Short and obvious answer is profit - correct. But is there something terribly wrong with making a profit? You won't go to work if you did not get paid.
The next point some people then try to make is "they should put more money in the game cause it sucks for x y z reasons" and the answer is again about optimizing profit. Why aren't you working 110 hours a week instead of however much you work right now? Answer is probably because you realize that there's an optimal point for your $ earned / labor.
I'm stating very obvious and basic concepts here but people (some, not all) sometimes forget
One big difference between money made by a public and a private company is you can buy shares in a publicly traded company in the open market. That means the money can actually goes to you.
And if you did invest anytime recent before their last quarterly earnings, you would have made enough not to even worry about spending money for Zen (assuming you are not severely limited in financial capital)
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marlasingersMember, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 14Arc User
It goes to the delevoper and publisher like the person above me mentioned. They use it to keep the game running, and to pay employees to keep the game runing smoothly, fix bugs, and develope new content. So by spending money in the zen store you support the games betterment. Some of it goes for pure profit of course, but a large portion goes back into the game.
Fair assessment. Most companies will dump a considerable portion of profits back into the game until they have something they can "ride" for a while, especially this early on. The game itself doesn't need to make money as long as the parent company is making money. So right now, whether your buying zen from Neverwinter, or another game they own, a chunk of it is funneled into the new game until it becomes "self sufficient".
I think way too many people have a cynical view of how this company does business as if they owe it to you guys just to break even and put all money back into bug fixes and content. They're allowed to take home a paycheck, if they hadn't made a desirable product, you wouldn't have dropped money on it.
ok, while the parent company PWE is in China Cryptic is a smaller company that is based in the us. They just recently (last few weeks) announced another location opening in north East of the country with new Head that is creating new content for Cryptic games. While PWE does have a overall say and here can steer the overall direction of the games, Cryptic is the company in charge.
Yes people will make profit, but as the company just doubled it's work force to open the new location to start dealing more with server issues, and create content. These are the things that make the game run they way you are wanting it to.
I do not mind sending money now and then, as it will be paying the salary of someone that will be working on the game...
And yes the game is publicly shared so if you want more info, ask share holders this more then devs. Otherwise it is like asking a cashier at walmart (not comparing jobs just distance) why the owners chose to price the red shirt more then the blue one.....
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sixty9teaMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 13Arc User
Short and obvious answer is profit - correct. But is there something terribly wrong with making a profit? You won't go to work if you did not get paid.
Of course not. It's not about how much a company makes, but about how they go about making it in my book. Hence the Southpark reference and the #2 being a big question. Selling virtual goods is a big ethical question to begin with, and after it it's what burst the dotcom bubble in the late 90s (though on the investment side).
The next point some people then try to make is "they should put more money in the game cause it sucks for x y z reasons" and the answer is again about optimizing profit. Why aren't you working 110 hours a week instead of however much you work right now? Answer is probably because you realize that there's an optimal point for your $ earned / labor.
I'm not really in that camp, but I am of the belief that Cryptic/PWE genuinely doesn't care about us, its customers. Can you really blame people for feeling that way when it's visible in the poor communication with the community? Their customer service is perpetually behind, with 2+ week waiting times, as they keep saying they're behind but we don't see any progress in them catching up. More importantly, though, is the utter lack of any two-way dialog with their fan base. Their failed solution so far was to gather a bunch of community volunteers to server as moderators. They fill them in on some things, but we're still kept in the dark. There is zero response to both outrage and praise. It seems all of the issues the community wants to talk about is just done among ourselves.
So what sort of company does that? One that is either failing or making plenty of money without any community dialog. For PWE it's the latter. For Cryptic, before PWE bought them, it was the former. Before PWE, Cryptic communicated a little more frequently with the community in the STO and CO days, but still never enough. It's far worse now.
It's a dumb question to be honest. Neverwinter Team will say - to game developers, haters gonna say - to Perfect World pocket. And I will say - you will never guess where it goes.
I never said we did not in this game. I explained how TOR non subs were given less XP. Secondly, I never said in this game you were denied a mount. I said in TOR (Knights of Old Republic) You were denied a mount unless you shelled out some cash.
If you had even bothered to read my reply, you would see I was also referring to TOR. And I repeat, you are wrong on all three counts.
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aylii1984Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 22Arc User
Of course not. It's not about how much a company makes, but about how they go about making it in my book. Hence the Southpark reference and the #2 being a big question. Selling virtual goods is a big ethical question to begin with, and after it it's what burst the dotcom bubble in the late 90s (though on the investment side).
