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The problem with GWF being AoE DPS
citizynking
Member Posts: 31 Arc User
Nobody really cares about AoE DPS. There, I said it.
In the end, with or without a GWF, most parties are going to be taking out the trash between the bosses just fine, and to actually try and convince a group that they need to waste a class slot soley based around dealing with said trash is just going to result in those of us who enjoy two-handed warrior archetypes having a bad time.
Should we be doing the same dps as Rogues? No, of course not. They are (supposedly) squishy melee dps while we are tanky melee dps. At the same time, I would argue that we both are tanky and just have two different forms of mitigation. Evasion for Rogues and durability for GWFs.
Still, we should both be centered around doing single target DPS, since its really what matters. In PVP, AoE doesnt matter since you want individuals to be dead as soon as possible so they stop outputting damage. In PVE, AoE doesnt really matter since the most important challenge in the dungeon is the boss . So why on earth are we being balanced around trash mobs instead of bosses that actually matter? Why are be being balanced around AoE when its almost never actually been a thing to factor in on a pvp game?
In the end, with or without a GWF, most parties are going to be taking out the trash between the bosses just fine, and to actually try and convince a group that they need to waste a class slot soley based around dealing with said trash is just going to result in those of us who enjoy two-handed warrior archetypes having a bad time.
Should we be doing the same dps as Rogues? No, of course not. They are (supposedly) squishy melee dps while we are tanky melee dps. At the same time, I would argue that we both are tanky and just have two different forms of mitigation. Evasion for Rogues and durability for GWFs.
Still, we should both be centered around doing single target DPS, since its really what matters. In PVP, AoE doesnt matter since you want individuals to be dead as soon as possible so they stop outputting damage. In PVE, AoE doesnt really matter since the most important challenge in the dungeon is the boss . So why on earth are we being balanced around trash mobs instead of bosses that actually matter? Why are be being balanced around AoE when its almost never actually been a thing to factor in on a pvp game?
Post edited by citizynking on
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Oh I'm sorry, do you speak for the entire population of Neverwinter players?
Contribute or leave, otherwise I'm going to ignore anything you say in this thread.
And you called yourself a "seasoned mmo vet?" Lol ok.
It's not bosses that are challenging. It's all of their adds that are challenging. Most of the incoming damage that kills player characters comes from the adds, not the boss. The ability of CW's to push everything off a cliff trivializes/minimizes the need for both AOE DPS and tanking on adds. I'm not saying anything we all haven't been saying for months, but they can change the tires as much as they want. Until they fix the road, it's going to remain bumpy for GWF's.
There are a couple ways to fix this. But all ways I suggest will NOT increase a GWF's power in PvP.
#1) Remove GWF's hit cap and damage reduction based on number of mobs hit. This means that a GWF will be the #1 Damage Dealt in Dungeons all the time. But we still know a Rogue will be doing 3 times the DPS a GWF can do in boss fights. But at least with this advantage players may want to have a GWF on Boss adds.
#2) Fix the "Need" for CW pushes in boss fights. IE Spellplague, Dread Vaults and Castle Never. These boss fights are so difficult in there Epic versions that you cannot do them without a CW pushing mobs off cliffs, If not 2 CW's pushing mobs off cliffs. Make the Adds weaker, lower defense and HP so GWFs can actually pick up the adds and burn them down. I do not see why this is not done, adds Infinitely respawn anways why make them so tough to be unkillable to only a Push power. Speaking of unkillable adds also look at Frozen heart to fix that one too.
Another note. I really want to see this fix made, because what happens when we get new "control" classes that do not have the CW's epic push. They will never find a place in the party. Or if they have a better and easier to use push they will replace the CW. Pushing should not be this valuable in the game. It's cool, great for clearing dungeons of trash but should not be a necessity in boss fights.
#3) Buff the GWF's PvE Powers. Have Daring Shout Buff the entire parties Defense and not just the GWFs, Have Battle Furor buff the entire parties damage and increase it's duration. Remove hit cap on Come and Get it, Not so Fast and Mighty Leap. Also buff the damage on "Come and get it" the damage it grants is not worth it at all as an Encounter Damage move. Give Roar more knock back and knock targets prone. It needs to be an AOE control that other players want to see the GWF using to keep adds off them.
#4) All of the above, seriously. A little bit of everything I suggest will be the best way to improve the GWF without causing a devistating change in any one area.
