sh4dowrunn3rMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 17Arc User
edited July 2013
Cleric reaches all soft caps in blue gear so how does full t2 help.
Cleric's defense softcap is reached without trying to and any extra points into that seem to suffer crazy diminishing returns. It's not possible for cleric to improve defense past what Cryptic decided all cleric's should have. It is same with all primary cleric's stats - in end no matter which set people wear they all have nearly identical primary capped stats there is no customization.
You can't move while using at-wills like some people think. They mistake a divine mode at-will which eats all divine power in very short time when used for normal at will - without divine power cleric can't heal for nothing in most cases. The at-will heal is same. They both eats divine power in moments and then don't work till cleric does damage for a while and recharges divine power. (you also don't gain divine power while in divine power mode)
What is divine power ? An extra hoop cleric has to jump threw to cast any meaningful power. Doing damage fills divine power bar and stores 3-4(with feat) charges which can be used to cast improved versions of powers. So cleric "can't" heal without doing damage. (ie: AS cast without charge only offers damage reduction, AS cast with charge also heals) Half the feats cleric takes are so he can get/manage divine power more easily.
I also have CW and TR. CW's shield and teleport make him have really good survivability in pvp in hands of skilled player. TR is just godly... deflection, stealth + dodges and skill for total immunity I can usually contest point alone against multiple enemies for extended periods of time and survive. All cleric has is 2 dodges with really slow stamina recharge plus penalty to self heals when heals are already pretty pathetic without it.
I think cleric is actually balanced as soon as damage in pvp is reduced for everyone(no 1-3 shots) and perma stun removed (short immunity to stun after you been stunned). Otherwise if pvp is gonna be stun fest and 1 hits then healing is useless and DC needs major boosts in other areas.
Respec to DPS if you're low geared, Clerics have extremly high base dmg if you use the right rotation. They are quit tricky to play tho, since they don't have the CC of a CW or the imidate burst of a TR. It's all about stacking up dots and finish of with Channel Divinity. They have the best mobilliy however since they are able to move and fire their At will. The people managing healing clerics in pvp in general have end game gear.
You can't use At-Wills while running, sorry dude, think you've been misinformed. Unless you mean DoT and then run.
And no you shouldn't have to pay ZEN and respecc just to be good in PvP (no other class has to).
In full t2 pvp gear ive met clerics standing there taking my damage as a champ, while healing up himself and his surrounding teammates. You need atleast 2 dps on a decent cleric to get him down. So i have no idea what you are doing wrong
Actually, you're doing it wrong. You should be able to take down a cleric alone, easily. You're not "decent", you're obviously below that if you can't put up more than 1.5k damage per second (which is basically the max amount a cleric can heal himself when desperately trying to survive by burst healing). You do realize Healing Word heals for like 500 health every tick? You can't out-dps that? Pathetic.
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smezzaMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 11Arc User
No true. The moment I hit 60 with my GWF, picked up a decent T1 weapon from the guild bank, I pwnd in PvP, got the highest score everytime. Not the same story if you're a Cleric.
Of course, the GWF is OP in PvP while the Cleric isn't
1.5k damage per second (which is basically the max amount a cleric can heal himself when desperately trying to survive by burst healing)
That is a prety good idea, let's see how much a DC can heal with everything.
Let's use the best case scenario: 4/4 miracle healer for the set bonus and 4,5k power, 2k crit, 2,5k recovery. Add +25% Linked Spirit and other party buffs, cos it's a perfect setup. 6k power 40% crit, 40% recharge speed 2,5k def 27k HP.
I'm assuming AS, SB and HW with moontouched HG and Miracle Healer 4/4. I assume 3 pips and full AP.
SB does around 1,5k heal every 8 secs. 900 Thru Righteousness. 112 Heals per sec. 40% crit chance with 100% severity (normal vorpal) is +20% healing, so 135 HPS. + MH setbonus does 5% Max HP which is 1350 HP/ 8 secs = 169 HPS.
So SB is 305 HPS.
AS tick somwehere around 350 every half secs, so it's 7k heals / 14 secs =500 HPS That is 300 HPS thru righteousness. Can't crit, MH 4/4 adds 1350/14 secs =96 HPS
So AS is 396 HPS.
HW in Divine is 8,5k heal in this setup. Tick for 10 seconds. So it's 850 HPS, or 510 through Righteousness. 40% crit with 100% severity adds +20% so 612 HPS. Add MH 4/4 1350/ 10 secs so 135 HPS.
So HW is 747 HPS.
Meanwhile HG was also running, that is 5% Max HP every 3 secs.
I don't think either crit or Righteousness affects this, so it's 1350/3= 450 HPS
So you blow everything you have and end up doing 1898 HPS. Now because I have the damage floaters turned off due to hating spam let's say I'm 20% off overall. we're still only at 2300 HPS. That's what DCs have against over 20k crits. DCs have to kite perfectly for 10 seconds and use everything in their arsenal to counter 1 single push of a button from an equally geared TR or CW, 2 button pushes from GWF or GF.
Now I get that that is manageable for skilled players, I had my fare share of successful PvPs, but it is nowhere "fine" or "balanced".
And I've been very VERY generous with those numbers. pretty much a best case sceanario for the DC.
I also didn't count you being burst down before you could do anything, neither being perma CC-ed. I simply counted what would happen if you saw something coming your way and applied all you could before you got hit by the 1st spell, and could also avoid a second spell for 10 seconds.
This is why you need soulforged and perfect kiting skills or a teammate with CCs. i get it.
Unless you get the Lashing + Exec crit combo or the 2 encounter + Ice Knife crit combo. Nothing helps against those. Neither does any of that help against the perma CC from GWF or GF, since ragdolls can't cast anything.
So if you did apply everything and the enemy is a GWF or GF, or not-critting TR or CW, you can probably be saved by teammates.
