PvP is an integral part of MMOs, which is why Neverwinter includes PvP.
But the classes are unlikely to ever be balanced around direct PvP combat.
The primary goal of Neverwinter PvP is Domination. Classes don't necessarily have to be balanced directly to Dominate.
I started my trek into MMOs with Star Wars Galaxies a couple months before the combat upgrade. For you that have played, there were two dozen professions via skill trees. Then, the NGE hit, which dumbed it down to 5 "iconic and Star-warsy" professions. This was due in part to balancing issues because of a vast number of issues with so many classes. In regards to PvP, it was open-world and you flagged yourself by talking to an NPC. You stayed at an overt status until you spoke with the NPC again. Also, there were guild wars and much later PvP battlegrounds, where you crossed into a zone to be PvP-enabled.
I was (and still am) an avid PvPer. In fact, I won't step into an MMO unless there is some PvP available. What I see developers doing is put into a position where balancing is due mainly to PvP. After all, PvE mobs really don't care about balancing, but real people do and scream when a class is deemed overpowered. Am I saying that PvP should be eliminated from NW? No, but as more classes are added, there will be balancing issues until the servers shut down. That is just the name of the game in the MMO industry and the PvP community in NW will continue to be part of the process. Still, I think there needs to be some changes how PvP is done in NW, but at the same time not to alienate the PvE community. Yet, you can't please all of the people, all of the time...
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nick1sternMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 330Bounty Hunter
edited July 2013
You PVPers are funny at least the hardcore ones with Rose tinted glasses on.
You assume anyone speaking out against PvP in certian circumstances do not never have will never PvP well you are wrong any do casual PvP. Does that make it essential in a MMO no it does not. Does that mean it belongs in every MMO no t does not.
It certianly does not belong in a D&D based game as D&D classes were never meant to be balanced in anyway.
Yet PvPers cry about balance nerf him buff me so I can win in PvP thats all many of you want.
Well so sorry PvP is 10 maybe 20% of the player base maybe 10% of the content.
no intelligent dev game company will balance purely for PvP vs PVE.
You started your agrument claiming mass swings growth in PvP so **** straight stats are important.
You show nothing that supports you then praise an article that says the exact opposit.
Yeah take of the rose timnted glasses stop thinking PvP is the be all end all.
Personally, in the last six years of my gaming and playing MMOs I have not known a single player that didn't PVP, that didn't want PVP in their MMO
And my experience is almost the exact opposite.
I came to MMORPGs when I burned out on real-PvP - First Person Shooter, where it is just skill.
I'd been doing that so long that I was actually seeing server transcript .txt files in my sleep; I actually woke up once and found 2 anomalies on a very long server log that the night before I had examined for ages and found nothing - I was actually recalling real server-logs in my sleep! I was helping out with several community based anti-cheat groups and was manually vetting anything up to 10,000 screenshots and 15MB of server .txt logs a day - and still trying to play the game.
Many of the people I play MMORPGs with also did their PvP thing in a similar setting.
I tried MMORPG PvP when I first moved to the genre. I found three things to be universal about MMORPG PvP: 1) No game that tries to balance PvP is made better because of it - MMORPGs are far too diverse in their skills base, class synergy (when working together) and too heavily gear dependent to allow anything close to resembling real "balance", 2) MMORPG PvP is a pale, very pale, parody of real PvP (too much is dependent on cookie-cutter builds, BIS gear races, and who has the keyboard that can handle the most macros) it generally isn't about real "skill" except skill at number crunching, 3) the PvP playerbase will complain so much, so often and so loudly that an external observer would be forgiven for that they make up 90% of the player-base when in reality they make up far less.
Of the people I know who play MMORPGs 2 take PvP genuinely seriously, and maybe another 4 or 5 dabble while waiting for new PvE content, and that is out of around 80 or so people.
The one game that is an exception to that is LOTRO - and LOTRO succeeds at PvP (well PvMP actually) where so many others fail by giving PvE synergy and function priority, and then attaching PvP as an almost entirely independent add-on.
So I am far from convinced that "most players want PvP", and I am not at all convinced that PvP is an essential component of a successful MMORPG.
Now, from the "company" point of view it may, at first, seem a desirable things - wider target audience etc.
But that doesn't hold in the long-run. The one thing I learned from 6 years of FPS gaming is that hard-core PvPers "move with the times" quicker than any other type of player.
