or it might be that PWE's business plan, as outlined in their stockholders report.
Gives games a 3-5 year lifespan and involves a lot of (their idea of) microtransactions. They are a publisher, they are not interested in longevity.
me, I count them as macros.
I don't understand why devs can't grasp the concept that these items cost them essentially nothing to sell. Price a bag at $10, and I won't buy any, price them at $1 and I'll buy the max for each of my characters. Sure they'd be "losing" the $9 difference in their eyes, but in reality, $1 per bag is better than the current $0 I'm going to spend on bags now, and at $1 apiece, I'd easily spend more than $10 total.
Same with pretty much everything else on the store. Some things like account-wide mounts I can understand at around $10-20, which they may be at (?) haven't looked. But one-off items for a single character? I'm not going to even consider them at their current price.
I'd wager it is because originally creating the items wasn't free and maintaining the game also has a decent price tag. The initial price of any item is = $/hr x man hours. They then have to make back the initial cost and have it yield a profit on that item. Without profit there is no point. Doing things for cost is bad business.
I have always been of the mind set of putting prices lower in hopes of attracting a more diverse customer base instead of hoping to net one or two big spenders. With that said here in NW you have to keep in mind that if they drastically lowered the prices without removing the AD-Zen conversions they would never make any money on any of the lower priced items. Prices are set high with the conversion in mind. I assume they don't expect you to drop 10 bucks a bag. It is more likely expect you do drop $5 and a bunch of AD bought Zen.
Wow great video and something every company that uses micro-transactions should think about.
The point about selling power is very valued, Once you give someone an REAL unfair advantage of others for money (Pay To Win) everyone else will tell you to get ducked .
The second great point separating paying and non-paying players. I remember when BF3 did that with premium I bought the game then paid premium came out others could use premium to skip the server queues on us non premium players. I left the game that day so did many other PC users.
Long story short the more someone tries to squeeze me for money the less I will pay. If you let me decide and give me a far go I will buy stuff out of wanting to support the game
The second great point separating paying and non-paying players. I remember when BF3 did that with premium I bought the game then paid premium came out others could use premium to skip the server queues on us non premium players. I left the game that day so did many other PC users.
Content locking was the reason I couldn't stand DDO. Buying Dungeons was just unacceptable to me.
25 years in the business artist and programmer, stole entire Alliance inventories in EvE, incited war between N. expanses and RUS, world first Raggy and Ony kills. I've... seen things you people wouldn't believe... Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion.. but Ive never seen a cash shop like this.
Any good or service is worth a different value to every consumer. The goal is to maximize profit...if PWE believes that current outrageous prices being purchased by a small percentage of the community is the way to go, more power to them.
However, when you look at the amount of money lost from players who refuse to pay for these services, as well as factoring in loss of player base due to people who leave the game because they feel it is not fair or balanced (see above pay for power, companions, enchant success, etc...) I would have to say their model right now is pretty terrible.
Also, how you personally feel about the zen market and whether or not you think it is fair is irrelevant. The fact remains people are quitting this game every day because it is unpolished, there is a lack of endgame content (pretty much only thing to do at endgame is CN exploit runs), Gauntlygrym is garbage, and the zen market is insane.
If you believe that these are not issues, or you think PWE / Cryptic should be given a break because the game is new, that is your personal opinion, continue on playing the game and enjoy.
The gaming community is unfortunately flooded with products, and the hard truth is that if your game sucks or has terrible prices I'll go play one that doesn't.
0
aeonbluessMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited June 2013
It seems to be commonly overlooked that $5 for a delux bag would allow players to easily purchase with out spending any money for a connivance item. 150,000 AD is easy to make, besides the fact that you don't need the deluxe bag. All my characters get a 12 slot bag with my HOTN account, and I never felt that I needed more bag space.
A wiser investment btw is to buy character slots. You can have leadership missions running 24/7, and more invokes. It costs nothing to transfer AD across an account. Once you have 3 or 4 characters at leadership 12+, you can bring in an extra 100k/week with minimal effort. Now you can throw down the $ you think is fair for the bag and make the rest by just pressing CTR I and doing some leadership missions.
The best value in this game is the $60 packs. Beyond that it's price gouging and borderline p2w for the best enchants due to needing the wards(Who will play a co-op feeling game enough to earn it via gameplay)
The best value in this game is the $60 packs. Beyond that it's price gouging and borderline p2w for the best enchants due to needing the wards(Who will play a co-op feeling game enough to earn it via gameplay)
Mmmh I would strongly disagree if it wasn't for the primary point you made about the Ward cost 1000 zen each($10 real money) 2 Enchantment slots for full sets main hand and armor that's at least $20s alone if you don't want to upgrade the enchantments even further... this potential for spending a lot of money for the "best gear" kinda worries me.
