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No, this game is Not D&D.
jaymadiv
Member Posts: 423 Arc User
It's a Fantasy-Action MMO with the D&D License for Characters and Environments.
it's not a literal translation of the tabletop game. It just has the license to use the Forgotten Realms 4E Campaign setting. Creature names, Character names, Class/skill names, Environments, and Lore. But it's not REALLY built on any D&D ruleset, gameplay-wise.
I don't think this is debatable. but I've been known to be wrong on plenty of occasions.
Sooner we get past this, the more enjoyable the game will most likely be. at least that is how it is for me. YMMV.
personally, I don't see how a literal translation would actually work in a MMO environment and not be a horrific failure, but that is neither here nor there. it can work for a low-volume game like NWN (and yes, 32 players is low-volume), but not sure for a MMO. thoughts?
Now, not taking either side on this next bit, just making an observation.
From what I have read on these forums, regardless of how it begins, pretty much every "This isn't D&D enough" thread seemingly revolves around 1 of two things.
1) My cleric can't wear plate, carry a 2h hammer, tank everything, do godly damage, turn an army of undead, and keep everyone healed all at once without breaking a sweat.
2) There's only 5 classes, unless there are 60 classes, double classes, triple classes, it's not D&D.
yes, I exaggerated a bit, but the point stands. the two biggest "Not D&D" issues I see complained about the most is that Clerics don't wear plate, can't turn undead, and don't carry 2-handers, and that there are only 5 classes in the game so far. one of which can be remedied, and one, I'm not so sure.
as a Non-D&D tabletop player, i find that curiously interesting. since i never played Tabletop RPGs, I've never seen a Cleric in plate. i'm accustomed to them wearing Chainmail or Cloth, and using a 1H Mace, or a Sceptre, depending on the game. I don't know what this "Symbol" business is about with the Devoted Cleric. Should be a Sceptre by default. this Plate-wearing, 2-hand swinging Tank/Healer/DPS all at once Cleric you guys talk about sounds pretty cool and fun, but sounds like it would invalidate every other class. How does the Tabletop game balance this? Does the tabletop game even *need* to balance this?
the 5 classes thing, that's simple. just add more classes until people decide it is D&D enough. then add more after that. maybe NW should have launched with the Warlock and Ranger, and started working on other classes. I wonder why they didn't launch with the Warlock and Ranger. weren't they in Closed Beta?
How many base classes are there anyhow(since the NW classes are seeming based on the 4E Base Classes)?
it's not a literal translation of the tabletop game. It just has the license to use the Forgotten Realms 4E Campaign setting. Creature names, Character names, Class/skill names, Environments, and Lore. But it's not REALLY built on any D&D ruleset, gameplay-wise.
I don't think this is debatable. but I've been known to be wrong on plenty of occasions.
Sooner we get past this, the more enjoyable the game will most likely be. at least that is how it is for me. YMMV.
personally, I don't see how a literal translation would actually work in a MMO environment and not be a horrific failure, but that is neither here nor there. it can work for a low-volume game like NWN (and yes, 32 players is low-volume), but not sure for a MMO. thoughts?
Now, not taking either side on this next bit, just making an observation.
From what I have read on these forums, regardless of how it begins, pretty much every "This isn't D&D enough" thread seemingly revolves around 1 of two things.
1) My cleric can't wear plate, carry a 2h hammer, tank everything, do godly damage, turn an army of undead, and keep everyone healed all at once without breaking a sweat.
2) There's only 5 classes, unless there are 60 classes, double classes, triple classes, it's not D&D.
yes, I exaggerated a bit, but the point stands. the two biggest "Not D&D" issues I see complained about the most is that Clerics don't wear plate, can't turn undead, and don't carry 2-handers, and that there are only 5 classes in the game so far. one of which can be remedied, and one, I'm not so sure.
as a Non-D&D tabletop player, i find that curiously interesting. since i never played Tabletop RPGs, I've never seen a Cleric in plate. i'm accustomed to them wearing Chainmail or Cloth, and using a 1H Mace, or a Sceptre, depending on the game. I don't know what this "Symbol" business is about with the Devoted Cleric. Should be a Sceptre by default. this Plate-wearing, 2-hand swinging Tank/Healer/DPS all at once Cleric you guys talk about sounds pretty cool and fun, but sounds like it would invalidate every other class. How does the Tabletop game balance this? Does the tabletop game even *need* to balance this?
the 5 classes thing, that's simple. just add more classes until people decide it is D&D enough. then add more after that. maybe NW should have launched with the Warlock and Ranger, and started working on other classes. I wonder why they didn't launch with the Warlock and Ranger. weren't they in Closed Beta?
How many base classes are there anyhow(since the NW classes are seeming based on the 4E Base Classes)?
Post edited by jaymadiv#8056 on
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b: it's more simultaneous players than any Neverwinter Online instance.
