You gotta dig deep to call someone brain dead when you didn't even know RoF would freeze through block. If you can't see the advantage of being able to break block from max range in pvp then I can't help you. Stay Classy Kroniker.
Said by someone who did not know that Learned Spellcaster increases damage by a flat 5%. Take your own advice.
Even if RoF freezes through Block does not change the fact that it is a situational spell only and MM is preferable most of the time. Furthermore most good GFs now how to time their encounters and how to use LoS so yeah good luck standing there for 3+ seconds trying to freeze him.
Even with freezing GF's using RoF, its basically useless. They continue to approach you until they are in range to prone lock you. You might get a freeze or two in, but you still end up dead against any half decent GF. As long as they know how their lock combo works, you don't stand a chance.
Mages do need either to have their CC times increased, or have their overall damage boosted. Considering we are 'control' wizards though, I would propose the first option.
I main a 60 mage and the only thing I bother really playing for is pvp. I roll with almost a carbon copy of the thaumaterge build listed here on the forums. The only way I can ever really get kills is with the dots from RoE/CoI, and an occasional Ice Knife (only if the target is debuffed, otherwise IK's damage blows).
As other people have stated, all other classes except clerics do more damage than us without any form of debuffing. Fine, we're control wizards, thats how it should be. But we dont have any real control in pvp. For those saying use shard....screw that. That's a serious waste of a slot. Yes it works, yes it prones, but all you do with shard is prolong your death by a couple seconds.
Wizards were fine before the RoE nerf because it allowed us to put out solid damage. Since the nerf, they've basically just ruined our kill power unless our target is fully debuffed.
On a side note before anyone says L2P or anything. I pvp all the time, I'm well aware of how to play CW's in pvp, how to dodge, and when to dodge and what skills to use at what time and all that junk. This analysis is coming from an experienced pvp CW. We are not much of a threat in pvp, we are squishy, low damage, cloth wearers with poor CC. We go into pvp as a nice big piece of steak waiting for someone to come and take a giant bite out of.
We need a buff on our CC in pvp. I would propose a legitimate nerf to our CC from the pve times, but nothing like what it is.
Entangling Force - Currently 1 second in pvp. Should be changed to 2 seconds, with an additional 1 second with mastery
Steal Time - Currently about .5 seconds in pvp non feated (I would assume this would be brought up to 1 with the feat). Considering its short range and long wind up time, should be 2.5 second stun in pvp, and 3 if feated.
Icy Rays - Currently 2 second lock. This is reasonable considering its instant. Dont change this.
Chill Strike - .5 second interrupt. Might as well not even call this CC, it's just an interrupt. This needs to be increased to 1.5 seconds.
Ray of Frost - Takes a 5 second channel to freeze the target. This should be reduced to 3 seconds.
Shard of Endless Avalanche - It's clunky mechanics make it worthless in pvp. Would need a serious overhaul to make it even worth bothering with.
If these changes are made, it could finally free up encounter slots in pvp and let people run the encounters they Want to, versus those they feel they Have to. Right now my only encounters I ever slot in pvp are RoE, EF, CoI, and CS/IR. There is no room for any play because those are the only skills I have that can actually kill someone, and only if they are debuffed.
EF scales with stacks of arcane mastery. Are you casting it right into combat, when you have no stacks?
Chill freeze breaks from damage. If someone is hitting the person, it wears off faster.
Ice Rays- I have no experience with but 2 sec sounds reasonable.
Most of the CC by other classes only lock down your abilities, but still allow you to move, meaning they can only spam at will attacks against you. CW CC makes enemies completely immobile and unable to act.
Also, CW CC is the only one that has duration depending on other factors. The CC of other classes just have base durations. Ironically, it's probably because we are "the" CC class, that our CC is so much more complicated that other classes. If that too much for your liking, you may want to roll an easier class.
No there is a 1 second window in which the shard materializes and no matter how fast you press the Tab key it stays this way.
Said by someone who did not know that Learned Spellcaster increases damage by a flat 5%. Take your own advice.
Even if RoF freezes through Block does not change the fact that it is a situational spell only and MM is preferable most of the time. Furthermore most good GFs now how to time their encounters and how to use LoS so yeah good luck standing there for 3+ seconds trying to freeze him.
And most players know to bait a GF so someone can get directly behind him and CC. Once that happens, he's dead. I do it all the time on my 60 GWF. A quick sprint behind followed by a well timed TD and it's over. 9/10 times the CW see's me Controlling him and starts to drop his CC's as he gets up, ensuring they hit properly.
The whole point of pointing out the Prones that a CW has was to show that they are there. Whether or not you want to use them or adapt your style to them is your fault. Even without them, the CC's we have are fine.
You should be geared for Recovery and Crit as well. Haven't distributed the last of my points cause there's really no need to.
That's my CW. I'm Renegade as well and I always use RoF in PvP. Especially when I see someone knocked prone or their attention is elsewhere. The quick 5% extra damage granted by bitter cold is a must. I rarely see any CW's use ST in PvP. Easily interrupted and I never use it outside of PvE.
I think this is all stemming from the fact that you're being 1-3 shotted in PvP and in response, you're wanting something in return for your class which isn't needed.
Do we have data to support that claim, or is it just anecdotal?
It's purely my opinion. It just seems like RoF ticks faster and because of that, tend to proc NW and SS better than MM. I use it as a opener as it applies Bitter Cold right away without the cost of burning Chill Strike and can always keep up that 5% with a quick press.
Shard is not worthless it has it's uses against groups the problem is that it is so buggy. It does not crit, it barely if at all builds AP and it is "dispelled" if you get CCed which is quite idiotic. Clunky is a good word it should drop down much faster they need to cut the summoning time in half basically.
It would also be nice if they'd look into Maelstrom and it's feat. The Feat is not worth a lot the chill makes no sense since Renegade does not deal much frost damage usually especdially since MM is the main damage spell. I'd prefer a flat damage increase or that it benefits from Arcane Mastery over the random Chill and Arcane Mastery stacks.
Maelstrom also suffer from not being able to crit tested it several times under the effect of EotS and never got any crit from it which is idiotic since it is already not easy to setup especially in PvP. It is our most damaging AoE move going purely by base damage and that it sends enemies to you to the spot you point give it some interesting options. The damage reduction is also nice its about 75% give or take.
And most players know to bait a GF so someone can get directly behind him and CC. Once that happens, he's dead. I do it all the time on my 60 GWF. A quick sprint behind followed by a well timed TD and it's over. 9/10 times the CW see's me Controlling him and starts to drop his CC's as he gets up, ensuring they hit properly.
The whole point of pointing out the Prones that a CW has was to show that they are there. Whether or not you want to use them or adapt your style to them is your fault. Even without them, the CC's we have are fine.
You should be geared for Recovery and Crit as well. Haven't distributed the last of my points cause there's really no need to.
That's my CW. I'm Renegade as well and I always use RoF in PvP. Especially when I see someone knocked prone or their attention is elsewhere. The quick 5% extra damage granted by bitter cold is a must. I rarely see any CW's use ST in PvP. Easily interrupted and I never use it outside of PvE.
I think this is all stemming from the fact that you're being 1-3 shotted in PvP and in response, you're wanting something in return for your class which isn't needed.
It's purely my opinion. It just seems like RoF ticks faster and because of that, tend to proc NW and SS better than MM. I use it as a opener as it applies Bitter Cold right away without the cost of burning Chill Strike and can always keep up that 5% with a quick press.
So you can beat a GF 2v1 wow what an accomplishment...
No idea why you adress me with prones I am actually one of the few who uses Shard in Tab and gets ridiculed for it but I could not care less I like the spell despite it's shortcomings.