Mmmh I would strongly disagree if it wasn't for the primary point you made about the Ward cost 1000 zen each($10 real money) 2 Enchantment slots for full sets main hand and armor that's at least $20s alone if you don't want to upgrade the enchantments even further... this potential for spending a lot of money for the "best gear" kinda worries me.
This.
I think most people who try to argue that this game is in no way p2w tend to miss the "small" issue of end game enchants. Maybe they dont run t2, maybe they spam emotes in the Moonstone Mask, I dont know.
To me, zen "safe" enchanting to max is p2w. To me, being able to zen buy max speed mounts is (pvp, compared to others) p2w, or at the very least "pay 2 get something a hell of alot faster and easier, bypassing heavy grind". Since people at first got max speed mounts long before people could save up ingame for one, that WAS an advantage, plain and simple.
There are several examples like this, and NW being f2p or not seem to make alot of people sensitive and butt hurt. But hard to deny the simple fact regarding enchants.
While I agree that the store could use some improvements, some of the posters need to get out more. While, yes, there are better companies running cash shops out there (although few of them let you earn cash currency in-game like you can here), there are also companies that are orders of magnitude more abusive.
Aeria Games for example. Was bored waiting for NWO to come out, so I decided to observe the absurd spectacle and try out their new-at-the-time gratuitous-booby MMO. Not only was it a content-light (almost no story, not enough quest content to get you through the levels past ~15, massive traditional-Korean-MMO repeat grinding), but their cash shop was crazy. Almost everything people really wanted (fancy mounts, costumes, permanent storage, etc) available in different lottery boxes (up to $5 each). As mentioned, basic storage upgrades - bank and bag - are temporary. Lots of buff items in the cash shop. All the pet upgrades - including crazy powerful ones - only in the cash shop and untradeable (things like much faster regen of HP/MP/action points, up to $15-30). The signature aspect of the game (your characters can get naked! :rolleyes:), $20.
Oh, and the weekly "ladder" bonus events (spend enough in the cash shop to climb the "ladder" to various $ totals, get a prize! With the ladders going up to $100-150-200. That's right, to get the "best" prize, spend $100+ in a single weekend. And a new ladder every week. And you might have to do it several times in a weekend, if the "top" prize is a random chance and you didn't get the one you wanted. Assuming you're insane.)
Eventually, they heard people's complaints about "why are costumes and permanent storage only in random lottery boxes?!?" and put out a package that had a costume, a perm inventory, and a perm bank bag..... for the low price of $200.
And there's been more like that ever since. (I pop in to their forums once in awhile to see how hilariously bad things are. )
And the sad part is, enough people still use them enough to make a profit/give them no reason to improve prices. There were people reporting that they spent up to $4000 in the first month. It's crazy. But as long as there are enough crazy folks with way too much money on their hands and no impulse control? Doesn't matter if 95% of your players hate the prices, those other ones will make you a profit. (especially in the more niche games that'll never have a very large population and don't have much in the way of development costs. Like Aeria's string of throw-away import games.)
Those games suck, so why compare this game with examples of games who are fail hardcore. This game has the potential to either be a big success for a long time or fail hardcore. Right now, they are going down the wrong one.
0
sasheriaMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 1Arc User
Any good or service is worth a different value to every consumer. The goal is to maximize profit...if PWE believes that current outrageous prices being purchased by a small percentage of the community is the way to go, more power to them.
However, when you look at the amount of money lost from players who refuse to pay for these services, as well as factoring in loss of player base due to people who leave the game because they feel it is not fair or balanced (see above pay for power, companions, enchant success, etc...) I would have to say their model right now is pretty terrible.
Also, how you personally feel about the zen market and whether or not you think it is fair is irrelevant. The fact remains people are quitting this game every day because it is unpolished, there is a lack of endgame content (pretty much only thing to do at endgame is CN exploit runs), Gauntlygrym is garbage, and the zen market is insane.
If you believe that these are not issues, or you think PWE / Cryptic should be given a break because the game is new, that is your personal opinion, continue on playing the game and enjoy.
The gaming community is unfortunately flooded with products, and the hard truth is that if your game sucks or has terrible prices I'll go play one that doesn't.