I'm not really in that camp, but I am of the belief that Cryptic/PWE genuinely doesn't care about us, its customers. Can you really blame people for feeling that way when it's visible in the poor communication with the community? Their customer service is perpetually behind, with 2+ week waiting times, as they keep saying they're behind but we don't see any progress in them catching up. More importantly, though, is the utter lack of any two-way dialog with their fan base. Their failed solution so far was to gather a bunch of community volunteers to server as moderators. They fill them in on some things, but we're still kept in the dark. There is zero response to both outrage and praise. It seems all of the issues the community wants to talk about is just done among ourselves.
So what sort of company does that? One that is either failing or making plenty of money without any community dialog. For PWE it's the latter. For Cryptic, before PWE bought them, it was the former. Before PWE, Cryptic communicated a little more frequently with the community in the STO and CO days, but still never enough. It's far worse now.
Cipher, a few comments here but I think we're generally on same "logic" plane so that's good.
All games sell virtual goods - infact I would expand that notion to say all software companies sell virtual goods (such as Apple although right now its trading in the market like a hardware company..a seperate convo for another time). Expanding even more, the U.S. is 90% a service oriented machine - again, its intangible products we're selling here, thus this notion should not bother you unless your a baby boomer then I understand where your coming from because in that era people actually created physical objects
The dot.com bubble did not happen cause people bought intangible companies - the bubble occured because technology was a relatively new industry then and people did not have expertise in valueing these businesses (to some extend, similar to how the recent recession we just went through, people didn't know how to value structured products such as CDOs, MBSs, etc.)
For your next point, companies exist to generate "appropriate" returns to shareholders, although yes, as a player, I do agree that I wish the customer service was better and NW should be able to do "better" in much the same way most of us should be able to "do better" at most things we do.
The reality is though that increase service/product improvement/R&D are all real costs - fair to say NW has put this into consideration and they think where they operate right now is generally in their optimal range. If they are wrong, paying customers (assuming you are in the 10-15% in a F2P game, yep - hard number there for you guys) will leave with your $$$. If you are the other 85 - 90% then frankly you aren't doing much but enjoying a free game right? That's a pretty good deal in itself!
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cipher9nemoMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
All games sell virtual goods - infact I would expand that notion to say all software companies sell virtual goods (such as Apple although right now its trading in the market like a hardware company..a seperate convo for another time). Expanding even more, the U.S. is 90% a service oriented machine - again, its intangible products we're selling here, thus this notion should not bother you unless your a baby boomer then I understand where your coming from because in that era people actually created physical objects
I should probably narrow that description as it applies to Neverwinter as in-game, virtual items instead of just virtual goods.
The dot.com bubble did not happen cause people bought intangible companies - the bubble occured because technology was a relatively new industry then and people did not have expertise in valueing these businesses (to some extend, similar to how the recent recession we just went through, people didn't know how to value structured products such as CDOs, MBSs, etc.)
My reference was to the investment of virtual services/products without seeing any concrete benefit or long-term return on investment. Example: vaporware. As for in-game virtual goods, it's all a horrible investment to the point of no one ever wanting to refer to it as an investment. In 6 months what someone has purchase in Neverwinter runs the risk of either being worthless or obsolete. Example: HotN Founder's Pack to HotN Neverwinter Pack. Cryptic de-valued the original Founder's Packs by still selling them after launch, but with only the removal of the in-game Founder tag.
For your next point, companies exist to generate "appropriate" returns to shareholders, although yes, as a player, I do agree that I wish the customer service was better and NW should be able to do "better" in much the same way most of us should be able to "do better" at most things we do.
The reality is though that increase service/product improvement/R&D are all real costs - fair to say NW has put this into consideration and they think where they operate right now is generally in their optimal range. If they are wrong, paying customers (assuming you are in the 10-15% in a F2P game, yep - hard number there for you guys) will leave with your $$$.
Absolutely, all of the R&D costs are there, as well as equipment purchases, maintenance, overhead, and more. I wouldn't deny that a developer and its publisher need to turn a profit to be successful. I am very pro-capitalism. What I'm against is shoddy management and customer relations. Cryptic/PWE has demonstrated both. Poor customer relations is easily seen by all. Poor management decisions are much more difficult to determine, but we see plenty their results from pricing and marketing to network operations, performance, and downtime. Their marketing has done a great job saturating the marketplace with Neverwinter, but a horrible job at being honest about their claims.
If you are the other 85 - 90% then frankly you aren't doing much but enjoying a free game right? That's a pretty good deal in itself!
I haven't given them a dime for Neverwinter. I did give Cryptic money back in their STO days. However, I am a Foundry author and in the Foundry editor roughly 95% of my time here, so I am investing my time in creating them free content. It's a win-win scenario. They receive free UGC, I receive a form of entertainment. So I am not playing Neverwinter for free. Time is money after all, and work is a form of payment, correct? So the deal isn't free: it's a trade.