Yeah, I understand when ppl say that with a decent gear*, team and good kiting skills you can get decent results but you're never gonna make me believe this is balanced or intended. I think the intended PvP was the sub-60 PvP where you could wail at each other for tens of seconds, possibly minutes with DCs on both sides and it went until a team finally lined up a CC streak on an enemy player.
But I bet you 1- 2- and 3-shot kills and perma-CCs and perma-Stealths weren't intended. PvP was balanced around blue gear with no enchants, not purple with enchants. That is all the problem there is. Dmg scales better in endgame gear than survivability.
*Although I say decent, the 4/4 MH and Grand or Ancient accessories with Ancient weapons , rank 7 gems and normal Soulforged and Vorpal I counted with in this post is either a hell of a lot of farming or around 5 mill AD currently on Beholder. I think that's pretty much above "decent". I know it could be perfects and rank 10s, compared to those I guess this really is "only decent".
Of course im supposed to heal threw dmg thats what A HEALER IS ...why should your dmg be greater than my heal....the point of heal is to keep ppl alive so if I can't outmatch a player's dmg then forget dungeon bosses. 23k is a slap in the face compared to my 2k heal from bastion of health or another abilities. Do you think this is fair? Besides I am full pvp gear 2 blues and 2 purples adn all 5 rank enchanments so I'm not so poorly dressed for this frack fest. If i suck that's because I didn't spend hundred of dollars just to be "someone" in this game.
Sorry champ, but it's clear from the numbers you've just mentioned that you are doing something horribly wrong with your stats / gearing or build if your BoH is only healing for 2k. I've seen BoH crits heal for over half a life-bar (L60 target so I'm assuming 10k+ heal). My Healing Word ticks in the 1600s on a crit (with procs up - 75% severity and it goes off at least once per three charges) and I'm only sitting on 10.1k GS, which is not hard to get.
I think the issue is that you don't seem to appreciate what Clerics do well and what they don't do well. Clerics don't do sustained healing or "heal through" damage - end of story. It is not how they function and it why healing pots are on such a short cooldown in this game. Clerics can prevent or mitigate damage well through active and passive damage reductions AND buff their allies. I recommend focusing your build and gearing around that aim. Two feats that I believe you can't be without, at the moment, are Linked Spirit and Benefit of Foresight. If you are going to continue using BoH then Warding Shield is also a must.
That said, I think you'd be far better off using Chains of Blazing Light, Forgemaster's Flame or Divine Glow instead of BoH. If you have to heal, use Soothing Light. Chances are you'll only be healing one target at a time against a good team because they'll focus targets. Your aim in these situations isn't to heal through the damage (you won't anyway). Your aim is to break up the focus (Sunburst knockback for example) or increase the time-to-kill (Divine Armour or Astral Shield in combination with your limited heals) so that the target can dodge or someone can CC or peel.
Trying to solo cap or hold objectives as a Cleric died when Astral Shield got nerfed. Don't bother. Leave that to perma-stealth rogues, GFs or Sentinel GWFs. Your role is to help control the middle-ground. Leave the ninja capping to others.
Actually, you're doing it wrong. You should be able to take down a cleric alone, easily. You're not "decent", you're obviously below that if you can't put up more than 1.5k damage per second (which is basically the max amount a cleric can heal himself when desperately trying to survive by burst healing). You do realize Healing Word heals for like 500 health every tick? You can't out-dps that? Pathetic.
You are misinformed sir. My crit healing words to self are usually around 5-7k, and I've hit quite a bit higher then that. When played right the DC class has ridiculous burst heals.
I have no idea what this thread is about, i have all classes at 60 , and no problems at all, in fact, my GWF does less good in PvP then my DC, yes levelling DC was difficult at times, but i would be bored if it wasn't, but as i said, level 60 PvP, no problem what-so-ever.
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iircMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 22Arc User
edited July 2013
Team stands on red **** on the ground and dies = I'm a bad cleric
Can't heal team enough because PvP is a 1-2 hit and/or a knockdown fest = I'm a bad cleric
I get one hit by the enemy because I have **** gear = I'm a bad cleric
I don't have $$ to buy Zen for gear = I'm a bad cleric
I go to forums and whine about how ****ty my DC experience is = I'm a bad cleric
Oh yea kinda funny the so called "healing class" is the one using the most pots in runs.
You are misinformed sir. My crit healing words to self are usually around 5-7k, and I've hit quite a bit higher then that. When played right the DC class has ridiculous burst heals.
That is a prety good idea, let's see how much a DC can heal with everything.
Let's use the best case scenario: 4/4 miracle healer for the set bonus and 4,5k power, 2k crit, 2,5k recovery. Add +25% Linked Spirit and other party buffs, cos it's a perfect setup. 6k power 40% crit, 40% recharge speed 2,5k def 27k HP.
I'm assuming AS, SB and HW with moontouched HG and Miracle Healer 4/4. I assume 3 pips and full AP.
SB does around 1,5k heal every 8 secs. 900 Thru Righteousness. 112 Heals per sec. 40% crit chance with 100% severity (normal vorpal) is +20% healing, so 135 HPS. + MH setbonus does 5% Max HP which is 1350 HP/ 8 secs = 169 HPS.
So SB is 305 HPS.
AS tick somwehere around 350 every half secs, so it's 7k heals / 14 secs =500 HPS That is 300 HPS thru righteousness. Can't crit, MH 4/4 adds 1350/14 secs =96 HPS
So AS is 396 HPS.
HW in Divine is 8,5k heal in this setup. Tick for 10 seconds. So it's 850 HPS, or 510 through Righteousness. 40% crit with 100% severity adds +20% so 612 HPS. Add MH 4/4 1350/ 10 secs so 135 HPS.
So HW is 747 HPS.
Meanwhile HG was also running, that is 5% Max HP every 3 secs.
I don't think either crit or Righteousness affects this, so it's 1350/3= 450 HPS
So you blow everything you have and end up doing 1898 HPS. Now because I have the damage floaters turned off due to hating spam let's say I'm 20% off overall. we're still only at 2300 HPS. That's what DCs have against over 20k crits. DCs have to kite perfectly for 10 seconds and use everything in their arsenal to counter 1 single push of a button from an equally geared TR or CW, 2 button pushes from GWF or GF.