As to CC is enough I disagree purely on the fact other classes can CC just as well, are more durable, have better passive defences and better defensive CDs and can obliterate any CW in one combo something a CW can only do if Ice Knife is up and yes I have seen 15k-30k Lashing Blades, 10k Lunging Strikes, etc and never ever seen any CW whom I played against even remotely coming close to that regardless of his gear and enchantments or all CWs on my server are abdly geared something I doubt.
Only move which deals decent burst damage is Ice Knife that is it. Rest of our moves does low or mediocre damage and does not even CC longer or more reliably than other classes CC. In fact rogues dazes last longer and are about as powerful that you can move normally does squat because if they catch you in a Smokebomb you are dead. Smokebomb is in fact better at CC than anything a CC can offer which is quite sad.
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yaubotMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 24Arc User
Even with freezing GF's using RoF, its basically useless. They continue to approach you until they are in range to prone lock you. You might get a freeze or two in, but you still end up dead against any half decent GF. As long as they know how their lock combo works, you don't stand a chance.
Mages do need either to have their CC times increased, or have their overall damage boosted. Considering we are 'control' wizards though, I would propose the first option.
I main a 60 mage and the only thing I bother really playing for is pvp. I roll with almost a carbon copy of the thaumaterge build listed here on the forums. The only way I can ever really get kills is with the dots from RoE/CoI, and an occasional Ice Knife (only if the target is debuffed, otherwise IK's damage blows).
As other people have stated, all other classes except clerics do more damage than us without any form of debuffing. Fine, we're control wizards, thats how it should be. But we dont have any real control in pvp. For those saying use shard....screw that. That's a serious waste of a slot. Yes it works, yes it prones, but all you do with shard is prolong your death by a couple seconds.
Wizards were fine before the RoE nerf because it allowed us to put out solid damage. Since the nerf, they've basically just ruined our kill power unless our target is fully debuffed.
On a side note before anyone says L2P or anything. I pvp all the time, I'm well aware of how to play CW's in pvp, how to dodge, and when to dodge and what skills to use at what time and all that junk. This analysis is coming from an experienced pvp CW. We are not much of a threat in pvp, we are squishy, low damage, cloth wearers with poor CC. We go into pvp as a nice big piece of steak waiting for someone to come and take a giant bite out of.
We need a buff on our CC in pvp. I would propose a legitimate nerf to our CC from the pve times, but nothing like what it is.
Entangling Force - Currently 1 second in pvp. Should be changed to 2 seconds, with an additional 1 second with mastery
Steal Time - Currently about .5 seconds in pvp non feated (I would assume this would be brought up to 1 with the feat). Considering its short range and long wind up time, should be 2.5 second stun in pvp, and 3 if feated.
Icy Rays - Currently 2 second lock. This is reasonable considering its instant. Dont change this.
Chill Strike - .5 second interrupt. Might as well not even call this CC, it's just an interrupt. This needs to be increased to 1.5 seconds.
Ray of Frost - Takes a 5 second channel to freeze the target. This should be reduced to 3 seconds.
Shard of Endless Avalanche - It's clunky mechanics make it worthless in pvp. Would need a serious overhaul to make it even worth bothering with.
If these changes are made, it could finally free up encounter slots in pvp and let people run the encounters they Want to, versus those they feel they Have to. Right now my only encounters I ever slot in pvp are RoE, EF, CoI, and CS/IR. There is no room for any play because those are the only skills I have that can actually kill someone, and only if they are debuffed.
Let me first say that I play all classes.
I agree completely. I think what some people are misunderstanding here is: All other classes have some way to null CC effects. Okay so shoot off MM before EF to increase duration.. so you are gonna try to get stacks while a GWF is right up in your face cause he broke out of your EF? Then what dodge? They just missed with takedown good for you. but guess what if they miss the cool down gets cut in half; at low level that's 12 seconds to 6 seconds! Not to mention that some of their skill will actually make you rubber band in mid dodge. Oh and lets not forget they don't have to use at will skills to increase duration they even have a class skill that actually works in pvp unlike orb of imposition. The claims that you can freeze a GF through shield is indeed true and I believe it should be fixed but that is such an insignificant glitch to be exploited compared to the severely unbalanced CC durations in pvp.
The point that I keep coming back to is simply this: why is it that in pve, as well as in pvp, all the other class' CC skills duration's unchanged EXCEPT for control wizard? What is the point in playing a CONTROL wizard if you cannot even control in pvp? Its not like we are stunning 5 players at once and the the skill that could is buggy. Other classes already get ITC ,stealth, Unstoppable, Temp Hitpoints, a shield, heals; but cw get a shield that even a rogue can one shot you through. The PVE of this game is balanced why not the PVP?
I won't even get into the fact that there are still bots in pvp even at level 60
Asking for more CC duration doesn't seem that useful to me. It's not going to be helpful versus TRs or GWFs because they can break out of CC. Extended duration might be more useful versus GFs but I think reducing cooldown times is a better approach. That's a little more dps and a little more control in general but avoids increasing burst damage and lengthening duration. It's feels like a fair trade-off since it appears that shorter cooldowns result in less AP generation.
It's purely my opinion [that Ray of Frost fires more procs over time than Magic Missile]. It just seems like RoF ticks faster and because of that, tend to proc NW and SS better than MM. I use it as a opener as it applies Bitter Cold right away without the cost of burning Chill Strike and can always keep up that 5% with a quick press.
My rough guesstimate puts MM at 5 hits in ~3 seconds, with the last 3 hits occurring all at once at the end of the animation. Ray of Frost is harder to gauge, but it sure doesn't seem like RoF ticks faster than 5/3 = 1.67 times per second; to my eye, it seems more like once per second.
Of course, it's also possible that RoF procs more even with a slower attack speed. Maybe the developers went out of their way to toss RoF a bone.
The only way to know for sure is to record a long spam fest with each power (say, a minute's worth or more), and then average the attacks over the period of the test. I was planning to do something like that eventually anyway, but I may have to work on it sooner just for the sake of curiosity. Personally, I don't much care for or about PvP, but I like RoF visually and it'd be nice to find out that some of the less-appreciated At-Will powers aren't quite as bad as people say.
EF scales with stacks of arcane mastery. Are you casting it right into combat, when you have no stacks?
Chill freeze breaks from damage. If someone is hitting the person, it wears off faster.
Ice Rays- I have no experience with but 2 sec sounds reasonable.
Most of the CC by other classes only lock down your abilities, but still allow you to move, meaning they can only spam at will attacks against you. CW CC makes enemies completely immobile and unable to act.
Also, CW CC is the only one that has duration depending on other factors. The CC of other classes just have base durations. Ironically, it's probably because we are "the" CC class, that our CC is so much more complicated that other classes. If that too much for your liking, you may want to roll an easier class.
Bull****. Prone of any kind = 2-3 seconds of pure CC. CW stuns and entangling are useless in comparison thanks to block/ItC/unstoppable (3/5 classes).
The average GF can take down 40-60% of a CW's hp with 2 of their prone encounters. You are proned for close to 4-5 seconds just like that. If he uses his line prone/knockdown aoe, that would make it 3 prones in a row. You can't do jack **** in that condition. Have fun CCing him while he blocks and approaches you. Hell, really good GFs will time their blocks to your casting of encounters cause our casting animation and speed is too darn slow (EF and chillstrike especially).
The average-good GWF will bait you with their at-wills till you expend your teleports, then use unstoppable>sprint>takedown>IBS>restoring (or flourish>takedown>IBS) and you will lose anywhere between 50-100% of your hp in that one combo. Your CCs are useless against a non-idiotic GWF since they get so much up-time with unstoppable.
