I think the debuffing a GWF can do is completely underrated, especially by the non-GWF community. Most purple gear give enough armor penetration so that defence reduction actually begins to matter.
Making 5 subbosses take 15% more damage on every crit with one strike is very nice for my team. Most pugs don't realize they score higher because the GWF made it so.
CW's ray of enfeeblement does 15% reduction without any specific feats. With the feats my wizard has, Ray does that 15% + an additional 10% defenses b/c its an arcane power + another 15% mitigation reduction from conduit of ice.
So an un-debuff spec CW is equal to a specced GWF while a specced CW can have 30% mitigation +10% defenses debuffs.
Like I said in an earlier post I have a higher gs GWF than my CW and I enjoy the GWF a lot but it is simply a handicap to groups to take a GWF over other classes.
Guild Master of <Enemy Team>
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
Sure taking down the boss will be slower without a TR, but not necessarily "harder". In fact I would argue that with a GWF it would be safer. Relieving pressure off of CWs and/or DC so they can relax and do their job without teleporting/dodging every second, to me is as valuable if not more valuable than a TR bringing extra dps on a boss. 90% of wipes on bosses occur because of adds getting out of hands, and NEVER because the boss is going down slower.
Sure GWFs still could use more added value/utility in the current content, but no where near the exaggerated claims of some people.
I dunno about GWFs being a handicap... this is a pretty good point. Especially the bolded part above. Perhaps instead of comparing them to CW we should be looking at them as boss/add killers who make the run not necessarily lightning-quick but get the job done easier with more breathing room for everybody?
I don't animation cancel. I have 2/2 T1 gear and terribad enchants. I have no stone as of yet and I am neck and neck with the TR who has full t2s. Everyone else is left in the dust including the CW who gets credit for damage from ledge pitching. I am referring to T2 runs.
When there is no pitching off ledges then the CW (who will be 3rd on meters) uses singularity to group them up and I melt them. It gets even funnier when there is TWO GWF hitting the same stack of mobs. The GF is running to the next group to pull as soon as singularity is tossed. No need to stick around since the mobs melt and worst case there is two off tanks for any stragglers.
No we do not have single target dps like a TR. So? TR cannot come close to the amount of pain a GWF brings to a mass of mobs.
Again I'm not saying GWF are bad, they are just not as useful as other classes in a group. I know b/c I have a 12k gs GWF! Which T2 are you running tarmalen?
Spellplague - 2 TR's are very helpful for last boss and you can toss most mobs off the ledge.
Karrundax - you can skip 3/4 of all trash mobs.
FH - you can toss just about everything.
Pirate - toss adds.
Spider - you do damage to 5 adds at once while CW damages 20 at once, you would have to do 4 times as much damage (which you don't) to equal the CW's damage and you still don't have any control with that damage.
CN - 2 CW's make it soooo much easier and you need a rogue for draco damage.
Guild Master of <Enemy Team>
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
Again I'm not saying GWF are bad, they are just not as useful as other classes in a group. I know b/c I have a 12k gs GWF! Which T2 are you running tarmalen?
Spellplague - 2 TR's are very helpful for last boss and you can toss most mobs off the ledge.
Karrundax - you can skip 3/4 of all trash mobs.
FH - you can toss just about everything.
Pirate - toss adds. Spider - you do damage to 5 adds at once while CW damages 20 at once, you would have to do 4 times as much damage (which you don't) to equal the CW's damage and you still don't have any control with that damage.
CN - 2 CW's make it soooo much easier and you need a rogue for draco damage.
You forgot to add in the fact that without TR you really don't have the damage to finish the boss. If you take in 2 CW 1 TR 1 GF and 1 DC she is laughable easy, almost as easy is 2 TR 1 CW 1 GF 1 DC, you NEED a TR for the fight, you NEED a DC for the fight you also NEED a CW for the fight.... the other 2 spots are for the classes that make it easier, TR = boss dies faster , CW = no mobs ever hit the party. GF can pop out more single target damage and can tank better. As a GWF you can do junk aoe dps (moving all over to get the mobs) vs a CW that can sit in one spot and hit everything or you can do HAMSTER tank. make the run smoother bring a double of another class.
And stop nerfing other classes just to try and make GWF viable
Didn't think I needed to bold the part I was mainly replying to. Oh well.
