily sits over 4 stars now and that was after surviving the onslaught of several groups of 1 star buddies. So what I'm saying is that 1 star trolling hugely hurts a quest that doesn't have many plays, so when its NOT deserved, and lets be honest, you know when it does or doesn't deserve it.... then it almost devastating and allows griefers to control the placement of quests that aren't their own.
The system is broken, and that's all I will say on it. Feel free to have your own opinion on it, but this one is mine.
Author 2 (6 plays) I'll trade reviews!
Author 1 (0 plays) Author 2, you are disgusting. Trading for reviews. Go to Hell
Author 2 (6 plays) I'm sorry you're mad. I reviewed your quest, and gave it five stars. Hope that helps you get more plays.
Author 1 (1 play) That's even worse, giving out a dishonest review. Shame on you. I gave you one star because you're a jerk.
Author 2 (7 plays) Wow, I take my five stars back. 1 star. No one is going to play your quest with THAT attitude.
Author 3 (0 plays) Author 2 is an A-hole for giving Author 1 a bad rating. I'm giving him two stars because even though his quest is the best I have played, he's a horrible person, and should be banned.
Author 4 (28542 plays) Wow, Author 2 has made a really awesome quest. Five stars. Since I'm so successful, and have so much extra AD laying around, I'm going to have a contest.
Author 2 (9 plays) Thanks for the encouragement Author 4! Your contest seems like a good idea, it might help me get more favorable reviews after those jerks down-voted me. I think I'll try it out.
Author 1 (2 plays) Author 4 is ruining the game! How dare he hog the best list with his contests?!
Author 3 (1 play) Author 2 is worse! Buying good ratings! He should be banned!
Author 2 (18 plays) Look, I'm just trying to get back the adjusted rating points I lost from you guys trolling me when I was trying to help you. Hate me if you want. I don't care.
Author 4 (29132 plays) Authors 1 and 3 should stop being so jealous and petty..
Author 2 (29 plays) I agree with Author 4.
Author 5 (800 plays) Play my quest and knock ogres off a cliff! Derp!
Author 2 (41 plays) Why hasn't anyone said anything about Author 5?
Author 1 (3 plays) Author 2 is being an Elitist jerk! Maybe your quest sucks and people would rather knock ogres off a cliff! I rated Author 5's quest five stars, by the way.
Author 3 (2 plays) Me too! Knocking ogres off the cliff is the best map ever!
I am sorry, but how did I bash you in any way?
Criticism of your quest is not criticism of you.
I said that your quest was "technically and thematically complete" and even though I despise lore breaking comedy quests that I was not going to give it a 1 star based on that one minor setback.
I hate Jazz music, but I know Miles Davis is a 5 star jazz musician.
I hate comedy quests, but Dzogen makes some 5 star comedy quests.
Also, my one complaint about bills tavern ( that it is linear ) is absolutely true. You could have asked me what changes I think you could make to your quest to make it not so linear, but instead you went and gave my non linear quest a 1 star review, criticizing it as linear.
My other complaint was not really a complaint, but more of an observation. The story in bills tavern is thin. It is a hack and slash quest. One of my favorite quests in the foundry is a hack and slash quest with almost no story whatsoever. It is called Ork Fortress, and the story is you go to an ork fortress and kill all the orks inside.
The story of bill's tavern is you go to bill's tavern, and kill all the brain eating zombies inside. The story is pretty thin. You could have asked me what changes I think you could make to the story to make it a bit more fleshed out, but honestly I do not think the quest needs any more story, just like I do not think Ork Fortress needs any more story.
--
My only complaint about your QUESTS is when they break lore.
My only complaint about YOU is when you act like a petty child.
Saying that is totally worth you 1 staring all my quests.
Feast of the Moon | Rising of the Dark | Shadow of the World | Everdark
This is the thing I keep saying about the constant outages of the Foundry after Tuesday Update, they (Cryptic / PWE) seem toatlly incapable of learning from their own mistakes.
Well, the AD/AD exploit was in STO months before it was here.
They had the "change character" functionality in STO months ago but it wasn't in this even in Beta.
This doesn't bode well at all for the long-term viability (eve medium-term for that matter) of this game.