TRs have too many ways to kill you with you being unable to do anything. Stealth>shadow strike (dazed)>lashing>deft strike. Simply Stealth>cloud of steel>impact shot. Lurkers>stealth>lashing for 1-shot. Impact shot for 2-3 hit kills. Then they have ItC.
We have the lowest encounter base damage among the classes as well (not counting DC). My GWF/TR/CW all have T1 main-hand weapons (ice axe on GWF). 3.2k power on CW, 2k power on TR, 3.3k power on GWF.
CW: 3k chillstrike (0.5seconds stun)/2.3k entangling (0.5-1 second choke, does no damage against cc immune)/1.7k icy rays (2seconds immobilize, enemy still able to attack via range, barely does more damage against chill strike with transcended master feat + mastery slot)
vs
TR: 5.6k lashing blade/4k dazing strike (3secs daze)/3k deft strike (teleport)/ 3k impact shot (3 charges, free charge via stealth, momentarily interrupts movement via mini push)
GWF: 4.85k IBS/3.8k flourish (0.5seconds stun, 1 seconds with feat)/2.7k takedown (prone)/3.2k restoring (heal)
Lets face it. The only classes a CW can kill 1v1 on equal conditions is another CW or DC. Bad TRs who don't use ItC/stealth don't count.
Asking for more CC duration doesn't seem that useful to me. It's not going to be helpful versus TRs or GWFs because they can break out of CC. Extended duration might be more useful versus GFs but I think reducing cooldown times is a better approach. That's a little more dps and a little more control in general but avoids increasing burst damage and lengthening duration. It's feels like a fair trade-off since it appears that shorter cooldowns result in less AP generation.
How about giving CWs an encounter that is instant cast, increases casting speed by 25%, CC duration by 50% and is able to bypass all CC immunity for 5 seconds? Sounds like the perfect solution to me. The anti ItC/Unstoppable/block.
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inexgravMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited July 2013
AND Please stop it my daily skill sound effect. (ice knife) He hear my daily sound from 20ft away. and he can easy dodge..
entangling (0.5-1 second choke, does no damage against cc immune)
EF still applies it's Damage, just no CC.
The average GF can take down 40-60% of a CW's hp with 2 of their prone encounters. You are proned for close to 4-5 seconds just like that. If he uses his line prone/knockdown aoe, that would make it 3 prones in a row. You can't do jack **** in that condition. Have fun CCing him while he blocks and approaches you. Hell, really good GFs will time their blocks to your casting of encounters cause our casting animation and speed is too darn slow (EF and chillstrike especially).
Here we go again. Why are you trying to win a 1v1 battle where you are obviously at a disadvantage at? No amount of additional CC would even help. This is where all the *****ing stems from. Folks not understanding their class. Instead of trying to win that 1v1 battle, disengage and regroup with some teammates for that encounter. On my GWF and CW, specially on my GWF, I can't stand perma stealth TR's. The good ones are ridiculous. Do I ***** that I need more buffs? No, I'll disengage.
The average-good GWF will bait you with their at-wills till you expend your teleports, then use unstoppable>sprint>takedown>IBS>restoring (or flourish>takedown>IBS) and you will lose anywhere between 50-100% of your hp in that one combo. Your CCs are useless against a non-idiotic GWF since they get so much up-time with unstoppable.
And a good CW knows that a GWF not sprinting up with Unstoppable on is baiting him. Burn a tele, disengage the fight, and regroup with teammates. I see it happen all the time, and it's the <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> ones who burn 3 tele's instantly and get rocked. It's the smart ones who fall back to a GF or a Stealthed Rogue and re-engage properly.
TRs have too many ways to kill you with you being unable to do anything. Stealth>shadow strike (dazed)>lashing>deft strike. Simply Stealth>cloud of steel>impact shot. Lurkers>stealth>lashing for 1-shot. Impact shot for 2-3 hit kills. Then they have ItC.
Can't argue there. I've eaten my fair share of 19k LB's on my GWF and CW, not to mention 1/2 HP Stealthed Cloud of Steel on my GWF when trying to back cap. That's why I tend to engage only if I spot them in stealth quickly, if someone else has spotted and CC'd, or if they're on the battlefield non stealthed.
We have the lowest encounter base damage among the classes as well (not counting DC). My GWF/TR/CW all have T1 main-hand weapons (ice axe on GWF). 3.2k power on CW, 2k power on TR, 3.3k power on GWF.
Learn to drop your encounters properly. Proc Bitter Cold with RoF, NW Procs which in turn, will cause Phantasmal to proc. That's why we Cycle in RoE's. End with a Ice Knife or At-Will spam to Ice Knife. The rest of the DPS classes all follow a similar rotation for kills. You're basically complaining that they have a prone and you don't and that your CC's don't cut it, which is 100% bull****.
/thread this. I really don't see anything productive coming out of posts between any of us here.
Oh my, yes be happy to be a second grade class with little benefit to your team. Not outstanding in any particular way besides being ranged which does not mean much in this game and being <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> at holding a point.
Also funny to see that all your argument evolves around people using YOUR PvP specc. Wakeup call, people have different builds so your "advice" is so pointless it is not funny.
Also good GWFs cannot be baited they know when you try to bait them. At best they might chose a different target but GWF is the No.1 class in this game bar none no other class has such a good combination of damage, damage reduction, mobility and CC as GWFs and I remember LS saying they restrict themselves to 2 GWFs in their premade.
EF scales with stacks of arcane mastery. Are you casting it right into combat, when you have no stacks?
Chill freeze breaks from damage. If someone is hitting the person, it wears off faster.
Ice Rays- I have no experience with but 2 sec sounds reasonable.
Most of the CC by other classes only lock down your abilities, but still allow you to move, meaning they can only spam at will attacks against you. CW CC makes enemies completely immobile and unable to act.
Also, CW CC is the only one that has duration depending on other factors. The CC of other classes just have base durations. Ironically, it's probably because we are "the" CC class, that our CC is so much more complicated that other classes. If that too much for your liking, you may want to roll an easier class.
This makes no sense. You rarely have the time to build up 5 stacks of mastery and just for your information EF builds it up to. Sow what do you want to tell us don't use CC until you have 5 stacks of AM are you serious? Which GOOD team lets you build up AM? AM does not make us more complicated just cumbersome in PvP. It's a fine mechanic in PvE but pointless in PvP unless every MM would build up a stack just like RoF. As it is getting 5 stacks of MM requires you to be ignored or at a position where the enemy cannot reach you, good luck with that.
In fact being the supposedly best CC class I'd expect us to have countermoves against immunities beside running around like headless chickens and all our CC should have at least base duration similar to other classes without AM and with AM we should have CC superiority because we are the CONTROL wizards. Not 3 shotty punching bags which can be annoying and occasional lethal with Ice Knife thats not what I rolled this class for.
Oh my, yes be happy to be a second grade class with little benefit to your team. Not outstanding in any particular way besides being ranged which does not mean much in this game and being <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> at holding a point.
Also funny to see that all your argument evolves around people using YOUR PvP specc. Wakeup call, people have different builds so your "advice" is so pointless it is not funny.
Also good GWFs cannot be baited they know when you try to bait them. At best they might chose a different target but GWF is the No.1 class in this game bar none no other class has such a good combination of damage, damage reduction, mobility and CC as GWFs and I remember LS saying they restrict themselves to 2 GWFs in their premade.
This makes no sense. You rarely have the time to build up 5 stacks of mastery and just for your information EF builds it up to. Sow what do you want to tell us don't use CC until you have 5 stacks of AM are you serious? Which GOOD team lets you build up AM? AM does not make us more complicated just cumbersome in PvP. It's a fine mechanic in PvE but pointless in PvP unless every MM would build up a stack just like RoF. As it is getting 5 stacks of MM requires you to be ignored or at a position where the enemy cannot reach you, good luck with that.