From an MMORPG point of view that is not at all good. PvPers will be the first in to any new release's end-game and they'll be the first to start whining and quitting because of "lack of new content" leading to boredom.
As soon as a new title comes on the market that has better graphics, better gameplay, better stats tracking (anything they think will give them that extra bragging rights or an extra edge somehow) the PvPers will be off like a shot.
Now, MMORPGs used to have a mechanism to combat this itinerant player-base's wander-lust. Investment. Not time, or effort, but money. It was called a "Monthly Subscription".
F2P MMOs don't have that investment hook. So when a new title comes along they have even less chance of retaining that part of the playerbase that is always looking for something new.
PvE players tend to have less of that wander-lust, many of them will play a title simply because of the IP it is linked to. LOTRO being the major example here, LOTRO fans have put up with a lot of bad releases (in terms of bugs) and some very, very questionable game-direction decisions in order to play a game connected to Tolkien's LOTR. I doubt Turbine would have the player-base it does in LOTRO if it were just A N Other fantasy setting.
How many PvEers are here simply because this is Forgotten Realms? How many are willing to stick to the game long-term and cut it some slack because of that?
I reiterate my earlier point: dump PvP and this game will almost certainly be around in a few years time if PvE is fixed, because PvE ers are here for the "world" for the setting, not for the PvP Rating. Dump PvE and fix PvP and the game would be dead within two months, because most PvPers aren't here for the setting, they're here to be top of the ratings in a new MMO title. And they'll jump ship in the blink of an eye if a new title hits the shelves.
And lets just mention GG. My guild used to be clamouring for people to get to 60 so they could play "end-game", now "end-game" is forced PvP in GG not one of them is interested in playing and most have gone back to LOTRO, where PvP is 100% totally optional AND separate.
I came to MMORPGs when I burned out on real-PvP - First Person Shooter, where it is just skill.
I'd been doing that so long that I was actually seeing server transcript .txt files in my sleep; I actually woke up once and found 2 anomalies on a very long server log that the night before I had examined for ages and found nothing - I was actually recalling real server-logs in my sleep! I was helping out with several community based anti-cheat groups and was manually vetting anything up to 10,000 screenshots and 15MB of server .txt logs a day - and still trying to play the game.
Many of the people I play MMORPGs with also did their PvP thing in a similar setting.
I tried MMORPG PvP when I first moved to the genre. I found three things to be universal about MMORPG PvP: 1) No game that tries to balance PvP is made better because of it - MMORPGs are far too diverse in their skills base, class synergy (when working together) and too heavily gear dependent to allow anything close to resembling real "balance", 2) MMORPG PvP is a pale, very pale, parody of real PvP (too much is dependent on cookie-cutter builds, BIS gear races, and who has the keyboard that can handle the most macros) it generally isn't about real "skill" except skill at number crunching, 3) the PvP playerbase will complain so much, so often and so loudly that an external observer would be forgiven for that they make up 90% of the player-base when in reality they make up far less.
Of the people I know who play MMORPGs 2 take PvP genuinely seriously, and maybe another 4 or 5 dabble while waiting for new PvE content, and that is out of around 80 or so people.
The one game that is an exception to that is LOTRO - and LOTRO succeeds at PvP (well PvMP actually) where so many others fail by giving PvE synergy and function priority, and then attaching PvP as an almost entirely independent add-on.
So I am far from convinced that "most players want PvP", and I am not at all convinced that PvP is an essential component of a successful MMORPG.
Now, from the "company" point of view it may, at first, seem a desirable things - wider target audience etc.
But that doesn't hold in the long-run. The one thing I learned from 6 years of FPS gaming is that hard-core PvPers "move with the times" quicker than any other type of player.
From an MMORPG point of view that is not at all good. PvPers will be the first in to any new release's end-game and they'll be the first to start whining and quitting because of "lack of new content" leading to boredom.
As soon as a new title comes on the market that has better graphics, better gameplay, better stats tracking (anything they think will give them that extra bragging rights or an extra edge somehow) the PvPers will be off like a shot.
Now, MMORPGs used to have a mechanism to combat this itinerant player-base's wander-lust. Investment. Not time, or effort, but money. It was called a "Monthly Subscription".