More accurately, I would call it a spin-off, much like the Final Fantasy franchise has with games like FF Tactics, FF: Crystal Chronicles, FF Mystic Quest, etc. Just because they're not part of the core numbered series doesn't mean that the spin-offs are good or bad per se, just different to try and attract different people.
The D&D name even does this with it's own card game, arcade cabinets, board games, and ...... *gasp* video games!
thats going quite a bit overboard.
calling this a spinoff seems reasonable.
3.5 had; Barbarian, Bard, Cleric, Druid, Fighter, Monk, Paladin, Ranger, Rogue, Sorcerer and Wizard. (11 classes)
4.0 had; Cleric, Fighter, Paladin, Ranger, Rogue, Warlock, Warlord, Wizard (8 classes)
Neverwinter has DC, GF, GWF, TR, CW. (4 classes - GF and GWF are both Fighters)
However in version 3.5 of the rules, characters had the ability to wear any armour that they had proficiency for. So, a Cleric had up to heavy armour proficiency meaning that it could wear Cloth/Leather/Chain Mail/Scale Mail/Plate. The heavier armours being the best for them. Same goes for Fighters and Paladins. And unless you were using a 2 Handed Weapon, they could all use a shield too.
Rogues only had proficiency up to Leather (although you could buy the other grades of proficiency with Feats) but then anything heavier than leather started imposing penalties to the dexterity bonus.
4E changed this a bit so the highest for Clerics was chainmail.
Weapon wise, Clerics in 4E could use Simple Melee: Clubs, Daggers, Maces, Javelins, Sickles and Spears (as well as simple ranged) and they had a Holy Symbol as an implement. No Sceptre's whatsoever.
In 3.5 the list of simple weapons was a lot longer.
So, from 3.5 to 4E, WotC have trimmed down a lot of stuff. Here, PW/Cryptic have cut down on what's already been cut down which is why a lot of people are complaining.
If you want, go check out DDO (Dungeons and Dragons Online) where they follow the spirit and the letter of the rules pretty close. Yes, the class imbalance is painful to say the least, and it's really lop sided in favor casters both divine and arcane.
In theory , because DnD is supposed to be about PvE, you don't really need to "balance" the classes, but, in the end, you can't have a few god classes and then a pile of poo and think that this won't cause problems for the game overall.
One of the things that DDO did was allow for multi-classing, this lead to insane builds as opposed to just a single class being great, you could make some insanely powerful builds, like for example, I had a 12 Fighter/ 8 Cleric build (Max level in DDO was 20th), the fighter levels gave me use of every weapon, every armor, and slew of combat abilities, the cleric levels gave me some of the best healing in the game. The ability to build as per the DndD rules allowed players to make some super-hero builds and some total fail builds.
But, to be honest, since both games are F2P, you won't lose anything one way or another going to check out DDO, to see what a more "true to the rules" DnD MMO can be. I personally left DDO after playing it for a few years, and while I enjoyed it, to me, it was a 6 year old game that was still falling apart at the seams, like a house that got patched too many times but never fixed.
The symbol, Holy Symbol is a Devotion Item, it is what the Cleric channels the power of their god through, like using a cross to ward off a vampire, but a cleric can use it to call down a rain of fire if they so wish.
I really have no played 4e, and not at all to be rude, but if Neverwinter is 4e rules, I can say I am glad I never played it.
But I think really, you hit the nail on the head when you said it really is a vanilla flavored MMO that is using 4e DnD Ambiance.
But here is the main issue with that. DnD offers several books of mobs to create, and several more entire books of classes, races, and just tons upon tons stories, and everything else you can think of. Basically, we have the means today to make an action RPG MMO based on DnD and a lot of fans of the DnD game want that, there is a large market for that Table Top feel in a DnD MMO.
This is very well said. qft.
D&D Home Page - What Class Are You?
Please leave if you don't like it.
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No one will ring at your door to tell you "cheater" for not using strictly the rules, and you don't go around to your unknown neighbors to ask if they are a DC with 10k gs ready to start a dungeon. You also don't do over and over the same adventure and you can't play for 12hrs in a row because you won't enjoy it.
I don't know what super hardcore D&D players can do, but in general it's a social, friendly experience you do once or twice a week, not every evening after work.
I think many people who complain about the lack of "D&Dness" are against this pace. Especially the loyal old tabletop players who aren't accustomed to frenzy reactions that comes with last generation of videogames, prefer a turn-based pace where you can think and solve puzzles rather than running fast because so you can do 2 delve's runs in the hour it's up.
What does it mean being skilled at D&D? knowing the rules, knowing the bestiary and being clever, and being good at "playing a role". It's like acting. Instead this game is more like a sport and being GOOD at this is a matter of reaction. You don't have 5-6 seconds to react, you have less than 1, this timeframe doesn't leave much to your imagination, you need to be concentrated if you aren't used to fps/mmos.
What is "hard" in D&D? I don't know, probably nothing in therms of combat, it's more about making the right decision for your role and solving puzzles/misteries. "Hard" in an action game is generally accepted as "you need korean-style reactions".