In fact being the supposedly best CC class I'd expect us to have countermoves against immunities beside running around like headless chickens and all our CC should have at least base duration similar to other classes without AM and with AM we should have CC superiority because we are the CONTROL wizards. Not 3 shotty punching bags which can be annoying and occasional lethal with Ice Knife thats not what I rolled this class for.
I'm so tired of your *****ing it's not even funny. I'm done with this thread after this reply.
Nothing says you have to use "my" build which isn't even mine. My build works for MY gameplay. Apparently, you chose a build that doesn't work for you. If you dumped all 31 points into Renegade, you should respec.
Not enough time to build AM stacks? You're joking right? 2 cycles of MM followed by 2 RoE. Oh look, that's 4 stacks. You don't want RoE on tab? Oh my, that's 3 stacks you just built almost instantaneously.
So you can beat a GF 2v1 wow what an accomplishment...
Why would I want to fight a GF 1v1 when that's where they shine best? From that statement alone, you seem like the person who complains about getting 3v1'd in a team setting environment.
Also good GWFs cannot be baited they know when you try to bait them.
Then disengage and regroup like I said. You're not going to win every encounter. The more and more you post, it seems like you run into an encounter, expect to win 100% of the time, and never disengage.
Little benefit? They offer some of the best support when your team pays attention. I'll take a good CW or another GWF as backup over any other class in PvP just for the rotation of CC's. Even if they don't pay attention, you have the ability kite and delay until back up arrives and in some cases, win 1v1's.
I didn't even bother to mention Ice Storm which has and airborne effect AND prone effect. IMO, it has some of the best utility for point defending. Especially when paired with Icy Terrain or a Tabbed Chill Strike.
The fact is, AGAIN, there is more than enough CC available for the CW and the duration is fine. Your class mechanics require to play a certain way, which you obviously do not like.
I hope in time, you find a build and power setup that suits your gamestlye. Have a nice day.
Accusing me of BS while spouting BS all day long, pure classic.
I don't use RoE just we are clear about it and I will never use it. Also 2 rounds of MM pluse RoF takes about 5-6 seconds which is quite long in PvP terms.
Unlike you it seems I play against smart players more often which force me to kite most of the game especially TRs preventing me from building AM in a meaningful way. Heck quite often I kite from 1-3 all over the map trying lure the little kill horny idiots away from the nodes. Does not change the fact that I tickle them to death while all 3 melee classes 2-4 shot me once they are around 10k GS with decent enchantments.
I actually have no problem with my build I do fine though not outstanding, but then again I have seen NO CW who does outstanding in PvP, same goes for DC.
What are you talking about "Ice Storm"? There is no such skill as "Ice Storm". From your description you seem to mean "Mealstrom of Chaos" which is the only Daily I know about doing this and is in fact a Daily I use and I am fairly sure I am pretty alone with it.
The more I read of your <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> I must asume you play against terribads and yes I "retreat" all the time because guess what we are relatively easy kills for TRs, we struggle against GWFs and GFs, other CWs are about equal give or take depending on skills and feats, same goes for DCs, some are seem nigh unkillable, some seem to get eaten alive.
Retreating and kiting is the only way to not constantly be in double digit death count because we have very poor passive and active defences and our CC is mediocre.
Here we go again. Why are you trying to win a 1v1 battle where you are obviously at a disadvantage at? No amount of additional CC would even help. This is where all the *****ing stems from. Folks not understanding their class. Instead of trying to win that 1v1 battle, disengage and regroup with some teammates for that encounter. On my GWF and CW, specially on my GWF, I can't stand perma stealth TR's. The good ones are ridiculous. Do I ***** that I need more buffs? No, I'll disengage.
Ok, so against good/strong classes we have to run away and get help. For domination, not contesting or defending points because we have to get help is basically hurting the team. Doesn't seem like a real solution.
And a good CW knows that a GWF not sprinting up with Unstoppable on is baiting him. Burn a tele, disengage the fight, and regroup with teammates. I see it happen all the time, and it's the <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> ones who burn 3 tele's instantly and get rocked. It's the smart ones who fall back to a GF or a Stealthed Rogue and re-engage properly.
Again valiantly running away in domination hurts the team and lessens the chance you win. What happens if you end up in a team with 1 TR, 2 DC and 2 CWs? TRs gonna have sore back from carrying old the dead weight it seems.
Can't argue there. I've eaten my fair share of 19k LB's on my GWF and CW, not to mention 1/2 HP Stealthed Cloud of Steel on my GWF when trying to back cap. That's why I tend to engage only if I spot them in stealth quickly, if someone else has spotted and CC'd, or if they're on the battlefield non stealthed.
Learn to drop your encounters properly. Proc Bitter Cold with RoF, NW Procs which in turn, will cause Phantasmal to proc. That's why we Cycle in RoE's. End with a Ice Knife or At-Will spam to Ice Knife. The rest of the DPS classes all follow a similar rotation for kills. You're basically complaining that they have a prone and you don't and that your CC's don't cut it, which is 100% bull****.
/thread this. I really don't see anything productive coming out of posts between any of us here.
You just spent the past paragraphs saying you have to run away versus good GWFs/GFs/TRs, doesn't seem that dropping encounters properly works for you because you just run away 80% of the time.
Only if they popped their immunity after you cast EF. If they pop immunity mid-cast of EF, you deal no damage with it. Just like how casting EF on a boss does nothing.
Here we go again. Why are you trying to win a 1v1 battle where you are obviously at a disadvantage at? No amount of additional CC would even help. This is where all the *****ing stems from. Folks not understanding their class. Instead of trying to win that 1v1 battle, disengage and regroup with some teammates for that encounter. On my GWF and CW, specially on my GWF, I can't stand perma stealth TR's. The good ones are ridiculous. Do I ***** that I need more buffs? No, I'll disengage.
So if I'm the only one at the cap and a GWF/TR/GF approaches, I should just run away, giving him the cap, and go cry to my team for backup? Even if they are all busy at the other cap points? Sounds more like I should just not PVP meaningfully with my CW and just stick to my TR and GWF from what you are saying.
And a good CW knows that a GWF not sprinting up with Unstoppable on is baiting him. Burn a tele, disengage the fight, and regroup with teammates. I see it happen all the time, and it's the <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> ones who burn 3 tele's instantly and get rocked. It's the smart ones who fall back to a GF or a Stealthed Rogue and re-engage properly.
I don't burn 3 at once against a GWF and I still get burned really quickly since their at-wills ACTUALLY DO DECENT DAMAGE. So either I retreat while eating damage while waiting for them to cast their encounters and use my dodge, or I get caught by their stun (which rubberbands us CWs even with a dodge, especially if they spec for the additional stun on last hit) or their prone skill. Them using crescendo (daily) instantly takes off 50-80% hp while stunning us for the entire duration (and us not having any counter like unstoppable/ItC to escape) means we will almost always get caught in it.
Can't argue there. I've eaten my fair share of 19k LB's on my GWF and CW, not to mention 1/2 HP Stealthed Cloud of Steel on my GWF when trying to back cap. That's why I tend to engage only if I spot them in stealth quickly, if someone else has spotted and CC'd, or if they're on the battlefield non stealthed.
And then they pop ItC while you attempt to engage them just because they were "not stealthed", then proceed to kill you in that 5 seconds of CC immunity PLUS 75% damage reduction from their deflect (or no damage at all if popped from stealth). Yea, brilliant idea.
Learn to drop your encounters properly. Proc Bitter Cold with RoF, NW Procs which in turn, will cause Phantasmal to proc. That's why we Cycle in RoE's. End with a Ice Knife or At-Will spam to Ice Knife. The rest of the DPS classes all follow a similar rotation for kills. You're basically complaining that they have a prone and you don't and that your CC's don't cut it, which is 100% bull****.