F2P MMOs don't have that investment hook. So when a new title comes along they have even less chance of retaining that part of the playerbase that is always looking for something new.
PvE players tend to have less of that wander-lust, many of them will play a title simply because of the IP it is linked to. LOTRO being the major example here, LOTRO fans have put up with a lot of bad releases (in terms of bugs) and some very, very questionable game-direction decisions in order to play a game connected to Tolkien's LOTR. I doubt Turbine would have the player-base it does in LOTRO if it were just A N Other fantasy setting.
How many PvEers are here simply because this is Forgotten Realms? How many are willing to stick to the game long-term and cut it some slack because of that?
I reiterate my earlier point: dump PvP and this game will almost certainly be around in a few years time if PvE is fixed, because PvE ers are here for the "world" for the setting, not for the PvP Rating. Dump PvE and fix PvP and the game would be dead within two months, because most PvPers aren't here for the setting, they're here to be top of the ratings in a new MMO title. And they'll jump ship in the blink of an eye if a new title hits the shelves.
And lets just mention GG. My guild used to be clamouring for people to get to 60 so they could play "end-game", now "end-game" is forced PvP in GG not one of them is interested in playing and most have gone back to LOTRO, where PvP is 100% totally optional AND separate.
All The Best
Awesome read, and I think anyone who's made the rounds in the MMO communites can't argue this. Some will try, some will disagree, but everyone knows it's all true. Every last world.
Now, MMORPGs used to have a mechanism to combat this itinerant player-base's wander-lust. Investment. Not time, or effort, but money. It was called a "Monthly Subscription".
How many PvEers are here simply because this is Forgotten Realms? How many are willing to stick to the game long-term and cut it some slack because of that?
And my mileage varies yet again, I used to loathe pvp, especially on f2p games, but grew to like it on Neverwinter....somewhat. I came here for D&D (in whatever form it is) and see pvp a bit like that too, a gladiator's arena. I think the game has great potential, and I want it to succeed, yet unfortunately I am starting to see quite a few signs they will not be living up to it.
I think the F2P model just won't allow for any real long-term and development, but that's exactly what I think Neverwinter needs. I fear however it will much more be a casual-with-friends-or-complete-strangers-game for pve, And have an elitist skill/gear pvp player base, quite happily being segregated from the 'polite crowd'.
I don't think the game is dying, but i think it's in a turnover phase. My guild always has the same amount of players online and listed in the guild. the only difference i see is the really experienced players are taking a break or leaving for another game because they've done all the content they can stomach. Now I'm seeing lot's of fresh lvl 60's who are just trying to make their way.
I kind of don't mind teaching newer players the ropes and seeing their excitement when they beat something they couldn't before and reach a new goal.
I do miss the experienced players always being online to do CN runs though.
But what else is there.... you do endless reruns of the same dungeons in order to get loot for pvp or more of the same dungeons but with a thousand more adds. There is nothing else.
I don't do the dungeons to get loot for PvP. I don't play PvP. I have yet to do all of the dungeons, so no they are not endless runs of them for me yet. I would suppose if I enjoyed speed runs I would have all of the dungeons complete by now, but I absolutely dislike speed runs. I have gotten suckered into a few speed runs with PUGs and always come away with rushed and incomplete feeling. Besides there are other things to do, there are Foundry quests, and the professions.
Name one MMORPG that has in any way been improved by the presence of PvP. Just one, I bet you can't.
PvP belongs with FPS games.
PvP breaks MMORPGs.
From BC onwards WoW was made worse and worse by Devs attempting to balance PvP (10% of game content) with PvE (90% of game content).
Every MMO I have played has been made worse by the interminable whining from PvPer about "balance" and the never-ending and futile attempts by Devs to quell that constant whining.
MMORPG developers need to learn one simple fact: balancing PvP gimps PvE, and PvE is 90% of the content and 80% of the playerbase.
So unless the game is designed from the roots up with PvP as its main focus the holy-grail of PvP balance and PvE synergy and functionality (that also has to take in to account scripted special skills for bosses ets that will never appear in PvP) is unattainable.
And no one to my knowledge has ever tried that, because they know PvP is only 10% of the "draw" (even if the PvP playerbase does seem to the source for 90% of the whines).
So, what is an MMORPG developer going to do?
Are they going to gimp 90% of game content and 80% of the playerbase just to appease 20% of the playerbase who engage in 10% of the content?