See, this is the kind of input I was hoping for. If they want us to be AoE, and they want AoE to actually be desired, they need to make it necessary. As is, there is little point to us. Too many games these days are popping up with the idea that Warrior archetypes need to be AoE, but arent actually changing the traditional game mechanics to reflect this decision.
Those who not see the benefit of clearing trash fast and saving time are not worth wasting your time on, this thread is stupid.
Agreed. We need a little more oomph to our skills.
As well as a dodge element to our sprint, it just doesn't make sense to have ran all the way across the room and still get hit by an attack that started ages ago and miles away.
Make Mighty Leap an interrupt too and improve the dodge feature on it, because right now that 0.1 second it acts as a dodge is not enough.
LOL Vets would actually take any class in any T2. It's actually those that cant handle the content or are barely making it that like to stack DCs, stack CWs, etc..
In any case, I completely disagree with you with regards to AoE damage. It most certainly is important. My main is a CW and my build is specifically designed for max AoE damage. With regards to a GWF, it is extremely important to maintain his AoE focus. Not for killing the adds necessarily but for maintaining aggro on the adds to draw them away from the squishies.
And your argument that a TR is as tanky as a GWF through evasion, is borderline absurd and an indication that you probably dont even play the GWF class. Not only are GWF insanely Tanky through defense and flat mitigation via perma Unstoppable, they can even have more deflection than a TR. Also a GWF on the boss, may not do as much dps as a TR, but at the same time is providing a HUGE debuff giving the TR, and everyone else, even more dps.
The class isn't perfect yet, but it is by far more viable than you are claiming it to be.
So what's your point? what were you trying to propose? not only does your proposal lacks any sort of details whatsoever, it summarizes, nothing. Were you proposing that a single target dps capability of a GWF is buffed? ok, how? to what extent? in comparison with a TR, should it be better than a TR? no, because it wouldn't make sense, you said it yourselves, and it would result in an outrage from TR players as well, should it be slightly worse than a TR? no, because you only promoted the usage of classes in terms of single target dps/bosses/dungeon runs/party, and people would still pick TR over GWF.
When you're trying to "buff" a class, so that there are two classes with fairly even performance in a certain role people will always pick the better one of the two, since you're trying to compare GWF to a TR outside of the GWF's intended role (AoE DD) which is single target dps, so then you'll have two classes that could fill that one particular role, people will always pick the best one to do that job. So no, even when you buff GWF's single target dps, people would still pick TR over you, that's simple logic. The problem is not with the class, but with the dungeon/game mechanics.
So, again, what's the point? what were you trying to propose?
Total damage done doesnt really matter. It's more about effective damage.
We'd always laugh back in the days of WoW when the rogue would jump in and fan of knives his way up to stupid damage done on the DPS charts. Didnt mean the mobs actually died any faster. Do 50 damage to 10 mobs and its gonna list you as doing 500 damage, but really? You're still only doing 50 damage with the move.
I'll reiterate, buff single target dps to what end? TR should be better on doing single target DPS than GWF, that's a fixed game mechanic that I'm pretty sure Cryptic will not violate, ever. So even when they buff GWF to an extent that it's better than now but slightly worse than TR, people would still pick TR over GWF for boss dps purposes. So why should Cryptic buff GWF's single target DPS at all?
Also, apparently reading comprehension is not a lot of you lot's strong point, so I'll clarify:
1. As is, there is no point in taking a GWF over any other class, since every other class does our job better.
2. If Cryptic wants us to be a strictly AoE DPS, they need to reflect this in the dungeons by giving us an actual role that people will want us for. They also need to do something similar with pvp.
3. If Cryptic wants us to be a DPS, but doesnt want to actually make us necessary in dungeons, and wants us to still be a viable pvp choice, they need to buff our damage up to respectable levels.
I dont see how that's so hard to comprehend? It seems like the only people griping about GWFs wanting buffs to our DPS spec (see: Not the currently OP weird pseudo-tank FoTM spec) are the people who have less competition from us being useless as DPS, AoE or otherwise. Super shady there fellas.
Sorry what? All damage is effective damage as long as you're not knocking the mobs off the cliff. There are plenty of dungeons where you can't do that including the first half of CN. I've never once heard of people kicking GWF's.
The WoW example you've given is either missing a lot of context or you've fundamentally misunderstood, if you hit 10 mobs for 50 damage your effective damage is not 50, it's 500. Effective damage =/= Single target only. Unless those mobs are going to despawn or are required to be left up in which case it's called 'Meter padding'. In Nevetwinter mobs are either knocked off(instantaneous) or you kill them all, there's no room for padding.