/thread this. I really don't see anything productive coming out of posts between any of us here.
Stop assuming that everyone runs YOUR SPEC. Unless, of course, you are suggesting that your build is the only viable PVP spec in the game and that 95% of PVP CWs are doing it wrong. And stop including Ice Knife in the combo like its an encounter. It is not. I find the GWF daily MUCH easier to score hits on compared to Ice Knife simply because it DOESN'T make a freaking loud noise to warn my target that it is coming. Don't even get me started on how it wastes the AP bar when the target rolls out of LoS.
Leveled my TR to 36 so far and I feel much stronger and useful and I do not even have Smokebomb yet but I have more disruptive power and more burst already and once I got Smokebomb I got superior CC as well. I usually top damage and kill charts while having even a bit less deaths to boot ItC is so **** strong if timed well.
Nice sideeffect I can dodge Leashig Blade better on my CW because I got a better feel for the class now.
No there is a 1 second window in which the shard materializes and no matter how fast you press the Tab key it stays this way.
exactly, and EF is 2 sec, hence there is no window if ur using it instant, i have used it over 1000 times, how many have you? try it urself if u still dont believe me, only halflings have this window, since EF is 1 or 1,5 sec on them
No EF does not hold 2 seconds, tested it times and again EF -> Shard depending on class there is a small window they can use shift ability. I use this combo ever since I got shard so please stop trying to educate me I tried it often enough.
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yaubotMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 24Arc User
You just spent the past paragraphs saying you have to run away versus good GWFs/GFs/TRs, doesn't seem that dropping encounters properly works for you because you just run away 80% of the time.
I ROFL'd so hard at that! :rolleyes:
If you break down everything for PVP domination it pretty much a 1 on 1 fight. 5v5 1v1 I see no reason as to why we should run away.. I can even manage taking 2 people down even on a control wizard but the other players are complete novices and don't know how to play. As aklqop1 said run to your team mates loose the fight? In some respect that is correct but in others you still loose even though you kill more of the enemy team. At the current set up you have people who don't pay attention to nodes and those that rush over with 3 people going to that node.. how would it be if 1 enemy was going to your base node and 1, just 1, from your team went and killed him? Pretty effient I'd say but according to shultzy here its better to run away.. ever see a CW run away before? It's d*** near impossible. You have no heals, GWF can sprint to you TR can port to you, other CW and DC are ranged.. in fact the only class you can really escape is a GF yet most of the time they lock ya down with prone attacks they even have a port skill too.. No Shultzy no running away almost never works and if you can't even attempt to 1v1 I think simply you should play a game more your speed.. maybe farmville.
It was also mentioned that cool downs should be decreased.. I see no point in reducing cool downs in a class that can max out intelligence especially since pvp gear gives you cool down on the tabbed slot. Casting time reduced seems nice for chill strike and it would be nice if steal time and Shard didn't glitch so much. If you time things right even with EF being nulled thanks to unstoppable if you have enough recovery it wont matter. but a duration that's like tripping someone is not effective especially since other classes can prone lock you or one shot you with out the need to build AM to increase their duration.
AND AGAIN PVE duration's for these skills are not the same for pvp. All other classes have the same exact same CC duration both in and out of PVP with the exception of control wizards! So, I ask the moderators and devs viewing this: why is that?
CWs are pretty much screwed when engaged by any of the 3 classes listed above. We don't have anything to escape with (no mighty leap type skill or stealth),
3 teleports.
Even TRs only have 2 & most won't take deft strike (the teleport strike) since it's quite weak.
Too many CWs think that melee classes literally have to be in melee range before they start fighting back.
& too many don't know how to teleport properly.
Teleporting TOWARDS the melee enemy is usually a bad idea. (Even teleporting sideways is typically bad since they'll usually be attempting to close the distance.)
GF actually has a pretty big circle of death where they can initiate their charge + prone combo. They'll simply turtle their way towards you slowly until they can jump at your face. Unless you has lightning quick reflexes, good luck avoiding it.
GWF's abilities tend to have a few meters in length.
TR's can dodge roll into you & most of their abilities are instant cast. (curiously their dazes have a delay to them.)
3 teleports.
Even TRs only have 2 & most won't take deft strike (the teleport strike) since it's quite weak.
Too many CWs think that melee classes literally have to be in melee range before they start fighting back.
& too many don't know how to teleport properly.
Teleporting TOWARDS the melee enemy is usually a bad idea. (Even teleporting sideways is typically bad since they'll usually be attempting to close the distance.)
GF actually has a pretty big circle of death where they can initiate their charge + prone combo. They'll simply turtle their way towards you slowly until they can jump at your face. Unless you has lightning quick reflexes, good luck avoiding it.
GWF's abilities tend to have a few meters in length.
TR's can dodge roll into you & most of their abilities are instant cast. (curiously their dazes have a delay to them.)
Ice Knife: 50k+ damage
Singularity: ~4 seconds pull + ~2 seconds of prone
Yes, yes you are a control wizard.
No, we are DEAD wizard.
And why? because rogues killed us. PvP as CW is horrible experience.
it's not the cw itself that sucks in pvp it's just how the games and other classes work. We cant fight on points, we dont have anything against a perm stealth tr or any outs out of cc. Our dmg is fine with godly pvp gear. Range classes arent rly viable atm that's it. We are decent at kiting 1v1 but that's not viable when fighting for points. Just play a tr without stealth and ITC and you know how we feel atleast in premade games not talking about pug stomping. Furthermore we dont bring anything that other classes cant do, u just can replace a CW for every other classes and they will do better.
To make CW on pair with other classes u dont need to buff CW u just need to turn down the dmg of cloud of steel and maybe give ur dodge the ablity to reduce incoming dmg for x seconds after use or make us immun to incoming dmg for 1 sec.
And for the love of god reduce the castime of chillstrike and entangle!
Even with freezing GF's using RoF, its basically useless. They continue to approach you until they are in range to prone lock you. You might get a freeze or two in, but you still end up dead against any half decent GF. As long as they know how their lock combo works, you don't stand a chance.
Mages do need either to have their CC times increased, or have their overall damage boosted. Considering we are 'control' wizards though, I would propose the first option.
I main a 60 mage and the only thing I bother really playing for is pvp. I roll with almost a carbon copy of the thaumaterge build listed here on the forums. The only way I can ever really get kills is with the dots from RoE/CoI, and an occasional Ice Knife (only if the target is debuffed, otherwise IK's damage blows).
As other people have stated, all other classes except clerics do more damage than us without any form of debuffing. Fine, we're control wizards, thats how it should be. But we dont have any real control in pvp. For those saying use shard....screw that. That's a serious waste of a slot. Yes it works, yes it prones, but all you do with shard is prolong your death by a couple seconds.
Wizards were fine before the RoE nerf because it allowed us to put out solid damage. Since the nerf, they've basically just ruined our kill power unless our target is fully debuffed.
On a side note before anyone says L2P or anything. I pvp all the time, I'm well aware of how to play CW's in pvp, how to dodge, and when to dodge and what skills to use at what time and all that junk. This analysis is coming from an experienced pvp CW. We are not much of a threat in pvp, we are squishy, low damage, cloth wearers with poor CC. We go into pvp as a nice big piece of steak waiting for someone to come and take a giant bite out of.
We need a buff on our CC in pvp. I would propose a legitimate nerf to our CC from the pve times, but nothing like what it is.
Entangling Force - Currently 1 second in pvp. Should be changed to 2 seconds, with an additional 1 second with mastery
Steal Time - Currently about .5 seconds in pvp non feated (I would assume this would be brought up to 1 with the feat). Considering its short range and long wind up time, should be 2.5 second stun in pvp, and 3 if feated.