We can assume that. Now, I'm not an employee of PWE/Cryptic so I do NOT know their internal finances and decision making. We can assume the suits are just looking at profit (how much it cost vs how much they are making)
The players can argue with each other until we are blue in the face over prices, BUT it seems that the suits (not the devs) decide to lower SOME prices of items to maximized their profit. While others items are expensive, people MUST be buying them because those are not lowered. We don't have any internal metric they are using.
From a player perspective, it seems quite high (I bought the pack so I'm set for life) but if it is too high, PWE would have drop the price by now.
As for Power argument, I personally don't think NW is selling power directly. To me, Power is what makes me more "powerful" that CANNOT BE ATTAIN by playing free. That is the key.
To me, selling power would be like cannot get mass heal spell unless I spend $10 to unlock it. EVEN if it was a scroll that is BoE that I can sell on the market, it is selling power.
Enhancement and ward can be earn via in game AND purchase online. As long both group can access it, it is not selling power IMO.
While I agree that the store could use some improvements, some of the posters need to get out more. While, yes, there are better companies running cash shops out there (although few of them let you earn cash currency in-game like you can here), there are also companies that are orders of magnitude more abusive.
Aeria Games for example. Was bored waiting for NWO to come out, so I decided to observe the absurd spectacle and try out their new-at-the-time gratuitous-booby MMO. Not only was it a content-light (almost no story, not enough quest content to get you through the levels past ~15, massive traditional-Korean-MMO repeat grinding), but their cash shop was crazy. Almost everything people really wanted (fancy mounts, costumes, permanent storage, etc) available in different lottery boxes (up to $5 each). As mentioned, basic storage upgrades - bank and bag - are temporary. Lots of buff items in the cash shop. All the pet upgrades - including crazy powerful ones - only in the cash shop and untradeable (things like much faster regen of HP/MP/action points, up to $15-30). The signature aspect of the game (your characters can get naked! :rolleyes:), $20.
Oh, and the weekly "ladder" bonus events (spend enough in the cash shop to climb the "ladder" to various $ totals, get a prize! With the ladders going up to $100-150-200. That's right, to get the "best" prize, spend $100+ in a single weekend. And a new ladder every week. And you might have to do it several times in a weekend, if the "top" prize is a random chance and you didn't get the one you wanted. Assuming you're insane.)
Eventually, they heard people's complaints about "why are costumes and permanent storage only in random lottery boxes?!?" and put out a package that had a costume, a perm inventory, and a perm bank bag..... for the low price of $200.
And there's been more like that ever since. (I pop in to their forums once in awhile to see how hilariously bad things are. )
Most of those games dont become mainstay, long term MMOs which last a decade. THey come into the scene, grab as much money from a small number of big spenders as they can in a short amount of time, and then disappear as soon as people get bored with a game that is mostly pay to win. If this is what is being referred to as "getting out more" I'll pass, as will anyone who wants to PLAY an MMO, rather than PAY being the single best way to succeed.
This is the reason people compare their specific experiences in mainstay MMOs to what happens here. WOW may not be a game worth playing to some folks, but there are some things it does right. Same with DDO, LOTRO, EQ, Vanguard, or any other game that had its hayday. There are things these newer games can learn from those games even if people dont play them any more.
And the sad part is, enough people still use them enough to make a profit/give them no reason to improve prices. There were people reporting that they spent up to $4000 in the first month. It's crazy. But as long as there are enough crazy folks with way too much money on their hands and no impulse control? Doesn't matter if 95% of your players hate the prices, those other ones will make you a profit. (especially in the more niche games that'll never have a very large population and don't have much in the way of development costs. Like Aeria's string of throw-away import games.)
This is why pay to win has basically separated itself as another completely different genre of game. A small amount of wallet elite can generate profits by paying into a game to become "the best" at that game - which is why people who want to PLAY the game end up avoiding it like the plague. I dont even think of those as MMOs, I think of them as the next step in social games. Everyone looks like a super model and is as scantly clad as possible. Most of the uniqueness is built into different looks for the character. Its like farmville meets reality TV.
If the items are overpriced as is being maintained here, this will result in low sales. When this causes the revenue from sales to drop too low, PW will lower prices in an attempt to increase their revenue. When they feel they have set the price at a point where they will maximize profits from sales the prices will become stable. It will simply take time for the prices to adjust.
This assumes PWE is actually intelligent enough to realize making the cash shop inclusive is a better moneymaker than anything else. They could go the Games Workshop way and increase prices, banking on "hardcore" demographics to carry their profit margin.