With that said, the tools we're given as Foundry authors are very buggy and the services we're provided are slow (timeouts 4/5 times I go to save, preview, or reset). I still enjoy Neverwinter, but it's not a very well done product and a very poor service so far.
ok, while the parent company PWE is in China Cryptic is a smaller company that is based in the us. They just recently (last few weeks) announced another location opening in north East of the country with new Head that is creating new content for Cryptic games. While PWE does have a overall say and here can steer the overall direction of the games, Cryptic is the company in charge.
Yes people will make profit, but as the company just doubled it's work force to open the new location to start dealing more with server issues, and create content. These are the things that make the game run they way you are wanting it to.
I do not mind sending money now and then, as it will be paying the salary of someone that will be working on the game...
And yes the game is publicly shared so if you want more info, ask share holders this more then devs. Otherwise it is like asking a cashier at walmart (not comparing jobs just distance) why the owners chose to price the red shirt more then the blue one.....
I am afraid you are very wrong. The customers at walmart who ask the cashier can also be investors of Walmart who can get the local Walmart store manager out of the door in the next shareholder meeting.
I would say electricity, accountants, janitors, laptops, marketing consultants, web developers, bagels, water, real estate, shareholders, yearly compensation increases, travel expenses, software testers, servers, database engineers, customer service, human resource people, executives, project managers, artists, graphics designers, inspirational posters, team building exercises, vending machines, desk chairs, new carpet for employee lounge (thanks fred for the mess), advertising, database admins, off shore support, application analysts, licensing fees, security certificate renewal, corporate security, lawyers, patent submissions, connectivity engineers, load balancing servers, proxy servers, patch servers, test environments, automated testing software, VoiP phone service, testing managers, release management employees, health care, social security, unemployment insurance, taxes, launch review committee, paper cups for water cooler, water fountains, trash service....
Wizards of the Coast is only true D&D company..Baldures Gate was the best!
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aylii1984Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 22Arc User
edited July 2013
Cipher
On vaporware:
Yep I know what you are referring to but what I was trying to say is its all the same - meaning you are paying for the game just in a relatively less traditional way. I do get your point which is it can feel awkward to buy "game items" cause the concept is relatively novel. With the F2P model you're monetizing a game via items as oppose to subscription or one time payments. Theortically, a F2P model eliminates economic deadweight loss attributed to sub base games since consumers are given a wide menu of price points to engage in their entertainment. Obsolescence isn't really a concern here because frankly everything goes obsolete after time. When you buy that awesome BMW M3, the moment you buy it, the price drops 20-30% immediately - it's simply reality.
F2P is almost like you ordering a $10 pizza and I say the pizza is free but the cost of delivery and packing is $10 - simplistic example but you get my point
On how NW as a business is run:
Frankly my guess is as good as yours on how well this game is truly run in the long term and if you're right in saying people are swarming in because of simply marketing and the fundamental product completely sucks, then the game will die prematurely before its life cycle ends. I hope that's not the case and historically speaking PWRD games have typically been exceptionally sticky, meaning ARPU doesn't go down much as ACU declines (as is normal for games that dont launch add ons or get old).
ARPU = avg revenue per user
ACU = avg concurrent users
On your role as a foundry editor
I agree here with you that you operate as an interesting participant in this whole game/business. Don't have a perspective on where you literally fit into everything as a foundry editor who adds value to the game.
Theortically, a F2P model eliminates economic deadweight loss attributed to sub base games since consumers are given a wide menu of price points to engage in their entertainment.
To be honest, I'd rather be paying a subscription fee than playing the F2P model Neverwinter has. Or Arenanet's model with an up-front single purchase. Because at that point I'm a paying customer, just like everyone else in the game. With Neverwinter it's all too easy to hide behind the free gameplay as an excuse not to provide a reasonable level of service. It shows, and we'll have customers like you who defend that reasoning. So when a customer actually spends money they're still stuck with that F2P bottom line.
Don't get me wrong, though, I can thoroughly enjoy F2P. A good example is Turbine with LOTRO. Just like Neverwinter you can earn cash shop currency by playing, but unlike Neverwinter Turbine still treats its customers as if they were paying a subscription fee. It's not quite as good now that they've been bought by WB, but it's still leagues better than what I've seen so far with Cryptic/PWE.
Frankly my guess is as good as yours on how well this game is truly run in the long term and if you're right in saying people are swarming in because of simply marketing and the fundamental product completely sucks, then the game will die prematurely before its life cycle ends. I hope that's not the case and historically speaking PWRD games have typically been exceptionally sticky, meaning ARPU doesn't go down much as ACU declines (as is normal for games that dont launch add ons or get old).