It still doesn't make sense. If what I suggested happened GWF would be in a much better place than they are right now. Not to mention a removal of the 5 mob cap on hits and the Damage reduction per mob hit over one. I'm not saying there aren't issues with a GWF at present.. but there are advantages a GWF has over a second CW.. CWs and Rogues are just uber squishy and in almost every pug I've been in the rogue and other CW die twice before the boss is at 50%. The GWF is usually the last to die unless something really unlucky occurs.
Says the TR who dies in the first 50% of a boss fight, and the GWF ends up tanking adds, and taking the boss down.
Says the TR who keeps screaming "get the adds off of me. I cant stay on the boss with all these adds!"
Says the TR who tries to revive someone else and gets one shotted, unlike a GWF.
Says the TR who wants the GWF to debuff the boss for 45% so he can do more dps.
LOL, I am sorry, but I can take an argument like this from a DC or a CW, but to say that a TR is hilariously superior is ...."hilarious".
Sure taking down the boss will be slower without a TR, but not necessarily "harder". In fact I would argue that with a GWF it would be safer. Relieving pressure off of CWs and/or DC so they can relax and do their job without teleporting/dodging every second, to me is as valuable if not more valuable than a TR bringing extra dps on a boss. 90% of wipes on bosses occur because of adds getting out of hands, and NEVER because the boss is going down slower.
Sure GWFs still could use more added value/utility in the current content, but no where near the exaggerated claims of some people.
1) Tis not fair comparing a moronic TR to a decent GWF.
2) A decent TR with a decent group will NEVER call for adds to be pulled off him/her. Me myself will simply either facetank or take evasive maneuvers (if it's too much to facetank) until a tank taunts/CW AoEs/DC's heal aggros it off. That's what my impossible to catch & stealth is for. Mobs don't stick on you if you don't have any damage aggro & Cleric heal aggro will outheal your own leech/recovery aggro.
3) A decent TR will pop Stealth or ITC & safely revive an ally. Unprotected revives are only for desperation revives. (Like say the Cleric died & everyone else is too occupied/about to die themselves.)
GF/GWFs/DCs make significantly better revivers than TRs or CWs. (GWF can simply turn huge, GFs have good survivability, DCs have a lull during cooldowns.)
4) Most decent TRs don't give a rat's HAMSTER about debuffs that other players bring. Things die fast enough already & if they really, truly cared about big numbers, they'll have their own crew they run with (with everyone running specific setups). Otherwise they're just fail TRs whining to have others carry them. A decent TR will already has decent gear & achieve high numbers without relying on other's debuff.
Also agreed, having a good GWF makes runs safer...
In fact, me has Duo'd/Trio'd manned several T2 dungeons with a GWF + DC (myself)
But due to how the current dungeons are designed, a decent team does not need a dedicated tank & taking one will actually slow things down.
Now if your team is full of fails, particularly fail TRs (which are plentiful), then aye taking a GFW will make a run significantly more easier & likely to succeed. (& yes, most of the Duo/Trio situations occured because we had fail TRs/CWs in our group....)
Also you make me laugh, there is no hard dungeon in Neverwinter.
& if it's "hard" that's most likely a lack of gear on your part.
Here be the current problem in a nutshell:
Currently GWFs are godly PvE tanks.
Literally. NOTHING in PvE can kill a decent tank spec GWF.
Only problem: NOTHING in PvE requires a tank. (Heck, I've run FH with a CW lure before.)
Even spider doesn't need a tank. Take more DPS & the boss will kill the adds for you.
I think the debuffing a GWF can do is completely underrated, especially by the non-GWF community. Most purple gear give enough armor penetration so that defence reduction actually begins to matter.
Making 5 subbosses take 15% more damage on every crit with one strike is very nice for my team. Most pugs don't realize they score higher because the GWF made it so.
This is spot-on.. though one critical point was missed. Combat advantage.
Spec down the Instigator tree and add "Not So Fast" and "Leap" to your bar. Each of those skills will provide your party with 3s of combat advantage when they are used, and each is very easy for party members to spot/hear. Combine the mentioned 15% reduction of the targets defense (which can stack 3 times!) with a party that is watching for your "Not So Fast" and "Leap" skills to be used before unloading with their daily or primary damage skill and you will start to notice the positive impact a GWF can have on an organized party.
1) Tis not fair comparing a moronic TR to a decent GWF.