If this is what is being referred to as "getting out more" I'll pass,
Yeah, I was mostly targeting that comment at the people (in this and other previous threads) who talk about PWE/NWO's cash shop as the most horrible implementation of such a thing that they've seen. /shrug
Yeah, I was mostly targeting that comment at the people (in this and other previous threads) who walk about PWE/NWO's cash shop as the most horrible implementation of such a thing that they've seen. /shrug
I dont think it's the most horrible. But other's being more horrible doesn't lessen this one's bad nature, doesn't make it any more fair priced or reasonable. It doesn't make this less of an issue, obviously, to many.
0
dirtyhookMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Comments
Gives games a 3-5 year lifespan and involves a lot of (their idea of) microtransactions. They are a publisher, they are not interested in longevity.
me, I count them as macros.
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
I'd wager it is because originally creating the items wasn't free and maintaining the game also has a decent price tag. The initial price of any item is = $/hr x man hours. They then have to make back the initial cost and have it yield a profit on that item. Without profit there is no point. Doing things for cost is bad business.
I have always been of the mind set of putting prices lower in hopes of attracting a more diverse customer base instead of hoping to net one or two big spenders. With that said here in NW you have to keep in mind that if they drastically lowered the prices without removing the AD-Zen conversions they would never make any money on any of the lower priced items. Prices are set high with the conversion in mind. I assume they don't expect you to drop 10 bucks a bag. It is more likely expect you do drop $5 and a bunch of AD bought Zen.
The point about selling power is very valued, Once you give someone an REAL unfair advantage of others for money (Pay To Win) everyone else will tell you to get ducked
The second great point separating paying and non-paying players. I remember when BF3 did that with premium I bought the game then paid premium came out others could use premium to skip the server queues on us non premium players. I left the game that day so did many other PC users.
Long story short the more someone tries to squeeze me for money the less I will pay. If you let me decide and give me a far go I will buy stuff out of wanting to support the game
| NeverWinter Meme's | Kevrlet's Guide to Gauntlgrym |
Content locking was the reason I couldn't stand DDO. Buying Dungeons was just unacceptable to me.
I just had to quote this. +9000
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_surplus
Any good or service is worth a different value to every consumer. The goal is to maximize profit...if PWE believes that current outrageous prices being purchased by a small percentage of the community is the way to go, more power to them.
However, when you look at the amount of money lost from players who refuse to pay for these services, as well as factoring in loss of player base due to people who leave the game because they feel it is not fair or balanced (see above pay for power, companions, enchant success, etc...) I would have to say their model right now is pretty terrible.
Also, how you personally feel about the zen market and whether or not you think it is fair is irrelevant. The fact remains people are quitting this game every day because it is unpolished, there is a lack of endgame content (pretty much only thing to do at endgame is CN exploit runs), Gauntlygrym is garbage, and the zen market is insane.
If you believe that these are not issues, or you think PWE / Cryptic should be given a break because the game is new, that is your personal opinion, continue on playing the game and enjoy.
The gaming community is unfortunately flooded with products, and the hard truth is that if your game sucks or has terrible prices I'll go play one that doesn't.
A wiser investment btw is to buy character slots. You can have leadership missions running 24/7, and more invokes. It costs nothing to transfer AD across an account. Once you have 3 or 4 characters at leadership 12+, you can bring in an extra 100k/week with minimal effort. Now you can throw down the $ you think is fair for the bag and make the rest by just pressing CTR I and doing some leadership missions.
Mmmh I would strongly disagree if it wasn't for the primary point you made about the Ward cost 1000 zen each($10 real money) 2 Enchantment slots for full sets main hand and armor that's at least $20s alone if you don't want to upgrade the enchantments even further... this potential for spending a lot of money for the "best gear" kinda worries me.
| NeverWinter Meme's | Kevrlet's Guide to Gauntlgrym |
This.
I think most people who try to argue that this game is in no way p2w tend to miss the "small" issue of end game enchants. Maybe they dont run t2, maybe they spam emotes in the Moonstone Mask, I dont know.
To me, zen "safe" enchanting to max is p2w. To me, being able to zen buy max speed mounts is (pvp, compared to others) p2w, or at the very least "pay 2 get something a hell of alot faster and easier, bypassing heavy grind". Since people at first got max speed mounts long before people could save up ingame for one, that WAS an advantage, plain and simple.
There are several examples like this, and NW being f2p or not seem to make alot of people sensitive and butt hurt. But hard to deny the simple fact regarding enchants.