I've only seen one F2P game truly collapse due to poor management, which in turn leads to bad design and maintenance: APB Reloaded. Closed down and then reopened under a new owner. But there are other examples in MMO history, from Tabula Rasa to the lesser known M2 by a Japanese developer that unbelievable lost all of its data which forced them to shutdown. Those are certainly extremes. So I don't truly believe any big-title F2P MMO will completely fail and close its doors like those have, but it will certainly dwindle and gradually slip into oblivion over time.
So unlike some of the ranters here, I won't say Neverwinter will die. It will just dwindle rather rapidly unless it can please the masses. And that's bad news for us who want to stick around for longer than 3 more months. Less paying customers means skeleton crews: slower development, slower NetOps, and less Q/A.
To be honest, I'd rather be paying a subscription fee than playing the F2P model Neverwinter has. Or Arenanet's model with an up-front single purchase. Because at that point I'm a paying customer, just like everyone else in the game. With Neverwinter it's all too easy to hide behind the free gameplay as an excuse not to provide a reasonable level of service. It shows, and we'll have customers like you who defend that reasoning. So when a customer actually spends money they're still stuck with that F2P bottom line.
Don't get me wrong, though, I can thoroughly enjoy F2P. A good example is Turbine with LOTRO. Just like Neverwinter you can earn cash shop currency by playing, but unlike Neverwinter Turbine still treats its customers as if they were paying a subscription fee. It's not quite as good now that they've been bought by WB, but it's still leagues better than what I've seen so far with Cryptic/PWE.
I've only seen one F2P game truly collapse due to poor management, which in turn leads to bad design and maintenance: APB Reloaded. Closed down and then reopened under a new owner. But there are other examples in MMO history, from Tabula Rasa to the lesser known M2 by a Japanese developer that unbelievable lost all of its data which forced them to shutdown. Those are certainly extremes. So I don't truly believe any big-title F2P MMO will completely fail and close its doors like those have, but it will certainly dwindle and gradually slip into oblivion over time.
So unlike some of the ranters here, I won't say Neverwinter will die. It will just dwindle rather rapidly unless it can please the masses. And that's bad news for us who want to stick around for longer than 3 more months. Less paying customers means skeleton crews: slower development, slower NetOps, and less Q/A.
Since when did Tubula Rasa turn f2p? And APB wasn't really f2p. You got to pay for the box.
Realistically NONE of the better known f2p games have ever disappeared. Not even the smaller ones like Conqueror.
Players should really learn nobody would be stupid enough to make p2p games now. Even p2p games have cash shops that sell OP items like xp boost and endgame token boost. Go play the p2p WoW and enjoy the cash ship with p2w xp boost and charms. Funny how those "Neverwinter is p2w. Good MMO like WoW don't have cash shops" fanbois disappeared overnight.
Since when did Tubula Rasa turn f2p? And APB wasn't really f2p. You got to pay for the box.
Realistically NONE of the better known f2p games have ever disappeared. Not even the smaller ones like Conqueror.
Players should really learn nobody would be stupid enough to make p2p games now. Even p2p games have cash shops that sell OP items like xp boost and endgame token boost. Go play the p2p WoW and enjoy the cash ship with p2w xp boost and charms. Funny how those "Neverwinter is p2w. Good MMO like WoW don't have cash shops" fanbois disappeared overnight.
Yeah, because untethering the ability to make money from being a result of making a quality game is a good thing?
In a p2p game, they have to keep releasing quality content and keep up on bug fixes, to keep all paying customers interested.
In a f2p game, they simply need to keep the small percentage of wallet elitists interested - people who are willing to drop a fortune on unfinished products in a small amount of time.
I suspect we will see a resurgence of p2p games sometime down the road.
Yeah, because untethering the ability to make money from being a result of making a quality game is a good thing?
In a p2p game, they have to keep releasing quality content and keep up on bug fixes, to keep all paying customers interested.
In a f2p game, they simply need to keep the small percentage of wallet elitists interested - people who are willing to drop a fortune on unfinished products in a small amount of time.
I suspect we will see a resurgence of p2p games sometime down the road.
ROFL. How can the new pay to win cash shop in WoW with a $15 per month fee on top stop the "small percentage of wallet elitists" interested? It only means they have to pay $15 a month more than the "small percentage of wallet elitists" in f2p games.
To follow your big time failed logic, if this game copies WoW's latest and greatest cash shop then they should put xp boost potions, drake zeals and items that increase end game drop in the zen store then it will be a quality game?
the money goes to createing new things to be sold in the Zen store
Uh...no. Putting a new item in the cash shop really doesn't cost that much. For that matter, actually making an item isn't really as costly as, say, paying PWE's electric bill every month.
Fact is, most companies don't reinvest everything they make off a given product back into that product. It all goes into a general revenue pool to use as they need.