They really shouldn't be any need to ever make the same mistake twice.
All The Best
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Great Weapon Fighter: Because when is today not a good day to die?
PC and PS4 player. Proud Guildmaster for PS4 Team Fencebane. Rank 5 Officer for PC Team Fencebane. Visit us at http://fencebane.shivtr.com
I'm surprised that people aren't liking this idea more. I'd love for the competitive element to begone.
I have to question this basic premise. The star rating should not be seen as a competitive element. It should be seen as a way of letting the people playing the quests know what the avg person thinks of it. I'm sorry but if you feel that somehow having a lower rating then someone else means you have lost... You have the wrong point of view of the whole thing.
Speaking as someone who played a Lot of foundry missions in STO. If there's not some sort of rating system that lets me get an idea of how good/bad the quest is at a glance, then the whole purpose of the foundry suffers. Because myself and I'd say most other people won't bother using it. I'm not going to spend 10-15 minutes looking at the comments of every quest trying to find one I want to play.
Me and my wife read this and nodded our heads pretty much all the way, she doesn't play much anymore because of this, and i pretty much keep my head down and get on with it, i would LOVE to be more involved with this community, a few select people i have met have been amazingly helpfull, and delightfully uplifting. I have been playing MMOs and Online games for 9 years now, met many people and been involved in many communities, and this happens everywhere! Mainly because a lot of people are very competitive and/or lazy and like to get thrills off getting attention through ways others work hard to do. A couple of months ago i made an online blog which spread round pretty fast and even got into some online community forums stating that there are two types of people on the internet, those who come out of their shells and let everyone see their true colours, open their arms to friendship and helping people, and brighten others days - whereas the other types of people use the internet and online gaming to escape from their realitys and portray theirselves as different people, because online you can be anyone!
A long post and a little off topic i know, but what i am generally saying is anywhere in the online community and in-real life, you will get people who have the NEED to be better then everyone else and will hammer those around them down to get it, my grandmother once said that the human race was not like this back in the 1940's , humans in general were not as needy for attention and competition, but nowadays because kids are brought up in the enviroment where they can get what they want, and be what they want, they do not like it when they are told no, or they can't have their way.
Of course it's not just the youth that are doing this, adults are too...allthough to state anything about the older community i need more evidence and statistics to say anything.
- I may not have worded this in the right way, i have trouble explaining myself sometimes, but this mainly stays on topic, i apologize if this unintentionally offends you, it is just my view and opinion towards the "Bad-crowds" -
You are so right, no one in the 1940's ever wanted to put anyone else down, and everyone was treated with respect and decency.
Feast of the Moon | Rising of the Dark | Shadow of the World | Everdark
I'd rather have a search function that works so that I may find a quest I want to play, instead of looking at comments. Stars are unfortunately competitive, as "good" ratings = visibility to general audience atm.
I was thinking pretty much the same thing. WW2 is pretty good proof that the human race hasn't changed much over the years.
Don't tell Runis; she doesn't treat it competitively - But tell everyone else who does. Tell everyone who cares whether or not their quest is on the Best page, or who cares whether or not Cryptic selects their quest to be featured. Tell everyone who gets butthurt when their quest gets a 1-star.
People were just as needy, attention-hungry, and competitive as they are now back in the 40's, and any time before or afterward. The difference is that back then if you wanted something, you worked for it, or killed someone else, and took it. People nowadays just want to be able to whine, and get what they want. That's why you have people with kids they don't take care of getting five grand a year in negative income tax returns, blowing i on big screen TV's, and vacations, and getting fat as a hog on food stamps eating steak every night, while working people are living off of Hot Pockets, Ramen Noodles, or off-brand peanut butter crackers. That's why a loaf of bread costs more than a dollar. It would cost five cents, but since twenty people have to get a free loaf for every one person who earns their daily bread, the price gets inflated. Go to a country with almost no wheat production, where all these hand-outs are non-existent, and most of the bread is imported, you'll still be able to get it at five cents a loaf, from the same bread company, grown on the same farm.
The caption should read :
"Children frolicking in joy together under the universal symbol of love and peace."
Germany, 1940
Feast of the Moon | Rising of the Dark | Shadow of the World | Everdark
I'm curious, exactly how would that system work?