Are they?
Really?
No, of course they are not.
And nor should they.
The long-haul players of this game are not, and were never going to be, the PvPers.
Long-term this game will die if PvE isn't fixed, if "world content" stagnates, and if there isn't more diversity of classes and class specialisation.
But I would bet my last $ that this game could jettison PvP and still be here in 2 years time IF they fix PvE.
Now, how long would it last if they jettisoned PvE and fixed just PvP? One month? Two?
So, do you really, honestly think PvP is "crucial to the success of this game"?
Really?
All The Best
Shadowbane, Everquest, Darkfall, Dark Age of Camelot, ArcheAge...
Balancing is just that balancing, i fail to see how content gets "gimped" when pve/pvp gets balanced.
Not all MMOs are PvE centric. Your numbers as far as ratios for pve/pvp players is also very 2001.
Fixing PvP does not take away from fixing PvE. If you want a fully pve game I don't think you should be playing MMOs. I can't honestly think of a single MMO that doesn't have PvP in some form or another, and if you can think of such a game, i think you might want to play that more.
Personally, in the last six years of my gaming and playing MMOs I have not known a single player that didn't PVP, that didn't want PVP in their MMO.
If you say no, and that you're merely playing the PVE aspect of the game for the adventure, what adventure is there after the first run through a dungeon?
.
I do not PvP, and if the PvP disappeared from Neverwinter it wouldn't bother me. I am not anti-PvP, I just have absolutely no interest in it. The only reason I ever entered the Trade of Blades was to get that stupid box about Domination to disappear from my level-up screen. So now you know one.
I do run the dungeons for the adventure and for entertainment, not just for the loot at the end. A dungeon can have adventure and be entertaining a second or third time, especially if you are going with the right group of people. I have never really paid attention to the stat boxes at the end, as I don't play this for the competition, but for enjoyment. If I want competition I will go the park and play a game of soccer.
I came to MMORPGs when I burned out on real-PvP - First Person Shooter, where it is just skill.
I'd been doing that so long that I was actually seeing server transcript .txt files in my sleep; I actually woke up once and found 2 anomalies on a very long server log that the night before I had examined for ages and found nothing - I was actually recalling real server-logs in my sleep! I was helping out with several community based anti-cheat groups and was manually vetting anything up to 10,000 screenshots and 15MB of server .txt logs a day - and still trying to play the game.
Many of the people I play MMORPGs with also did their PvP thing in a similar setting.
I tried MMORPG PvP when I first moved to the genre. I found three things to be universal about MMORPG PvP: 1) No game that tries to balance PvP is made better because of it - MMORPGs are far too diverse in their skills base, class synergy (when working together) and too heavily gear dependent to allow anything close to resembling real "balance", 2) MMORPG PvP is a pale, very pale, parody of real PvP (too much is dependent on cookie-cutter builds, BIS gear races, and who has the keyboard that can handle the most macros) it generally isn't about real "skill" except skill at number crunching, 3) the PvP playerbase will complain so much, so often and so loudly that an external observer would be forgiven for that they make up 90% of the player-base when in reality they make up far less.
Of the people I know who play MMORPGs 2 take PvP genuinely seriously, and maybe another 4 or 5 dabble while waiting for new PvE content, and that is out of around 80 or so people.
The one game that is an exception to that is LOTRO - and LOTRO succeeds at PvP (well PvMP actually) where so many others fail by giving PvE synergy and function priority, and then attaching PvP as an almost entirely independent add-on.
So I am far from convinced that "most players want PvP", and I am not at all convinced that PvP is an essential component of a successful MMORPG.
Now, from the "company" point of view it may, at first, seem a desirable things - wider target audience etc.
But that doesn't hold in the long-run. The one thing I learned from 6 years of FPS gaming is that hard-core PvPers "move with the times" quicker than any other type of player.
From an MMORPG point of view that is not at all good. PvPers will be the first in to any new release's end-game and they'll be the first to start whining and quitting because of "lack of new content" leading to boredom.
As soon as a new title comes on the market that has better graphics, better gameplay, better stats tracking (anything they think will give them that extra bragging rights or an extra edge somehow) the PvPers will be off like a shot.
Now, MMORPGs used to have a mechanism to combat this itinerant player-base's wander-lust. Investment. Not time, or effort, but money. It was called a "Monthly Subscription".