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krahctMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 0Arc User
ROFL. How can the new pay to win cash shop in WoW with a $15 per month fee on top stop the "small percentage of wallet elitists" interested? It only means they have to pay $15 a month more than the "small percentage of wallet elitists" in f2p games.
Man, you have some real hate for World of Warcraft going on, That's not too healthy.
How is that hate? Check out every public forums and blogs you will find similar comments. The REAL p2p community (not the elitists) don't like cash shop at all. The f2p community has no problem with the cash shop but don't want to be forced to subscribe. This is plain truth.
ROFL. How can the new pay to win cash shop in WoW with a $15 per month fee on top stop the "small percentage of wallet elitists" interested? It only means they have to pay $15 a month more than the "small percentage of wallet elitists" in f2p games.
To follow your big time failed logic, if this game copies WoW's latest and greatest cash shop then they should put xp boost potions, drake zeals and items that increase end game drop in the zen store then it will be a quality game?
Man, you have some serious hate being directed at World of Warcraft. Did they steal your Subscription fee of $14.99 and are refusing to pay it back?
Lets also get this information your keep posting about the Blizzard (Cash Shop) correct. 1st) The Blizzard store is going too sale two items for players in the Asian market, where they've lost a lot of subscriptions and see how it works out. Those two items, are pointless items, and both can already be gotten in game with out every having to spend a penny on either one of them.
The Elixir that grants a 100% bonus exp for leveling is worthless because we already have heirloom gear that grants an experience bonus and those items can be bought with justice points. The only reason to buy the elixir is if you want to level from 80-90 quicker and you never bought the heirloom gear that grants an experience bonus to level 85. 2nd) The recruit a friend program has been in place for a long time now and that program can be used to gift levels from 1-80. So that voids spending money on an elixir unless you need it for the remainder of those 5-10 levels.
Next, those charms you mentioned, those charms are pointless, they are used for outdated gear, which will be even farther behind once patch 5.4 goes live. Not to mention no one understands why Blizzard would place those in their store since you can acquire those charms from running the treasure room. The most you can hold at any given time is 20 and it's easy to amass 20 charms in two treasure room runs.
The Blizzard store (if it works out) will more then likely add other items for players to buy, but nothing they sale will have a huge impact on the game. No, I do not for see Blizzard going to a free too play model any time in the near future, not until those 8 million subs they have drop down to around 1-2 million.
Anyways, Stop hating on Blizzard, If you don't like World of Warcraft that's fine. There are plenty of games I don't like but I'm not posting about it on other games forums.
Life is a dream for the wise, a game for the fool, a comedy for the rich, a tragedy for the poor.
~Sholom Aleichem
How is that hate? Check out every public forums and blogs you will find similar comments. The REAL p2p community (not the elitists) don't like cash shop at all. The f2p community has no problem with the cash shop but don't want to be forced to subscribe. This is plain truth.
And who the hell would play a Free too play game and Pay a Subscription? Your failed A$$ argument that Blizzard is some how going down this road of (require a subscription and charge real money for a cash shop) is completely ignorant. Blizzard didn't set up an f2p game and are using a cash shop to help fund their game. The Blizzard store has been around for a very long time, and it has never required any one to purchase anything that would cause any issues for players.
The subscription Blizzard charges isn't going any where any time soon. Not for a good long while, not until they drop from 8 million down to 1-2 million.
Life is a dream for the wise, a game for the fool, a comedy for the rich, a tragedy for the poor.
~Sholom Aleichem
Man, you have some serious hate being directed at World of Warcraft. Did they steal your Subscription fee of $14.99 and are refusing to pay it back?
Lets also get this information your keep posting about the Blizzard (Cash Shop) correct. 1st) The Blizzard store is going too sale two items for players in the Asian market, where they've lost a lot of subscriptions and see how it works out. Those two items, are pointless items, and both can already be gotten in game with out every having to spend a penny on either one of them.
The Elixir that grants a 100% bonus exp for leveling is worthless because we already have heirloom gear that grants and experience bonus and those items can be bought with justice points. The only reason to buy the elixir is if you want to level from 80-90 quicker and you never bought the heirloom gear that grants an experience bonus to level 85. 2nd) The recruit a friend program has been in place for a long time now and that program can be used to gift levels from 1-80. So that voids spending money on an elixir unless you need it for the remainder of those 5-10 levels.
Next, those charms you mentioned, those charms are pointless, they are used for outdated gear, which will be even farther behind once patch 5.4 goes live. Not to mention no one understands why Blizzard would place those in their store since you can acquire those charms from running the treasure room. The most you can hold at any given time is 20 and it's easy to amass 20 charms in two treasure room runs.