Now I get that that is manageable for skilled players, I had my fare share of successful PvPs, but it is nowhere "fine" or "balanced".
And I've been very VERY generous with those numbers. pretty much a best case sceanario for the DC.
I also didn't count you being burst down before you could do anything, neither being perma CC-ed. I simply counted what would happen if you saw something coming your way and applied all you could before you got hit by the 1st spell, and could also avoid a second spell for 10 seconds.
This is why you need soulforged and perfect kiting skills or a teammate with CCs. i get it.
Unless you get the Lashing + Exec crit combo or the 2 encounter + Ice Knife crit combo. Nothing helps against those. Neither does any of that help against the perma CC from GWF or GF, since ragdolls can't cast anything.
So if you did apply everything and the enemy is a GWF or GF, or not-critting TR or CW, you can probably be saved by teammates.
Yeah, I understand when ppl say that with a decent gear*, team and good kiting skills you can get decent results but you're never gonna make me believe this is balanced or intended. I think the intended PvP was the sub-60 PvP where you could wail at each other for tens of seconds, possibly minutes with DCs on both sides and it went until a team finally lined up a CC streak on an enemy player.
But I bet you 1- 2- and 3-shot kills and perma-CCs and perma-Stealths weren't intended. PvP was balanced around blue gear with no enchants, not purple with enchants. That is all the problem there is. Dmg scales better in endgame gear than survivability.
*Although I say decent, the 4/4 MH and Grand or Ancient accessories with Ancient weapons , rank 7 gems and normal Soulforged and Vorpal I counted with in this post is either a hell of a lot of farming or around 5 mill AD currently on Beholder. I think that's pretty much above "decent". I know it could be perfects and rank 10s, compared to those I guess this really is "only decent".
This is the best Reply ever. And I'll bump it more than once.
You are misinformed sir. My crit healing words to self are usually around 5-7k, and I've hit quite a bit higher then that. When played right the DC class has ridiculous burst heals.
Whats pathetic is you and your attempt to belittle someone when you are out of your element....
Critting with at least one pip of divine power yes, I crit that much on other players, not on my self (I only have 11.3k GS sadly). But you don't always crit and you don't always have 1 pip on the divine power. And we're talking about healing per second. Those 15k+ is gone in one good crit from a TR/GWF/GF/CW, and then you're back on your healing word and astral shield which everyone can outdps.
This is the best Reply ever. And I'll bump it more than once.
even if you are good at kiting it still is very problematic when fighter types can hit you and knock you flat on your back from 10 feet away (wouldn't be so bad but clerics only get two port/slides to a CW's three and you quite often need two back to back to escape a position... ie. using the first while a fighter is at a distance is going to leave you vulnerable to their long stuns unless they charged to where you were)
5-7k per tick? If so, how? If it's the total heal over the ten seconds, then I agree that isn't hard to achieve.
I've hit over 15k+ to self heals with that rotation, thats not counting the other ticks, or regen. With that rotation our righteousness is reduced to -17% with the build that I use. My highest self crit on healing word divine is just shy over 11k
Your survival relies on criticals ? I'm pretty sure your 17k healing will help much vs CW+TR ganking you.
No Foresight and 1500 defense, you probably don't last long while you are under CC.
The problem with cleric is not that the healing is bad, it's more like healing grants no assist. So what's the point ?
People expect clerics to heal in dungeons, but PVP doesn't reward healing.
So you most likely need to be Heal specced for PvE, and DPS Specced for PVP.
They both require very different gear, since you need armor pen for DPS. But no DPS Cleric is viable in a group unless the group is overstuffed or mazochist. Any other dps class will do better.
Clerics need to be rewarded for healing in PvP, or they have no point in doing so.
Clerics need more utility as DPS, or they will have no point in speccing that way.
Cleric is the only class (with protector GFs) that needs a different gear plus a different build for PVP/PVE, because PVP doesn't reward healing and DPS Clerics are obsolete for dungeons.
Your survival relies on criticals ? I'm pretty sure your 17k healing will help much vs CW+TR ganking you.
No Foresight and 1500 defense, you probably don't last long while you are under CC.
The problem with cleric is not that the healing is bad, it's more like healing grants no assist. So what's the point ?
People expect clerics to heal in dungeons, but PVP doesn't reward healing.
So you most likely need to be Heal specced for PvE, and DPS Specced for PVP.
They both require very different gear, since you need armor pen for DPS. But no DPS Cleric is viable in a group unless the group is overstuffed or mazochist. Any other dps class will do better.
Clerics need to be rewarded for healing in PvP, or they have no point in doing so.
Clerics need more utility as DPS, or they will have no point in speccing that way.
Cleric is the only class (with protector GFs) that needs a different gear plus a different build for PVP/PVE, because PVP doesn't reward healing and DPS Clerics are obsolete for dungeons.
I use the same build, same gear, for both pve and pvp and do very well. Against anyone. Try a new build if cant survive against a silly rogue and cw, they are out there.
I agree with the rewards for healing.
Should be with your group capping points anyway though
I have 12.4k GS full MH and I have no prob surviving TR or any class, thank you. And with 1500 defense, of course you will not survive if a TR and a CW decide to team up on you, unless they are noobs. Stop showing off, you're pissing people.
What I pointed is that PVP doesn't reward healing and therefore healing is useless. Heal spec in pvp has then no use. If you wan't to score, you must dps, and the dps spec requires a very different gear, and is obsolete for PVE. That issue must be addressed.
I have 12.4k GS full MH and I have no prob surviving TR or any class, thank you. And with 1500 defense, of course you will not survive if a TR and a CW decide to team up on you, unless they are noobs. Stop showing off, you're pissing people.
What I pointed is that PVP doesn't reward healing and therefore healing is useless. Heal spec in pvp has then no use. If you wan't to score, you must dps, and the dps spec requires a very different gear, and is obsolete for PVE. That issue must be addressed.