F2P MMOs don't have that investment hook. So when a new title comes along they have even less chance of retaining that part of the playerbase that is always looking for something new.
PvE players tend to have less of that wander-lust, many of them will play a title simply because of the IP it is linked to. LOTRO being the major example here, LOTRO fans have put up with a lot of bad releases (in terms of bugs) and some very, very questionable game-direction decisions in order to play a game connected to Tolkien's LOTR. I doubt Turbine would have the player-base it does in LOTRO if it were just A N Other fantasy setting.
How many PvEers are here simply because this is Forgotten Realms? How many are willing to stick to the game long-term and cut it some slack because of that?
I reiterate my earlier point: dump PvP and this game will almost certainly be around in a few years time if PvE is fixed, because PvE ers are here for the "world" for the setting, not for the PvP Rating. Dump PvE and fix PvP and the game would be dead within two months, because most PvPers aren't here for the setting, they're here to be top of the ratings in a new MMO title. And they'll jump ship in the blink of an eye if a new title hits the shelves.
And lets just mention GG. My guild used to be clamouring for people to get to 60 so they could play "end-game", now "end-game" is forced PvP in GG not one of them is interested in playing and most have gone back to LOTRO, where PvP is 100% totally optional AND separate.
All The Best
One of the most intelligent posts I have read on these forums in quite some time.
GG is a big disapointment. I thought we where getting an actual raid. The first part is so boring and the pvp is a nonstop zergor if you dont like pvp you can do more boring gathering. The third part is the most disapointing, just another 5man speed run with another add fest. I dont know if NW is dying but it defanitely needs some medical attention.
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chidy1776Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited July 2013
I hate even responding to threads like this as it gives them more credit then they should ever get. I just wanted to say how odd it is though that EVERY mmo ive played in the last 4 years is, acording to thier respective official forums, dead and or dying. Even some games with millions of active subs are "dying"? Why is everyone so worried about every game dying when theyre still new most of the time with a healthy player base. Its like everytime a game has some issue of varied importance its "dying". If every post about a game dying was instead a constructive discussion and feedback thread we would probably get a lot more of what we as players want to see, and a lot better game in the end.
TLDR why is every game dying?
Paul 60 guardian fighter on mindflayer.
Rising Star, fun friendly, community focused guild on mindflayer. We strive to help each other and enjoy the game together. Talk to me for info, or feel free to check and join our community at risingstarneverwinter.enjin.com
One of the most intelligent posts I have read on these forums in quite some time.
Bravo
Agreed.
That post says it well. PvP has it's own market, PvE does two. Mixing them is a designer's nightmare because in fixing one, you break the other.
Neverwinter is most definitely a PvE centric game and should focus on that route. I know that'll make PvPers upset and don't get me wrong; I do enjoy PvP. it's just that if I want PvP, I'd play a game that is built for it. It literally blew my mind when Gauntlgrym had a PvP aspect added to it...it does not belong. a PvE team competition, sure, but then sending the teams after each other just left me scratching my head. Granted I haven't experienced Gauntlgrym but I have played a similar type dungeon in another game to know that this will frustrate PvE players (and that game was PvP centric, so I supported it, because I loved killing people in it, hehe).
I love Neverwinter's combat system and I do hope in the future they make a PvP centric version of that system (Heck, make it in the same setting and Call it Luskan, hehe. 4e Luskan literally SCREAMS PvP and all that'd have to be done is a open city map of Luskan and give it it's own server) or give skills a separate PvP ruleset to allow for balancing to be done where it is needed and not cause imbalance on the other end.
Otherwise the teeter-totter of imbalance will continue.
Shadowbane, Everquest, Darkfall, Dark Age of Camelot, ArcheAge...
Balancing is just that balancing, i fail to see how content gets "gimped" when pve/pvp gets balanced.
Not all MMOs are PvE centric. Your numbers as far as ratios for pve/pvp players is also very 2001.