The Blizzard store (if it works out) will more then likely add other items for players to buy, but nothing they sale will have a huge impact on the game. No, I do not for see Blizzard going to a free too play model any time in the near future, not until those 8 million subs they have drop down to around 1-2 million.
Anyways, Stop hating on Blizzard, If you don't like World of Warcraft that's fine. There are plenty of games I don't like but I'm not posting about it on other games forums.
Don't cry when every f2p adds the same things to its cash shop then.
Marketing people here? Hear that? They want the same xp boosts and start adding zeals to the cash shop.
Get ready to see all the other games adding the same things. You asked for it, you get it.
Comments
Short and obvious answer is profit - correct. But is there something terribly wrong with making a profit? You won't go to work if you did not get paid.
The next point some people then try to make is "they should put more money in the game cause it sucks for x y z reasons" and the answer is again about optimizing profit. Why aren't you working 110 hours a week instead of however much you work right now? Answer is probably because you realize that there's an optimal point for your $ earned / labor.
I'm stating very obvious and basic concepts here but people (some, not all) sometimes forget
coke n *****s where else?
And if you did invest anytime recent before their last quarterly earnings, you would have made enough not to even worry about spending money for Zen (assuming you are not severely limited in financial capital)
Fair assessment. Most companies will dump a considerable portion of profits back into the game until they have something they can "ride" for a while, especially this early on. The game itself doesn't need to make money as long as the parent company is making money. So right now, whether your buying zen from Neverwinter, or another game they own, a chunk of it is funneled into the new game until it becomes "self sufficient".
I think way too many people have a cynical view of how this company does business as if they owe it to you guys just to break even and put all money back into bug fixes and content. They're allowed to take home a paycheck, if they hadn't made a desirable product, you wouldn't have dropped money on it.
Yes people will make profit, but as the company just doubled it's work force to open the new location to start dealing more with server issues, and create content. These are the things that make the game run they way you are wanting it to.
I do not mind sending money now and then, as it will be paying the salary of someone that will be working on the game...
And yes the game is publicly shared so if you want more info, ask share holders this more then devs. Otherwise it is like asking a cashier at walmart (not comparing jobs just distance) why the owners chose to price the red shirt more then the blue one.....
THE IRS... I plead the 5th
Of course not.
I'm not really in that camp, but I am of the belief that Cryptic/PWE genuinely doesn't care about us, its customers. Can you really blame people for feeling that way when it's visible in the poor communication with the community? Their customer service is perpetually behind, with 2+ week waiting times, as they keep saying they're behind but we don't see any progress in them catching up. More importantly, though, is the utter lack of any two-way dialog with their fan base. Their failed solution so far was to gather a bunch of community volunteers to server as moderators. They fill them in on some things, but we're still kept in the dark. There is zero response to both outrage and praise. It seems all of the issues the community wants to talk about is just done among ourselves.
So what sort of company does that? One that is either failing or making plenty of money without any community dialog. For PWE it's the latter. For Cryptic, before PWE bought them, it was the former. Before PWE, Cryptic communicated a little more frequently with the community in the STO and CO days, but still never enough. It's far worse now.
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Bamidor: Level 65 OP/2nd Account: Valindra/62
If you had even bothered to read my reply, you would see I was also referring to TOR. And I repeat, you are wrong on all three counts.
Cipher, a few comments here but I think we're generally on same "logic" plane so that's good.
All games sell virtual goods - infact I would expand that notion to say all software companies sell virtual goods (such as Apple although right now its trading in the market like a hardware company..a seperate convo for another time). Expanding even more, the U.S. is 90% a service oriented machine - again, its intangible products we're selling here, thus this notion should not bother you unless your a baby boomer then I understand where your coming from because in that era people actually created physical objects
The dot.com bubble did not happen cause people bought intangible companies - the bubble occured because technology was a relatively new industry then and people did not have expertise in valueing these businesses (to some extend, similar to how the recent recession we just went through, people didn't know how to value structured products such as CDOs, MBSs, etc.)
For your next point, companies exist to generate "appropriate" returns to shareholders, although yes, as a player, I do agree that I wish the customer service was better and NW should be able to do "better" in much the same way most of us should be able to "do better" at most things we do.
The reality is though that increase service/product improvement/R&D are all real costs - fair to say NW has put this into consideration and they think where they operate right now is generally in their optimal range. If they are wrong, paying customers (assuming you are in the 10-15% in a F2P game, yep - hard number there for you guys) will leave with your $$$. If you are the other 85 - 90% then frankly you aren't doing much but enjoying a free game right? That's a pretty good deal in itself!
I should probably narrow that description as it applies to Neverwinter as in-game, virtual items instead of just virtual goods.