Rewarding for heals doesnt matter. If you arent a tool and doing your job correctly, you are keeping your team alive, and capping points. If you are a dps cleric thats silly =/
Rewarding for heals doesnt matter. If you arent a tool and doing your job correctly, you are keeping your team alive, and capping points. If you are a dps cleric thats silly =/
I dont care about your silly GS
It does matter, the devs themselves pointed it when they released the patch that disabled assists for healing.
I am not a DPS cleric, when I PVP, I do it as a healer, supporting my team.
But the truth is that you are not rewarded for doing this, and it must be addressed. Could you imagine being a TR and not being rewarded for killing people ? The devs themselves communicated that they would think about it in a later patch. The question now is "when" ? Hopefully before the game is deserted.
In my opinion, the Virtuous paragon needs a rework to make it more viable and allowing clerics to dps without a different gear. For exemple, a tweak giving 50% of the Recovery as Armor penetration, or something of that kind. That would allow the cleric to both fill the task of moderate healer if needed, or dps. And no it's not OP, considering GFs have a tweak doubling their Power. That's just an idea, though.
Your survival relies on criticals ? I'm pretty sure your 17k healing will help much vs CW+TR ganking you.
No Foresight and 1500 defense, you probably don't last long while you are under CC.
The problem with cleric is not that the healing is bad, it's more like healing grants no assist. So what's the point ?
People expect clerics to heal in dungeons, but PVP doesn't reward healing.
So you most likely need to be Heal specced for PvE, and DPS Specced for PVP.
They both require very different gear, since you need armor pen for DPS. But no DPS Cleric is viable in a group unless the group is overstuffed or mazochist. Any other dps class will do better.
Clerics need to be rewarded for healing in PvP, or they have no point in doing so.
Clerics need more utility as DPS, or they will have no point in speccing that way.
Cleric is the only class (with protector GFs) that needs a different gear plus a different build for PVP/PVE, because PVP doesn't reward healing and DPS Clerics are obsolete for dungeons.
I assure you healing upon self is pretty bad upon clerics... my clerics often have to go looking for and wait for healing potions to respawn cause self-healing can still be a joke.
I assure you healing upon self is pretty bad upon clerics... my clerics often have to go looking for and wait for healing potions to respawn cause self-healing can still be a joke.
yeh.....playing DC in pvp vs decent opponents is a freaking joke
- dodge initial attack, stun, knockback, knockback, down to 30%, get off 1 heal - up to 38% - knockback - dead
or rogue= just dead
its like ur playing uphill but its not uphill its up like mount Everest and at the top u just get to live u don't get to own nyone
its disgusting honestly...
rolling a rogue lol
if u don't buy it.....count how many dcs u see in bgs if you play them often - not many.........why b/c they suck ***
just to be clear...yeh a dc can survive vs a bad player 1v1 but then it takes 35 minutes to do any dmg to them and they can run away at any second of course
did you know that if you move, you don't get hit by melee classes? don't just stand there
stay out of range for ranged classes and in range to heal your team and if you are being attacked by someone at range, put one of your teammate between you and the attacker, which should not be so hard since you should always be with your team and not alone.. i've seen my targets use this tactic, making it hard for me to finish them off, because I hit their teammates instead, it really works
also, nodes give you more points than kills, if your team wins you get rewarded
why this desire to kill everything?
you are a support class, support.
and always remember, a moving target is harder to kill
I don't get why people stand in one place when you daze them, just because you can't use your abilities does not mean you can't move
Really !!!!?? You can MOVE??? Dear sir if it weren't for you I would have been left in the dark for ages. Let's see you dodge a gf sniper shield bash , get stunned wait for stupid animation to get up , by that time ur already DEAD...Cleric is TOO dependent of it's team apart from all classes. If I'm a healer I shoul keep myself alive at least for some time, If I'm a dps cleric I expected to be some CW ...
You are misinformed sir. My crit healing words to self are usually around 5-7k, and I've hit quite a bit higher then that. When played right the DC class has ridiculous burst heals.
Whats pathetic is you and your attempt to belittle someone when you are out of your element....
Serious you brag about everything regarding this class ..Even if what you say is true that you do 15k heal (which I seriously doubt) you still can't stop a 23 k right in the face..
What works for me in PVE d/d doesnt work for me in PVP. For PVP, you have to be very well protected or your screwed. Period. Also I do a lot of channel divinity healing. So for encounters, i usually slot 2 range dps encounters so i can build divinity fast while staying back so I cant get ganked, and for the 3rd encounter i slot something that will heal, typically healing word so i can keep everyone topped off or bastion of health. And for feats you definately want 5 in link spirit Also I agree with the life steal. You need a considerable amount of defense to have a chance. This build works for me, so long as the group protects me and prioritizes killing anyone who starts messing with me
Let's face it !! Nobody cares in pvp to save ur sorry 1 shot a*s
The DC class is fine and i see people (including myself) doing well with the class, in pve or pvp. You are failing at something but don't admit it, and blame the game instead of questioning how you play your character.
Open your eyes already this game has hundreds of bugs..read the damned forums..Or do I have to remind everyone the 99 stacks of rank 5 enchantments in the ah that are still not removed and the exploiters not banned. But I guess that how many of you made AS so easily and get geared as well...
Serious you brag about everything regarding this class ..Even if what you say is true that you do 15k heal (which I seriously doubt) you still can't stop a 23 k right in the face..
I doubt you have ever seen a million dollars. But that doesnt mean it doesnt exist. Whether you believe me or not, it is happening, and I am not the only one doing it.
I am not bragging about anything, I never have. I am doing my diligence as a fellow cleric, to inform you there are builds that clerics are using that make them near impossible to take down. Even being stunned, locked etc. I am not calling you a "bad" cleric, nor anyone else. I encourage you to try out new builds, as it is obvious what you are doing is not working for you. Check out my build, it is working very well for me, and with a little skill you will see a noticeable differance, I guarantee it.