This game CAN'T be D&D, and personally I think no realtime MMO can ever be even similar to D&D. I understand some people may think they have been baited, and I partly agree with them, but what did you expect? For the average customer (15-25 yo) a game like that goes from boring to trivial. NWN was more a single-player/cooperative game without real competition. MMOs have a strong competitive component to keep engaged "skilled" players, who generally "explain" the strats by showing their e-peen on youtube.
I like competition, I like D&D old style too. This game lacks any form of non skill-based action, nothing to solve, just hit, move, loot.
Feel free to disagree, just my 2c
Yah, you might want to at least give DDO a look through. While I think there are better games then DDO out there, it was a more true to the rules DnD based MMO. Not sure how it is today, I stopped playing a while back, but, since it is F2P you lose nothing giving it a look over and seeing if what you think is true that a DnD MMO can't be made.
D&D Home Page - What Class Are You?
did i, in any fashion, infer that i do not like the game?
or did i give the impression that i did not like D&D or the fact that you have been playing for almost 20 years
if so i apologize. i like the game. a lot. i have no opinion on D&D, as i have no experience with it. and how long you have been playing D&D is really none of my business.
there is really nothing "korean" about the game. unless you equate anything with a cash shop with "korean". and thats not uniquely korean either.
especially since Cryptic is an American company and PW is a Chinese publisher.
to be honest, the point of this thread wasnt to complain that the game isnt D&D enough. but rather to acknowledge this fact, and move past it. the game has much more pressing issues.
as far as D&Dness goes, i like this game for what it is, in that regard. a fun action-combat mmo set in Forgotten Realms world setting.
have fun discussing.
Actually, if you had played TERA, you would see there are some striking similarities between the two games in regards to the mouse/key combat, and the single style of weapon use of the classes.
D&D Home Page - What Class Are You?
How would you know if the game was "D&D enough" if you don't have any experience with D&D?
thank you for the explanation! makes these complaints make a lot more sense.
It just might not be the D&D some want or are used to. This is nothing new as well, as there have been many complaints or dislikes from or by long time players over things they find unappealing in one edition or another.
So, for those that claim this isn't D&D, the history of D&D itself is against you.
simple answer is, i wouldn't.
i am not the final judge of what is D&D enough and what isnt.
i am commenting on what i see from tabletop players both ingame, and on these forums. from what i can tell, it is not a truly faithful adaptation of tabletop. and thats ok, imo. obviously, many will disagree.
i have played Tera. the fact that NW had similar combat is what brought me here.
with that said, since when is a Third-Person Shooter control scheme a Korean thing?
Everything else is just a matter of opinion, which seems to vary wildly between people.
(actually, I remember all the way back to blue-book Basic D&D.... that didn't have a good number of the things people keep saying are needed for a game to "be D&D".)
Just wanted to add, I Loved Final Fantasy Tactics, one of my All time Favorite games
Life is a dream for the wise, a game for the fool, a comedy for the rich, a tragedy for the poor.
~Sholom Aleichem
DDO is proof alone that a real time MMO CAN be similar to D&D. They have a lot of core mechanics (traps, feats, rogue skills, swimming even though highly underutilized or trivilialized) and feel through their excellent quest DM narrations. But DDO is a dated engine that needs a serious reboot and if they ever do make a reboot then they would decimate Neverwinter.
What Cryptic did though was design a themepark on rails MMO with a D&D skin and disregarded pretty much every friggin aspect of D&D mechanics.
Baited? That's an understatement, they downright deceived players by advertising this game as providing a true D&D experience which it is anything but that. Sure you can create adventures, even though it's severely limited, but that's the ONLY thing they got somewhat in the ballpark.
Neverwinter is as much as D&D at Baldur's Gate: Dark Alliance or Demon Stone.
Except you left out the part that FF tatics and all those games were NEVER advertised as being what the core FF series were all about unlike Neverwinter. Neverwinter WAS advertised as providing a true D&D experiance and the FOR fans of D&D (which if for D&D fans is a watered down pos game that only resembles the IP in skin and lore then sure they did that). They made huge claims how this will be a great D&D MMO that will have the spirit of D&D when in fact it's anything BUT that. Hence why even though the majority of my DDO guild tried out Neverwinter NONE of em stayed and went back to DDO even though it's a more dated and buggy game, BECAUSE it actually resembles and feels like D&D.
DDO really did capture the DnD Feel and game play, too bad, as you said, it became a dated game, and really in need of an overhaul not a patch or expansion.
And I have to agree, if they advertised that this was a "True Dungeons and Dragons Experience" they were outright lying.
D&D Home Page - What Class Are You?
Fighter against a caster? in open combat? Unless that fighter has magical protection, he is toast. (DDO has this issue)
Please review my campaign and I'll return the favor.
Link to a similar locked thread: More D&D, and less of whatever this is.
Link to the constructive continuation of that thread: "What D&D aspects we would like to see broadened"
"The harder the game, the better."