My reference was to the investment of virtual services/products without seeing any concrete benefit or long-term return on investment. Example: vaporware. As for in-game virtual goods, it's all a horrible investment to the point of no one ever wanting to refer to it as an investment. In 6 months what someone has purchase in Neverwinter runs the risk of either being worthless or obsolete. Example: HotN Founder's Pack to HotN Neverwinter Pack. Cryptic de-valued the original Founder's Packs by still selling them after launch, but with only the removal of the in-game Founder tag.
Absolutely, all of the R&D costs are there, as well as equipment purchases, maintenance, overhead, and more. I wouldn't deny that a developer and its publisher need to turn a profit to be successful. I am very pro-capitalism.
I haven't given them a dime for Neverwinter. I did give Cryptic money back in their STO days. However, I am a Foundry author and in the Foundry editor roughly 95% of my time here, so I am investing my time in creating them free content. It's a win-win scenario. They receive free UGC, I receive a form of entertainment. So I am not playing Neverwinter for free. Time is money after all, and work is a form of payment, correct? So the deal isn't free: it's a trade.
With that said, the tools we're given as Foundry authors are very buggy and the services we're provided are slow (timeouts 4/5 times I go to save, preview, or reset). I still enjoy Neverwinter, but it's not a very well done product and a very poor service so far.
Hammerfist Clan. Jump into the Night: NW-DMXWRYTAD
I am afraid you are very wrong. The customers at walmart who ask the cashier can also be investors of Walmart who can get the local Walmart store manager out of the door in the next shareholder meeting.
blackjack and hookers.
actually, skip the blackjack.
I would say electricity, accountants, janitors, laptops, marketing consultants, web developers, bagels, water, real estate, shareholders, yearly compensation increases, travel expenses, software testers, servers, database engineers, customer service, human resource people, executives, project managers, artists, graphics designers, inspirational posters, team building exercises, vending machines, desk chairs, new carpet for employee lounge (thanks fred for the mess), advertising, database admins, off shore support, application analysts, licensing fees, security certificate renewal, corporate security, lawyers, patent submissions, connectivity engineers, load balancing servers, proxy servers, patch servers, test environments, automated testing software, VoiP phone service, testing managers, release management employees, health care, social security, unemployment insurance, taxes, launch review committee, paper cups for water cooler, water fountains, trash service....
ok you get the idea i could go on forever.
L2business.
On vaporware:
Yep I know what you are referring to but what I was trying to say is its all the same - meaning you are paying for the game just in a relatively less traditional way. I do get your point which is it can feel awkward to buy "game items" cause the concept is relatively novel. With the F2P model you're monetizing a game via items as oppose to subscription or one time payments. Theortically, a F2P model eliminates economic deadweight loss attributed to sub base games since consumers are given a wide menu of price points to engage in their entertainment. Obsolescence isn't really a concern here because frankly everything goes obsolete after time. When you buy that awesome BMW M3, the moment you buy it, the price drops 20-30% immediately - it's simply reality.
F2P is almost like you ordering a $10 pizza and I say the pizza is free but the cost of delivery and packing is $10 - simplistic example but you get my point
On how NW as a business is run:
Frankly my guess is as good as yours on how well this game is truly run in the long term and if you're right in saying people are swarming in because of simply marketing and the fundamental product completely sucks, then the game will die prematurely before its life cycle ends. I hope that's not the case and historically speaking PWRD games have typically been exceptionally sticky, meaning ARPU doesn't go down much as ACU declines (as is normal for games that dont launch add ons or get old).
ARPU = avg revenue per user
ACU = avg concurrent users
On your role as a foundry editor
I agree here with you that you operate as an interesting participant in this whole game/business. Don't have a perspective on where you literally fit into everything as a foundry editor who adds value to the game.
To be honest, I'd rather be paying a subscription fee than playing the F2P model Neverwinter has. Or Arenanet's model with an up-front single purchase. Because at that point I'm a paying customer, just like everyone else in the game. With Neverwinter it's all too easy to hide behind the free gameplay as an excuse not to provide a reasonable level of service. It shows, and we'll have customers like you who defend that reasoning. So when a customer actually spends money they're still stuck with that F2P bottom line.
Don't get me wrong, though, I can thoroughly enjoy F2P. A good example is Turbine with LOTRO. Just like Neverwinter you can earn cash shop currency by playing, but unlike Neverwinter Turbine still treats its customers as if they were paying a subscription fee. It's not quite as good now that they've been bought by WB, but it's still leagues better than what I've seen so far with Cryptic/PWE.