I would be all for a different system, provided it allows me to find quests that I would consider to be enjoyable without a huge amount of time and effort on my part. Clearly no system is going to be foolproof, but if you can come up with a better system then a 1-5 star rating, then I'd like to hear about it.
The problem is that you're sort of relying on a system that reflects the one that made a certain horribly written book the Best Seller... marketing rocketed that awful drivel to the top. Call it "housewife [stuff]" and have a bunch of people 5 star it... and even if it's horribly written and contains disgusting mentions of used feminine products... and you have a "best seller".
A much better system would be a tagging system that allows you to find quests according to what you like:
hack and slash
lore heavy
item recovery/ farming
etc.
Even books can be sorted according to "paranormal, historical, fictional, non-fictional" and sub-categories within that.
From there, yes, you can read reviews, but first, you have to be able to find the kind of thing that you like to begin with. Imagine if we treated books the way they treat foundry quests. You'd have to dig through the book with the nasty reference to bodily fluids to be able to (hopefully) eventually find your History Textbook for next college school year (for those in college, as an example).
Sure, keep the rating system if you must. But first and foremost, allow a better way to search for the type of quests you like.
Pick your side, take a stand, save--or kill--your former allies.
I'd say the quest content and genre is more important than the actual reviews, it'd save people a lot of time as well.
Instead of having ratings to promote, how about a system where you get suggestions based on what you played/endorsed last time?
"Since you played <Quest>, maybe you would also like to play <Quest>?"
or
"You endorsed <Quest>, would you also like to play <Quest> which is similar?"
Of course, this would mean that you'd have to remove the star-system and replace it with an endorse button instead as well as the ability to leave a comment.
I don't think anyone has all the answers, but I do think we all can contribute to the level that Cryptic can make something great from compromise based on our suggestions.
Chef's Challenge, ID: NW-DGTKIBVF3
The Dreamfall Campaign, ID: NWS-DEB7Z9IJC (3 Quests)
Ogre: For the win!, ID: NW-DR5O3PD63
Cults and Culture, ID: NW-DCLSFYSQ2
Chef's Challenge, ID: NW-DGTKIBVF3
The Dreamfall Campaign, ID: NWS-DEB7Z9IJC (3 Quests)
Ogre: For the win!, ID: NW-DR5O3PD63
Cults and Culture, ID: NW-DCLSFYSQ2
And you both are right on the money. But I would add not just a FEW categories. As MANY categories as we can get the better to narrow a search to just what you want.
Avg. Play Length RANGE (so you could set 15-20 if you want a daily)
along with all the other suggestions people could come up with.
This to me gets rid of a need for a star rating altogether, but I still think there should reviews allowed to be left.
Also, if there are 'exploit' maps, etc, no need for 1 stars, you simply report if you feel it needs to be reported and move on.
*....Backspaces wall of text* :rolleyes:
The idea of letting the author add tags to the quest that could be searched for could work, but does have some issues. First of all, that doesn't provide me the player with any idea of how how good the quest may or may not be.
I don't care if you think your quest is lore heavy, dialog heavy, and romantic, if the quest is bad.
Yes categories would help narrow down the type of quest you see in the list, but wouldn't do much to tell you what other peoples opinion of the quest is. There's also the issue of people putting as many tags as they can in order to get the quest to show up in as many lists as possible.
In order for a system to be useful, there needs to be some way for people get an idea of how good/bad the quest is without having to read 15+ reviews. I'm not going to spend 5+ minutes reading reviews for as many as 15 different quests to find out if that quest is worth playing or not.
I understand wanting to get rid of the 5 star rating, but I think people need to remember the star rating is there for the players and not the authors. I don't give reviews or ratings because I want to make the author feel warm and fuzzy or like I've slapped their face. I'm doing it to let other players know what I thought of the quest.
Make no mistake here. I don't give a rats backside if my 1 star rating hurts your feelings or not. Same goes for how good a 5 star rating makes you feel. I do it for one reason and one reason only. So that other people looking for quests can either play it because I think it's worth playing. Or so they can avoid it because I think it was <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>.
Any system that makes it more difficult for players to find enjoyable quests, is a bad system.