2) A decent TR with a decent group will NEVER call for adds to be pulled off him/her. Me myself will simply either facetank or take evasive maneuvers (if it's too much to facetank)
Wow, your wall of vomit-coloured text is very ugly. You must be a very important person to require such SPECIAL LETTARS.
This is spot-on.. though one critical point was missed. Combat advantage.
Spec down the Instigator tree and add "Not So Fast" and "Leap" to your bar. Each of those skills will provide your party with 3s of combat advantage when they are used, and each is very easy for party members to spot/hear. Combine the mentioned 15% reduction of the targets defense (which can stack 3 times!) with a party that is watching for your "Not So Fast" and "Leap" skills to be used before unloading with their daily or primary damage skill and you will start to notice the positive impact a GWF can have on an organized party.
Rogues can lower defenses and give combat advantage as well. Wicked Reminder and Dazing Strike, respectively.
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chylokMember, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 23Arc User
Rogues can lower defenses and give combat advantage as well. Wicked Reminder and Dazing Strike, respectively.
Though not nearly to the level and consistancy of what I have indicated. In fact, if you feated into "Underhanded Tactics" the presence of a GWF spec'd as I mentioned would give you a nearly running +20% damage boost; would it not?
Some people claim GWF's are not wanted in endgame content, and I just can't fathom WHY you would take a TR over a GWF in all honesty.
GWF's are great sub-tanks while still being able to dish out some really nice damage, their AOE damage is good, and having 2 GWF's in a group with 1 cw 1dc and a GF the runs are smooth and easy most of the time. (barring a player who has no clue what they are doing)
I just don't get this attitude that says TR's are better than GWF's in ANY part of this game for I and my guild just don't see it.
TR can stealth run from camp to camp so that the group can skip entire sections of dungeons to complete faster.
Though not nearly to the level and consistancy of what I have indicated. In fact, if you feated into "Underhanded Tactics" the presence of a GWF spec'd as I mentioned would give you a nearly running +20% damage boost; would it not?
Rogues already give themselves a lot of combat advantage with stealth and dazes, and other ways if they spec them, like the one where you have it for XX seconds after using a daily, or using bait and switch. Having a GWF giving combat advantage on mobs I may or may not even be hitting isn't a huge benefit. I'd rather that the GWFs just kill things faster while I work on the biggest add/boss, and then come join me on the biggest add/boss instead of endlessly waving their sword at 5 mobs and not making them fall down dead before the next wave of adds shows up.
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chylokMember, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 23Arc User
Rogues already give themselves a lot of combat advantage with stealth and dazes, and other ways if they spec them, like the one where you have it for XX seconds after using a daily, or using bait and switch. Having a GWF giving combat advantage on mobs I may or may not even be hitting isn't a huge benefit. I'd rather that the GWFs just kill things faster while I work on the biggest add/boss, and then come join me on the biggest add/boss instead of endlessly waving their sword at 5 mobs and not making them fall down dead before the next wave of adds shows up.
Yes, THEMSELVES. I am talking about a full party buff, to include the rogue.
Also, I personally do not agree with the OP's statement regarding TR's in a party. Regardless, my point is that GWF's spec'd to what I mentioned, and working with an organized party, are infact a crucial cog in the party mechanic.
TR can stealth run from camp to camp so that the group can skip entire sections of dungeons to complete faster.
Yeah, and the hilarious thing is that this exploit is starting to come unstuck and cause chests not to open, doors to stay shut etc.. Groups don't always make the connection between their flagrant cheating and the ensuing cockblock, which leads to some interesting folk wisdom.
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elpaleniozord01Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 28Arc User
TR can stealth run from camp to camp so that the group can skip entire sections of dungeons to complete faster.
So does GWF except we dont need stealth for it.
@Combat Advantage
You guys realize its applied passively when standing in correct position? Specing into it is complete waste, you either sacrifice 2 encouters + 5 feat points to give CA to your party or simply move your *** into position and spam aoe. The effect is the same except you get 100% uptime in the latter. With rare exception such as last boss in Spellplague, if you dont see small sword icon beside numbers floating on your screen, youre doing it wrong.
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chylokMember, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 23Arc User
@Combat Advantage
You guys realize its applied passively when standing in correct position? Specing into it is complete waste, you either sacrifice 2 encouters + 5 feat points to give CA to your party or simply move your *** into position and spam aoe. The effect is the same except you get 100% uptime in the latter. With rare exception such as last boss in Spellplague, if you dont see small sword icon beside numbers floating on your screen, youre doing it wrong.