I've only seen one F2P game truly collapse due to poor management, which in turn leads to bad design and maintenance: APB Reloaded. Closed down and then reopened under a new owner. But there are other examples in MMO history, from Tabula Rasa to the lesser known M2 by a Japanese developer that unbelievable lost all of its data which forced them to shutdown. Those are certainly extremes. So I don't truly believe any big-title F2P MMO will completely fail and close its doors like those have, but it will certainly dwindle and gradually slip into oblivion over time.
So unlike some of the ranters here, I won't say Neverwinter will die. It will just dwindle rather rapidly unless it can please the masses. And that's bad news for us who want to stick around for longer than 3 more months. Less paying customers means skeleton crews: slower development, slower NetOps, and less Q/A.
Hammerfist Clan. Jump into the Night: NW-DMXWRYTAD
Since when did Tubula Rasa turn f2p? And APB wasn't really f2p. You got to pay for the box.
Realistically NONE of the better known f2p games have ever disappeared. Not even the smaller ones like Conqueror.
Players should really learn nobody would be stupid enough to make p2p games now. Even p2p games have cash shops that sell OP items like xp boost and endgame token boost. Go play the p2p WoW and enjoy the cash ship with p2w xp boost and charms. Funny how those "Neverwinter is p2w. Good MMO like WoW don't have cash shops" fanbois disappeared overnight.
Yeah, because untethering the ability to make money from being a result of making a quality game is a good thing?
In a p2p game, they have to keep releasing quality content and keep up on bug fixes, to keep all paying customers interested.
In a f2p game, they simply need to keep the small percentage of wallet elitists interested - people who are willing to drop a fortune on unfinished products in a small amount of time.
I suspect we will see a resurgence of p2p games sometime down the road.
the money goes to createing new things to be sold in the Zen store
ROFL. How can the new pay to win cash shop in WoW with a $15 per month fee on top stop the "small percentage of wallet elitists" interested? It only means they have to pay $15 a month more than the "small percentage of wallet elitists" in f2p games.
To follow your big time failed logic, if this game copies WoW's latest and greatest cash shop then they should put xp boost potions, drake zeals and items that increase end game drop in the zen store then it will be a quality game?
Uh...no. Putting a new item in the cash shop really doesn't cost that much. For that matter, actually making an item isn't really as costly as, say, paying PWE's electric bill every month.
Fact is, most companies don't reinvest everything they make off a given product back into that product. It all goes into a general revenue pool to use as they need.
Great Weapon Fighter: Because when is today not a good day to die?
PC and PS4 player. Proud Guildmaster for PS4 Team Fencebane. Rank 5 Officer for PC Team Fencebane. Visit us at http://fencebane.shivtr.com
This made me spit up my mountain dew, want to take a bite of my cake and log back into WoW.
Life is a dream for the wise, a game for the fool, a comedy for the rich, a tragedy for the poor.
~Sholom Aleichem
Man, you have some serious hate being directed at World of Warcraft. Did they steal your Subscription fee of $14.99 and are refusing to pay it back?
Lets also get this information your keep posting about the Blizzard (Cash Shop) correct. 1st) The Blizzard store is going too sale two items for players in the Asian market, where they've lost a lot of subscriptions and see how it works out. Those two items, are pointless items, and both can already be gotten in game with out every having to spend a penny on either one of them.
The Elixir that grants a 100% bonus exp for leveling is worthless because we already have heirloom gear that grants an experience bonus and those items can be bought with justice points. The only reason to buy the elixir is if you want to level from 80-90 quicker and you never bought the heirloom gear that grants an experience bonus to level 85. 2nd) The recruit a friend program has been in place for a long time now and that program can be used to gift levels from 1-80. So that voids spending money on an elixir unless you need it for the remainder of those 5-10 levels.
Next, those charms you mentioned, those charms are pointless, they are used for outdated gear, which will be even farther behind once patch 5.4 goes live. Not to mention no one understands why Blizzard would place those in their store since you can acquire those charms from running the treasure room. The most you can hold at any given time is 20 and it's easy to amass 20 charms in two treasure room runs.
The Blizzard store (if it works out) will more then likely add other items for players to buy, but nothing they sale will have a huge impact on the game. No, I do not for see Blizzard going to a free too play model any time in the near future, not until those 8 million subs they have drop down to around 1-2 million.
Anyways, Stop hating on Blizzard, If you don't like World of Warcraft that's fine. There are plenty of games I don't like but I'm not posting about it on other games forums.
Life is a dream for the wise, a game for the fool, a comedy for the rich, a tragedy for the poor.
~Sholom Aleichem
Life is a dream for the wise, a game for the fool, a comedy for the rich, a tragedy for the poor.
~Sholom Aleichem
Don't cry when every f2p adds the same things to its cash shop then.
Marketing people here? Hear that? They want the same xp boosts and start adding zeals to the cash shop.
Get ready to see all the other games adding the same things. You asked for it, you get it.