Fixing PvP does not take away from fixing PvE. If you want a fully pve game I don't think you should be playing MMOs. I can't honestly think of a single MMO that doesn't have PvP in some form or another, and if you can think of such a game, i think you might want to play that more.
true, some MMORPG does pump up using PvP like RF online. but dont forget, others "killed" by PvP balancing. thats why most MMO, mostly with action base gameplay, choose to make different set of skill power on PvE and PvP and this is what I call balancing, except when you get in open PvP area. while in here, they try to "merge" it. PvP can only get gears by buy AH if they wouldnt want to enter dungeons and PvE must do PvP in GG. well, for me, let just see where the game heading
You guys must be high if you think class balancing is anywhere near the top of the list of things to fix in this game in order to prolong its success...the classes are surprisingly balanced actually (really, they are). Love or hate PvP, there is absolutely no incentive to continue playing after you've run all the T2 dungeons (which can easily be done in 1 day btw) and collected and/or purchased the best gear for your class. The most valuable items in the game are enchantments, period. While its great to run end game dungeons with ease once you have gotten said enchants, running the same tired dungeons over and over for gear that you don't need isn't really productive. Dominance in PvP with top tier enchants that you have saved up for by raiding for days on end IS the endgame currently...
So predictable everyday we get the exact same post or a close variation.
It's like a certain element is huddled in a corner rubbing their hands together and praying for doom.
Pathetic really.
Well, like flies. Theres a faction on every <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>. Just some flies don't care for the <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> they are being handed. Others woof it down heartily- thats obvious.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Still trying to find a reference to AD in my AD&D Manuals.
I really can't, for the life of me, figure out why they chose to "go live" when they did. No real new content, no real new upgrades to gear for the most part. No new races or classes and no new skill paths. Everyone agrees that the "Beta" was the real launch, but at least when it was still in "Beta" they technically had an excuse for all the problems. Besides not having new content, several major aspects of the game are at an all time low right now. Basically, they had a beta launch, got everyone's feedback about how many things were broken with the game, and then launched without fixing most of them.
Like I said previously, I have really enjoyed a lot of this game and want it to succeed. But Launching in this manner almost seems like a last ditch effort to profit off a game that the developers don't have a ton of interest in prolonging. I guess when the "expansion" comes in August we will know more, but if it is meh...I think the writing is on the wall.
I really can't, for the life of me, figure out why they chose to "go live" when they did. No real new content, no real new upgrades to gear for the most part. No new races or classes and no new skill paths. Everyone agrees that the "Beta" was the real launch, but at least when it was still in "Beta" they technically had an excuse for all the problems. Besides not having new content, several major aspects of the game are at an all time low right now. Basically, they had a beta launch, got everyone's feedback about how many things were broken with the game, and then launched without fixing most of them.
100% agree 10 chars zzz z z
z z z z z z z
Like I said previously, I have really enjoyed a lot of this game and want it to succeed. But Launching in this manner almost seems like a last ditch effort to profit off a game that the developers don't have a ton of interest in prolonging. I guess when the "expansion" comes in August we will know more, but if it is meh...I think the writing is on the wall.
Comments
But the classes are unlikely to ever be balanced around direct PvP combat.
The primary goal of Neverwinter PvP is Domination. Classes don't necessarily have to be balanced directly to Dominate.
Same thing can be said about "you the pve'er" though, as you obviously ignore the fact that pvp is in many other MMO's, and definitely in this one.
It's all just a them-vs-us, in this case pvp vs pve.... and you know what, when that happens everyone loses.
I started my trek into MMOs with Star Wars Galaxies a couple months before the combat upgrade. For you that have played, there were two dozen professions via skill trees. Then, the NGE hit, which dumbed it down to 5 "iconic and Star-warsy" professions. This was due in part to balancing issues because of a vast number of issues with so many classes. In regards to PvP, it was open-world and you flagged yourself by talking to an NPC. You stayed at an overt status until you spoke with the NPC again. Also, there were guild wars and much later PvP battlegrounds, where you crossed into a zone to be PvP-enabled.
I was (and still am) an avid PvPer. In fact, I won't step into an MMO unless there is some PvP available. What I see developers doing is put into a position where balancing is due mainly to PvP. After all, PvE mobs really don't care about balancing, but real people do and scream when a class is deemed overpowered. Am I saying that PvP should be eliminated from NW? No, but as more classes are added, there will be balancing issues until the servers shut down. That is just the name of the game in the MMO industry and the PvP community in NW will continue to be part of the process. Still, I think there needs to be some changes how PvP is done in NW, but at the same time not to alienate the PvE community. Yet, you can't please all of the people, all of the time...