You do realize that some bosses/mobs move/port at varying frequency?
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elpaleniozord01Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 28Arc User
You do realize that some bosses/mobs move/port at varying frequency?
Bosses such as? Karrundax? Hrimnir? Aboleth? Dracolich? Pirate King? Yshiggol? even Syndryth doesnt move after initial phase. On top of it, thats not an excuse for not keeping it up, we have sprint for a reason. I stick to what ive said, if you dont have CA all the time its your fail.
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katbozejziemiMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 856Arc User
edited July 2013
Moving into correct position is too much to expect of rogues.
Comments
CW's ray of enfeeblement does 15% reduction without any specific feats. With the feats my wizard has, Ray does that 15% + an additional 10% defenses b/c its an arcane power + another 15% mitigation reduction from conduit of ice.
So an un-debuff spec CW is equal to a specced GWF while a specced CW can have 30% mitigation +10% defenses debuffs.
Like I said in an earlier post I have a higher gs GWF than my CW and I enjoy the GWF a lot but it is simply a handicap to groups to take a GWF over other classes.
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
I dunno about GWFs being a handicap... this is a pretty good point. Especially the bolded part above. Perhaps instead of comparing them to CW we should be looking at them as boss/add killers who make the run not necessarily lightning-quick but get the job done easier with more breathing room for everybody?
I don't animation cancel. I have 2/2 T1 gear and terribad enchants. I have no stone as of yet and I am neck and neck with the TR who has full t2s. Everyone else is left in the dust including the CW who gets credit for damage from ledge pitching. I am referring to T2 runs.
When there is no pitching off ledges then the CW (who will be 3rd on meters) uses singularity to group them up and I melt them. It gets even funnier when there is TWO GWF hitting the same stack of mobs. The GF is running to the next group to pull as soon as singularity is tossed. No need to stick around since the mobs melt and worst case there is two off tanks for any stragglers.
No we do not have single target dps like a TR. So? TR cannot come close to the amount of pain a GWF brings to a mass of mobs.
Spellplague - 2 TR's are very helpful for last boss and you can toss most mobs off the ledge.
Karrundax - you can skip 3/4 of all trash mobs.
FH - you can toss just about everything.
Pirate - toss adds.
Spider - you do damage to 5 adds at once while CW damages 20 at once, you would have to do 4 times as much damage (which you don't) to equal the CW's damage and you still don't have any control with that damage.
CN - 2 CW's make it soooo much easier and you need a rogue for draco damage.
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
You forgot to add in the fact that without TR you really don't have the damage to finish the boss. If you take in 2 CW 1 TR 1 GF and 1 DC she is laughable easy, almost as easy is 2 TR 1 CW 1 GF 1 DC, you NEED a TR for the fight, you NEED a DC for the fight you also NEED a CW for the fight.... the other 2 spots are for the classes that make it easier, TR = boss dies faster , CW = no mobs ever hit the party. GF can pop out more single target damage and can tank better. As a GWF you can do junk aoe dps (moving all over to get the mobs) vs a CW that can sit in one spot and hit everything or you can do HAMSTER tank. make the run smoother bring a double of another class.
And stop nerfing other classes just to try and make GWF viable
It still doesn't make sense. If what I suggested happened GWF would be in a much better place than they are right now. Not to mention a removal of the 5 mob cap on hits and the Damage reduction per mob hit over one. I'm not saying there aren't issues with a GWF at present.. but there are advantages a GWF has over a second CW.. CWs and Rogues are just uber squishy and in almost every pug I've been in the rogue and other CW die twice before the boss is at 50%. The GWF is usually the last to die unless something really unlucky occurs.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Campaign: The Battle of Neverwinter - NWS-DOQXFA4ZD
Prologue: A not so simple plan - NW-DCJG75B9D
1) Tis not fair comparing a moronic TR to a decent GWF.
2) A decent TR with a decent group will NEVER call for adds to be pulled off him/her. Me myself will simply either facetank or take evasive maneuvers (if it's too much to facetank) until a tank taunts/CW AoEs/DC's heal aggros it off. That's what my impossible to catch & stealth is for. Mobs don't stick on you if you don't have any damage aggro & Cleric heal aggro will outheal your own leech/recovery aggro.