Icy Rays - Currently 2 second lock. This is reasonable considering its instant. Dont change this.
Chill Strike - .5 second interrupt. Might as well not even call this CC, it's just an interrupt. This needs to be increased to 1.5 seconds.
Ray of Frost - Takes a 5 second channel to freeze the target. This should be reduced to 3 seconds.
Shard of Endless Avalanche - It's clunky mechanics make it worthless in pvp. Would need a serious overhaul to make it even worth bothering with.
If these changes are made, it could finally free up encounter slots in pvp and let people run the encounters they Want to, versus those they feel they Have to. Right now my only encounters I ever slot in pvp are RoE, EF, CoI, and CS/IR. There is no room for any play because those are the only skills I have that can actually kill someone, and only if they are debuffed.
i agree with everything this gentleman states. i also main a lvl 60 CW although i admit i am most likely under geared compared to the gentleman above. i also only use the same skills he listed because they are the only ones that are effective in pvp. i would very much like to be able to use the other skills but their worthless.
Comments
Said by someone who did not know that Learned Spellcaster increases damage by a flat 5%. Take your own advice.
Even if RoF freezes through Block does not change the fact that it is a situational spell only and MM is preferable most of the time. Furthermore most good GFs now how to time their encounters and how to use LoS so yeah good luck standing there for 3+ seconds trying to freeze him.
Mages do need either to have their CC times increased, or have their overall damage boosted. Considering we are 'control' wizards though, I would propose the first option.
I main a 60 mage and the only thing I bother really playing for is pvp. I roll with almost a carbon copy of the thaumaterge build listed here on the forums. The only way I can ever really get kills is with the dots from RoE/CoI, and an occasional Ice Knife (only if the target is debuffed, otherwise IK's damage blows).
As other people have stated, all other classes except clerics do more damage than us without any form of debuffing. Fine, we're control wizards, thats how it should be. But we dont have any real control in pvp. For those saying use shard....screw that. That's a serious waste of a slot. Yes it works, yes it prones, but all you do with shard is prolong your death by a couple seconds.
Wizards were fine before the RoE nerf because it allowed us to put out solid damage. Since the nerf, they've basically just ruined our kill power unless our target is fully debuffed.
On a side note before anyone says L2P or anything. I pvp all the time, I'm well aware of how to play CW's in pvp, how to dodge, and when to dodge and what skills to use at what time and all that junk. This analysis is coming from an experienced pvp CW. We are not much of a threat in pvp, we are squishy, low damage, cloth wearers with poor CC. We go into pvp as a nice big piece of steak waiting for someone to come and take a giant bite out of.
We need a buff on our CC in pvp. I would propose a legitimate nerf to our CC from the pve times, but nothing like what it is.
Entangling Force - Currently 1 second in pvp. Should be changed to 2 seconds, with an additional 1 second with mastery
Steal Time - Currently about .5 seconds in pvp non feated (I would assume this would be brought up to 1 with the feat). Considering its short range and long wind up time, should be 2.5 second stun in pvp, and 3 if feated.
Icy Rays - Currently 2 second lock. This is reasonable considering its instant. Dont change this.
Chill Strike - .5 second interrupt. Might as well not even call this CC, it's just an interrupt. This needs to be increased to 1.5 seconds.
Ray of Frost - Takes a 5 second channel to freeze the target. This should be reduced to 3 seconds.
Shard of Endless Avalanche - It's clunky mechanics make it worthless in pvp. Would need a serious overhaul to make it even worth bothering with.
If these changes are made, it could finally free up encounter slots in pvp and let people run the encounters they Want to, versus those they feel they Have to. Right now my only encounters I ever slot in pvp are RoE, EF, CoI, and CS/IR. There is no room for any play because those are the only skills I have that can actually kill someone, and only if they are debuffed.
EF scales with stacks of arcane mastery. Are you casting it right into combat, when you have no stacks?
Chill freeze breaks from damage. If someone is hitting the person, it wears off faster.
Ice Rays- I have no experience with but 2 sec sounds reasonable.
Most of the CC by other classes only lock down your abilities, but still allow you to move, meaning they can only spam at will attacks against you. CW CC makes enemies completely immobile and unable to act.
Also, CW CC is the only one that has duration depending on other factors. The CC of other classes just have base durations. Ironically, it's probably because we are "the" CC class, that our CC is so much more complicated that other classes. If that too much for your liking, you may want to roll an easier class.
And most players know to bait a GF so someone can get directly behind him and CC. Once that happens, he's dead. I do it all the time on my 60 GWF. A quick sprint behind followed by a well timed TD and it's over. 9/10 times the CW see's me Controlling him and starts to drop his CC's as he gets up, ensuring they hit properly.
The whole point of pointing out the Prones that a CW has was to show that they are there. Whether or not you want to use them or adapt your style to them is your fault. Even without them, the CC's we have are fine.
http://nwcalc.com/cw?b=p8b:4i9dg:8ern,1fh30i3:6u000:b0000:b5551&h=1
You should be geared for Recovery and Crit as well. Haven't distributed the last of my points cause there's really no need to.
That's my CW. I'm Renegade as well and I always use RoF in PvP. Especially when I see someone knocked prone or their attention is elsewhere. The quick 5% extra damage granted by bitter cold is a must. I rarely see any CW's use ST in PvP. Easily interrupted and I never use it outside of PvE.
I think this is all stemming from the fact that you're being 1-3 shotted in PvP and in response, you're wanting something in return for your class which isn't needed.
It's purely my opinion. It just seems like RoF ticks faster and because of that, tend to proc NW and SS better than MM. I use it as a opener as it applies Bitter Cold right away without the cost of burning Chill Strike and can always keep up that 5% with a quick press.
It would also be nice if they'd look into Maelstrom and it's feat. The Feat is not worth a lot the chill makes no sense since Renegade does not deal much frost damage usually especdially since MM is the main damage spell. I'd prefer a flat damage increase or that it benefits from Arcane Mastery over the random Chill and Arcane Mastery stacks.
Maelstrom also suffer from not being able to crit tested it several times under the effect of EotS and never got any crit from it which is idiotic since it is already not easy to setup especially in PvP. It is our most damaging AoE move going purely by base damage and that it sends enemies to you to the spot you point give it some interesting options. The damage reduction is also nice its about 75% give or take.
So you can beat a GF 2v1 wow what an accomplishment...
No idea why you adress me with prones I am actually one of the few who uses Shard in Tab and gets ridiculed for it but I could not care less I like the spell despite it's shortcomings.
As to CC is enough I disagree purely on the fact other classes can CC just as well, are more durable, have better passive defences and better defensive CDs and can obliterate any CW in one combo something a CW can only do if Ice Knife is up and yes I have seen 15k-30k Lashing Blades, 10k Lunging Strikes, etc and never ever seen any CW whom I played against even remotely coming close to that regardless of his gear and enchantments or all CWs on my server are abdly geared something I doubt.
Only move which deals decent burst damage is Ice Knife that is it. Rest of our moves does low or mediocre damage and does not even CC longer or more reliably than other classes CC. In fact rogues dazes last longer and are about as powerful that you can move normally does squat because if they catch you in a Smokebomb you are dead. Smokebomb is in fact better at CC than anything a CC can offer which is quite sad.
Let me first say that I play all classes.