You assume anyone speaking out against PvP in certian circumstances do not never have will never PvP well you are wrong any do casual PvP. Does that make it essential in a MMO no it does not. Does that mean it belongs in every MMO no t does not.
It certianly does not belong in a D&D based game as D&D classes were never meant to be balanced in anyway.
Yet PvPers cry about balance nerf him buff me so I can win in PvP thats all many of you want.
Well so sorry PvP is 10 maybe 20% of the player base maybe 10% of the content.
no intelligent dev game company will balance purely for PvP vs PVE.
You started your agrument claiming mass swings growth in PvP so **** straight stats are important.
You show nothing that supports you then praise an article that says the exact opposit.
Yeah take of the rose timnted glasses stop thinking PvP is the be all end all.
Want to fix PvP eliminate it.
And my experience is almost the exact opposite.
I came to MMORPGs when I burned out on real-PvP - First Person Shooter, where it is just skill.
I'd been doing that so long that I was actually seeing server transcript .txt files in my sleep; I actually woke up once and found 2 anomalies on a very long server log that the night before I had examined for ages and found nothing - I was actually recalling real server-logs in my sleep! I was helping out with several community based anti-cheat groups and was manually vetting anything up to 10,000 screenshots and 15MB of server .txt logs a day - and still trying to play the game.
Many of the people I play MMORPGs with also did their PvP thing in a similar setting.
I tried MMORPG PvP when I first moved to the genre. I found three things to be universal about MMORPG PvP: 1) No game that tries to balance PvP is made better because of it - MMORPGs are far too diverse in their skills base, class synergy (when working together) and too heavily gear dependent to allow anything close to resembling real "balance", 2) MMORPG PvP is a pale, very pale, parody of real PvP (too much is dependent on cookie-cutter builds, BIS gear races, and who has the keyboard that can handle the most macros) it generally isn't about real "skill" except skill at number crunching, 3) the PvP playerbase will complain so much, so often and so loudly that an external observer would be forgiven for that they make up 90% of the player-base when in reality they make up far less.
Of the people I know who play MMORPGs 2 take PvP genuinely seriously, and maybe another 4 or 5 dabble while waiting for new PvE content, and that is out of around 80 or so people.
The one game that is an exception to that is LOTRO - and LOTRO succeeds at PvP (well PvMP actually) where so many others fail by giving PvE synergy and function priority, and then attaching PvP as an almost entirely independent add-on.
So I am far from convinced that "most players want PvP", and I am not at all convinced that PvP is an essential component of a successful MMORPG.
Now, from the "company" point of view it may, at first, seem a desirable things - wider target audience etc.
But that doesn't hold in the long-run. The one thing I learned from 6 years of FPS gaming is that hard-core PvPers "move with the times" quicker than any other type of player.
From an MMORPG point of view that is not at all good. PvPers will be the first in to any new release's end-game and they'll be the first to start whining and quitting because of "lack of new content" leading to boredom.
As soon as a new title comes on the market that has better graphics, better gameplay, better stats tracking (anything they think will give them that extra bragging rights or an extra edge somehow) the PvPers will be off like a shot.
Now, MMORPGs used to have a mechanism to combat this itinerant player-base's wander-lust. Investment. Not time, or effort, but money. It was called a "Monthly Subscription".
F2P MMOs don't have that investment hook. So when a new title comes along they have even less chance of retaining that part of the playerbase that is always looking for something new.
PvE players tend to have less of that wander-lust, many of them will play a title simply because of the IP it is linked to. LOTRO being the major example here, LOTRO fans have put up with a lot of bad releases (in terms of bugs) and some very, very questionable game-direction decisions in order to play a game connected to Tolkien's LOTR. I doubt Turbine would have the player-base it does in LOTRO if it were just A N Other fantasy setting.
How many PvEers are here simply because this is Forgotten Realms? How many are willing to stick to the game long-term and cut it some slack because of that?
I reiterate my earlier point: dump PvP and this game will almost certainly be around in a few years time if PvE is fixed, because PvE ers are here for the "world" for the setting, not for the PvP Rating. Dump PvE and fix PvP and the game would be dead within two months, because most PvPers aren't here for the setting, they're here to be top of the ratings in a new MMO title. And they'll jump ship in the blink of an eye if a new title hits the shelves.