3) A decent TR will pop Stealth or ITC & safely revive an ally. Unprotected revives are only for desperation revives. (Like say the Cleric died & everyone else is too occupied/about to die themselves.)
GF/GWFs/DCs make significantly better revivers than TRs or CWs. (GWF can simply turn huge, GFs have good survivability, DCs have a lull during cooldowns.)
4) Most decent TRs don't give a rat's HAMSTER about debuffs that other players bring. Things die fast enough already & if they really, truly cared about big numbers, they'll have their own crew they run with (with everyone running specific setups). Otherwise they're just fail TRs whining to have others carry them. A decent TR will already has decent gear & achieve high numbers without relying on other's debuff.
Also agreed, having a good GWF makes runs safer...
In fact, me has Duo'd/Trio'd manned several T2 dungeons with a GWF + DC (myself)
But due to how the current dungeons are designed, a decent team does not need a dedicated tank & taking one will actually slow things down.
Now if your team is full of fails, particularly fail TRs (which are plentiful), then aye taking a GFW will make a run significantly more easier & likely to succeed. (& yes, most of the Duo/Trio situations occured because we had fail TRs/CWs in our group....)
Also you make me laugh, there is no hard dungeon in Neverwinter.
& if it's "hard" that's most likely a lack of gear on your part.
Here be the current problem in a nutshell:
Currently GWFs are godly PvE tanks.
Literally. NOTHING in PvE can kill a decent tank spec GWF.
Only problem: NOTHING in PvE requires a tank. (Heck, I've run FH with a CW lure before.)
Even spider doesn't need a tank. Take more DPS & the boss will kill the adds for you.
This is spot-on.. though one critical point was missed. Combat advantage.
Spec down the Instigator tree and add "Not So Fast" and "Leap" to your bar. Each of those skills will provide your party with 3s of combat advantage when they are used, and each is very easy for party members to spot/hear. Combine the mentioned 15% reduction of the targets defense (which can stack 3 times!) with a party that is watching for your "Not So Fast" and "Leap" skills to be used before unloading with their daily or primary damage skill and you will start to notice the positive impact a GWF can have on an organized party.
Wow, your wall of vomit-coloured text is very ugly. You must be a very important person to require such SPECIAL LETTARS.
Rogues can lower defenses and give combat advantage as well. Wicked Reminder and Dazing Strike, respectively.
Though not nearly to the level and consistancy of what I have indicated. In fact, if you feated into "Underhanded Tactics" the presence of a GWF spec'd as I mentioned would give you a nearly running +20% damage boost; would it not?
TR can stealth run from camp to camp so that the group can skip entire sections of dungeons to complete faster.
Rogues already give themselves a lot of combat advantage with stealth and dazes, and other ways if they spec them, like the one where you have it for XX seconds after using a daily, or using bait and switch. Having a GWF giving combat advantage on mobs I may or may not even be hitting isn't a huge benefit. I'd rather that the GWFs just kill things faster while I work on the biggest add/boss, and then come join me on the biggest add/boss instead of endlessly waving their sword at 5 mobs and not making them fall down dead before the next wave of adds shows up.
Yes, THEMSELVES. I am talking about a full party buff, to include the rogue.
Also, I personally do not agree with the OP's statement regarding TR's in a party. Regardless, my point is that GWF's spec'd to what I mentioned, and working with an organized party, are infact a crucial cog in the party mechanic.
Yeah, and the hilarious thing is that this exploit is starting to come unstuck and cause chests not to open, doors to stay shut etc.. Groups don't always make the connection between their flagrant cheating and the ensuing cockblock, which leads to some interesting folk wisdom.
So does GWF except we dont need stealth for it.
@Combat Advantage
You guys realize its applied passively when standing in correct position? Specing into it is complete waste, you either sacrifice 2 encouters + 5 feat points to give CA to your party or simply move your *** into position and spam aoe. The effect is the same except you get 100% uptime in the latter. With rare exception such as last boss in Spellplague, if you dont see small sword icon beside numbers floating on your screen, youre doing it wrong.
You do realize that some bosses/mobs move/port at varying frequency?
Bosses such as? Karrundax? Hrimnir? Aboleth? Dracolich? Pirate King? Yshiggol? even Syndryth doesnt move after initial phase. On top of it, thats not an excuse for not keeping it up, we have sprint for a reason. I stick to what ive said, if you dont have CA all the time its your fail.