I agree completely. I think what some people are misunderstanding here is: All other classes have some way to null CC effects. Okay so shoot off MM before EF to increase duration.. so you are gonna try to get stacks while a GWF is right up in your face cause he broke out of your EF? Then what dodge? They just missed with takedown good for you. but guess what if they miss the cool down gets cut in half; at low level that's 12 seconds to 6 seconds! Not to mention that some of their skill will actually make you rubber band in mid dodge. Oh and lets not forget they don't have to use at will skills to increase duration they even have a class skill that actually works in pvp unlike orb of imposition. The claims that you can freeze a GF through shield is indeed true and I believe it should be fixed but that is such an insignificant glitch to be exploited compared to the severely unbalanced CC durations in pvp.
The point that I keep coming back to is simply this: why is it that in pve, as well as in pvp, all the other class' CC skills duration's unchanged EXCEPT for control wizard? What is the point in playing a CONTROL wizard if you cannot even control in pvp? Its not like we are stunning 5 players at once and the the skill that could is buggy. Other classes already get ITC ,stealth, Unstoppable, Temp Hitpoints, a shield, heals; but cw get a shield that even a rogue can one shot you through. The PVE of this game is balanced why not the PVP?
I won't even get into the fact that there are still bots in pvp even at level 60
My rough guesstimate puts MM at 5 hits in ~3 seconds, with the last 3 hits occurring all at once at the end of the animation. Ray of Frost is harder to gauge, but it sure doesn't seem like RoF ticks faster than 5/3 = 1.67 times per second; to my eye, it seems more like once per second.
Of course, it's also possible that RoF procs more even with a slower attack speed. Maybe the developers went out of their way to toss RoF a bone.
The only way to know for sure is to record a long spam fest with each power (say, a minute's worth or more), and then average the attacks over the period of the test. I was planning to do something like that eventually anyway, but I may have to work on it sooner just for the sake of curiosity. Personally, I don't much care for or about PvP, but I like RoF visually and it'd be nice to find out that some of the less-appreciated At-Will powers aren't quite as bad as people say.
The average GF can take down 40-60% of a CW's hp with 2 of their prone encounters. You are proned for close to 4-5 seconds just like that. If he uses his line prone/knockdown aoe, that would make it 3 prones in a row. You can't do jack **** in that condition. Have fun CCing him while he blocks and approaches you. Hell, really good GFs will time their blocks to your casting of encounters cause our casting animation and speed is too darn slow (EF and chillstrike especially).
The average-good GWF will bait you with their at-wills till you expend your teleports, then use unstoppable>sprint>takedown>IBS>restoring (or flourish>takedown>IBS) and you will lose anywhere between 50-100% of your hp in that one combo. Your CCs are useless against a non-idiotic GWF since they get so much up-time with unstoppable.
TRs have too many ways to kill you with you being unable to do anything. Stealth>shadow strike (dazed)>lashing>deft strike. Simply Stealth>cloud of steel>impact shot. Lurkers>stealth>lashing for 1-shot. Impact shot for 2-3 hit kills. Then they have ItC.
We have the lowest encounter base damage among the classes as well (not counting DC). My GWF/TR/CW all have T1 main-hand weapons (ice axe on GWF). 3.2k power on CW, 2k power on TR, 3.3k power on GWF.
CW: 3k chillstrike (0.5seconds stun)/2.3k entangling (0.5-1 second choke, does no damage against cc immune)/1.7k icy rays (2seconds immobilize, enemy still able to attack via range, barely does more damage against chill strike with transcended master feat + mastery slot)
vs
TR: 5.6k lashing blade/4k dazing strike (3secs daze)/3k deft strike (teleport)/ 3k impact shot (3 charges, free charge via stealth, momentarily interrupts movement via mini push)
GWF: 4.85k IBS/3.8k flourish (0.5seconds stun, 1 seconds with feat)/2.7k takedown (prone)/3.2k restoring (heal)
Lets face it. The only classes a CW can kill 1v1 on equal conditions is another CW or DC. Bad TRs who don't use ItC/stealth don't count. How about giving CWs an encounter that is instant cast, increases casting speed by 25%, CC duration by 50% and is able to bypass all CC immunity for 5 seconds? Sounds like the perfect solution to me. The anti ItC/Unstoppable/block.
EF still applies it's Damage, just no CC.
Here we go again. Why are you trying to win a 1v1 battle where you are obviously at a disadvantage at? No amount of additional CC would even help. This is where all the *****ing stems from. Folks not understanding their class. Instead of trying to win that 1v1 battle, disengage and regroup with some teammates for that encounter. On my GWF and CW, specially on my GWF, I can't stand perma stealth TR's. The good ones are ridiculous. Do I ***** that I need more buffs? No, I'll disengage.
And a good CW knows that a GWF not sprinting up with Unstoppable on is baiting him. Burn a tele, disengage the fight, and regroup with teammates. I see it happen all the time, and it's the <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> ones who burn 3 tele's instantly and get rocked. It's the smart ones who fall back to a GF or a Stealthed Rogue and re-engage properly.
Can't argue there. I've eaten my fair share of 19k LB's on my GWF and CW, not to mention 1/2 HP Stealthed Cloud of Steel on my GWF when trying to back cap. That's why I tend to engage only if I spot them in stealth quickly, if someone else has spotted and CC'd, or if they're on the battlefield non stealthed.
Learn to drop your encounters properly. Proc Bitter Cold with RoF, NW Procs which in turn, will cause Phantasmal to proc. That's why we Cycle in RoE's. End with a Ice Knife or At-Will spam to Ice Knife. The rest of the DPS classes all follow a similar rotation for kills. You're basically complaining that they have a prone and you don't and that your CC's don't cut it, which is 100% bull****.
/thread this. I really don't see anything productive coming out of posts between any of us here.
Also funny to see that all your argument evolves around people using YOUR PvP specc. Wakeup call, people have different builds so your "advice" is so pointless it is not funny.
Also good GWFs cannot be baited they know when you try to bait them. At best they might chose a different target but GWF is the No.1 class in this game bar none no other class has such a good combination of damage, damage reduction, mobility and CC as GWFs and I remember LS saying they restrict themselves to 2 GWFs in their premade.
This makes no sense. You rarely have the time to build up 5 stacks of mastery and just for your information EF builds it up to. Sow what do you want to tell us don't use CC until you have 5 stacks of AM are you serious? Which GOOD team lets you build up AM? AM does not make us more complicated just cumbersome in PvP. It's a fine mechanic in PvE but pointless in PvP unless every MM would build up a stack just like RoF. As it is getting 5 stacks of MM requires you to be ignored or at a position where the enemy cannot reach you, good luck with that.
In fact being the supposedly best CC class I'd expect us to have countermoves against immunities beside running around like headless chickens and all our CC should have at least base duration similar to other classes without AM and with AM we should have CC superiority because we are the CONTROL wizards. Not 3 shotty punching bags which can be annoying and occasional lethal with Ice Knife thats not what I rolled this class for.
I'm so tired of your *****ing it's not even funny. I'm done with this thread after this reply.
Nothing says you have to use "my" build which isn't even mine. My build works for MY gameplay. Apparently, you chose a build that doesn't work for you. If you dumped all 31 points into Renegade, you should respec.
Not enough time to build AM stacks? You're joking right? 2 cycles of MM followed by 2 RoE. Oh look, that's 4 stacks. You don't want RoE on tab? Oh my, that's 3 stacks you just built almost instantaneously.
Why would I want to fight a GF 1v1 when that's where they shine best? From that statement alone, you seem like the person who complains about getting 3v1'd in a team setting environment.
Then disengage and regroup like I said. You're not going to win every encounter. The more and more you post, it seems like you run into an encounter, expect to win 100% of the time, and never disengage.
Little benefit? They offer some of the best support when your team pays attention. I'll take a good CW or another GWF as backup over any other class in PvP just for the rotation of CC's. Even if they don't pay attention, you have the ability kite and delay until back up arrives and in some cases, win 1v1's.