Aeria Games for example. Was bored waiting for NWO to come out, so I decided to observe the absurd spectacle and try out their new-at-the-time gratuitous-booby MMO. Not only was it a content-light (almost no story, not enough quest content to get you through the levels past ~15, massive traditional-Korean-MMO repeat grinding), but their cash shop was crazy. Almost everything people really wanted (fancy mounts, costumes, permanent storage, etc) available in different lottery boxes (up to $5 each). As mentioned, basic storage upgrades - bank and bag - are temporary. Lots of buff items in the cash shop. All the pet upgrades - including crazy powerful ones - only in the cash shop and untradeable (things like much faster regen of HP/MP/action points, up to $15-30). The signature aspect of the game (your characters can get naked! :rolleyes:), $20.
Oh, and the weekly "ladder" bonus events (spend enough in the cash shop to climb the "ladder" to various $ totals, get a prize! With the ladders going up to $100-150-200. That's right, to get the "best" prize, spend $100+ in a single weekend. And a new ladder every week. And you might have to do it several times in a weekend, if the "top" prize is a random chance and you didn't get the one you wanted. Assuming you're insane.)
Eventually, they heard people's complaints about "why are costumes and permanent storage only in random lottery boxes?!?" and put out a package that had a costume, a perm inventory, and a perm bank bag..... for the low price of $200.
And there's been more like that ever since. (I pop in to their forums once in awhile to see how hilariously bad things are.
And the sad part is, enough people still use them enough to make a profit/give them no reason to improve prices. There were people reporting that they spent up to $4000 in the first month. It's crazy. But as long as there are enough crazy folks with way too much money on their hands and no impulse control? Doesn't matter if 95% of your players hate the prices, those other ones will make you a profit. (especially in the more niche games that'll never have a very large population and don't have much in the way of development costs. Like Aeria's string of throw-away import games.)
We can assume that. Now, I'm not an employee of PWE/Cryptic so I do NOT know their internal finances and decision making. We can assume the suits are just looking at profit (how much it cost vs how much they are making)
The players can argue with each other until we are blue in the face over prices, BUT it seems that the suits (not the devs) decide to lower SOME prices of items to maximized their profit. While others items are expensive, people MUST be buying them because those are not lowered. We don't have any internal metric they are using.
From a player perspective, it seems quite high (I bought the pack so I'm set for life) but if it is too high, PWE would have drop the price by now.
As for Power argument, I personally don't think NW is selling power directly. To me, Power is what makes me more "powerful" that CANNOT BE ATTAIN by playing free. That is the key.
To me, selling power would be like cannot get mass heal spell unless I spend $10 to unlock it. EVEN if it was a scroll that is BoE that I can sell on the market, it is selling power.
Enhancement and ward can be earn via in game AND purchase online. As long both group can access it, it is not selling power IMO.
Please review my campaign and I'll return the favor.
Most of those games dont become mainstay, long term MMOs which last a decade. THey come into the scene, grab as much money from a small number of big spenders as they can in a short amount of time, and then disappear as soon as people get bored with a game that is mostly pay to win. If this is what is being referred to as "getting out more" I'll pass, as will anyone who wants to PLAY an MMO, rather than PAY being the single best way to succeed.
This is the reason people compare their specific experiences in mainstay MMOs to what happens here. WOW may not be a game worth playing to some folks, but there are some things it does right. Same with DDO, LOTRO, EQ, Vanguard, or any other game that had its hayday. There are things these newer games can learn from those games even if people dont play them any more.
This is why pay to win has basically separated itself as another completely different genre of game. A small amount of wallet elite can generate profits by paying into a game to become "the best" at that game - which is why people who want to PLAY the game end up avoiding it like the plague. I dont even think of those as MMOs, I think of them as the next step in social games. Everyone looks like a super model and is as scantly clad as possible. Most of the uniqueness is built into different looks for the character. Its like farmville meets reality TV.
This assumes PWE is actually intelligent enough to realize making the cash shop inclusive is a better moneymaker than anything else. They could go the Games Workshop way and increase prices, banking on "hardcore" demographics to carry their profit margin.
Hammerfist Clan. Jump into the Night: NW-DMXWRYTAD
THIS!!!!
With ANY game I play, as soon as I see it going the way of Play-2-Win... I'm outta there!
Yeah, I was mostly targeting that comment at the people (in this and other previous threads) who talk about PWE/NWO's cash shop as the most horrible implementation of such a thing that they've seen. /shrug
I dont think it's the most horrible. But other's being more horrible doesn't lessen this one's bad nature, doesn't make it any more fair priced or reasonable. It doesn't make this less of an issue, obviously, to many.
http://www.cadred.org/Images/Gallery/Originals/5671_i-cv2d9w4-l.jpg
Thread won.