As far as taking a 23k crit to the face. Thats not even remotely a valid point. I've hit people for 32k with Ice Knife on my CW. Does that mean that there class is broken too? I think not, its obvious the dmg from certain class's abilities in this game need to be toned down. It has absolutely nothing to do with the cleric class whatsoever.
I am not bragging about anything, I never have. ...
I think we all see your BS as bragging man. It's getting so old. Your fancy build is just the Faithful/Linked Spirit build with some bonus defence increasing, that's my specc - minus the defensive stuff. In a good premade I'm unstoppable just like you're braggin about being, but that's just because of my team mates. Now imagine yourself in a terrible PUG from queuing alone..
And a Cleric should have the option to go for a DPS build without being bullied and yelled at for not healing, why else would such a feat path be available? Surely, having fun shouldn't be exclusive to the other 4 classes.
I do however agree on one point and that is the fact that perhaps the Cleric doesn't need fixing, but certain abilities of the other classes do. But that would only touch the balance issues, personally, I'm sure a lot of other people would agree, I'm having a hard time having fun playing this class.. I'm not enjoying it as much as I would enjoy the healer class in any other MMO. Hopefully, despite your attempts to protect the clerics current state, they'll make the Cleric more fun to play (perhaps more challenging too, rather than a AS bot).
In the end, from watching all these forum posts and hearing from people in-game, the majority of Clerics does seem to be quite unhappy with their class. Especially the old D&D fans who expected a strong shield and plate wearing Cleric, also people like me who's played healer class for about 10 years in other MMO's hate the lack of protection, flexibility and anti-CC. While I do understand you're on a crusade to prove how much of a magnificent player you are with your guild premades, ancient weapons, special PvP build and what not and how fantastic the Cleric is (we just can't see it), I think you're wasting your energy on a fight you can't win.
If it makes you happy however, I will acknowledge you as the master Cleric, the king of all nerds - nay, the Arch-nerd.
Thing is munkey81 when did you gear up? was this pre AS nerf when it was OP? as we do not have that luxury and atm its just not working and not fun, PvP is a joke, I have 20k of health and get one shot killed by some well geared players nothing in my arsenal can save me from that crit even if I am standing in AS. Dungeons are hard with the current gear I have as shown in a different post.
But I am having trouble finishing T2 dungeons with the current gear if I got, these are the 8300 gs epics even though i have 9.1k and yes this is more than likely the pug as well but i check the GS before we start and every time there above 9.1k upwards.
So if we are unable to gear up using the current gear we have now what? just reroll a TR or CW or GWF? as these all seem to be well over powered compared to our class that just gets face planted within seconds, no CC protection no Diminishing returns on CC and no decent heals as most of HoT unless we use WoM in divine but then I struggle to raise my divine back up if i use on WoM.
Most fights in PvP are just stay at the back trying to heal, you get sneaked up on by rouge in stealth dazed - dead
CW frozen thrown about dead GWF jumped on dead, this is stood in AS.
I am with the OP something needs changing and Cryptic are not even acknowledging there is an issue but why so many complaints if there is no issue?
As the OP said the class is not fun, and like the OP i too have played healer in every MMO i have played for the past 10 years never had an issue reaching end game and playing the content getting geared and playing PvP.
Past few nights i login try and have a game of PvP get annihilated end up with zero or very little points for the time spent.
Try a T2 dungeon group wipes as they cannot do enough damage and the adds end up chasing me around someone leaves, dungeons over back in PE stood there wondered wtf I am even logged in for log out go play Rift or Terra, hell even my tablet over this game atm.
We need a direct heal ( group one preferably) that does not cost divine but has a 10 second cooldown so its no OP, we need some form of defense boost and we need some CC protection, there is no MMO i have played that does not have diminishing returns on CC effects, how can you defend your self or heal when you are constantly stunned and dazed and frozen etc till you are dead?
Look at the powers for example, once you have got AS there really is nothing worth spending your last points in which is odd as in most MMO's the last power you take is your WTF power the one you race to get too, leveling as quick as you can to get this power but not in this game there is nothing beyond AS that i want or need, and ended up just spending the last of my points on nothing really. There is no versatility in the class you can switch maybe 1 or 2 powers but nothing more or you will gimp yourself even more than we already are.
I think we all see your BS as bragging man. It's getting so old. Your fancy build is just the Faithful/Linked Spirit build with some bonus defence increasing, that's my specc - minus the defensive stuff. In a good premade I'm unstoppable just like you're braggin about being, but that's just because of my team mates. Now imagine yourself in a terrible PUG from queuing alone..
And a Cleric should have the option to go for a DPS build without being bullied and yelled at for not healing, why else would such a feat path be available? Surely, having fun shouldn't be exclusive to the other 4 classes.
I do however agree on one point and that is the fact that perhaps the Cleric doesn't need fixing, but certain abilities of the other classes do. But that would only touch the balance issues, personally, I'm sure a lot of other people would agree, I'm having a hard time having fun playing this class.. I'm not enjoying it as much as I would enjoy the healer class in any other MMO. Hopefully, despite your attempts to protect the clerics current state, they'll make the Cleric more fun to play (perhaps more challenging too, rather than a AS bot).
In the end, from watching all these forum posts and hearing from people in-game, the majority of Clerics does seem to be quite unhappy with their class. Especially the old D&D fans who expected a strong shield and plate wearing Cleric, also people like me who's played healer class for about 10 years in other MMO's hate the lack of protection, flexibility and anti-CC. While I do understand you're on a crusade to prove how much of a magnificent player you are with your guild premades, ancient weapons, special PvP build and what not and how fantastic the Cleric is (we just can't see it), I think you're wasting your energy on a fight you can't win.
If it makes you happy however, I will acknowledge you as the master Cleric, the king of all nerds - nay, the Arch-nerd.
/shrug I do very well solo in pugs as well.
Not sure what else to say.
Quit and make another class, come back when you think the cleric is better and easier for you I guess.