Total damage absolutely does matter too, as 95% of the content in dungeons is trash and being able to mow through that determines the run speed, if you're really struggling with the class I suggest you reroll.
A good GWF that properly animation cancels WMS, has managed his stat DRs and softcaps has the highest AoE damage by a good margin.
The reason people get annoyed when you crawl to the forums pandering for unnecessary buffs is not because they're 'shady' and want to continue being useless(really?), it's because they don't want to have to go through a string of nerfs 2 months down the line when you finally take your babby wheels off.
To all of you people who think in numbers and bring the logic " if a CW can do it why we need a GWF " to the table - this is not a second ( or first for somebody) job. This is a game and here's a ground breaking concept - games are played for fun. If a person prefers a certain type of gameplay then said person goes for a certain class. If a certain class can do a job that another class can also perform then what ? Absolutely nothing! Ppl play what they want, how they want it. Its not a popularity contest its a personal choice. Ive had it with these over-optimizations of teams and calculating how to do some content faster. Just enjoy your bloody class and play the game
edit - So its all about the **** pvp for you.. hopeless
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
It'd be nice if you actually read the thread before trying to spew your nonsense.
If you'd actually been paying attention, you'd have seen that none of us are actually getting to participate (Hint: Not being able to participate isnt "fun"). We talk in logic and numbers because they're what counts in the scheme of things. Your potential to "have fun" rides on them. Want to have fun and see the endgame instances? Great! Want to do it as a GWF? Too bad, so sad. Looks like you should have rolled a Trickster Rogue or a Control Wizard!
What you are complaining about is the result of PUGing or associating with players with tunnel vision. Sure in PUGs where a good majority don't even know their own class let alone the GWF class, you will have a worse time finding a spot. But in a mature guild, a core group of buddies, or simply with decent players, that is never an issue. Many people with GWFs, myself included, run plenty of T2, and without any more wipes than your "ideal" group. Many of us are having a blast with our GWFs.
What's funny is that you want to talk about "logic and numbers" when you haven't posted any. I was complaining about similar things until I spent more effort gearing my GWF. I substitute myself in place of a TR in CN with ZERO issues and we have it on farm status. Sure the class needs improvement, but you talk as if the class needs a complete overhaul, which is laughable.
Again, post something other than vague generalities than hasn't been beaten like a dead horse. It would appear that you may be judging the situation based on a pugging perspective, which is terrible. 80% of the pugs can't comprehend even the mechanics of the easiest dungeons.
So, either find yourself a better guild, get better gears, or L2play the class. You don't need to be a no-lifer to play a GWF efficiently. If you don't like it, reroll.
It needs tweaking but it sure as hell ain't useless.
Buff it to help out a little more on Boss fights? duh. I help the TR with Bosses when I play on my GWF, it's a no brainer, GWF Student of the Sword Feat + Plague Fire = Massive Def debuff, along with Combat Advantage you gain with another person.
I'm not saying give us high Single DPS as a TR just buff it up a little more.
Using wow as an analogy, their warrior class dps tree can reach the standard of their rogue dps class. They also bring a unique buff to the party.
Also in d&d, which nwo is based off, striker fighter class should have the highest dps. Rogues are "for profit" class. Pick pocketing, lying, backstabbing HAMSTER. Not tank the boss + spank .
If GWFs can do as much single target dps as TRs, then what's the point of bringing a TR? Do you ever think about that?
Exactly.. whats the point of bring a gwf when cw can deal as much aoe dmg? And kills mobs faster by throwing off cliff? Sad face panda
this.
I don't understand why we must be "AOE" Off tank.
Rogue have CC abilities like : smoke, stealth and etc to bring to the table.
Why cant GWF have the highest single and aoe dmg?
Leader was like...ok we are going to knock them off the bridge....singularity was then used. Mobs were all bunched up...they all died before CW could pitch them off.
Leader was like....well....guess we don't need to pitch any more.
I do agree though that they need to remove the cap and remove damage reduction per mob hit.
Then they are terribad players, I TR can't do what a GWF can on boss fights with the slew of adds that accompany all bosses. Not only that but they can take a beating something TR's can't do as well. Only a total moron would take a TR over a GWF (if equally geared and skilled)...
So no you do NOT speak for the majority but nice try
Other than that, on the topic of animation cancel. To that I say WTF MAN?! You want me to break my arm trying to be more efficient?