I didn't even bother to mention Ice Storm which has and airborne effect AND prone effect. IMO, it has some of the best utility for point defending. Especially when paired with Icy Terrain or a Tabbed Chill Strike.
The fact is, AGAIN, there is more than enough CC available for the CW and the duration is fine. Your class mechanics require to play a certain way, which you obviously do not like.
I hope in time, you find a build and power setup that suits your gamestlye. Have a nice day.
I don't use RoE just we are clear about it and I will never use it. Also 2 rounds of MM pluse RoF takes about 5-6 seconds which is quite long in PvP terms.
Unlike you it seems I play against smart players more often which force me to kite most of the game especially TRs preventing me from building AM in a meaningful way. Heck quite often I kite from 1-3 all over the map trying lure the little kill horny idiots away from the nodes. Does not change the fact that I tickle them to death while all 3 melee classes 2-4 shot me once they are around 10k GS with decent enchantments.
I actually have no problem with my build I do fine though not outstanding, but then again I have seen NO CW who does outstanding in PvP, same goes for DC.
What are you talking about "Ice Storm"? There is no such skill as "Ice Storm". From your description you seem to mean "Mealstrom of Chaos" which is the only Daily I know about doing this and is in fact a Daily I use and I am fairly sure I am pretty alone with it.
The more I read of your <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> I must asume you play against terribads and yes I "retreat" all the time because guess what we are relatively easy kills for TRs, we struggle against GWFs and GFs, other CWs are about equal give or take depending on skills and feats, same goes for DCs, some are seem nigh unkillable, some seem to get eaten alive.
Retreating and kiting is the only way to not constantly be in double digit death count because we have very poor passive and active defences and our CC is mediocre.
Ok, so against good/strong classes we have to run away and get help. For domination, not contesting or defending points because we have to get help is basically hurting the team. Doesn't seem like a real solution.
Again valiantly running away in domination hurts the team and lessens the chance you win. What happens if you end up in a team with 1 TR, 2 DC and 2 CWs? TRs gonna have sore back from carrying old the dead weight it seems.
You just spent the past paragraphs saying you have to run away versus good GWFs/GFs/TRs, doesn't seem that dropping encounters properly works for you because you just run away 80% of the time.
So if I'm the only one at the cap and a GWF/TR/GF approaches, I should just run away, giving him the cap, and go cry to my team for backup? Even if they are all busy at the other cap points? Sounds more like I should just not PVP meaningfully with my CW and just stick to my TR and GWF from what you are saying.
I don't burn 3 at once against a GWF and I still get burned really quickly since their at-wills ACTUALLY DO DECENT DAMAGE. So either I retreat while eating damage while waiting for them to cast their encounters and use my dodge, or I get caught by their stun (which rubberbands us CWs even with a dodge, especially if they spec for the additional stun on last hit) or their prone skill. Them using crescendo (daily) instantly takes off 50-80% hp while stunning us for the entire duration (and us not having any counter like unstoppable/ItC to escape) means we will almost always get caught in it.
And then they pop ItC while you attempt to engage them just because they were "not stealthed", then proceed to kill you in that 5 seconds of CC immunity PLUS 75% damage reduction from their deflect (or no damage at all if popped from stealth). Yea, brilliant idea.
Stop assuming that everyone runs YOUR SPEC. Unless, of course, you are suggesting that your build is the only viable PVP spec in the game and that 95% of PVP CWs are doing it wrong. And stop including Ice Knife in the combo like its an encounter. It is not. I find the GWF daily MUCH easier to score hits on compared to Ice Knife simply because it DOESN'T make a freaking loud noise to warn my target that it is coming. Don't even get me started on how it wastes the AP bar when the target rolls out of LoS.
Nice sideeffect I can dodge Leashig Blade better on my CW because I got a better feel for the class now.
exactly, and EF is 2 sec, hence there is no window if ur using it instant, i have used it over 1000 times, how many have you? try it urself if u still dont believe me, only halflings have this window, since EF is 1 or 1,5 sec on them
I ROFL'd so hard at that! :rolleyes:
If you break down everything for PVP domination it pretty much a 1 on 1 fight. 5v5 1v1 I see no reason as to why we should run away.. I can even manage taking 2 people down even on a control wizard but the other players are complete novices and don't know how to play. As aklqop1 said run to your team mates loose the fight? In some respect that is correct but in others you still loose even though you kill more of the enemy team. At the current set up you have people who don't pay attention to nodes and those that rush over with 3 people going to that node.. how would it be if 1 enemy was going to your base node and 1, just 1, from your team went and killed him? Pretty effient I'd say but according to shultzy here its better to run away.. ever see a CW run away before? It's d*** near impossible. You have no heals, GWF can sprint to you TR can port to you, other CW and DC are ranged.. in fact the only class you can really escape is a GF yet most of the time they lock ya down with prone attacks they even have a port skill too.. No Shultzy no running away almost never works and if you can't even attempt to 1v1 I think simply you should play a game more your speed.. maybe farmville.
It was also mentioned that cool downs should be decreased.. I see no point in reducing cool downs in a class that can max out intelligence especially since pvp gear gives you cool down on the tabbed slot. Casting time reduced seems nice for chill strike and it would be nice if steal time and Shard didn't glitch so much. If you time things right even with EF being nulled thanks to unstoppable if you have enough recovery it wont matter. but a duration that's like tripping someone is not effective especially since other classes can prone lock you or one shot you with out the need to build AM to increase their duration.
AND AGAIN PVE duration's for these skills are not the same for pvp. All other classes have the same exact same CC duration both in and out of PVP with the exception of control wizards! So, I ask the moderators and devs viewing this: why is that?
3 teleports.
Even TRs only have 2 & most won't take deft strike (the teleport strike) since it's quite weak.
Too many CWs think that melee classes literally have to be in melee range before they start fighting back.
& too many don't know how to teleport properly.
Teleporting TOWARDS the melee enemy is usually a bad idea. (Even teleporting sideways is typically bad since they'll usually be attempting to close the distance.)
GF actually has a pretty big circle of death where they can initiate their charge + prone combo. They'll simply turtle their way towards you slowly until they can jump at your face. Unless you has lightning quick reflexes, good luck avoiding it.
GWF's abilities tend to have a few meters in length.
TR's can dodge roll into you & most of their abilities are instant cast. (curiously their dazes have a delay to them.)
Ice Knife: 50k+ damage
Singularity: ~4 seconds pull + ~2 seconds of prone
Yes, yes you are a control wizard.
No, we are DEAD wizard.
And why? because rogues killed us. PvP as CW is horrible experience.
Normally I would not say anything about player skills, but this is simply a Learn to Play issue.
CWs are fine in PvP. Even with broken feats we are still extremely competitive.
I have more fun PvPing on my CW than I do with any other class, purely because of the damage output.
PvP as a CW at 60 is a fast learning curve from the lower Tiers. You cannot just stand still and nuke your way to victory.
Get proper positioning and situational awareness and you will do much better.
19.9k PvP Control Wizard
<Complaints Department>
To make CW on pair with other classes u dont need to buff CW u just need to turn down the dmg of cloud of steel and maybe give ur dodge the ablity to reduce incoming dmg for x seconds after use or make us immun to incoming dmg for 1 sec.
And for the love of god reduce the castime of chillstrike and entangle!
Queen Mouz - Lemonade Stand
ray of frost 25% additional chill stack and chill strike 3 stack... makes it fast and easier for you to freeze them again and again
I know renegade/thau elitist will disagree to me, but i can provide facts and calculations.
i agree with everything this gentleman states. i also main a lvl 60 CW although i admit i am most likely under geared compared to the gentleman above. i also only use the same skills he listed because they are the only ones that are effective in pvp. i would very much like to be able to use the other skills but their worthless.