Comments
Cleric's defense softcap is reached without trying to and any extra points into that seem to suffer crazy diminishing returns. It's not possible for cleric to improve defense past what Cryptic decided all cleric's should have. It is same with all primary cleric's stats - in end no matter which set people wear they all have nearly identical primary capped stats there is no customization.
You can't move while using at-wills like some people think. They mistake a divine mode at-will which eats all divine power in very short time when used for normal at will - without divine power cleric can't heal for nothing in most cases. The at-will heal is same. They both eats divine power in moments and then don't work till cleric does damage for a while and recharges divine power. (you also don't gain divine power while in divine power mode)
What is divine power ? An extra hoop cleric has to jump threw to cast any meaningful power. Doing damage fills divine power bar and stores 3-4(with feat) charges which can be used to cast improved versions of powers. So cleric "can't" heal without doing damage. (ie: AS cast without charge only offers damage reduction, AS cast with charge also heals) Half the feats cleric takes are so he can get/manage divine power more easily.
I also have CW and TR. CW's shield and teleport make him have really good survivability in pvp in hands of skilled player. TR is just godly... deflection, stealth + dodges and skill for total immunity I can usually contest point alone against multiple enemies for extended periods of time and survive. All cleric has is 2 dodges with really slow stamina recharge plus penalty to self heals when heals are already pretty pathetic without it.
I think cleric is actually balanced as soon as damage in pvp is reduced for everyone(no 1-3 shots) and perma stun removed (short immunity to stun after you been stunned). Otherwise if pvp is gonna be stun fest and 1 hits then healing is useless and DC needs major boosts in other areas.
You can't use At-Wills while running, sorry dude, think you've been misinformed. Unless you mean DoT and then run.
And no you shouldn't have to pay ZEN and respecc just to be good in PvP (no other class has to).
Actually, you're doing it wrong. You should be able to take down a cleric alone, easily. You're not "decent", you're obviously below that if you can't put up more than 1.5k damage per second (which is basically the max amount a cleric can heal himself when desperately trying to survive by burst healing). You do realize Healing Word heals for like 500 health every tick? You can't out-dps that? Pathetic.
Of course, the GWF is OP in PvP while the Cleric isn't
That is a prety good idea, let's see how much a DC can heal with everything.
Let's use the best case scenario: 4/4 miracle healer for the set bonus and 4,5k power, 2k crit, 2,5k recovery. Add +25% Linked Spirit and other party buffs, cos it's a perfect setup. 6k power 40% crit, 40% recharge speed 2,5k def 27k HP.
I'm assuming AS, SB and HW with moontouched HG and Miracle Healer 4/4. I assume 3 pips and full AP.
SB does around 1,5k heal every 8 secs. 900 Thru Righteousness. 112 Heals per sec. 40% crit chance with 100% severity (normal vorpal) is +20% healing, so 135 HPS. + MH setbonus does 5% Max HP which is 1350 HP/ 8 secs = 169 HPS.
So SB is 305 HPS.
AS tick somwehere around 350 every half secs, so it's 7k heals / 14 secs =500 HPS That is 300 HPS thru righteousness. Can't crit, MH 4/4 adds 1350/14 secs =96 HPS
So AS is 396 HPS.
HW in Divine is 8,5k heal in this setup. Tick for 10 seconds. So it's 850 HPS, or 510 through Righteousness. 40% crit with 100% severity adds +20% so 612 HPS. Add MH 4/4 1350/ 10 secs so 135 HPS.
So HW is 747 HPS.
Meanwhile HG was also running, that is 5% Max HP every 3 secs.
I don't think either crit or Righteousness affects this, so it's 1350/3= 450 HPS
So you blow everything you have and end up doing 1898 HPS. Now because I have the damage floaters turned off due to hating spam let's say I'm 20% off overall. we're still only at 2300 HPS. That's what DCs have against over 20k crits.
DCs have to kite perfectly for 10 seconds and use everything in their arsenal to counter 1 single push of a button from an equally geared TR or CW, 2 button pushes from GWF or GF.
Now I get that that is manageable for skilled players, I had my fare share of successful PvPs, but it is nowhere "fine" or "balanced".
And I've been very VERY generous with those numbers. pretty much a best case sceanario for the DC.
I also didn't count you being burst down before you could do anything, neither being perma CC-ed. I simply counted what would happen if you saw something coming your way and applied all you could before you got hit by the 1st spell, and could also avoid a second spell for 10 seconds.
This is why you need soulforged and perfect kiting skills or a teammate with CCs. i get it.
Unless you get the Lashing + Exec crit combo or the 2 encounter + Ice Knife crit combo. Nothing helps against those. Neither does any of that help against the perma CC from GWF or GF, since ragdolls can't cast anything.
So if you did apply everything and the enemy is a GWF or GF, or not-critting TR or CW, you can probably be saved by teammates.
Yeah, I understand when ppl say that with a decent gear*, team and good kiting skills you can get decent results but you're never gonna make me believe this is balanced or intended. I think the intended PvP was the sub-60 PvP where you could wail at each other for tens of seconds, possibly minutes with DCs on both sides and it went until a team finally lined up a CC streak on an enemy player.
But I bet you 1- 2- and 3-shot kills and perma-CCs and perma-Stealths weren't intended. PvP was balanced around blue gear with no enchants, not purple with enchants. That is all the problem there is. Dmg scales better in endgame gear than survivability.
*Although I say decent, the 4/4 MH and Grand or Ancient accessories with Ancient weapons , rank 7 gems and normal Soulforged and Vorpal I counted with in this post is either a hell of a lot of farming or around 5 mill AD currently on Beholder. I think that's pretty much above "decent". I know it could be perfects and rank 10s, compared to those I guess this really is "only decent".
Sorry champ, but it's clear from the numbers you've just mentioned that you are doing something horribly wrong with your stats / gearing or build if your BoH is only healing for 2k. I've seen BoH crits heal for over half a life-bar (L60 target so I'm assuming 10k+ heal). My Healing Word ticks in the 1600s on a crit (with procs up - 75% severity and it goes off at least once per three charges) and I'm only sitting on 10.1k GS, which is not hard to get.