And lets just mention GG. My guild used to be clamouring for people to get to 60 so they could play "end-game", now "end-game" is forced PvP in GG not one of them is interested in playing and most have gone back to LOTRO, where PvP is 100% totally optional AND separate.
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Now that sums up the reality of PvP very well.
Nothing but the truth.
Awesome read, and I think anyone who's made the rounds in the MMO communites can't argue this. Some will try, some will disagree, but everyone knows it's all true. Every last world.
+1
And my mileage varies yet again, I used to loathe pvp, especially on f2p games, but grew to like it on Neverwinter....somewhat. I came here for D&D (in whatever form it is) and see pvp a bit like that too, a gladiator's arena. I think the game has great potential, and I want it to succeed, yet unfortunately I am starting to see quite a few signs they will not be living up to it.
I think the F2P model just won't allow for any real long-term and development, but that's exactly what I think Neverwinter needs. I fear however it will much more be a casual-with-friends-or-complete-strangers-game for pve, And have an elitist skill/gear pvp player base, quite happily being segregated from the 'polite crowd'.
I kind of don't mind teaching newer players the ropes and seeing their excitement when they beat something they couldn't before and reach a new goal.
I do miss the experienced players always being online to do CN runs though.
Shadowbane, Everquest, Darkfall, Dark Age of Camelot, ArcheAge...
Balancing is just that balancing, i fail to see how content gets "gimped" when pve/pvp gets balanced.
Not all MMOs are PvE centric. Your numbers as far as ratios for pve/pvp players is also very 2001.
Fixing PvP does not take away from fixing PvE. If you want a fully pve game I don't think you should be playing MMOs. I can't honestly think of a single MMO that doesn't have PvP in some form or another, and if you can think of such a game, i think you might want to play that more.
I do not PvP, and if the PvP disappeared from Neverwinter it wouldn't bother me. I am not anti-PvP, I just have absolutely no interest in it. The only reason I ever entered the Trade of Blades was to get that stupid box about Domination to disappear from my level-up screen. So now you know one.
I do run the dungeons for the adventure and for entertainment, not just for the loot at the end. A dungeon can have adventure and be entertaining a second or third time, especially if you are going with the right group of people. I have never really paid attention to the stat boxes at the end, as I don't play this for the competition, but for enjoyment. If I want competition I will go the park and play a game of soccer.
One of the most intelligent posts I have read on these forums in quite some time.
Bravo
TLDR why is every game dying?
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Agreed.
That post says it well. PvP has it's own market, PvE does two. Mixing them is a designer's nightmare because in fixing one, you break the other.
Neverwinter is most definitely a PvE centric game and should focus on that route. I know that'll make PvPers upset and don't get me wrong; I do enjoy PvP. it's just that if I want PvP, I'd play a game that is built for it. It literally blew my mind when Gauntlgrym had a PvP aspect added to it...it does not belong. a PvE team competition, sure, but then sending the teams after each other just left me scratching my head. Granted I haven't experienced Gauntlgrym but I have played a similar type dungeon in another game to know that this will frustrate PvE players (and that game was PvP centric, so I supported it, because I loved killing people in it, hehe).
I love Neverwinter's combat system and I do hope in the future they make a PvP centric version of that system (Heck, make it in the same setting and Call it Luskan, hehe. 4e Luskan literally SCREAMS PvP and all that'd have to be done is a open city map of Luskan and give it it's own server) or give skills a separate PvP ruleset to allow for balancing to be done where it is needed and not cause imbalance on the other end.
Otherwise the teeter-totter of imbalance will continue.
true, some MMORPG does pump up using PvP like RF online. but dont forget, others "killed" by PvP balancing. thats why most MMO, mostly with action base gameplay, choose to make different set of skill power on PvE and PvP and this is what I call balancing, except when you get in open PvP area. while in here, they try to "merge" it. PvP can only get gears by buy AH if they wouldnt want to enter dungeons and PvE must do PvP in GG. well, for me, let just see where the game heading
Well, like flies. Theres a faction on every <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>. Just some flies don't care for the <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> they are being handed. Others woof it down heartily- thats obvious.
Like I said previously, I have really enjoyed a lot of this game and want it to succeed. But Launching in this manner almost seems like a last ditch effort to profit off a game that the developers don't have a ton of interest in prolonging. I guess when the "expansion" comes in August we will know more, but if it is meh...I think the writing is on the wall.
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