I think the issue is that you don't seem to appreciate what Clerics do well and what they don't do well. Clerics don't do sustained healing or "heal through" damage - end of story. It is not how they function and it why healing pots are on such a short cooldown in this game. Clerics can prevent or mitigate damage well through active and passive damage reductions AND buff their allies. I recommend focusing your build and gearing around that aim. Two feats that I believe you can't be without, at the moment, are Linked Spirit and Benefit of Foresight. If you are going to continue using BoH then Warding Shield is also a must.
That said, I think you'd be far better off using Chains of Blazing Light, Forgemaster's Flame or Divine Glow instead of BoH. If you have to heal, use Soothing Light. Chances are you'll only be healing one target at a time against a good team because they'll focus targets. Your aim in these situations isn't to heal through the damage (you won't anyway). Your aim is to break up the focus (Sunburst knockback for example) or increase the time-to-kill (Divine Armour or Astral Shield in combination with your limited heals) so that the target can dodge or someone can CC or peel.
Trying to solo cap or hold objectives as a Cleric died when Astral Shield got nerfed. Don't bother. Leave that to perma-stealth rogues, GFs or Sentinel GWFs. Your role is to help control the middle-ground. Leave the ninja capping to others.
You are misinformed sir. My crit healing words to self are usually around 5-7k, and I've hit quite a bit higher then that. When played right the DC class has ridiculous burst heals.
Soothing Light/self>sunburst>healing word/divine -15k+to self heal.
Whats pathetic is you and your attempt to belittle someone when you are out of your element....
Can't heal team enough because PvP is a 1-2 hit and/or a knockdown fest = I'm a bad cleric
I get one hit by the enemy because I have **** gear = I'm a bad cleric
I don't have $$ to buy Zen for gear = I'm a bad cleric
I go to forums and whine about how ****ty my DC experience is = I'm a bad cleric
Oh yea kinda funny the so called "healing class" is the one using the most pots in runs.
FailFish
5-7k per tick? If so, how? If it's the total heal over the ten seconds, then I agree that isn't hard to achieve.
This is the best Reply ever. And I'll bump it more than once.
Critting with at least one pip of divine power yes, I crit that much on other players, not on my self (I only have 11.3k GS sadly). But you don't always crit and you don't always have 1 pip on the divine power. And we're talking about healing per second. Those 15k+ is gone in one good crit from a TR/GWF/GF/CW, and then you're back on your healing word and astral shield which everyone can outdps.
even if you are good at kiting it still is very problematic when fighter types can hit you and knock you flat on your back from 10 feet away (wouldn't be so bad but clerics only get two port/slides to a CW's three and you quite often need two back to back to escape a position... ie. using the first while a fighter is at a distance is going to leave you vulnerable to their long stuns unless they charged to where you were)
I've hit over 15k+ to self heals with that rotation, thats not counting the other ticks, or regen. With that rotation our righteousness is reduced to -17% with the build that I use. My highest self crit on healing word divine is just shy over 11k
No Foresight and 1500 defense, you probably don't last long while you are under CC.
The problem with cleric is not that the healing is bad, it's more like healing grants no assist. So what's the point ?
People expect clerics to heal in dungeons, but PVP doesn't reward healing.
So you most likely need to be Heal specced for PvE, and DPS Specced for PVP.
They both require very different gear, since you need armor pen for DPS. But no DPS Cleric is viable in a group unless the group is overstuffed or mazochist. Any other dps class will do better.
Clerics need to be rewarded for healing in PvP, or they have no point in doing so.
Clerics need more utility as DPS, or they will have no point in speccing that way.
Cleric is the only class (with protector GFs) that needs a different gear plus a different build for PVP/PVE, because PVP doesn't reward healing and DPS Clerics are obsolete for dungeons.
- DRAGON - ( Mehrea DC 13.1k ) - ( Volsung TR 11.7k )
I use the same build, same gear, for both pve and pvp and do very well. Against anyone. Try a new build if cant survive against a silly rogue and cw, they are out there.
I agree with the rewards for healing.
Should be with your group capping points anyway though
I have 12.4k GS full MH and I have no prob surviving TR or any class, thank you. And with 1500 defense, of course you will not survive if a TR and a CW decide to team up on you, unless they are noobs. Stop showing off, you're pissing people.
What I pointed is that PVP doesn't reward healing and therefore healing is useless. Heal spec in pvp has then no use. If you wan't to score, you must dps, and the dps spec requires a very different gear, and is obsolete for PVE. That issue must be addressed.
- DRAGON - ( Mehrea DC 13.1k ) - ( Volsung TR 11.7k )
Rewarding for heals doesnt matter. If you arent a tool and doing your job correctly, you are keeping your team alive, and capping points. If you are a dps cleric thats silly =/
I dont care about your silly GS
It does matter, the devs themselves pointed it when they released the patch that disabled assists for healing.
I am not a DPS cleric, when I PVP, I do it as a healer, supporting my team.
But the truth is that you are not rewarded for doing this, and it must be addressed. Could you imagine being a TR and not being rewarded for killing people ? The devs themselves communicated that they would think about it in a later patch. The question now is "when" ? Hopefully before the game is deserted.
In my opinion, the Virtuous paragon needs a rework to make it more viable and allowing clerics to dps without a different gear. For exemple, a tweak giving 50% of the Recovery as Armor penetration, or something of that kind. That would allow the cleric to both fill the task of moderate healer if needed, or dps. And no it's not OP, considering GFs have a tweak doubling their Power. That's just an idea, though.
- DRAGON - ( Mehrea DC 13.1k ) - ( Volsung TR 11.7k )
I assure you healing upon self is pretty bad upon clerics... my clerics often have to go looking for and wait for healing potions to respawn cause self-healing can still be a joke.
yeh.....playing DC in pvp vs decent opponents is a freaking joke
- dodge initial attack, stun, knockback, knockback, down to 30%, get off 1 heal - up to 38% - knockback - dead
or rogue= just dead
its like ur playing uphill but its not uphill its up like mount Everest and at the top u just get to live u don't get to own nyone
its disgusting honestly...
rolling a rogue lol
if u don't buy it.....count how many dcs u see in bgs if you play them often - not many.........why b/c they suck ***
just to be clear...yeh a dc can survive vs a bad player 1v1 but then it takes 35 minutes to do any dmg to them and they can run away at any second of course
Really !!!!?? You can MOVE??? Dear sir if it weren't for you I would have been left in the dark for ages. Let's see you dodge a gf sniper shield bash , get stunned wait for stupid animation to get up , by that time ur already DEAD...Cleric is TOO dependent of it's team apart from all classes. If I'm a healer I shoul keep myself alive at least for some time, If I'm a dps cleric I expected to be some CW ...
Serious you brag about everything regarding this class ..Even if what you say is true that you do 15k heal (which I seriously doubt) you still can't stop a 23 k right in the face..
+ 1 mil
Let's face it !! Nobody cares in pvp to save ur sorry 1 shot a*s
Open your eyes already this game has hundreds of bugs..read the damned forums..Or do I have to remind everyone the 99 stacks of rank 5 enchantments in the ah that are still not removed and the exploiters not banned. But I guess that how many of you made AS so easily and get geared as well...
I doubt you have ever seen a million dollars. But that doesnt mean it doesnt exist. Whether you believe me or not, it is happening, and I am not the only one doing it.
I am not bragging about anything, I never have. I am doing my diligence as a fellow cleric, to inform you there are builds that clerics are using that make them near impossible to take down. Even being stunned, locked etc. I am not calling you a "bad" cleric, nor anyone else. I encourage you to try out new builds, as it is obvious what you are doing is not working for you. Check out my build, it is working very well for me, and with a little skill you will see a noticeable differance, I guarantee it.
As far as taking a 23k crit to the face. Thats not even remotely a valid point. I've hit people for 32k with Ice Knife on my CW. Does that mean that there class is broken too? I think not, its obvious the dmg from certain class's abilities in this game need to be toned down. It has absolutely nothing to do with the cleric class whatsoever.
I think we all see your BS as bragging man. It's getting so old. Your fancy build is just the Faithful/Linked Spirit build with some bonus defence increasing, that's my specc - minus the defensive stuff. In a good premade I'm unstoppable just like you're braggin about being, but that's just because of my team mates. Now imagine yourself in a terrible PUG from queuing alone..
And a Cleric should have the option to go for a DPS build without being bullied and yelled at for not healing, why else would such a feat path be available? Surely, having fun shouldn't be exclusive to the other 4 classes.
I do however agree on one point and that is the fact that perhaps the Cleric doesn't need fixing, but certain abilities of the other classes do. But that would only touch the balance issues, personally, I'm sure a lot of other people would agree, I'm having a hard time having fun playing this class.. I'm not enjoying it as much as I would enjoy the healer class in any other MMO. Hopefully, despite your attempts to protect the clerics current state, they'll make the Cleric more fun to play (perhaps more challenging too, rather than a AS bot).
In the end, from watching all these forum posts and hearing from people in-game, the majority of Clerics does seem to be quite unhappy with their class. Especially the old D&D fans who expected a strong shield and plate wearing Cleric, also people like me who's played healer class for about 10 years in other MMO's hate the lack of protection, flexibility and anti-CC. While I do understand you're on a crusade to prove how much of a magnificent player you are with your guild premades, ancient weapons, special PvP build and what not and how fantastic the Cleric is (we just can't see it), I think you're wasting your energy on a fight you can't win.
If it makes you happy however, I will acknowledge you as the master Cleric, the king of all nerds - nay, the Arch-nerd.
But I am having trouble finishing T2 dungeons with the current gear if I got, these are the 8300 gs epics even though i have 9.1k and yes this is more than likely the pug as well but i check the GS before we start and every time there above 9.1k upwards.
So if we are unable to gear up using the current gear we have now what? just reroll a TR or CW or GWF? as these all seem to be well over powered compared to our class that just gets face planted within seconds, no CC protection no Diminishing returns on CC and no decent heals as most of HoT unless we use WoM in divine but then I struggle to raise my divine back up if i use on WoM.
Most fights in PvP are just stay at the back trying to heal, you get sneaked up on by rouge in stealth dazed - dead
CW frozen thrown about dead GWF jumped on dead, this is stood in AS.
I am with the OP something needs changing and Cryptic are not even acknowledging there is an issue but why so many complaints if there is no issue?
As the OP said the class is not fun, and like the OP i too have played healer in every MMO i have played for the past 10 years never had an issue reaching end game and playing the content getting geared and playing PvP.
Past few nights i login try and have a game of PvP get annihilated end up with zero or very little points for the time spent.
Try a T2 dungeon group wipes as they cannot do enough damage and the adds end up chasing me around someone leaves, dungeons over back in PE stood there wondered wtf I am even logged in for log out go play Rift or Terra, hell even my tablet over this game atm.
We need a direct heal ( group one preferably) that does not cost divine but has a 10 second cooldown so its no OP, we need some form of defense boost and we need some CC protection, there is no MMO i have played that does not have diminishing returns on CC effects, how can you defend your self or heal when you are constantly stunned and dazed and frozen etc till you are dead?
Look at the powers for example, once you have got AS there really is nothing worth spending your last points in which is odd as in most MMO's the last power you take is your WTF power the one you race to get too, leveling as quick as you can to get this power but not in this game there is nothing beyond AS that i want or need, and ended up just spending the last of my points on nothing really. There is no versatility in the class you can switch maybe 1 or 2 powers but nothing more or you will gimp yourself even more than we already are.
/shrug I do very well solo in pugs as well.
Not sure what else to say.
Quit and make another class, come back when you think the cleric is better and easier for you I guess.
GL to ya!